3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Shokio]

Let me address the reasoning behind a few of the changes:

Grab/Laser: The grab change was largely due to making her match her character archetype. She has a really strong dash dance/combo game, similar to Falcon/Marth, but the lack of a standing grab to threaten shields really holds her back in the long run. Laser had to be changed because dash cancelled laser in tandem with standing grab is absurdly broken in the neutral game and I think it's fairly obvious why. Yes, this means that her laser went from one of the best projectiles to one of the worst, but let's not forget that her grab went from the absolute worst frame-wise to the standard for all other characters. Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now. If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.
And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup. She pretty had guaranteed followups on almost any character at any %.

Dair: In 3.02, with the hitlag modifiers and low cooldown, dair was +0 on shield. Dair -> dair -> dair on shield was unreasonably hard to punish and required almost no commitment from the ZSS player. Right now, dair on shield is -7, which is still really hard to punish, especially with the drift mixup. Her combo game was hurt a bit as a by-product but that was slightly offset by the increased knockback. If you learn the new IASA timing, it's actually not that bad.

Divekick: In 3.02, this used to have IASA during an active hitbox, which we've learned is a huge violation of smash mechanics (see: 2.5 Sonic).



Please don't look at these changes in a vacuum and say that ZSS is now a bad character. If you put 3.5 ZSS in 3.02, she would probably be slightly worse, but then again, almost character would. We knew the laser change would be controversial and there would be backlash, but don't forget that all the other centralizing projectiles in 3.02 (fireballs, shadowballs, boomerangs, bananas, Din's fires) were also adjusted. Before making rushed judgments, please consider her new strengths and weaknesses in regards to the new metagame and our more refined design philosophy.

I hear you loud and clear, and understand the points being made, but it's still all a no for me.

Well, not all. I don't care much for the Dair nerf and the divekick change, those are fine/whatever.

But here's my issue with some of the logic used:

Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now.

Easy IN-COMPARISON to her *dysfunctional* grab in 3.02. There's nothing about her new grab that's easier than another char's grab in the game.....it's just easier compared to her past self.

If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.

And.......what would've been wrong with that, exactly? Swordies aside, Wolf can chain grab. Fox can chain grab. Falcon can chain grab. DDD can chain grab. Snake can chain grab. Mario can chain grab. Diddy can chain grab. Olimar can chain grab. Lucario can chain grab.......I'm sure you see the point. I thought the whole point of giving her a normal grab, WAS to allow her to properly chain grab and things of that nature.

Yes, I understand that giving her a normal grab is a "buff" (although really, it's a FIX), but at the end of the day, it's NOT a buff if she can't do anything out of her throws. What's the point of improving the grab if you can't do anything after the grab? Defeats the purpose.

And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup

Up Throw threw behind her, Down throw threw in front of her. I don't see how they weren't mixups. If they DI'd for a down throw but you did an up throw, they'd be thrown perfectly for an Up-B. Vice-versa, a back throw DI'd down throw would've popped them up right in front of you, leading into a Fair. They were mixups.

Seriously, how many characters in this game DON'T actually have great conversions out of throws or a DI mixup? Pretty much every characters has one or the other, and quite a few chars actually have both.

It seems like for some reason, you guys decided that ZSS can't have things that 90% of the roster already has. Why not? Why is she of all characters blacklisted from common, almost roster-wide mechanics?

if she still had it, she would be capable of a very dangerous RPS despite committing very little to it. Paralyzer -> Dash -> JC grab, even if they roll, they don't get to punish, and in most cases have just put themselves in a worse position from which they will be pressured by more paralyzers. It would not be possible to punish her grab on whiff with her new grabs after rolling to avoid them, unlike 3.02.

Then apply the proper changes to balance it out instead of removing it altogether. ZSS #1 strength is her mobility, it's part of the core of her character. The removal of the lasers killed part of the character. Nerfs and tweaks should tone down a character, not damage who they are.

Like I said in the post above, why not just have made them clankable while keeping the DC? If that wasn't enough, then how about clank-ability with a speed up (pretty much how it is now), meaning she'd have a smaller window to try to grab since the paralyzer is traveling much quicker in front of her.

