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4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List V3

Discussion in 'News' started by Liberation, Mar 1, 2017.

Liberation, Mar 1, 2017 at 6:14 PM
  1. Liberation

    Expand Collapse
    6th Heaven

    • Moderator
    Aug 18, 2013
    v3 2.png

    As a fighting game's meta progresses, it is common to see tier lists being formed, often as a reference towards a character's tournament viability. The Smash community has done this for all games, with all of them having regularly updated tier lists.

    As a disclaimer, the Smash for Wii U Backroom (4BR) acknowledges the fact that tier lists are not always accurate, and are, more often than not, controversial. However, we do want to study the game at an advanced level, and give our take on the current meta of Smash for Wii U, adding another snapshot to the history of the game.

    The Smash community has expanded its horizons in the past few months. Be it through new circuits, more sponsors, more prominent content creators, or simply more competition appearing, the game has continued to evolve, and shows few signs of slowing down. With that forward out of the way, I'm happy to introduce to you the 4BR Official Smash for Wii U Tier List V3.

    After the conclusion of Genesis 4, we asked 4BR members to distribute all characters in the game (with a handful of exceptions) across a number of tiers, with each voter having the ability to choose as many tiers as they wanted, and to order characters in their tiers if they so choose. Players were to assume that the most recent version of the game was being played (Version 1.1.6) and that customs were off. As with previous votes, we reached out to correspondents from outside of the 4BR to give their input and partake in this project.

    In regards to characters, the following criteria was specified:
    • Dark Pit and Pit were to be treated as a single character. Previous votes showed that a hypermajority of voters would keep them side by side, and, while there are blatant differences between the two characters (as well as a general conception of one of the Pits being superior), the amount of overlap in their kits allows for almost identical usage, something that does not apply to any other character pair in Smash for Wii U.
    • Lucina was optional, but was not treated the same as Marth. Due to the low usage of her in tournaments, many voters have stated prior that they don't really know where to place her; rather than have voters "guess", we decided to make her optional. As only 7 did not vote for her, she was placed onto the main tier list.
    • Miis were optional, and could be voted on in one of two ways. These reflect the two most common rulings of Mii Fighters seen at tournaments: 1111 Guest Size (using the initial special moves Miis have), and XXXX Guest Size (being able to select any combination of special moves one desires for Miis). At this current time, the 4BR acknowledges the discrepancy in Mii rulings, and, given internal feedback and discussion, we choose to respect both options through this ruling.
    For an example, here is my vote. I ordered characters within each tier, and included Lucina.
    S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik::4mario::4fox::4marth:
    A: :4sonic::4mewtwo::rosalina::4zss::4ryu::4metaknight::4villager::4corrin::4pikachu::4tlink:
    B: :4greninja::4lucina::4olimar::4megaman::4peach::4luigi::4ness::4falcon::4dk::4lucas::4lucario:
    C: :4palutena::4link::4bowser::4shulk::4wario::4pit::4rob::4yoshi::4robinm:
    D: :4duckhunt::4myfriends::4gaw::4charizard::4kirby::4littlemac::4feroy::4drmario::4pacman:
    E: :4samus::4wiifit::4dedede::4falco::4bowserjr::4zelda::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:

    We had voting run until February 20th, the week of Frostbite 2017, meaning that submissions were possible for a little less than a month; please note that Frostbite 2017 is not taken into account as a result. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 45 votes, including 25 US votes, and 20 international votes.

    The following people submitted a vote (for those without a Smashboards account, Twitter handles have been listed instead):

    As per our tier lists, we will not publicly release individual votes, but voters are free to share their votes with the public.


    Thanks to @Shaya, we were able to generate rankings on two factors from the submitted votes: average placements and average groupings (or tiers). In addition, standard deviations for each of these values, and the placement differences from v2 to v3 have been included, with the merging of the Pits' placement accounted for.

