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The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

Zerp

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I'll edit in something for Bowser Jr. later because my PC keeps deciding to crash and I'd rather it not before posting this, but for now I'll just say that they NEED to fix his cannon, like come on, what am I supposed to use it for?

Bowser Jr.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1x_fhWa7r3p3o3BbcR03gfIqdMROlcD3XZBcdolzhUZs/viewanalytics
Wario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/1fzl6epS0icHitg02
You may vote for any of these cheaters!
:4bowser::4corrin::4darkpit::4drmario::4duckhunt::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4link::4lucario::4lucina::4gaw::4pit::4robinm::4shulk::4tlink::4villager::4wiifit::4yoshi::4zss::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:
I vote for :4duckhunt:

Edit: So it turns out, we already did Wario, so today's a free day, discuss whatever you want.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Zerp Zerp Wait a second...I just realized that we've already done :4wario: this round (November 19) and no one noticed that you forgot to remove him from the list of characters...

With that being said, voting for Banjo and Kazoo--I mean, :4duckhunt:.
 

Zerp

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Zerp Zerp Wait a second...I just realized that we've already done :4wario: this round (November 19) and no one noticed that you forgot to remove him from the list of characters...
Hahaha, wow, that's actually kind of hilarious when you think about it. Sorry about that guys, my bad.
 
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Axel311

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I'll just repost my comments for Wario from last time -

I missed wario -

1) Decrease end lag on Upsmash by a lot. Let his smashes be average instead of trash. I'm fine with keeping fsmash as super laggy considering its high knockback. And I'm even fine with dsmash being so laggy and low knockback since it has a long lingering hitbox. But upsmash should be usable. It being so much laggier and shorter range than Mario's but also killing later just isn't needed. That's overbalancing for waft. Waft isn't good enough to balance out his smashes being as bad as they are. I'm by no means am saying he should have an upsmash as good as mario's, but wario's upsmash should be a useable kill option.

2) Decrease start up frames of uptilt slightly

3) Decrease start up lag of ftilt by a handful of frames

4) Increase knockback of bair, let it kill ~5-10% earlier

5) Decrease ending lag of dair by a handful of frames

6) Make jab connect properly - it will still be trash but atleast it will work

I don't think Wario is low tier, but he's likely close. He is in need of buffs. His non-waft kill moves deserve a bit better frame data and knockback. He shouldn't be so dependent on waft to the point where he has shiek level bad killing ability outside of it. It's not THAT good, it's single use and has a 2 minute timer to balance it already. Giving wario such bad kill options outside of it is just overkill. Hitting waft should be more of a reward than a requirement. Wario deserves to be given some better killing ability outside of waft.
 
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Crimson Avenger

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Duck hunt needs some kill power so I would increase the can's and up throw's knockback.

Voting for zero suit samus.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'm back for one day only, because there's one thing that I really want to cover for Duck Hunt. It's all about the duo's Wild Gunman special move.

As we all know, Duck Hunt sends out a random gunman to damage opponents. However, the gunmen are underwhelming with their KO potential, struggling to KO even the lighter fighters; the weakest gunman can't KO Zero Suit Samus until her current damage goes over sudden death levels.

The issue goes even further with Quick Draw Aces and Mega Gunman. In fact, Mega Gunman is a very underwhelming custom special move, since the only good thing about it is the improved gunman stamina, while everything else is just pitiful, which includes the damage that they deal; if the gunmen have a large amount of start-up lag, their shots should at least pack a punch to compensate.

Anyway, the other day, I took the time to give the Wild Gunmen buffs that would make them more usable. Keep note the the KO percentage data may not entirely be exact, as this was tested in Training, and the gunman with the black suit delivers knockback that's more horizontal than vertical.

Wild Gunman
WildGunmanData1.png


Each gunman has received buffs for their damage dealt and knockback growth. The sombrero gunman has also gained KO potential.

Quick Draw Aces
WildGunmanData2.png


When compared to the buffed Wild Gunman, damage dealt is increased by 5 for each gunman. However, their shots also deliver less knockback, since the gunmen attack faster, and their range is reduced as well. Despite this drawback though, Quick Draw Aces can now KO fighters sooner than the unmodified version.

