4/19 Gigabits - The Melee exploded into a Brawl

[Samus_ABe]

Bane are you going to this? or wario/gw team would be beaast dude

 

[SabinX]

can't make this. gonna be in california.. but everyone comin this saturday to ZP anyway.. hotness.

 

[chavalava84]

So before a match can i change my control scheme so i can b-stick or is that not allowed?

 

[GDX]

So before a match can i change my control scheme so i can b-stick or is that not allowed?

youre allowed to make your own name, and thus, set your controls to your name if you want

 

[OTRU...]

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 1
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Pipes (Yoshi's Island - Melee)
Distant Planet

Banned:

Pictochat
Onett
Green Greens
Corneria
Green Hill Zone
Norfair
Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 2
Bridge of Eldin
Big Blue
Mario Circuit
Shadow Moses Island
Port Town
Skyworld
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
New Pork City
Summit
75M
Mario Bros. Old
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
WarioWare
Spear Pillar

Im completely fine with this list, i like it more than dguy's to be honest. Pipes isnt broken anymore so its an acceptable counterpick, im gonna miss corneria though ddd cg is too good there.

People with highest seeding points at gigs should vote for this, my vote goes to this list.

 

[QDVS]

I actually like the counter pick list Seibrik uses for his tourney!!!

 

[OTRU...]

but he has corneria, japes and green greens.
qdvs whats your opinion on these levels?

 

[dguy6789]

This tourney is going to be most excellent.

 

[QDVS]

Green greens is ok IMO, but Japes/Corneria is butt!!!

Actually Fenrir's is fine, but lemme pick out the ones I just don't like (I don't usually have sound logic with my picks so LOL):

Luigi's Mansion - Way too campy and Hyrule esque (cave of life esque) IMO
Pirate Ship - I just think there are too many hazards on this stage for me to like it

Other than that I guess I like Fenrir's list now that I think about it!!!

>_<

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

i'm starting to think Poke1 should be banned. so much stalling on that level now and the edge is really ********...

 

[dguy6789]

I imagine Green Greens was decided to be banned because Dedede can wallgrab on it? Otherwise it is perfectly fine.

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

Luigi's Mansion - Way too campy and Hyrule esque (cave of life esque)

it's not comparable imo. that stage is about map control. if a player is getting high in % and you want to kill him it doesn't take much to brake the level and get that ceiling out of the way. i think it's strategic

 

[QDVS]

I agree to an extent, I just don't like CP's much really!!!

I generally stick to neutrals...

That's why I said my logic isn't usually sound!!!

LOL

 

[Rx-]

Let me tell you, the fact that Distant Planet made it over Jungle Japes astonishes me.

Someone tell me why, please!

 

[dguy6789]

I don't think Jungle Japes should really be banned.

This is my current list of what I think the stages should be. After Dedede came in and destroyed the legality of a ton of stages, we don't have too many counter picks left. That's why I say we should still have Pictochat and Norfair. By popular demand, I will concede and say PS1 can be a counter pick.



Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville


Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium
Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Hanenbow


Banned:

Pictochat
Pokemon Stadium 2
Big Blue
Skyworld
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
New Pork City sucks
Summit
75M
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hyrule Temple
Warioware
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Shadow Moses Island
Mario Circuit
Onett
Yoshi's Island Melee
Green Hill Zone
Green Greens
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria

 

[hungrybox]

Isn't that my list after i corrected fenrir's?

 

[h1roshi]

so,im pretty sure now that i will be making this gigs. if so, i am so relieved. my manager finally looked over the request book, and was like, "so thats the only day off you want for this month?" and i was like, yeah. and he was just like nodding his head. im pretty sure he is going to give it to me. if so, I cant wait to see how ninjabox does.

-hiro

 

[h1roshi]

so,im pretty sure now that i will be making this gigs. if so, i am so relieved. my manager finally looked over the request book, and was like, "so thats the only day off you want for this month?" and i was like, yeah. and he was just like nodding his head. im pretty sure he is going to give it to me. if so, I cant wait to see how ninjabox does.

