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4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List V3

v3 2.png

As a fighting game's meta progresses, it is common to see tier lists being formed, often as a reference towards a character's tournament viability. The Smash community has done this for all games, with all of them having regularly updated tier lists.

As a disclaimer, the Smash for Wii U Backroom (4BR) acknowledges the fact that tier lists are not always accurate, and are, more often than not, controversial. However, we do want to study the game at an advanced level, and give our take on the current meta of Smash for Wii U, adding another snapshot to the history of the game.

The Smash community has expanded its horizons in the past few months. Be it through new circuits, more sponsors, more prominent content creators, or simply more competition appearing, the game has continued to evolve, and shows few signs of slowing down. With that forward out of the way, I'm happy to introduce to you the 4BR Official Smash for Wii U Tier List V3.

Procedure
After the conclusion of Genesis 4, we asked 4BR members to distribute all characters in the game (with a handful of exceptions) across a number of tiers, with each voter having the ability to choose as many tiers as they wanted, and to order characters in their tiers if they so choose. Players were to assume that the most recent version of the game was being played (Version 1.1.6) and that customs were off. As with previous votes, we reached out to correspondents from outside of the 4BR to give their input and partake in this project.

In regards to characters, the following criteria was specified:
  • Dark Pit and Pit were to be treated as a single character. Previous votes showed that a hypermajority of voters would keep them side by side, and, while there are blatant differences between the two characters (as well as a general conception of one of the Pits being superior), the amount of overlap in their kits allows for almost identical usage, something that does not apply to any other character pair in Smash for Wii U.
  • Lucina was optional, but was not treated the same as Marth. Due to the low usage of her in tournaments, many voters have stated prior that they don't really know where to place her; rather than have voters "guess", we decided to make her optional. As only 7 did not vote for her, she was placed onto the main tier list.
  • Miis were optional, and could be voted on in one of two ways. These reflect the two most common rulings of Mii Fighters seen at tournaments: 1111 Guest Size (using the initial special moves Miis have), and XXXX Guest Size (being able to select any combination of special moves one desires for Miis). At this current time, the 4BR acknowledges the discrepancy in Mii rulings, and, given internal feedback and discussion, we choose to respect both options through this ruling.
For an example, here is my vote. I ordered characters within each tier, and included Lucina.
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik::4mario::4fox::4marth:
A: :4sonic::4mewtwo::rosalina::4zss::4ryu::4metaknight::4villager::4corrin::4pikachu::4tlink:
B: :4greninja::4lucina::4olimar::4megaman::4peach::4luigi::4ness::4falcon::4dk::4lucas::4lucario:
C: :4palutena::4link::4bowser::4shulk::4wario::4pit::4rob::4yoshi::4robinm:
D: :4duckhunt::4myfriends::4gaw::4charizard::4kirby::4littlemac::4feroy::4drmario::4pacman:
E: :4samus::4wiifit::4dedede::4falco::4bowserjr::4zelda::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:

We had voting run until February 20th, the week of Frostbite 2017, meaning that submissions were possible for a little less than a month; please note that Frostbite 2017 is not taken into account as a result. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 45 votes, including 25 US votes, and 20 international votes.

The following people submitted a vote (for those without a Smashboards account, Twitter handles have been listed instead):

As per our tier lists, we will not publicly release individual votes, but voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Shaya, we were able to generate rankings on two factors from the submitted votes: average placements and average groupings (or tiers). In addition, standard deviations for each of these values, and the placement differences from v2 to v3 have been included, with the merging of the Pits' placement accounted for.