There were many different ways to go about tweaking that. Seems like you guys just chose the easy route of just scrapping it altogether instead of trying to find a middle ground.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Shokio, Dash Canceled Paralyzer certainly had counterplay in 3.02 because of how poor her grab was. In 3.5, if she still had it, she would be capable of a very dangerous RPS despite committing very little to it. Paralyzer -> Dash -> JC grab

We've been over this a few times already: changing the grab is where the PMDT went off the rails with ZSS. Revert the grab, revert paralyzer, then make whatever subtle changes (such as clankable paralyzer and/or slightly delayed dash cancel frames) are necessary to satisfy the 3.5 design philosophy.

Yes, we are okay with the old grab. Does it have limitations? Yes. Does it have some benefits too? Yes. Does it permit you to reinstate a beautifully designed mechanic that enhances her fundamental design? Yes.

ZSS #1 strength is her mobility, it's part of the core of her character. The removal of the lasers killed part of the character. Nerfs and tweaks should tone down a character, not damage who they are.

Quoted for ****ing truth.

 

[Foo]

Shokio, Dash Canceled Paralyzer certainly had counterplay in 3.02 because of how poor her grab was. In 3.5, if she still had it, she would be capable of a very dangerous RPS despite committing very little to it. Paralyzer -> Dash -> JC grab, even if they roll, they don't get to punish, and in most cases have just put themselves in a worse position from which they will be pressured by more paralyzers. It would not be possible to punish her grab on whiff with her new grabs after rolling to avoid them, unlike 3.02. Dash canceled special moves are also reasonably weird and un-smash-like, so it was tough to justify keeping during this design shift. Perhaps this would be balanced in the long-run, but the PMDT have learned the hard way that it's much better to be safe, than sorry, in these types of situations.

@Roxas215 I understand that it may be frustrating for a character that wasn't perceived as "too good" to be changed. However, we in the PMDT decided that for 3.5, we would shift our focus to the character's attacks and how they individually fit into our design goals, rather than make changes based on the character they were attached to (and in doing so, only properly adjusting the top ~half of the cast). You may think, "ZSS wasn't winning majors, what's up with the nerfs?" yet she still had moves and properties that did not fit with our design goals, and were thus changed. This was the best way we could remain unbiased and truly make progress toward our goal of a balanced cast that is in line with our goals, by trimming the fat from all characters. This is why I applied a significant amount of nerfs to Donkey Kong; while his entire kit was balanced in the context of the cast, his individual attributes and the resultant gameplay was not.

Here's what I don't understand. WHY WHY WHY does her grab HAVE to change? All of the logic is "Well, since her grab..."

It's been stated by devs that the grab was changed to "better fit her character" but what's the point in that? YOU TOOK AWAY WHAT HER CHARACTER WAS IN ORDER TO FIT IT IN!

Why can't we have 3.02 grab back along with restoration of things that her new grab made too good, like her throws and dash cancel laser?

Surely you must see that changing a character's move to "better fit her character" and then removing half of that characters signature features to compensate is a complete and utter farce.

Also, her dash cancel blaster "not being smashlike" is a joke. You know what's smash like? A quick, transcendent, spammable, lagless projectile with infinite range. You know what's smashlike? A frame 1 move that can be quickly jump canceled that combos into anything, including itself. You know what's smashlike? A quick kill move that come out very fast and kill as low as 40%, is safe on shield and can be combo'd into. You know what's smashlike? A frame 3 smash that covers all directions, kill off the side at 90, and is safe on any characters shield.

Apparently, what's not smashlike is a mediocre projectile with a mechanic that wasn't in melee. If you want to make it smashlike, just make it completely lagless. Problem solved.

 

[Shokio]

Here's what I don't understand. WHY WHY WHY does her grab HAVE to change? All of the logic is "Well, since her grab..."

It's been stated by devs that the grab was changed to "better fit her character" but what's the point in that? YOU TOOK AWAY WHAT HER CHARACTER WAS TO FIT IT IN!

Why can't we have 3.02 grab back along with restoration of things that her new grab made too good, like her throws and dash cancel laser.

Surely you must see that changing a characters move to "better fit her character" and then removing half of that characters signature features to compensate is a complete and utter farce.

I always thought having a normal grab would be dope for her, but honestly, if having a normal grab means she can't have follow-ups anymore (although the rest of the roster still does......<_<), I'd rather have the tether grab back, definitely.

Based off what some Dev Team members have said, it seems like no budging is really going to be done. They seem pretty adamant that they've done the right thing, so I don't think we'll get any in-betweens. In that case, I'd rather have the whole 3.02 reverted than for her to stay in her current 3.5 state.