-hiro

 

[hungrybox]

so,im pretty sure now that i will be making this gigs. if so, i am so relieved. my manager finally looked over the request book, and was like, "so thats the only day off you want for this month?" and i was like, yeah. and he was just like nodding his head. im pretty sure he is going to give it to me. if so, I cant wait to see how ninjabox does.

-hiro

yayayayayay

 

[h1roshi]

you do realize we are going to own.

-hiro

 

[hungrybox]

dguy your list is...

BUTT!!

<3 Queen

 

[Mankosuki]

you know what weekend to ask off for in May.

 

[dguy6789]

Isn't that my list after i corrected fenrir's?

Is it?

dguy your list is...

BUTT!!

<3 Queen

See above.


I feel the list is very solid. Not a single stage in the counter pick section has yet to be given a real solid reason to be banned. People just say they don't like the stage. I don't necessarily like all the stages in the counter picks section, but they have no reason to be banned.

 

[h1roshi]

i dont care about all these counter picks. w/e is fine with me. but if we are going to have all these discrepancies at the tourney, we'll have to go all neutrals then.

-hiro

 

[vericz]

Dguy take off japes and Pokestadium2 and picto chat. Add green greens!! And I like corneria but if ddd is such a big problem i guess it can be banned too.

 

[Rx-]

PK stadium 2 is ALOT worse than some of the other bans, and Pictochat is absolutely unbearable.

No one is going to accept your list with stages like those on it. For real.

 

[hungrybox]

Oh trust me i am a problem

hehe once again i use the cheap character

man i sux0rs

 

[dguy6789]

Dguy take off japes and Pokestadium2 and picto chat. Add green greens!! And I like corneria but if ddd is such a big problem i guess it can be banned too.

Green Greens was banned because Dedede can wallgrab there I guess. If he can't then it might as well be unbanned.

PK stadium 2 is ALOT worse than some of the other bans, and Pictochat is absolutely unbearable.

No one is going to accept your list with stages like those on it. For real.

I have said it many times, Pictochat is not bad at all. It has been used in MANY past tournaments and nobody complained or had problems with it, you guys keep exaggerating how bad it is. PS2 is debatable, but I still have yet to see any reason to ban it. Treadmills making it hard to edge guard and the low grav helping G&W hardly merits a ban.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Not a single stage in the counter pick section has yet to be given a real solid reason to be banned. People just say they don't like the stage. I don't necessarily like all the stages in the counter picks section, but they have no reason to be banned.

I have to wonder how much you are actually playing on the stages you advocate so much. You said yourself that you hadn't played Port Town (a stage you argued for a long while) very many times. People have listed many good reasons why each stage should be banned...and I'm not sure why you aren't seeing that. Your philosophy seems to be "if a stage disrupts both players to some extent, but not greatly, and does not lead to an auto-win, it should be legal" I agree and disagree with this point...if it is very disruptive, why would it be considered a tourney legal stage? I feel that if a stage can turn would-be skill into random chance, it should be gone. Of course, a large number of the stage have random events on them...and they shouldn't necessarily be banned...but quite a few render actual legitimacy impossible.

Let me recap for you.

PictoChat: Remember...I love this level...so it's not "I don't like it, so it should be banned". After much play on the stage, it is too random to be allowed. Raistlin made an excellent point, where larger characters who are falling cannot avoid the upward spikes transformation...which does kill. On top of that, I was playing the stage yesterday against PK...he knocked me off, I was recovering, and the side spikes appeared ON TOP OF me...he then landed another bair back into the spikes (all unavoidable, btw), and I died off the top at like 120 with Ike. Add to that the fact that half of the transformations have CGable walls...and a couple render fighting absolutely impossible...and the stage is gone. Note: I didn't factor in the Kirby thing to this...I don't think that's all that good, for the record...you can charge and hit him at the end of it.