    Character Ordered Score Standard Deviation Group Score Group Standard Deviation Difference from v2.0
    1 Bayonetta 2.0 1.35 7.94 0.227 +10
    2 Diddy Kong 2.3 0.991 7.95 0.211 -1
    3 Cloud 3.31 1.443 7.77 0.438 -1
    4 Sheik 4.22 1.988 7.62 0.564 -1
    5 Sonic 5.63 2.257 7.35 0.608 +1
    6 Mario 6.59 1.936 7.25 0.614 -1
    7 Fox 7.06 1.904 7.17 0.667 ±0
    8 Rosalina 8.61 2.635 7.01 0.678 -4
    9 Mewtwo 9.17 2.039 6.89 0.615 +1
    10 Marth 9.73 2.822 6.81 0.662 +9
    11 Zero Suit Samus 9.86 2.099 6.74 0.594 -3
    12 Ryu 12.4 2.758 6.51 0.766 -3
    13 Corrin 15.06 3.691 6.0 0.808 +5
    14 Meta Knight 15.39 3.046 5.82 0.717 -1
    15 Pikachu 17.67 4.67 5.83 0.734 -3
    16 Mega Man 17.7 4.126 5.62 0.556 -1
    17 Villager 18.2 3.22 5.66 0.609 -3
    18 Lucina 18.78 5.992 5.67 0.841 +18
    19 Lucario 20.23 5.581 5.4 0.741 +3
    20 Toon Link 20.84 3.874 5.33 0.654 -3
    21 Peach 22.79 4.303 5.14 0.791 +5
    22 Greninja 23.52 4.657 5.08 0.569 -1
    23 Captain Falcon 23.61 4.608 5.11 0.801 -3
    24 Ness 24.82 5.534 4.95 0.748 -8
    25 Bowser 25.0 5.46 4.87 0.807 +7
    26 Luigi 25.69 5.669 4.86 0.846 +3
    27 Olimar 25.82 7.005 4.76 1.01 +4
    28 Donkey Kong 26.63 4.32 4.71 0.644 -3
    29 Yoshi 28.26 4.968 4.6 0.891 -6
    30 Pit [Dark Pit] 28.69 6.021 4.52 0.825 -6 [-3]
    31 Lucas 30.12 4.659 4.35 0.814 +1
    32 R.O.B. 30.34 4.799 4.28 0.949 -5
    33 Robin 30.64 5.555 4.22 0.782 -4
    34 Ike 35.04 4.111 3.68 0.812 ±0
    35 Wario 36.77 5.097 3.62 1.004 -2
    36 Duck Hunt 37.09 6.539 3.42 0.917 +5
    37 Shulk 37.31 5.894 3.47 0.871 +6
    38 Link 38.59 4.908 3.37 0.842 +4
    39 Mr. Game & Watch 39.18 5.54 3.29 0.972 -3
    40 Samus 40.3 5.563 2.94 1.135 +4
    41 Palutena 40.64 4.971 2.94 0.837 -2
    42 Little Mac 42.0 4.461 2.87 0.911 -4
    43 Roy 42.59 5.43 2.86 0.979 +6
    44 Charizard 42.87 5.45 2.84 0.994 +6
    45 Pac-Man 44.39 5.608 2.66 1.048 -8
    46 Kirby 44.51 4.777 2.65 0.989 -6
    47 Bowser Jr. 45.51 5.31 2.5 1.094 -1
    48 Wii Fit Trainer 45.61 4.496 2.4 0.821 -3
    49 Falco 45.68 4.059 2.39 0.829 -1
    50 Dr. Mario 47.09 4.542 2.26 0.839 -3
    51 King Dedede 50.0 2.991 1.71 0.859 ±0
    52 Ganondorf 51.67 2.364 1.46 0.655 +3
    53 Mii Gunner 51.75 2.537 1.69 0.533 -1
    54 Zelda 51.93 2.531 1.43 0.579 ±0
    55 Mii Brawler 52.14 3.27 1.73 1.006 -2
    56 Mii Swordsman 52.5 5.099 1.61 0.629 ±0
    57 Jigglypuff 53.64 1.459 1.18 0.356 ±0

    A low standard deviation indicates that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), whereas a higher standard deviation indicates disagreement in the character's placement. The top and bottom tiers tend to have lower values of standard deviation, whereas the mid tiers tend to have higher values.