Literally, the only problems with ZSS were moves that didn't function properly. Fair needed to actually link, and Up Smash's hitboxes needed to actually link. That was literally all we needed.

It really just seems like the Dev Team completely over-thought ZSS. I literally expected her changelog to contain 2-4 changes, but boy was I off. She was just such a simple character to understand, or so I thought. It's almost as if everyone involved in ZSS's changes killed her because non of them played ZSS, or actually understood her (despite Sheen saying he did play her). I wouldn't surprise me if that's truly the case, because she was a pretty unpopular character outside of Oro, Vixen, Xaltis, Numerics, and myself.

I don't think the Dev Team understood her at all, thus, the unnecessary, strange changes. I don't think anyone who didn't play ZSS on the regular truly understands what has been done to her. Most people I've seen say that they liked her now, have admitted that they didn't play her before.

I'd be down for a 3.02 ZSS that has her Fair and Up Smash fixed. And if the Dev Team wants to keep some nerfs for fixes, then by all means keep the dair nerf, the down b distance nerf, the divekick endlag, and the universal tether nerf. Would that be asking for too much?

You know what's smash like? A quick, transcendent, spammable, lagless projectile with infinite range. You know what's smashlike? A frame 1 move that can be quickly jump canceled that combos into anything, including itself.

Exactly lol. Spot-on. ZSS's dash cancel gets removed due to it's pressure, but Falco's lasers are left in-tact? Oh, it's because the lasers are too integral to his character? Wait, integral........dash cancel....ZSS.....mobility......whoops.

 

[Foo]

@ Shokio 100% in agreement. Give us 3.02 ZSS with fixed fair, fixed upsmash and the nerfs that were just tweaks. Make her projectile clank, make her down-b and tether shorter, nerf the dive kick, make nair a slightly worse combo tool, go nuts.

We just want to play the same character that we played in 3.02, the same way everyone else gets to keep their character. I've looked all over the changelogs and I've seen no other character get so fundamentally changed.

I keep saying this, but I want to make it absolutely clear.

We aren't afraid of nerfs, just revert her old mechanics.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Problem is... Look at how Oro plays ZSS, and from what I saw on reddit he's absolutely ecstatic about the grab change (we know he hated the old grab, so that's not surprising). Frozen's still playing ZSS. Sheen is obviously on board with this, etc. This is what they apparently want from the character.

Contrast that with the crazy, beautiful **** that someone like Numerics does with ZSS. Someone who just loves crazy good mobility, ledge cancel divekick shenanigans, even the tether grab. That's the kind of stuff that gets me excited to play ZSS, the playstyle that 3.5 ZSS should have built upon. But instead of building upon that unique foundation, they put her squarely in the DD/CQC camp and seem determined to keep her that way.

 

[Shokio]

@ Shokio 100% in agreement. Give us 3.02 ZSS with fixed fair, fixed upsmash and the nerfs that were just tweaks. Make her projectile clank, make her down-b and tether shorter, nerf the dive kick, make nair a slightly worse combo tool, go nuts.

We just want to play the same character that we played in 3.02, the same way everyone else gets to keep their character. I've looked all over the changelogs and I've seen no other character get so fundamentally changed.

I keep saying this, but I want to make it absolutely clear.

We aren't afraid of nerfs, just revert her old mechanics.

Yes, I think it's important to clarify that it's not necessarily the nerfs that have us upset (although the throw angles are definitely a nerf and definitely horrendous).

She was never a really good character to begin with, so we're used to her being on the weaker end of the spectrum. Despite that though, she was fun and unique, and I was able to beat Diddy Kongs and Mewtwo's with little ol' low-tier ZSS. Well, she was low-tier IMO, but I loved her anyway.

It's mostly the fact that we can't even play her the same way now. She feels like a shell of her formor self. You can nerf a character and still keep a playstyle fully intact. Lucas was nerfed but he can still go nuts on people's shields, he still has PK Freeze conversions, he still has his combos in Up Smash.

Her core has been replaced and her identity forgotten. That's MOST of the problem here.

 

[mimgrim]

Personally like 3.5 ZSS myself. But then again, I didn't care all that much for 3.02 ZSS.

There was just something I didn't like about 3.02 ZSS but 3.5 feels a lot better.

But I know a lot of people don't agree.

 

[Shokio]

Personally like 3.5 ZSS myself. But then again, I didn't care all that much for 3.02 ZSS.

Most people I've seen say that they liked her now, have admitted that they didn't play her before.