Green Greens: Has CGable walls...and the fire glitch with Ganon...I don't think the latter is all that useful, but the walls, if we are not banning the tactic itself, are a huge problem. sorry, but gone.

Jungle Japes is an instant kill on the left side of the stage, due to the water mechanic.

Hanenbow: Wrecks recoveries...pure and simple. Lucas, Squirtle, Ike, and quite a few others actually change the leaf placement as they use their up b...at times keeping them from grabbing the ledge randomly...Also, I have personally seen this stage wreck a tether recovery...as it gets confused and just doesn't go for the ledge. That alone would warrant my banning of it, but on top of that, the level spacing is set up to promote running and camping. the leaves will change which attacks hit and which miss...again pretty randomly. I can't see why people are even arguing this one. I've tried to play it quite a few times recently...and I can't see a good reason it shouldn't be banned.

PokeStadium 2: Your statement that the wind transformation benefits ground players shows that you don't understand how stupid this stage is. The fact remains...there is not a GOOD transformation on this stage, and at least two that disrupt normal gameplay to the point of breaking any sort of legitimate tournament play. The low grav portion greatly enhances up killing moves (ohko for GW? wtf?) and increases knockback all around. The conveyors make it nearly impossible to continue fighting. The ice is annoying, but bearable...The ground has a CGable wall. None of them are good. at all. You can say that it makes tournament players adapt to the ever changing surroundings, but I don't like the idea of a person surviving...or completely turning a match around simply due to the stage. Nobody liked that in Melee...nobody likes it now. It's simply not fair.

Norfair, I'm banning basically because of the bad level spacing the back flares and the big wave.All of the ledges being grabbable makes the stage VERY campy and stall tactics reigning supreme...it also kills any idea of edgeguarding, for the most part. The floor laval and side lava, I'm ok with...it doesn't change anything enough to make any difference, and the lava doesn't do that much knockback. The back flares have random hitboxes that cover more area than they appear to...and the wave. The wave, as you say is shield / dodgeable. However, One person with bad luck can be thrown into it or hit into it and killed around 70. It comes at varying speeds, so it's very tough to time a shield on it, so a different player with a stock lead could land a grab and hold them there for the wave. I don't think the stage deserves a ban for any single one of those reason, but for all of them combined.


Now personally, I don't like distant planet, either, but I can't see any real reason to ban it...there are a couple bad things, but overall...oh well.

I support my list. as do several other people.

 

[Rx-]

Jungle Japes is an instant kill on the left side of the stage, due to the water mechanic.

I didn't know this !

Hanenbow: and I can't see a good reason it shouldn't be banned.

Cuz' there's swirls of cinnamon sugar in every bite!

-No hazards
-No moving parts

I understand that it should be banned, but it's not as bad as you make it sound imo.

PokeStadium 2: Your statement that the wind transformation benefits ground players shows that you don't understand how stupid this stage is. The fact remains...there is not a GOOD transformation on this stage, and at least two that disrupt normal gameplay to the point of breaking any sort of legitimate tournament play. The low grav portion greatly enhances up killing moves (ohko for GW? wtf?) and increases knockback all around. The conveyors make it nearly impossible to continue fighting. The ice is annoying, but bearable...The ground has a CGable wall. None of them are good. at all. You can say that it makes tournament players adapt to the ever changing surroundings, but I don't like the idea of a person surviving...or completely turning a match around simply due to the stage. Nobody liked that in Melee...nobody likes it now. It's simply not fair.

Yea, f that stage.

Norfair, I'm banning basically because of the bad level spacing the back flares and the big wave.All of the ledges being grabbable makes the stage VERY campy and stall tactics reigning supreme...it also kills any idea of edgeguarding, for the most part. The floor laval and side lava, I'm ok with...it doesn't change anything enough to make any difference, and the lava doesn't do that much knockback. The back flares have random hitboxes that cover more area than they appear to...and the wave. The wave, as you say is shield / dodgeable. However, One person with bad luck can be thrown into it or hit into it and killed around 70. It comes at varying speeds, so it's very tough to time a shield on it, so a different player with a stock lead could land a grab and hold them there for the wave. I don't think the stage deserves a ban for any single one of those reason, but for all of them combined.

