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4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List V3

v3 2.png

As a fighting game's meta progresses, it is common to see tier lists being formed, often as a reference towards a character's tournament viability. The Smash community has done this for all games, with all of them having regularly updated tier lists.

As a disclaimer, the Smash for Wii U Backroom (4BR) acknowledges the fact that tier lists are not always accurate, and are, more often than not, controversial. However, we do want to study the game at an advanced level, and give our take on the current meta of Smash for Wii U, adding another snapshot to the history of the game.

The Smash community has expanded its horizons in the past few months. Be it through new circuits, more sponsors, more prominent content creators, or simply more competition appearing, the game has continued to evolve, and shows few signs of slowing down. With that forward out of the way, I'm happy to introduce to you the 4BR Official Smash for Wii U Tier List V3.

Procedure
After the conclusion of Genesis 4, we asked 4BR members to distribute all characters in the game (with a handful of exceptions) across a number of tiers, with each voter having the ability to choose as many tiers as they wanted, and to order characters in their tiers if they so choose. Players were to assume that the most recent version of the game was being played (Version 1.1.6) and that customs were off. As with previous votes, we reached out to correspondents from outside of the 4BR to give their input and partake in this project.

In regards to characters, the following criteria was specified:
  • Dark Pit and Pit were to be treated as a single character. Previous votes showed that a hypermajority of voters would keep them side by side, and, while there are blatant differences between the two characters (as well as a general conception of one of the Pits being superior), the amount of overlap in their kits allows for almost identical usage, something that does not apply to any other character pair in Smash for Wii U.
  • Lucina was optional, but was not treated the same as Marth. Due to the low usage of her in tournaments, many voters have stated prior that they don't really know where to place her; rather than have voters "guess", we decided to make her optional. As only 7 did not vote for her, she was placed onto the main tier list.
  • Miis were optional, and could be voted on in one of two ways. These reflect the two most common rulings of Mii Fighters seen at tournaments: 1111 Guest Size (using the initial special moves Miis have), and XXXX Guest Size (being able to select any combination of special moves one desires for Miis). At this current time, the 4BR acknowledges the discrepancy in Mii rulings, and, given internal feedback and discussion, we choose to respect both options through this ruling.
For an example, here is my vote. I ordered characters within each tier, and included Lucina.
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik::4mario::4fox::4marth:
A: :4sonic::4mewtwo::rosalina::4zss::4ryu::4metaknight::4villager::4corrin::4pikachu::4tlink:
B: :4greninja::4lucina::4olimar::4megaman::4peach::4luigi::4ness::4falcon::4dk::4lucas::4lucario:
C: :4palutena::4link::4bowser::4shulk::4wario::4pit::4rob::4yoshi::4robinm:
D: :4duckhunt::4myfriends::4gaw::4charizard::4kirby::4littlemac::4feroy::4drmario::4pacman:
E: :4samus::4wiifit::4dedede::4falco::4bowserjr::4zelda::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:

We had voting run until February 20th, the week of Frostbite 2017, meaning that submissions were possible for a little less than a month; please note that Frostbite 2017 is not taken into account as a result. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 45 votes, including 25 US votes, and 20 international votes.

The following people submitted a vote (for those without a Smashboards account, Twitter handles have been listed instead):

As per our tier lists, we will not publicly release individual votes, but voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Shaya, we were able to generate rankings on two factors from the submitted votes: average placements and average groupings (or tiers). In addition, standard deviations for each of these values, and the placement differences from v2 to v3 have been included, with the merging of the Pits' placement accounted for.