Mega Gunman
WildGunmanData3.png


Now this custom special move has been given a significant buff. When compared to the buffed Wild Gunman, damage dealt is increased by 10 for each gunman, and their shots have also been buffed up with their knockback growth. This makes the gunmen's shots be almost comparable to Little Mac's KO Uppercut. However, the shots are still blockable, and the gunmen still have their large delay before attacking. Also, the shots can't 1-hit KO, so damage would have to be built up before they can start making KOs.

The buff may seem very excessive, but there are still some notable flaws that keep the buffs from being too overpowering. First off, short fighters or any fighter who can crouch very low can avoid almost any shots made by the giant gunmen; only the sombrero gunman can get them. And since the giant gunmen have a large delay with their shots, opponents have time to get out of their attack range, and some of them can take down the giant gunmen before they even have a chance to attack; Donkey Kong is probably the best choice, since a few Hand Slaps are enough to put the giant gunmen out of commission.

Because of these flaws, the Duck Hunt duo would have to distract their opponent long enough for the giant gunman to deliver a big blow. If the big blow is made, the knockback can be powerful enough to KO even the heaviest fighters if enough damage has been accumulated. A much better reward when compared to the unmodified Mega Gunman.

Final Notes
After doing a lot of tests with the buffs, I can pretty much confirm that they make the Wild Gunman special move more usable, and can help Duck Hunt's KO options.

However, at least one person thinks that Wild Gunman should NOT receive buffs in damage and knockback, and should instead increase the gunmen's stamina, and decrease the move's ending lag. Frankly, that wouldn't help Duck Hunt very much, since the duo would still have problems with their KO options.

Still, you could always test out the buffs to determine what would be the better option for improving Wild Gunman.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4duckhunt:, the character that would likely be high tier if he could kill.
  • Just make his smash attacks connect. Range is fine, power is fine, just fix them so you can't DI out of the hits.
  • Increase knockback of U-throw or B-throw so he has a good kill throw.
  • Make Can not do as much self damage, so he isn't punished as hard for escaping a combo and could possibly follow up.
  • Increase travel speed and distance of Duck Jump. It's simply way too bad in every way, it needs fixing.

Voting for Nairo's main unless he's fighting Zinoto, :4zss:.
 

Zerp

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L1N3R1D3R

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:4zss: is certainly top tier, but after the nerfs to her ladder combo, she's basically balanced. I would like to see a nerf to one crazy move in exchange for a buff to a lackluster move, though:
  • Increase damage (and thus knockback) of D-tilt. It's her only low-hitting move and I'd rather not give her another combo starter by decreasing end lag, so I think making it a bit safer and stronger is a fair buff.
  • Decrease damage (and thus knockback) of the kick of Flip Kick. It already has invulnerability, great movement, and insane frame data to finish combos, does it also need to be as strong as it is?

Voting for :4bowser:, who seems to be the newest toy that top players are playing around with.
 
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Zerp

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Crystanium

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I honestly like Bowser as is. I would prefer his flamethrower be fireballs instead, though. I know there is a custom for that, but still, I'd rather go with that. It's a classic and allows Bowser to fight from a distance.

I still love this match between Lord Mix and M2K.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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:4bowser: is close to being balanced. I would still like one move to be buffed to help his neutral and edgeguarding, though:
  • Replace flinchless hits of Fire Breath with regular hits. Charizard has this luxury, making his Flamethrower a fearsome edgeguarding move and also a workable neutral tool, why not Bowser?

Voting for someone who's a lot more physically fit than Bowser, :4wiifit:.
 
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Zerp

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L1N3R1D3R

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:4wiifit: still needs some tune-ups so her game plan works well:
  • Fix all of her hitbox oddities. This would make her long limbs actually helpful for something.
  • Lower angle of jab 2 so jab 3 buries more often, and increase knockback of jab 3 so it's better when it doesn't bury.
  • Increase angle of dash attack so it kills off the top earlier and allows for more followups.
  • Decrease end lag of F-smash and startup of D-smash so they are safer to throw out.
  • Decrease end lag of D-throw to make followups more consistent.
  • Make Super Hoop do more damage so it has some offensive use.