F this stage too!

 

[dguy6789]

PictoChat: Remember...I love this level...so it's not "I don't like it, so it should be banned". After much play on the stage, it is too random to be allowed. Raistlin made an excellent point, where larger characters who are falling cannot avoid the upward spikes transformation...which does kill. On top of that, I was playing the stage yesterday against PK...he knocked me off, I was recovering, and the side spikes appeared ON TOP OF me...he then landed another bair back into the spikes (all unavoidable, btw), and I died off the top at like 120 with Ike. Add to that the fact that half of the transformations have CGable walls...and a couple render fighting absolutely impossible...and the stage is gone. Note: I didn't factor in the Kirby thing to this...I don't think that's all that good, for the record...you can charge and hit him at the end of it.

Chain grabbing on a large majority of the transformations is a problem, that is enough for the stage to be gone. I didn't really consider chain grabs on this stage prior, so my mistake.

That said, a stage being bad or downright horrible for one type of character does not in any way what so ever support a ban for it. I am speaking directly of big characters having problems with the spikes. If you play a big character, ban the stage for your set. Purpose of a counter pick is to pick a stage where you think you will have an advantage over your opponent for whatever reason.

Pictochat is gone.

Green Greens: Has CGable walls...and the fire glitch with Ganon...I don't think the latter is all that useful, but the walls, if we are not banning the tactic itself, are a huge problem. sorry, but gone.

Chain Grab walls is why I thought it was banned. Would you or someone enlighten me as to Ganon's fire glitch?

Jungle Japes is an instant kill on the left side of the stage, due to the water mechanic.

At first I didn't think that aspect was so bad, but thinking about it more, it is. Agreed.

Hanenbow: Wrecks recoveries...pure and simple. Lucas, Squirtle, Ike, and quite a few others actually change the leaf placement as they use their up b...at times keeping them from grabbing the ledge randomly...Also, I have personally seen this stage wreck a tether recovery...as it gets confused and just doesn't go for the ledge. That alone would warrant my banning of it, but on top of that, the level spacing is set up to promote running and camping. the leaves will change which attacks hit and which miss...again pretty randomly. I can't see why people are even arguing this one. I've tried to play it quite a few times recently...and I can't see a good reason it shouldn't be banned.

Wrecking recoveries is not a reason to ban a stage. Pokefloats or Mute City anyone? I have played on it quite a few times recently and it was a bit campy but not really too bad. If the stage is that bad for your character, just ban it.

PokeStadium 2: Your statement that the wind transformation benefits ground players shows that you don't understand how stupid this stage is. The fact remains...there is not a GOOD transformation on this stage, and at least two that disrupt normal gameplay to the point of breaking any sort of legitimate tournament play. The low grav portion greatly enhances up killing moves (ohko for GW? wtf?) and increases knockback all around. The conveyors make it nearly impossible to continue fighting. The ice is annoying, but bearable...The ground has a CGable wall. None of them are good. at all. You can say that it makes tournament players adapt to the ever changing surroundings, but I don't like the idea of a person surviving...or completely turning a match around simply due to the stage. Nobody liked that in Melee...nobody likes it now. It's simply not fair.

This is one of the way way more radical counter picks, so I can understand if the majority of people want it banned. None of the forms of this stage except for the default one support neutral map type of play, which makes it very easy to dislike. If everybody hates it that much then that's fine, I just never had too much of a problem with it. I didn't love the stage, but it was meh.