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation | Difference from v2.0
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227 | +10
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211 | -1
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438 | -1
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564 | -1
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608 | +1
Mario | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614 | -1
Fox | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667 | ±0
Rosalina | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678 | -4
Mewtwo | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615 | +1
Marth | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662 | +9
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594 | -3
Ryu | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766 | -3
Corrin | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808 | +5
Meta Knight | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717 | -1
Pikachu | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734 | -3
Mega Man | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556 | -1
Villager | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609 | -3
Lucina | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841 | +18
Lucario | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741 | +3
Toon Link | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654 | -3
Peach | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791 | +5
Greninja | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569 | -1
Captain Falcon | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801 | -3
Ness | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748 | -8
Bowser | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807 | +7
Luigi | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846 | +3
Olimar | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01 | +4
Donkey Kong | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644 | -3
Yoshi | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891 | -6
Pit [Dark Pit]| 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825 | -6 [-3]
Lucas | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814 | +1
R.O.B. | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949 | -5
Robin | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782 | -4
Ike | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812 | ±0
Wario | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004 | -2
Duck Hunt | 37.09 | 6.539 | 3.42 | 0.917 | +5
Shulk | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871 | +6
Link | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842 | +4
Mr. Game & Watch | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972 | -3
Samus | 40.3 | 5.563 | 2.94 | 1.135 | +4
Palutena | 40.64 | 4.971 | 2.94 | 0.837 | -2
Little Mac | 42.0 | 4.461 | 2.87 | 0.911 | -4
Roy | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979 | +6
Charizard | 42.87 | 5.45 | 2.84 | 0.994 | +6
Pac-Man | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048 | -8
Kirby | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989 | -6
Bowser Jr. | 45.51 | 5.31 | 2.5 | 1.094 | -1
Wii Fit Trainer | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821 | -3
Falco | 45.68 | 4.059 | 2.39 | 0.829 | -1
Dr. Mario | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839 | -3
King Dedede | 50.0 | 2.991 | 1.71 | 0.859 | ±0
Ganondorf | 51.67 | 2.364 | 1.46 | 0.655 | +3
Mii Gunner | 51.75 | 2.537 | 1.69 | 0.533 | -1
Zelda | 51.93 | 2.531 | 1.43 | 0.579 | ±0
Mii Brawler | 52.14 | 3.27 | 1.73 | 1.006 | -2
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.099 | 1.61 | 0.629 | ±0
Jigglypuff | 53.64 | 1.459 | 1.18 | 0.356 | ±0

A low standard deviation indicates that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), whereas a higher standard deviation indicates disagreement in the character's placement. The top and bottom tiers tend to have lower values of standard deviation, whereas the mid tiers tend to have higher values.

By simultaneously taking order and tiers (or groupings) under the same vote, this allowed us to have a basis for the general order of characters, as well as a baseline to decide our tier separations. While a few instances of grouping caused minimal discrepancies, order was given priority.

We ended up taking a mixture of intervals, gaps and integer scoring to decide cutoffs for each character, based on their group score. Here are the following intervals for each of our tiers, as well as the specific tier classifications:
S: 7.94 - 7.62
A: 7.35 - 6.51
B: 6.0 - 5.08
C: 4.95 - 4.52
D: 4.35 - 3.29
E: 2.94 - 2.26
F: 1.71 - 1.18

Top Tier: 7.94 - 6.51 - Tiers S & A
High Tier: 6.0 - 5.08 - Tier B
Mid Tier: 4.95 - 3.29 - Tiers C & D
Low Tier: 2.94 - 1.18 - TIers E & F

The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.

With our methods and data accounted for, we're happy to present to you...

Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

-TOP-
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
-HIGH-
B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
-MID-
C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
-LOW-
E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:

Text Version

-TOP-
S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
-HIGH-
B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
-MID-
C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
-LOW-
E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

smash 4 backroom tier list v3 2.png

Addendum

As noted prior, Lucina and the Mii Fighters were optional votes. Here, we will briefly discuss the results of those 4 characters:
  • Lucina: 38 of the 45 voters included Lucina (as a result, she was placed onto the main tier list and the image). She ended up having the 4th highest standard deviation of all characters.
  • Miis: 10 of the 45 voters included Miis, of either ruleset. While we did not collect enough data to list XXXX Guest Size Miis, we did collect enough to place 1111 Guest Miis onto the list, resulting in the full list:
-TOP-
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
-HIGH-
B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
-MID-
C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
-LOW-
E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4miigun::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miisword::4jigglypuff:

Conclusions

The end of Genesis 4 marked the true end of the second year of Smash for Wii U's competitive history, but also the beginning of an exciting new chapter. Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik and Diddy find themselves at the top 4 slots for this game, and other characters have earned their spot in the top tier, such as Marth, Ryu and Zero Suit Samus. Even high tier characters, including Lucario, Greninja and Mega Man, have been making strong cases for their viability as well. With patches seemingly finished and the potentiality of the Switch affecting Smash for Wii U's meta, there is an interesting air of ambiguity in addition to the growing presence Smash for Wii U has in competitive gaming. The 2017 Summer of Smash is already lining up with many events, and it will surely be filled to the brim with new players, more characters, and more national-level spectacles.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya for processing data and results; Camalange, Marc, Shaya, and Jucchan for assisting with the collection of correspondent votes; and A10theHero for editing. Lastly, I'd like to thank everyone else, including the voters, for their time and input into this project. It was a genuine honor to lead the project alongside Shaya for its third iteration and to work with many people to get this out to the public!
 
Gunla

Comments

:4sonic: wrecks :4falco:. Laser and reflector are absolutely useless against :4sonic:. I lost once having never fought against a good :4falco: in my life. :4falco: is terrible, but he has a good Bair.