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation | Difference from v2.0
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227 | +10
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211 | -1
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438 | -1
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564 | -1
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608 | +1
Mario | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614 | -1
Fox | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667 | ±0
Rosalina | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678 | -4
Mewtwo | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615 | +1
Marth | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662 | +9
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594 | -3
Ryu | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766 | -3
Corrin | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808 | +5
Meta Knight | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717 | -1
Pikachu | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734 | -3
Mega Man | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556 | -1
Villager | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609 | -3
Lucina | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841 | +18
Lucario | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741 | +3
Toon Link | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654 | -3
Peach | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791 | +5
Greninja | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569 | -1
Captain Falcon | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801 | -3
Ness | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748 | -8
Bowser | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807 | +7
Luigi | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846 | +3
Olimar | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01 | +4
Donkey Kong | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644 | -3
Yoshi | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891 | -6
Pit [Dark Pit]| 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825 | -6 [-3]
Lucas | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814 | +1
R.O.B. | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949 | -5
Robin | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782 | -4
Ike | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812 | ±0
Wario | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004 | -2
Duck Hunt | 37.09 | 6.539 | 3.42 | 0.917 | +5
Shulk | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871 | +6
Link | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842 | +4
Mr. Game & Watch | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972 | -3
Samus | 40.3 | 5.563 | 2.94 | 1.135 | +4
Palutena | 40.64 | 4.971 | 2.94 | 0.837 | -2
Little Mac | 42.0 | 4.461 | 2.87 | 0.911 | -4
Roy | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979 | +6
Charizard | 42.87 | 5.45 | 2.84 | 0.994 | +6
Pac-Man | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048 | -8
Kirby | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989 | -6
Bowser Jr. | 45.51 | 5.31 | 2.5 | 1.094 | -1
Wii Fit Trainer | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821 | -3
Falco | 45.68 | 4.059 | 2.39 | 0.829 | -1
Dr. Mario | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839 | -3
King Dedede | 50.0 | 2.991 | 1.71 | 0.859 | ±0
Ganondorf | 51.67 | 2.364 | 1.46 | 0.655 | +3
Mii Gunner | 51.75 | 2.537 | 1.69 | 0.533 | -1
Zelda | 51.93 | 2.531 | 1.43 | 0.579 | ±0
Mii Brawler | 52.14 | 3.27 | 1.73 | 1.006 | -2
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.099 | 1.61 | 0.629 | ±0
Jigglypuff | 53.64 | 1.459 | 1.18 | 0.356 | ±0

A low standard deviation indicates that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), whereas a higher standard deviation indicates disagreement in the character's placement. The top and bottom tiers tend to have lower values of standard deviation, whereas the mid tiers tend to have higher values.

By simultaneously taking order and tiers (or groupings) under the same vote, this allowed us to have a basis for the general order of characters, as well as a baseline to decide our tier separations. While a few instances of grouping caused minimal discrepancies, order was given priority.

We ended up taking a mixture of intervals, gaps and integer scoring to decide cutoffs for each character, based on their group score. Here are the following intervals for each of our tiers, as well as the specific tier classifications:
S: 7.94 - 7.62
A: 7.35 - 6.51
B: 6.0 - 5.08
C: 4.95 - 4.52
D: 4.35 - 3.29
E: 2.94 - 2.26
F: 1.71 - 1.18

Top Tier: 7.94 - 6.51 - Tiers S & A
High Tier: 6.0 - 5.08 - Tier B
Mid Tier: 4.95 - 3.29 - Tiers C & D
Low Tier: 2.94 - 1.18 - TIers E & F

The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.

With our methods and data accounted for, we're happy to present to you...

Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

-TOP-
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
-HIGH-
B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
-MID-
C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
-LOW-
E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:

Text Version

-TOP-
S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
-HIGH-
B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
-MID-
C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
-LOW-
E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

smash 4 backroom tier list v3 2.png

Addendum

As noted prior, Lucina and the Mii Fighters were optional votes. Here, we will briefly discuss the results of those 4 characters:
  • Lucina: 38 of the 45 voters included Lucina (as a result, she was placed onto the main tier list and the image). She ended up having the 4th highest standard deviation of all characters.
  • Miis: 10 of the 45 voters included Miis, of either ruleset. While we did not collect enough data to list XXXX Guest Size Miis, we did collect enough to place 1111 Guest Miis onto the list, resulting in the full list:
-TOP-
S: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4fox::rosalina::4mewtwo::4marth::4zss::4ryu:
-HIGH-
B: :4corrin::4metaknight::4pikachu::4megaman::4villager::4lucina::4lucario::4tlink::4peach::4greninja::4falcon:
-MID-
C: :4ness::4bowser::4luigi::4olimar::4dk::4yoshi::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4lucas::4rob::4robinm:
D: :4myfriends::4wario::4duckhunt::4shulk::4link::4gaw:
-LOW-
E: :4samus::4palutena::4littlemac::4feroy::4charizard::4pacman::4kirby::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario:
F: :4dedede::4ganondorf::4miigun::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miisword::4jigglypuff:

Conclusions

The end of Genesis 4 marked the true end of the second year of Smash for Wii U's competitive history, but also the beginning of an exciting new chapter. Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik and Diddy find themselves at the top 4 slots for this game, and other characters have earned their spot in the top tier, such as Marth, Ryu and Zero Suit Samus. Even high tier characters, including Lucario, Greninja and Mega Man, have been making strong cases for their viability as well. With patches seemingly finished and the potentiality of the Switch affecting Smash for Wii U's meta, there is an interesting air of ambiguity in addition to the growing presence Smash for Wii U has in competitive gaming. The 2017 Summer of Smash is already lining up with many events, and it will surely be filled to the brim with new players, more characters, and more national-level spectacles.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya for processing data and results; Camalange, Marc, Shaya, and Jucchan for assisting with the collection of correspondent votes; and A10theHero for editing. Lastly, I'd like to thank everyone else, including the voters, for their time and input into this project. It was a genuine honor to lead the project alongside Shaya for its third iteration and to work with many people to get this out to the public!
 
Gunla

Comments

HAHA! Zelda's rightfully where she belongs, a garbage tier for a garbage character. it's about time people realized where that garbage of a character is where she belongs.

I'm not sure how to feel about Peach's position though, I can agree but disagree too. I think this tier list is pretty accurate. I do think Palutena should be at least a tier higher though.
 
Well, after perusing the list for five minutes straight, looking at the placement of :4miibrawl:, :4miigun:, and :4miisword:, I hafta face the facts. They'll never have freedom with them being relegated to their **** 1111 set.

*sigh* I'll get over that and just drop them for :rosalina: instead. Either way, I'm not giving up on them; they'll be secondaries for me, so...
 
HAHA! Zelda's rightfully where she belongs, a garbage tier for a garbage character. it's about time people realized where that garbage of a character is where she belongs.

I'm not sure how to feel about Peach's position though, I can agree but disagree too. I think this tier list is pretty accurate. I do think Palutena should be at least a tier higher though.
I'm starting to think you thinking Zelda is bad isn't gameplay related.
 
I'm starting to wonder how much of these lists have been based on analysis and how much is influenced by knee-jerk reactions, first impressions, and which characters have had signature wins or gif moments lately. These rankings feel inconsistent and, at least from what I'm seeing, show a lack of understanding of the big picture.

Let's get started, shall we?

:4bayonetta:: The thing with Bayonetta is she's very, very good at shutting down many players' natural tendencies. You can't blindly run in, can't press buttons, and without an understanding of how her combos work, you'll get knocked around like the angels and demons she fights. Or worse, fall victim to an instant, unstoppable kill at any percent! ...Right?

Here's the thing: Bayonetta has counterplay, but it requires doing things many low and even some mid level players don't think of. Playing a patient neutral, zoning when possible, and relying on your shield to abuse her mediocre grab game make her tools more bearable, and having good SDI is a godsend...but many players don't understand such things, so talk of her being the next Brawl Meta Knight continues to spread. It's not that simple, guys. Just like she can't instantly whip out a kill combo the way she could before her nerfs. Not unless the knockback modifier got messed with beforehand, anyway.

:4cloud2:: Another character whose position here is based too much on how dominant he is in low level play. Being easy to pick up and good at pressuring opponents has led to...well, all of the talk there's been for a year now. But even moreso than Bayonetta, there's counterplay, but on a local level, Cloud's tools advance faster than the knowledge of how to beat him does. There's a reason most top players seem to have him outside their Top 5, and I feel the same way.

:4corrin:: Honestly, I don't think Corrin is that excessively high (somewhere in the 15-17 range would be better), but this really hammers down how inconsistent this list is. Results are used as a fallback argument all the time, a measuring stick of a character's viability, and while it isn't perfect (mainly with rarer characters), it's something to work with.

So how'd Corrin get this high when Corrin has had so few results lately? When all of the top Corrins have been inactive, for various reasons? If you're going to judge so heavily on results, at least be consistent about it.

:4bowser:: Anyone else think this feels like an overreaction to a few specific sets? Yeah, the grab followups are scary, but this feels like it ignores the context surrounding the grabs and how they happen. Sure, he's mid tier and all, but does this feel knee-jerk to anyone else? Especially for a character merely considered a strong counterpick?

:4feroy::4kirby:: I dunno, it just feels like the tools these two have are getting undersold. Especially after the stuff we've seen Roy do lately.