    By simultaneously taking order and tiers (or groupings) under the same vote, this allowed us to have a basis for the general order of characters, as well as a baseline to decide our tier separations. While a few instances of grouping caused minimal discrepancies, order was given priority.

    We ended up taking a mixture of intervals, gaps and integer scoring to decide cutoffs for each character, based on their group score. Here are the following intervals for each of our tiers, as well as the specific tier classifications:
    S: 7.94 - 7.62
    A: 7.35 - 6.51
    B: 6.0 - 5.08
    C: 4.95 - 4.52
    D: 4.35 - 3.29
    E: 2.94 - 2.26
    F: 1.71 - 1.18

    Top Tier: 7.94 - 6.51 - Tiers S & A
    High Tier: 6.0 - 5.08 - Tier B
    Mid Tier: 4.95 - 3.29 - Tiers C & D
    Low Tier: 2.94 - 1.18 - TIers E & F

    The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.

    With our methods and data accounted for, we're happy to present to you...

    Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

    S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
    A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
    B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
    C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
    D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
    E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
    F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:

    Text Version

    S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
    A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
    B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
    C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
    D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
    E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
    F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

    Graphic Version

    smash 4 backroom tier list v3 2.png

    As noted prior, Lucina and the Mii Fighters were optional votes. Here, we will briefly discuss the results of those 4 characters:
    • Lucina: 38 of the 45 voters included Lucina (as a result, she was placed onto the main tier list and the image). She ended up having the 4th highest standard deviation of all characters.
    • Miis: 10 of the 45 voters included Miis, of either ruleset. While we did not collect enough data to list XXXX Guest Size Miis, we did collect enough to place 1111 Guest Miis onto the list, resulting in the full list:
    S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
    A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
    B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
    C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
    D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
    E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
    F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4miigun::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miisword::4jigglypuff:


    The end of Genesis 4 marked the true end of the second year of Smash for Wii U's competitive history, but also the beginning of an exciting new chapter. Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik and Diddy find themselves at the top 4 slots for this game, and other characters have earned their spot in the top tier, such as Marth, Ryu and Zero Suit Samus. Even high tier characters, including Lucario, Greninja and Mega Man, have been making strong cases for their viability as well. With patches seemingly finished and the potentiality of the Switch affecting Smash for Wii U's meta, there is an interesting air of ambiguity in addition to the growing presence Smash for Wii U has in competitive gaming. The 2017 Summer of Smash is already lining up with many events, and it will surely be filled to the brim with new players, more characters, and more national-level spectacles.

    What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

    Special thanks goes to Shaya for processing data and results; Camalange, Marc, Shaya, and Jucchan for assisting with the collection of correspondent votes; and A10theHero for editing. Lastly, I'd like to thank everyone else, including the voters, for their time and input into this project. It was a genuine honor to lead the project alongside Shaya for its third iteration and to work with many people to get this out to the public!
4BR Correspondent
Tournament organizer, competitor and one of the leaders of the Smash 4 Backroom, Liberation has been an member of the Smash community for some time now. While he's primarily a Smash 4 & Rivals of Aether player, he dabbles in many fighting games and other genres. Follow his adventures on Twitter.
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Discussion in 'News' started by Liberation, Mar 1, 2017.

    1. Dapplegonger
      How is Bayonetta ranked above Diddy Kong when she has a group score of 7.94 while Diddy has a group score of 7.95?
      mr.cartoon likes this.
    2. Liberation
      We take two scores with a vote, one for groups (tiers) and ordering of characters. Group scores are used for creating tiers, while order decides character order.