:018:
Ahh I see now thanks for informing me, nice to see you take part on this to explain a misconception of mine.
 
Is it really that hard to avoid getting Witch Timed? Just (power)shield, grab :4bayonetta:, and you're fine.
it's not just witch time that makes Bayo good though. Plus using the same strategie over and over again can and should be punished hard, especially with the combo potential of Bayo
 
It pains me to see my dear :4ness:outside the high tier, but I probably agree with everything else. Cloud has fewer bad match ups then bayo imo, and id put lucario on top15 (ppl fear the aura).

And people, the tier list is not a rule or even the absolute truth. keep having fun with your mid-low tier main.
 
Good list. Just always put the Miis. We don't need a sapareted list because of Miis. Luigi so low, Corrin too high. But I liked the list overall.
 
D
Is Luigi really too low? I always felt he was Mid Tier at best.
 
Honestly, the meta seems to be developing to the point where we can definitely tell who is solo viable, or just very good. We also can tell some are just absolutely, poorly trash in this game, albeit those characters may have very few but good counterpicks to higher tiers. There's characters on here that we're seeing getting amazing results that we wouldn't have expected. People are just getting their mains optimized even better and top tiers are getting their matchups learned a lot faster than any other characters. I feel like a few in D or E tier could make big jumps in the future.
 
This is a solid tier list. A few characters feel out of place, but overall this is a good list. Definitely better than the second one. (But :4kirby: is way too low)
 
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I remember when people said Bayonetta was dead and look where she is now! Of course they also said that when Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Rosalina, and ZSS got nerfed and they're all doing pretty good too!

Conclusion? The smash community jumps to conclusions on a character's viability too soon.
 
Eh, I think it's really hard to actually rank the top 5; naming them isn't hard, but deciding placement within the top 5 is. They all have really good matchups across the board, but all of them have about even matchups with each other. I personally wouldn't have put Bayonetta as number one, but if you made me pick, I'm not quite sure who to put up there either.
 
Wait, :4yoshi: is below :4dk:? Seems legit.
Actually DK should be higher on here but Yoshis placement is pretty accurate imo. Yoshis awkward recovery landing issues and getting walled are a reason why hes not that high. Not to mention his laggy grab thats slower and has less range than Links especially when dash grabbing. DK has way more potential if you take a look at how Tweek got 1st at a tournament beating Komorikiri and MKleo being a solo DK player at a tournament. Arguably Yoshi may have the same thing but I feel like hes overestimated by a lot of people.
 
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Eh, I think it's really hard to actually rank the top 5; naming them isn't hard, but deciding placement within the top 5 is. They all have really good matchups across the board, but all of them have about even matchups with each other. I personally wouldn't have put Bayonetta as number one, but if you made me pick, I'm not quite sure who to put up there either.
This.

S tier (top 4) is, for the most part, non-debateable. Maybe some people might have some pretty favorable/unfavorable views about 1 character but the top 4 is nearly unanimous: :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4diddy::4sheik: in some order.

Naming 5-10 also is pretty consistent but there's a lot more room where people might have :4zss: where others don't.

To be honest, the order within a tier doesn't matter that much when you look at how balanced this game is. Anyone in top 10 and even top 15 is super viable (perhaps S-B tier). C tier is where you really take the biggest step down in terms of viability
 
I thought :4kirby: was always considered the top of the low tier.

Since Komota netted a win over Ally, Kirby's been getting a little more attention. Personally, I think that he's better than all of the rest of the low tier, except maybe :4samus:. He has a great combo game, he has pretty good kill power, one of the least laggy characters in the game, and some of the better aerials in the game with his D-air and B-air. He has a lot going for him, but his low mobility holds him back.
 
D
In my opinion, the Top 5 would be (in no particular order) Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Mario, and maybe Sonic or Fox. Cloud isn't Top 5 at all.
 
This.

S tier (top 4) is, for the most part, non-debateable. Maybe some people might have some pretty favorable/unfavorable views about 1 character but the top 4 is nearly unanimous: :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4diddy::4sheik: in some order.

Naming 5-10 also is pretty consistent but there's a lot more room where people might have :4zss: where others don't.

To be honest, the order within a tier doesn't matter that much when you look at how balanced this game is. Anyone in top 10 and even top 15 is super viable (perhaps S-B tier). C tier is where you really take the biggest step down in terms of viability
I would argue that even parts of B tier are hard to pull off without a secondary, not impossible, just hard. And while I agree going from B to C is a stark difference I would also say that each and every single character in C has the potential to be classified as high tier.
 