:4zelda:: Okay, what? Yeah, the awful neutral is a big problem, but this feels like it ignores how scary Zelda's advantage state can be and what tools she has when opponents have to come to her. After the buffs she's picked up over time, I can't justify her being in the Bottom 5. In fact, I wonder how many voters forgot she was buffed at all due to how rare she is in tournament play, and assumed she's still as punchless as she was in the base game?

And finally:

:4robinm:: Hoo boy. Where do we start here?

If there's one thing I've noticed with Smash 4 character talk, it's that someone's first impressions of a character tend to stick. So what does this do to a character whose flaws are clear as day, whose strengths aren't so obvious, and who is rare enough that most people's impressions of them are For Glory scrubs?

Well...something like this, apparently. Maybe it's my own limited scope, but I do not know of a more significant case than Robin where the majority of competitive players completely misunderstand how the character plays. No, Robin isn't utterly crippled by his running speed, not when his air speed is average. No, Robin's Plan A isn't to camp; he's actually pretty bad at hard camping and would rather zone at midrange. No, Robin's recovery isn't linear and easy to gimp; you actually have quite a bit of control over Elwind's lateral movement and it makes the move more like Rosalina's than Falcon's or Duck Hunt's. No, Robin doesn't auto-lose to anyone with high ground speed, a reflector, or a low crouch; the Levin Sword is just as effective at zoning as Robin's magic is.

I'm willing to bet many of you reading this didn't realize at least one of those things.

And yet, despite all of the proof otherwise, despite Dath's standout performances and consistently high placings at nationals (controller issues at TBH notwithstanding), despite other high level Robins such as Skorpio, Johan, Jerm, and Athena making waves, those misconceptions still stick around. It feels like so much of the fanbase is already convinced this character is mediocre at best, and then throws out any evidence to the contrary. And it's infuriating.

I don't know if anything like this happens to any other characters. Probably does. If your main is among them, I feel for you as well. This inconsistent excuse for a tier list will only make getting some damn respect even harder.
 
Last edited:
"'X' character does/doesn't have the results to justify their placement!"

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tier_list

Please read what actually goes into a tier list. Results are only part of the equation.
The article even says it's not entirely about results.

"As a fighting game's meta progresses, it is common to see tier lists being formed, often as a reference towards a character's tournament viability.
Later on
......
Even high tier characters, including Lucario, Greninja and Mega Man, have been making strong cases for their viability as well."

Also, can someone tell me how influential a character's results are in the making of official tier lists?
 
I'm starting to think you thinking Zelda is bad isn't gameplay related.
You would be correct. However relatively speaking. not counting my distaste for the character as a whole, i just find it funny she's one spot lower. (being no better than before) and this was speaking from both my hatred of the character and her garbage play. lol

argument stands either way. I find it funny and satisfying. sucks for those unfortunate souls.
 
*sigh* Let's get this over with.
This tier list is- ...actually not bad.
I've really got very little to say. Here we have 45 representatives from all over the community, voting forth a tier list I can back. Well done, I'm pleasantly surprised.
The only two tier positions I wholeheartedly disagree with are :4luigi: and :4robinm:. And sure my personal tier list is very different, but hey, everyone's got their own opinion.
 
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I'm starting to wonder how much of these lists have been based on analysis and how much is influenced by knee-jerk reactions, first impressions, and which characters have had signature wins or gif moments lately. These rankings feel inconsistent and, at least from what I'm seeing, show a lack of understanding of the big picture.

Let's get started, shall we?

:4bayonetta:: The thing with Bayonetta is she's very, very good at shutting down many players' natural tendencies. You can't blindly run in, can't press buttons, and without an understanding of how her combos work, you'll get knocked around like the angels and demons she fights. Or worse, fall victim to an instant, unstoppable kill at any percent! ...Right?

Here's the thing: Bayonetta has counterplay, but it requires doing things many low and even some mid level players don't think of. Playing a patient neutral, zoning when possible, and relying on your shield to abuse her mediocre grab game make her tools more bearable, and having good SDI is a godsend...but many players don't understand such things, so talk of her being the next Brawl Meta Knight continues to spread. It's not that simple, guys. Just like she can't instantly whip out a kill combo the way she could before her nerfs. Not unless the knockback modifier got messed with beforehand, anyway.