^See? I told you lol.

There was just something I didn't like about 3.02 ZSS but 3.5 feels a lot better.

It's most likely the normal grab and overall engine changes to the game. I like the feel of many characters I previously didn't like either, like Squirtle, but I think he feels great now.

 

[Ripple]

I read this whole thread and am in agreement with shokio. having picked up ZSS at the end of 3.02 and trying her out now, its a whole different character.

 

[Foo]

Yeah, that's something I noticed too. Every character BUT ZSS feels a lot better to me. Falcon and Roy in particular feel a lot... smoother to me, even though I know almost nothing about the actual characters changed.

 

[mimgrim]

But I did play her a little bit in 3.02, mostly when I was fishing for a main (which I am now doing again for 3.5 lol). But ended up not liking the way she felt in 3.02. She just felt so... split in 3.02. I don;t know how to explain it good but it was like she was trying to be multiple things at once and wasn't really "solidified/defined" and I just didn't like the feel of it at all. 3.5 ZSS just feels more "defined" to me and just not as... split.

She is definitely a different character from 3.02 and plays rather differently. But I personally prefer her play style change.

 

[Legit]

Imagine how much salt there would be if they removed jump cancel from shine. Even though I think fox and shine is broken, I wouldn't change it because it's wrong to so fundamentally uproot a character.

This, this, and this.

Also, I'd honestly like to know how one enjoys 3.5 ZSS more than 3.02, ESPECIALLY if you had never really liked 3.02 ZSS. Playing 3.5 ZSS is kind of like playing 3.02 ZSS.... except you're way less mobile and have fewer, less satisfying combos. The only addition is a normal grab. I'm honestly perplexed how it can be possible to prefer playing 3.5 ZSS. Can someone please explain why they prefer 3.5 ZSS? Besides that "she feels better"? How does she feel better?

She just felt so... split in 3.02. I don;t know how to explain it good but it was like she was trying to be multiple things at once and wasn't really "solidified/defined" and I just didn't like the feel of it at all. 3.5 ZSS just feels more "defined" to me and just not as... split.

I don't really agree with her being "split" at all. She was a highly mobile character that specialized in out-maneuvering her opponents to get hits and start combos. If she were "split" as you say, then that would enable you to choose between her "split" playstyles (not entirely sure what you mean by "split" but I'm rolling with it). How can a character that forces you into a certain playstyle be more enjoyable than one more flexible that can fit a variety of roles?

This goes for all you 3.5 ZSS supporters. I want to know why you prefer the new ZSS. I'm not being an ass or trolling, I'm genuinely confused.

 

[mimgrim]

It's hard for me to explain what I mean. General feel of a character is very important to me and can be very nuanced at time but I have a hard time explaining the feel of a character I have. For example, I don't care for Peach in Project M because she feels different from how she is in Melee despite in terms of numbers she is just a buffed Melee Peach and is in actuality quite similar to how she is in Melee but to me she feels off and quite different and I don't really like playing her in Project M. But I can't really explain why.

I just like the general shift in design/playstyle for ZSS from 3.02 to 3.5.

Also c'mon. 3.5 ZSS is not at all like playing 3.02 ZSS. This is the general reason a lot of people dislike 3.5 ZSS compared to 3.02 ZSS, because she received a radical change in playstyle. Read @ InfinityCollision 's posts to see detailed examples of the differences in playstyles between 3.02 ZSS and 3.5 ZSS.

 

[Legit]

Also c'mon. 3.5 ZSS is not at all like playing 3.02 ZSS. This is the general reason a lot of people dislike 3.5 ZSS compared to 3.02 ZSS, because she received a radical change in playstyle. Read @ InfinityCollision 's posts to see detailed examples of the differences in playstyles between 3.02 ZSS and 3.5 ZSS.

This was the point I was trying to get across, but I guess I chose my words incredibly poorly.

I've read this entire thread. I agree 3.5 ZSS is wildly different from 3.02 ZSS. I edited my previous post to not use the phrase "3.5 ZSS is exactly like ...". She is in fact an entirely different breed. What I was actually trying to get across is that 3.5 ZSS feels like a watered down version of her 3.02 self. She has almost exactly the same moveset (except the grab), but the various changes force you to play her in an entirely different, more specific way. That is why I don't see how it's possible to enjoy her more now than before, especially if one had not enjoyed her previously.