      Regardless of the group score, order is maintained for the final release.
      ShinyLegendary, mr.cartoon and Shaya like this.
    3. ARGHETH
      And let the complaining about Corrin begin
    4. DiamondJoyride
      Happy to see Sonic finally take his rightful place among the Top 5.

      Lucina, however, I can't think of a single thing that she's done to deserve a High Tier spot. Also, Palutena has done very little since CEO. Should be much lower.
      Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    5. Bakabridget
      Nice tier list, it's almost as good as event hubs'
      Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
      Ramz289, Keeseman, Floor and 15 others like this.
    6. Aegislasher
      Oh this is going to be fun to watch play out. I can already hear people complaining about Bayo being on top and ZSS not being top 10.

      Edit: Also Corrin being in the top 15.
      Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
      L9999 likes this.
    7. zeldasmash
      Shulk above Link I dunno. Pretty good overall, though.
      mr.cartoon likes this.
    8. Abat Wolf
      Abat Wolf
      I like how Roy was bumped up from bottom 10. I really do. But have you seen Hyper Kirby play? Roy deserves to be mid tier at the very least tbh.
    9. Floor
      Smashboards showing once again how irrelevant it is to the heart of the community. Worse than the second one for sure
    10. Samuelwisebaggins
      What has Corrin done to justify being at the top of high tier? Almost every other character in high tier is better.

      Other than that, it looks pretty good. Better than v2 at least.
    11. Mythra
      Memba when Marth was nearing the bottom of the tier when Smash came out?
      He climbed once again to glory.:marthmelee::marth::4marth:

      Praise da buffs.
      Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
    12. bboss
      Finally Bayonetta where she is supposed to be.
    13. Dream Cancel
      Dream Cancel
      "'X' character does/doesn't have the results to justify their placement!"


      Please read what actually goes into a tier list. Results are only part of the equation.
      Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    14. Ki11erpenguin
      Love this tier list, one of the best ive seen in a while!

      Im happy to see my main (Corrin) getting good recognition in top 15. Only things i'd change is put Link, Doc, and Roy slightly higher, but other than that its REALLY good

      EDIT: also, despite what Ally thinks, I believe that Mario deserves that top 5 spot over Sonic
      Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    15. DunnoBro
      This list looks fine, sheik is probably a bit high but she has good rep and legacy so it's understandable.
    16. Combo Wombo
      Combo Wombo
      Bye guys I'll be on eventhubs.

      First of all bayonetta isn't even top 5. Learn the mu. She's light and has a bad neutral game. She also needs to hit a move to start a combo. Combining this with her bad neutral adds up to a top 15 high tier character. Witch time is good. Nuff said.

      Why is Luigi so low? He has a great combo game and a pretty easy time killing.

      Corrin may be a little too high but whatever

      Lastly, why is the OFFICIAL tier list decided by 45 people? I feel like as much of the community as possible should be able to contribute. If every person who voted had a different main, there still would be characters left over. No Luigi mains voted. Not seeing any bayo mains either. Funny isn't it.

      Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2017
      Kalierdarke, APairOfBeats and Floor like this.
    17. Zero Soul
      Zero Soul
      :zelda::jigglypuff::ganondorf: are still waiting to leave the unholy lands of Bottom Tier. Life is cruel.
    18. Lola Luftnagle
      Lola Luftnagle
      See there, what'd I tell y'all? :4marth: started out low-tier but the buffs he had been blessed with has put him back in top tiers where he belongs.