:4cloud2:: Another character whose position here is based too much on how dominant he is in low level play. Being easy to pick up and good at pressuring opponents has led to...well, all of the talk there's been for a year now. But even moreso than Bayonetta, there's counterplay, but on a local level, Cloud's tools advance faster than the knowledge of how to beat him does. There's a reason most top players seem to have him outside their Top 5, and I feel the same way.

:4corrin:: Honestly, I don't think Corrin is that excessively high (somewhere in the 15-17 range would be better), but this really hammers down how inconsistent this list is. Results are used as a fallback argument all the time, a measuring stick of a character's viability, and while it isn't perfect (mainly with rarer characters), it's something to work with.

So how'd Corrin get this high when Corrin has had so few results lately? When all of the top Corrins have been inactive, for various reasons? If you're going to judge so heavily on results, at least be consistent about it.

:4bowser:: Anyone else think this feels like an overreaction to a few specific sets? Yeah, the grab followups are scary, but this feels like it ignores the context surrounding the grabs and how they happen. Sure, he's mid tier and all, but does this feel knee-jerk to anyone else? Especially for a character merely considered a strong counterpick?

:4feroy::4kirby:: I dunno, it just feels like the tools these two have are getting undersold. Especially after the stuff we've seen Roy do lately.

:4zelda:: Okay, what? Yeah, the awful neutral is a big problem, but this feels like it ignores how scary Zelda's advantage state can be and what tools she has when opponents have to come to her. After the buffs she's picked up over time, I can't justify her being in the Bottom 5. In fact, I wonder how many voters forgot she was buffed at all due to how rare she is in tournament play, and assumed she's still as punchless as she was in the base game?

And finally:

:4robinm:: Hoo boy. Where do we start here?

If there's one thing I've noticed with Smash 4 character talk, it's that someone's first impressions of a character tend to stick. So what does this do to a character whose flaws are clear as day, whose strengths aren't so obvious, and who is rare enough that most people's impressions of them are For Glory scrubs?

Well...something like this, apparently. Maybe it's my own limited scope, but I do not know of a more significant case than Robin where the majority of competitive players completely misunderstand how the character plays. No, Robin isn't utterly crippled by his running speed, not when his air speed is average. No, Robin's Plan A isn't to camp; he's actually pretty bad at hard camping and would rather zone at midrange. No, Robin's recovery isn't linear and easy to gimp; you actually have quite a bit of control over Elwind's lateral movement and it makes the move more like Rosalina's than Falcon's or Duck Hunt's. No, Robin doesn't auto-lose to anyone with high ground speed, a reflector, or a low crouch; the Levin Sword is just as effective at zoning as Robin's magic is.

I'm willing to bet many of you reading this didn't realize at least one of those things.

And yet, despite all of the proof otherwise, despite Dath's standout performances and consistently high placings at nationals (controller issues at TBH notwithstanding), despite other high level Robins such as Skorpio, Johan, Jerm, and Athena making waves, those misconceptions still stick around. It feels like so much of the fanbase is already convinced the character is mediocre at best, and throws out any evidence to the contrary. And it's infuriating.

I don't know if anything like this happens to any other characters. Probably does. If your main is among them, I feel for you as well. This inconsistent excuse for a tier list will only make getting some damn respect even harder.
The thing with :4zelda: is having a non existent neutral combined with horrible MUs means she can't do almost anything when she's consistently locked down. Not to mention her horrible frame data into play, she just has too many things against her in Disadvantage and Neutral and her placement is satisfying as a result. Also her "KO Power" is inconsistent, so it barely complies.

On another note I forgot how low :4kirby: was. i didn't think he'd be that low though.
 
D
Nice list.

What I agree with:

  • I'm not suprised at all by Bayonetta's #1 placement. Someone had to be over Diddy Kong.
  • Admit it. Marth in Top Tier is what we were all asking for.
  • I knew Peach was High Tier all this time. She had no reason to be in Mid.
  • As much as I despise Bowser, I have to agree with his placement. I was just hoping DK's drop wouldn't be very drastic.
  • I love how Samus is nearing Mid Tier.
  • Roy and our 'Zard's potential have been revealed.
What I don't agree with:

  • Sheik is much higher than #4. MUCH higher.
  • Sonic over Mario is inaccurate.
  • I thought Olimar was a nobody in this community. Now he's Mid Tier.
  • Poor Ike. He went from Best Fire Emblem character to 2nd worst. This shows why speed is everything in Smash.
  • Dr. Mario in Bottom 5 baffles me.