Voting for one of four characters whose name starts with "Lu", :4lucina:.
 

FamilyTeam

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Out of all the characters in this game, I settled for :4lucina:as my main, :4mario:as some kind of very occasional secondary, and :4sheik:as "Just that character I love but I can't play". In this little scenario, :4wiifit: would probably fit in as a guilty pleasure. I like playing her, but I am horrible at it. I know no WFT mains personally, so even though I feel like there's something wrong with her, I really will not point fingers as to what that is exactly. I'd just love her to be a better character, somehow.

I guess I'll vote Lucina, also, for discussion. Again, this could be interesting.
 

MarioManTAW

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:4wiifit: already has perfect balance.

But she's not a great character, so... buffs? WFT is one of my least played chars, so I wouldn't know what to fix.
 

FamilyTeam

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After you spend 4 hours straight at training mode for a couple of days labbing combos, techs, kill percents and other things, and then spend the rest of the day studying matchups and how to cover them, you really start seeing your character in a new light.
I don't really think Lucina lacks anything, personally, and her weaknesses are but staples of Marth that have been here from the beginning: Not being able to land properly, being edgeguard by having your Dolphin Slash trade with an opponent's move, limited ways you can mix up your recovery, and having a hard time making the faster folk get off from under your nose.
I wouldn't change anything on her, personally. Buffs by this point to her are bonuses. Being able to do an Up Air out of a SH Fair would extend her combo game significantly, but I don't know how many of you are aware, but her combo game is already solid and respectable as is. A buff to FTilt could've been nice, but again, absolutely nothing but a bonus. At kill percents, while Marth can do Jab>FTilt, Lucina can do Jab>UTilt, and depending on the level of rage and the character, it's not gonna kill that much later. There's also (SH DB1>) Nair 1>Dolphin Slash or just Jab>Dolphin Slash which work for a very large margin of percentage and only stop working way after DS starts killing.
If there's anybody here who thinks Lucina is a Low Mid/Low Tier character still, I have to ask you what do you think would fix that, really?
 
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Alexander1583

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The only things i can see happening without breaking her are small dmg buffs to some attacks, like foward tilt, dancing blade final hits(particulary: foward and upward) and maybe second hit of neutral air(to make her a little more attractive as a pick in some matchups).

I would love bigger buffs/changes to differentiate her more from marth, but we run the risk of making her the new cloud(And we all know how much people love him).

I vote for shulk.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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:4lucina: is an interesting case, as theoretically she is quite good as has been proven by tons of rants on this thread, but she doesn't have many results to prove this. I just wish there were a big reason to use her over Marth aside from "consistency", because even though she should be on the upper end of high mid, she's fallen into relative obscurity aside from Kogarasuma and a couple other players, who don't place too well.

If I were to change anything, it would be slight buffs and nerfs to balance each other out and distinguish her from Marth, but I'm not sure how to do that without turning her into either a discount Cloud or another Ike. Maybe better aerial game in exchange for her ground game, or the reverse? I'm not sure.

Voting for the latest character to majorly upset Ally, :4greninja:.
 

FamilyTeam

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The only things i can see happening without breaking her are small dmg buffs to some attacks, like foward tilt, dancing blade final hits(particulary: foward and upward) and maybe second hit of neutral air(to make her a little more attractive as a pick in some matchups).
The reason Dancing Blade might not KO as much as it really should in theory is because of staleness. Unstale, the last hit of Forward and Up can KO people at percents you'd never even imagine, and since every hit of DB occupies its own space in the staleness queue, you could avoid staling the one you wish to kill with and then only use it when necessary. I've KO'd Foxes at 80% by reading roll getups using DB Forward.
A buff so staleness doesn't destroy this move's KO potential would be really cool, but I don't even know if it could be done. Anything else would honestly make this move a bit broken.
 

(>´u´)>

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My internet is so lagged now that I can't see who is left for picking.

Ill just vote for whoever L1N3R1D3R has chosen,I usually agree. ill find out who they picked when my internet comes back.

Voting for the latest character to majorly upset Ally, :4greninja:.
 