Poor Ness :/
Yeah, I love ness, but he has a lot of bad match ups and a very exploitable recovery, which makes him not reliable in tournaments.
If you gave Ness a whip like Lucas to grab ledges or make ness move faster after being hit by his pk thunder, he would definitely be top 10.

Fow is an artist with ness, check him out on YouTube.
 
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In my opinion, Cloud is better than Bayo. Being a third party spectator, Cloud just seems to be more consistent, as his only real weakness is his recovery. Therefore, your opponent has to outplay you multiple times just to have a chance to exploit this weakness. Bayo, however has multiple weakness; landing lag, neutral, landing hits in general--they're all significant problems. As more people learn the matchup, I can see Bayo dropping and Cloud rising.
 
In my opinion, Cloud is better than Bayo. Being a third party spectator, Cloud just seems to be more consistent, as his only real weakness is his recovery. Therefore, your opponent has to outplay you multiple times just to have a chance to exploit this weakness. Bayo, however has multiple weakness; landing lag, neutral, landing hits in general--they're all significant problems. As more people learn the matchup, I can see Bayo dropping and Cloud rising.
the problem with Cloud rising in the tier list is that he doesn't have a lot of room to grow as a character where as Bayo still has room for her meta game to grow
 
I'm just glad Roy got some respect and got raised a tier, after the slap in the face that was the 18 place drop. Hopefully they'll put the boy back up to where he belongs (mid tier maybe?)
 
Shulk has moved up a little bit, this was done before civil war I presume, so shulk might see a bit of a jump up, hopefully, maybe, Sakurai buffs plz.
 
D
Best tier list of Smash 4 yet.

The S tier is perfect.

I do hope that:4sheik:stays in S tier.

And I hope :4marth:continues to rise in the tier list.
 
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I know this is kind of late but here's my opinion on the tier list.
Doc isn't bottom 5
Roy up, Palu down
Luigi is top 25 at least
Bowser down below DK
Lucario above Lucina
Corrin down, and ZSS up
Those are my only +/- 2 or more changes to it!
 
I'm glad Marth is higher than Zero suit Samus.

I'm glad Lucina is higher than Toon Link.

I'm glad Ike is higher than Wario.

I'm glad Charizard is higher than Ganondorf.

I'm sad Falco is very low.

I'm glad Cloud is still top 10.
 

Attachments

D
This tier list is the best tier of the three tier lists in Smash 4.

Negatives:

:4charizard::4feroy::4kirby::4samus: :4drmario:aren't low tier characters. Lower mid tier at best in my opinion.

:4bowserjr: should be in F tier.

:4robinm:is way too low. Underrated character.

:4falcon:should be higher.

Positives:

:4bayonetta:is where she belongs.

:4marth:is top tier. Probably the best change in the Smash 4 Tier List history.

:4ness:is no longer high tier. Didn't think he'd belong there.

:4link:is in mid tier, where he belonged since Smash 4's release.

:4cloud2:is still S tier.

Overall, really good tier list!
 
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This tier list is the best tier of the three tier lists in Smash 4.

Negatives:

:4charizard::4feroy::4kirby::4samus: :4drmario:aren't low tier characters. Lower mid tier at best in my opinion.

:4bowserjr: should be in F tier.

:4robinm:is way too low. Underrated character.

:4falcon:should be higher.

Positives:

:4bayonetta:is where she belongs.

:4marth:is top tier. Probably the best change in the Smash 4 Tier List history.

:4ness:is no longer high tier. Didn't think he'd belong there.

:4link:is in mid tier, where he belonged since Smash 4's release.

:4cloud2:is still S tier.

Overall, really good tier list!
This thread is basically dead; if you would like you can post it here where people talk constantly every day.

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-171#post-21836470
 
This tier list is the best tier of the three tier lists in Smash 4.

Negatives:

:4charizard::4feroy::4kirby::4samus: :4drmario:aren't low tier characters. Lower mid tier at best in my opinion. What about Falco?

:4bowserjr: should be in F tier. Low playerbase

:4robinm:is way too low. Underrated character. I'm not sure about that

:4falcon:should be higher. Maybe

Positives:

:4bayonetta:is where she belongs. Yes

:4marth:is top tier. Probably the best change in the Smash 4 Tier List history. Thank goodness 1.1.4 exists

:4ness:is no longer high tier. Didn't think he'd belong there. Does bad against Marth.

:4link:is in mid tier, where he belonged since Smash 4's release. Should he be above Ike?

:4cloud2:is still S tier. Cloud my main S tier

Overall, really good tier list!
 
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