Also, some said Luigi is a bit low. I don't see it.

But yeah, good tier list.
 
So when are we getting a matchup chart? It's been two years and three tier lists, so I think a chart might be warranted at this point.

I think the matchups will be more polarized (by that, I mean every character will have about as many bad matchups as good ones) or at least focused more heavily on archetypes than in other entries due to how characters' strengths and weaknesses are more prevalent, at least IMO.
 
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So when are we getting a matchup chart? It's been two years and three tier lists, so I think a chart might be warranted at this point.

I think the matchups will be more polarized (by that, I mean every character will have about as many bad matchups as good ones) or at least focused more heavily on archetypes than in other entries due to how characters' strengths and weaknesses are more prevalent, at least IMO.
A MU Chart for 55 characters is asking a lot of any group of people...that's 3,025 MUs.
 
:4cloud2:: Another character whose position here is based too much on how dominant he is in low level play. Being easy to pick up and good at pressuring opponents has led to...well, all of the talk there's been for a year now. But even moreso than Bayonetta, there's counterplay, but on a local level, Cloud's tools advance faster than the knowledge of how to beat him does. There's a reason most top players seem to have him outside their Top 5, and I feel the same way.
THIS.

FREAKING.

Han Solo THIS.jpg

Cloud's good for sure, top 10 easily. Maybe even top 8 (7th for lols?)

But definitely not top 3 over Sheik, Mario, Sonic or Fox.
 
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A MU Chart for 55 characters is asking a lot of any group of people...that's 3,025 MUs.
True... Brawl had 1,190 matchups (1,482 if you count Sheik, ZSS, and each Trainer Pokemon separately), and that was compiled after three years and five tier lists... but Smash 4's meta is advancing pretty quickly thanks to the internet and its relatively massive competitive base, and the forums are already doing this on a per-character basis, so I don't think it's totally unreasonable to see a full-game matchup chart start to come together within the next year.
 
Poor DK. I guess his bad MU's against a handful of top tiers and 1 particularly bad MU against Olimar just couldn't make him top 25. Hope Bowser will take good care of DK's former top 25 status. LOL. #LongLivetheDong
 
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D
Poor DK. I guess his bad MU's against a handful of top tiers and 1 particularly bad MU against Olimar just couldn't make him top 25. Hope Bowser will take good care of DK's former top 25 status. LOL. #LongLivetheDong
Us DK mains never have it easy.
 
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Idk why, but something is bothering me about Marth's tier list placement. More so about the difference between her and Lucina. I don't watch much tournament play and such so my opinion probably has no validity, but given the oh so little difference between the two characters, I really don't feel like the gap should be that large.

Hell i don't really think Marth should be that high to begin with.

Also am i the only one who looks at characters in a set tier and think that they are all equal?

I mean take Robin for example. I honestly don't think his worst then any of the other characters he is behind (up to about greninja maybe). But then at the same time i don't think he is really is above all them. So like i think they are all equal. One character isn't better then the other. You know?

So um, Roy should be a few places higher. Just saying

:135:
 
Idk why, but something is bothering me about Marth's tier list placement. More so about the difference between her and Lucina. I don't watch much tournament play and such so my opinion probably has no validity, but given the oh so little difference between the two characters, I really don't feel like the gap should be that large.

Hell i don't really think Marth should be that high to begin with.

Also am i the only one who looks at characters in a set tier and think that they are all equal?

I mean take Robin for example. I honestly don't think his worst then any of the other characters he is behind (up to about greninja maybe). But then at the same time i don't think he is really is above all them. So like i think they are all equal. One character isn't better then the other. You know?

So um, Roy should be a few places higher. Just saying

:135:
Between "her" and lucina?
 
This list does seem pretty accurate, just some nitpicks about certain placings though:
  • :4mario: should be above:4sonic:
  • I think :4wario: should be low tier at this point
  • :4ness: should be below :4bowser:,:4luigi:, and :4olimar:
  • :4palutena: should be at the bottom of mid tier in my opinion
  • Probably the one I'm the least sure about, but :4cloud: shouldn't be top 3, top 10 for sure, but definitely not top 3 in the game.
Sonic does better than Mario in terms of matchups. Wario isn't that bad. He just hasn't been used recently.
 