      That said, I pity the placements of :4miibrawl:, :4miigun:, and :4miisword: more than before...
      mr.cartoon likes this.
    19. mikael fernandes
      mikael fernandes
      Corrin's and Lucina's placement are just cringe-worthy
      Jalil and DiamondJoyride like this.
    20. Metallinatus
      Finally one I can mostly agree with....
      I still think Kirby is highly underestimated.
      xzx likes this.
    21. JayE
      Oh boy.
      Tier lists are always interesting.
      ShinyLegendary likes this.
    22. Sleepy ッ
      Sleepy ッ
      I like how you don't change TL's spot, very smart decision. I can see him rise when Hyuga returns. Also I like seeing Marth in high tier again! :) Mid tier Ness is a bad sign though... :(

      actually nvm **** this tier list pikachu is in the same tier as corrin and ****ing lucina
      Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2017
    23. Floor
      I know right? Corrin can drop a few and Lucina is ridicously low!
      Kaze Arashi likes this.
    24. Sleepy ッ
      Sleepy ッ
      you realise that eventhubs has luigi at 29? that's even worse than this one. and that they have corrin at 13, borderline high tier?

      Also whoever talks about Bayonetta like that has never been Witch Time'd or offstage with her. Top 2, Cloud is the best imo
    25. pichuplayer
      Not a bad list by any means for sure my biggest disagreement would be Corrin and Lucina to high but the rest is just minor nitpicks really
    26. Rizen
      Aside from a few nitpicks like :4ryu: and :4corrin: being a bit high and :4luigi: being too low, this list looks pretty good. It's nice to finally see :4link: in lower-mid tier where he belongs :)
    27. Linkip
      Really, Bayonetta isn't top 5? I can't be bothered getting into that. Just, combos. Also i'm pretty sure there is 3 Bayo mains. ぱみゅ, Aerolink and Liberation are all Bayo mains. As for Luigi, he could go a little higher but he hasn't had really good results or anything. Sure Elegant got 13th at like 2 tournaments but ConCon is pretty much dead.
      And the official tier list isn't decided by the entire smash community because then people like you could vote. :glare:
    28. DMWN
      Waited all of February for this, very disappointed
    29. pichuplayer
      Yeah that sounds about right and nice to see DH in Mid as well
      Rizen likes this.
    30. Parsec
      Can we get an image without T&C in the background? It makes reading the graphic much harder than it should be. The purple from the 4BR logo would make a nice background.
    31. Eureka
    32. tonterr
      I mean, they're practically equal on the tier list
      mr.cartoon and Rizen like this.
    33. menardi
    34. AABattery
      This list does seem pretty accurate, just some nitpicks about certain placings though:
      • :4mario: should be above:4sonic:
      • I think :4wario: should be low tier at this point
      • :4ness: should be below :4bowser:,:4luigi:, and :4olimar:
      • :4palutena: should be at the bottom of mid tier in my opinion
      • Probably the one I'm the least sure about, but :4cloud: shouldn't be top 3, top 10 for sure, but definitely not top 3 in the game.
    35. -Voltron-
      Zero, the best player in the world, has said several times he thinks bayonetta is the best character in the game, but I'm sure you know much more than him.
      Stiga, Lazlo_Bananas and mr.cartoon like this.
    36. arbustopachon
      Zard's finally out of bottom 10!

      Can't wait for Samus to finally become mid tier and Falco to finally fall into bottom tier.
      mr.cartoon likes this.
    37. Blueberry Kong
      Blueberry Kong
      DK and Bowser should be moved to the bottom of C tier. They can get totally **** on by many characters, especially when thye know the matchup. See Nairo's Bowser vs. Komorikiri in crews. Komorikiri knew how to abuse Bowser. Also watch ZeRo vs. Tweek in grand finals. ZeRo made DK look like he had no options for anything. Other than that, tier list lookin pretty good.
      mr.cartoon and Man Li Gi like this.
    38. Rashyboy05
      "This tier list sucks because my main isn't in X spot!!!!"

      This tier is alright to me. I do think Ryu, Corrin and Greninja is a bit too high while DK and Bowser is a bit too low. Also, seeing Ike in the lower end of mid tier when he was considered the best FE character two years ago is a bit tragic.
    39. MarioMeteor
      This is much better than the last one. The only two things I don't agree with are Bayonetta being #1 and Jigglypuff being dead last.
      This man speaks the truth. Even the world is against him, Roy will always and forever be our boy.
      Kalierdarke likes this.

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