Zerp

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Axel311

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Shulk needs a buff, but I'd rather increase his rewards instead of frame data to keep him differentiated from Cloud. Buff his Monados.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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:4shulk: has finally shown that his "poTENshul" means something with Kome winning a Japanese tournament over Shuton. He still lies in mid tier, however, and needs a few buffs before he's worth using over other sword fighters (besides Roy, rip):
  • Add sourspots to U-smash, D-smash, U-air, and D-air. With the sword still shining, you'd think that it would at least do some damage, but alas it doesn't, reducing the viability of these moves.
  • Slightly increase his mobility during Shield Art. This is his worst Monado Art because on top of weaker attacks, he gets a mobility nerf which is so big that it makes him slower than every other character in every aspect. "Surviving longer" doesn't mean much if his recovery is bad, after all...
  • Do something with Back Slash. Perhaps make it able to grab the ledge after a little bit? Perhaps decrease landing lag? I'm not sure how to fix this extremely situational move.

Voting for my actual favorite Pokemon, :4greninja:.
 
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Spurdo

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You know, I think Shulk is actually one of the best characters in the game in the sense that you really must play like Shulk to win, as in, you need to be psychic to actually hit anything with the idiot. He's slow, he's so slow and I don't know why. His incredible range in no way compensates for his lack of speed. He's so ridiculously ineffective they sold a buff for the character for 5.99 and called it Cloud.

Most of his moves need a speed buff, even if it is just a couple of frames, especially his jab. He needs a better way of getting people off of him.
 

Tizio Random

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Most of this suggestiona are spot-on. The only thing I want to add is a good buff to power and safety in Backslash to make it at least usable in the right conditions. It's an incredibly powerul move in XC (which I'm addicted to currently lol) and so underwhelming in this game.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4greninja: is perfectly balanced at this point. He requires extreme knowledge of the game and the current situation as well as great technical prowess to use most effectively, but surprisingly a lot of players have done so, most notably iStudying but also all of these players, proving he is a threatening, high-tier character.

Voting for Mr. R's "for fun" character against Ally, :4link:.
 

Zerp

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Greninja's great as is, he's a major threat in the right hands, but not an overpowered or even an overcentralizing one.

Here's Greninja's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1juSZf7qOcLeSEUZguUGbSx04JMafes-k_6IcDtaA7aE/viewanalytics
Here's Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/erPB3dWfFVgHoS1v2

You may vote for any of these blessed people who have not had the extreme misfortune of having a CD-i game.
:4corrin::4darkpit::4drmario::4fox::4littlemac::4lucario::4gaw::4pit::4robinm::4tlink::4villager::4yoshi::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:
I'll vote for :4darkpit:, the guy who should be roughly one or two spots away from Pit on the Tier List yet somehow has next to no results.
 

Guido65

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Reposting my suggested link buffs I posted earlier in this thread

Jumpsquat: frame 7->frame 5.

Run speed increased: 1.3944->1.52.

Air acceleration: increased(0.04->0.06).

Air speed: increased from 0.88->1.00(now matches:linkmelee:).

Jab 1 startup:7->5.

Jab 1 faf:28->19(now what it was pre patch) Angles edited to match :4miisword: to remove the "infinite".


Jab 2 and 3 also receive a endlag reduction 21->19(jab 2) 37->31(jab 3).

Neutral air:now frame 4 like melee.

Up B: sourspot removed,faf decreased (82->60) startup decreased(8->5).

Uptilt: damage increased 9%->10% Faf lowered by 3 frames 36->33. Kbg increased slightly 122/130/123/124->128/136/129/130.

Up air kbg increased: 88->110.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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:4link: has recently proved himself to be a fearsome competitor through the likes of T, Izaw, and Sova Unknown. He would still be better off with a few buffs, though:
  • Increase air acceleration. A big reason his pressure is ineffective is because he can't effectively weave in and out, forcing him to either go in hard or plan to retreat beforehand, both of which are impractical in most cases.
  • Increase knockback of U-throw. Why does the slower but more powerful version of Link have a worse kill throw than the quicker one? Perhaps because his grab is less laggy, but still!
  • As weird as it may sound, I actually want B-air to have less knockback growth. If they're going to treat it like a combo move with its low lag and relatively low knockback, they should fully commit to that idea.

Voting for the result of bad hygiene, :4darkpit:.
 
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