But then again, I think people are not giving :4dk: enough credit. He actually does better against some top tiers than most other mid/high tiers. Plus he has better results and MU's than :4bowser: and he still ranks lower than him. Just b/c Bowser has had decent results, various upsets, and an improved MU spread doesn't automatically make him top 25. I think :4bowser:still belongs in the 30's due to worse MU's than most others and his terrible landing options. Kinda shocking to see :4robinm:on the fall despite having consistently high results and :4cloud:still in the top 5 even though he really only takes doubles. :4cloud: is actually not too threatening in singles (albeit still powerful) due to his inconsistency and his weaknesses becoming more exploitable. :4zelda: just doesn't get appreciated. I personally think she is better than :4dedede: and has some decent results (results that are actually better than :4ganondorf: and some other low tiers). Also, how is :4sonic:higher than :4mario:despite having worse results and rep? This could be a sign of salty people who lost to a bunch of Mario's and ranked him lower to express their opposition for :4mario:. But then again, this is a decent tier list, but it could've been a bit better.
 
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This is honestly the worst official tier list out of all of the other ones. Kirby is too low and should never be below Link. Bayonetta is overrated IMO. Bowser is very overrated.

But at least Ally would be happy than Mario isn't top 5 anymore
 
This is a really bad list. I thought we'd gotten to the point where we'd realized that :4sheik: and :4diddy: (and to a lesser extent :4mario:) only do so well because of the monsters playing them, and that :4cloud: and :4bayonetta: aren't broken anymore. Also, :4zss: outside the top 10? And what the hell are :4corrin: and :4lucina: doing up there, what results do they have to back that up? Or are we judging some characters on literally nothing but potential, but others on literally nothing but results?

Is this seriously a list made by top players? Because it looks like something EventHubs would make.
 
I feel like Bayo is being weighed on her "potential" more than anything else, just like Rosa and Ryu before her. There's no denying that Bayo that can still do a ton of dumb stuff but we might be overestimating her ceiling for growth. Rosa reminds me of Brawl Dedede in how he was a dominating character with rage inducing tactics until people "figured him out" about 2 years into the game. Rosa's gameplay hasn't changed much since Day 1 and now, edging towards its third year, people know what to expect. I wouldn't be surprised if she kept falling.

Ryu's case is that he's being weighed down by his learning curve, just like Brawl Lucario/Wario and Peach her entire Smash existence. Another character who can do some controller throwing worthy things but also a character that can hit the wall hard if they're put in unfamiliar matchups. Again, he was previously graded on his "potential" but it didn't pan out and he's steadily gotten worse. Still viable but definitely not top five like so many people imagined him to be.

Still, looking at the tier list and seeing the results of the past year, we have a game that reasonably has up to 30 viable (my definition: top 8 or better in mid to large tournaments) characters; that's pretty damn good. Even the low tiers in this game can pull off dumb stuff and cause upsets so this game still definitely has a future ahead of it. I say this because, as someone who followed Brawl its entire lifespan, people were leaving left and right at Brawl's two year mark and people were practically begging pros to not drop it entirely. I'm still crossing my fingers for a Switch port with more balancing patches but the meta game is pretty healthy and I can see people enthusiastically playing this game even after Smash 5 comes out.
 
Terrible list imo. Who actually voted on this? More uneducated ranting should be considered in these lists! IM GOING TO SMASHWIKI/EVENTHUBS!!


All of y'all trippin.
 
Even though I find this tier list to be overall decent, I have several thoughts about it:

  • :rosalina: is still a tad bit too high. She's really fallen from the top with how rapidly her anti-meta is developing and how stagnant her meta itself seems to be. At this point she's stuck with ZSS on that line between top tier and high tier.

  • I've never thought :4marth: was top tier, and firmly believe he is carried by MKLeo. Mr. E is wildly inconsistent, and Pugwest hasn't had any explosive performances that showcase Marth as a top tier. The character himself has pretty bad flaws that I feel people overlook, like his terrible disadvantage, poor approach, and susceptibility to strong camping that forces him to approach. His strengths aren't very significant either, and I think people are relying way too much on Marth's tipper comebacks and Leo's results and not looking at his theory or matchups (which aren't as great as some would think).

  • Glad to see :4corrinf: that high, results aren't everything, and tier lists are more about theory imo, with results used as very loose evidence to support theory.