Norfair, I'm banning basically because of the bad level spacing the back flares and the big wave.All of the ledges being grabbable makes the stage VERY campy and stall tactics reigning supreme...it also kills any idea of edgeguarding, for the most part. The floor laval and side lava, I'm ok with...it doesn't change anything enough to make any difference, and the lava doesn't do that much knockback. The back flares have random hitboxes that cover more area than they appear to...and the wave. The wave, as you say is shield / dodgeable. However, One person with bad luck can be thrown into it or hit into it and killed around 70. It comes at varying speeds, so it's very tough to time a shield on it, so a different player with a stock lead could land a grab and hold them there for the wave. I don't think the stage deserves a ban for any single one of those reason, but for all of them combined.

Mainly just hearing "I don't like Norfair". I would say throwing or putting your enemy in harm's way is strategy or negligence on their part. It is a more "involved" counter pick, but it is nothing more than a fancy Brinstar.

 

[h1roshi]

all neutrals for gigs?

-hiro

 

[Gindler]

That'll probably be the case, with all this arguing going on. and when someone says Final Destination requires pure skill after you beat them at another level you have to take the challenge.

 

[h1roshi]

all neutrals for gigs?

-hiro

 

[C@sH Mooney]

I have no problem with that list, Darrel. I just don't want PS2, or Pirate Ship. lol

 

[Fenrir VII]

Chain Grab walls is why I thought it was banned. Would you or someone enlighten me as to Ganon's fire glitch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQG9TEiGjKo

This is REALLY inconsistent...and overall not useful, but really cool sometimes. Not a good enough reason to ban by itself...but the walls are definitely CGable.

Wrecking recoveries is not a reason to ban a stage. Pokefloats or Mute City anyone? I have played on it quite a few times recently and it was a bit campy but not really too bad. If the stage is that bad for your character, just ban it.

Well, the difference is that on Poke Floats or Mute City, edges were either there, or not. On Hanenbow, the edges are there, but some chars recoveries won't grab the ledge RANDOMLY...like...even if they're still spaced for it. It's really weird. It happens a lot to me as Ike, but I've seen weird stuff with Lucas, and heard about Squirtle's...Other than that, tethers don't grab the ledge every time...and yes, I know about the three tether rule. Sometimes, the tether gets confused for some reason on that stage and doesn't go for the ledge...it's really weird.

Mute City was a good point, but that was purposely supposed to not have edges...Hanenbow has them, it's just that a lot of chars get screwed by them, which isn't cool. Other than that, I just don't support the level spacing itself...

Mainly just hearing "I don't like Norfair". I would say throwing or putting your enemy in harm's way is strategy or negligence on their part. It is a more "involved" counter pick, but it is nothing more than a fancy Brinstar.

I would agree that its nothing more than a fancy Brinstar if the two lower platforms didn't have grabbable ledges...that breaks edgeguarding and encourages stalling, which I don't think is right. Honestly? It's not a terrible stage, I just don't see it as tourney worthy....the flares and waves are just the final straws for me.

I say we vote on these two stages. Hanenbow and Norfair. Counterpicks or bans? Voting will close on Sunday at midnight. sound good?

Also...Pirate ship is fair...get over it, people.

Also also....FD only is a terrible idea

also also also...Neutrals only is unnecessary. We did it for HK, because we didn't want to argue a ban list with Dumpster...Gigs is cool, though...and we are able to debate stages here...that's all this is...a debate. It's not an argument. Don't try to stop intelligent conversation by saying "screw it, neutrals only."

 

[dguy6789]

That is a really interesting little glitch Ganny has there haha. Yeah, a vote sounds quite excellent, although I am pretty sure I am in the minority. I am in favor of both being legal stages.

 

[Rohins]

I vote in favor of both :D

 

[_Riot_]

I see alot of note into the ledges of hanenbow, but not much involving the camp-like nature of the stage such as Yoshi's Island was to Melee. Considering the slower mechanics of character movement, faster and/or projectile happy characters will be in major control of this stage. Just something to keep in mind, but probably like our mistakes in the past with melee stages, we'll just have to see how people can extremely abuse certain stages in their favor before we can decide on a 100% stage ban.

 

[Finch]

hanenbow - yes

norfair - no