  • :4ryu: shouldn't be top tier. He's an amazing character regardless, but his neutral and approach options are severely lacking for a top tier character. Bump him down to B tier and anywhere between his current position and Mega Man will be fine for a character of his strength.

  • :4lucina: is a hot mess in the meta, there no real spot for her on tier lists with how underdeveloped her meta is. Though with NAKAT using Lucina much more now, it gives her what she has been missing for the last two years: top level results.

  • :4lucario: performed well at Frostbite, but I don't think it merits any position higher than what he has on this tier list. All that Tsu- proved imo was that Lucario is indeed very viable in capable hands, but whether or not he's able to keep up with the likes of the top tiers remains to be seen.

  • :4pit::4darkpit: are frightfully low. I guess lack of any representation outside of Earth and Kuro in Japan really, really hurts them because no one can show that they still have great tools. The community's perception of Pit basically depends on how well Earth does at whatever majors he goes to.

  • :4bowser: over :4dk:? Bowser is still very inferior to DK, no matter how good Nairo's Bowser was at UGC and ZeRo Saga. DK has a much better MU spread vs relevant characters like Sheik, Diddy, and Mario, while Bowser is useful as a situational counterpick, but overall his flaws are more pronounced than DK's with less significant strengths in most areas.

  • :4pacman: is probably as low as he is due to unfortunate misconceptions about his moveset. He's not as reliant on neutral B as people think, aside from kill setups and potential high damage combo setups, Pac-Man relies more on Hydrant and Trampolines for zoning, so the idea that stealing Pac-Man's fruit cripples him is horribly wrong. Aside from that, his kit is actually pretty effective, with a decent combo game thanks to his low lag normals, potent OoS options thanks to up B and nair, and effective burst options like dash attack. Sadly he's held back from being super solid due to slow mobility, significant lack of kill power, and weakness to range. He also has some really bad matchups vs the DLC, especially Cloud. He could comfortably be a D tier character, but he suffers from the same flaw as the Pits in that he has almost no representation to push his meta.

  • :4drmario: continues to get the shaft because "lol bad Mario". Doc on his own still has amazing normals thanks to sharing Mario's blinding frame data, great OoS game, and has a strong, more horizontal focused combo game (especially potent of fast fallers), and excellent edgeguarding kit. Unfortunately due to his sluggish mobility, his lack of range is more pronounced than Mario, but he still works as a decent bait/punish character. His recovery is pretty bad too, but like Luigi, mashing down B mitigates this flaw significantly.
Much better as an official tier list than the previous two, but just like those ones, I think this will become outdated extremely quickly.
 
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I honestly don't get why so many people are upset by Lucina's placement on the tier list. She pretty much enjoys all of Marth's frame data, with the key difference being that she lacks the sour and sweetspot on her sword.

That in turns helps her in certain matchups because she can do better against rushdown characters who might not give her the space Marth might require.

She's a good character, and it never made any sense for her to be so low. Unlike Dr. Mario vs Mario, Lucina does not have any glaring weaknesses in terms of mobility, recovery, or hit boxes.

The only thing she lacks is a tipper that can net early kills and some of Marth's combos.
 
Ehhh imo over a quarter of this tier list has a decent size of underestimated character worst offenders being Falco, Roy, and DK (ESPECIALLY DK). Sure the results are what makes impacts the tier list the most but the only section that seems almost perfect is the top tiers. As the meta progresses I hope to see I was right on not doubting the ability of the characters that I feel are off where they should be, but im no expert and im probably wrong but only time will tell.
 
What I want to know is why Kirby is bottom 10. He has far better tools than what you would think on a bottom 10 character, like down tilt and up tilt. (Although I could not know what I'm talking about) I'd probably put him at about where Samus or Palutena is.
 
D
Ehhh imo over a quarter of this tier list has a decent size of underestimated character worst offenders being Falco, Roy, and DK (ESPECIALLY DK). Sure the results are what makes impacts the tier list the most but the only section that seems almost perfect is the top tiers. As the meta progresses I hope to see I was right on not doubting the ability of the characters that I feel are off where they should be, but im no expert and im probably wrong but only time will tell.
They're only that low because their strengths are ignored by the competitive base (DK and Roy in particular get this a lot. Not sure about Falco).
 
Hmm...after perusing the new tier list again, I'm pretty astonished with :4lucina:'s current high-tier position. Well I daresay, she's finally movin' on up in the world. You know, I have a good mind to make her my third main character, there.
 
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