 

[JANKX]

After spending some time in the lab with 3.5 ZSS, I've concluded that I'm a bit on the fence with the transition. I love the old design, but I admit I can adjust to all the new tweaks, because a significant portion of her is still fundamentally the same. I don't feel like I've lost so much having to learn a "new character" because the moves are all the same but connect differently, and in many ways I'm exhilarated to find new stuff with all the 3.5 changes.

I'll try to put things into perspective with many Squirtle mains who became really upset with with the nerfed side-b. My friend mains Squirtle and he was super bummed, even though I contested that the essence of Squirtle still remains, his character received subtle buffs all-around, except he can't side-b for days anymore.

ZSS was hit in a similar fashion, except the tweaks were all over the place, a net buff, but something that resulted in a "bland playstyle" amongst so many of us. I wish things could have remained as they were in 3.02, but like the developers said, let's give the new design a chance before we can optimally critique whether or not the changes were for the better. Changes to all the characters were not done in a vacuum, the only problem is that some were hit harder than others.

The new grab still strikes me as "meh" even though chain-grabbing becomes viable in many situations thanks to her dash-dance. But with regards to 3.02, I personally enjoyed the risk involved for whiffing the move, the benefits of having the range of a tether grab, as well as the followups that resulted from grabs. I'm pretty well set with the new trajectories, which I'm sure were done to reduce the effect of auto-combos and to smooth out matchups with characters that lost to her in the neutral game.

DCP... what can I say, I really miss this thing. To me, the quick mobility out of a slow projectile was a defining aspect of her kit. I can't qualify if it was really OP, but I can admit that many followups felt guaranteed thanks to the feature. They could have nerfed the gun while maintaining the mobility, and I would have been happy. As far as the 3.5 changes, I don't think they're truly rubbish and really balance things out considering she has a faster and more reliable grab now. I've actually been having fun experimenting with aerial b-reversals, charging the gun from various jump heights while steering laterally, and so forth. I think the main thing that people are upset about is that now you have to commit to the move, and this is the main issue with the Squirtle side-b nerf (with how you can't change directions anymore). In both of these cases, as well as a more extreme case known as Zelda's Din's Fire, these options were either too safe, too easy to execute, offered too much stage control, or any combination of those factors. With all that in consideration, I've become more open to all the new 3.5 stuff.

In a perfect world, I'd love to still have the old 3.05 gun tricks and tether, optimally nerfed, and enabled via a taunt-toggle like regular Samus. This is because I still love the old mechanics, even though I'm beginning to enjoy the new mechanics. I know this might be an unlikely outcome, but honestly the best compromise I can think of.

 

[Shokio]

I seriously don't know where people are getting this auto-combo out of grabs thing from. I'll say it again, ZSS had one of the fairest grab games in 3.02, and no, I'm not talking simply about how hard it was to get a grab. Her grabs were fairly DI-able.

The only time she got a guaranteed follow-up at higher percents, was when someone DI'd incorrectly, and in that case, shouldn't people get punished for improper DI? That's what happens when the rest of the roster down throws or up throws.......they get follow ups if improper DI is used. Why is ZSS being excluded from that?

(Yes you could say that she has follow-ups if she's DI'd incorrectly against as well, but here's the thing: There's not a reason for anyone to DI toward ZSS......not anymore. Her up-throw doesn't throw behind her anymore, it throws in front of her, along with the down throw. So both throws are forward.......all people have to do is hold away and they're literally free.)

Must I list every character that has guaranteed follow ups out of their down or up throws, or both?

1. Link - Can down throw someone at literally 200%, and Fair, Dair, or Uair....literally anything he wants. WTF.
2. Mario - Dthrow into Fair. Up throw chain grabs. Up-Throw into Fair for fast-faller.
3. Olimar - Has Dthrow into Fair at fairly high percents with Blue Pikmin, even higher with Whites.
4. Bowser - UpThrow into down-B JC -> Fair on most of the roster.
5. Diddy - Down throw into Fair if not DI'd correctly, Up Throw chain grabs, Up throw into up airs.
6. Wario - Up Throw chain grabs, Up throw into Up-air
7. Fox - Up throw into Up air, of course, and at kill percents.
8. Shiek - Down throw into Fair, Up throw chain grabs.
9. Luigi - Down throw into Up Smash, up-tilt, Nair, etc.
10. Yoshi - Dthrow combos into whatever you want it to at 150% and up.
11. Wolf - If you do the wrong DI for either the down or back throw, it's a guaranteed Wolf Flash.
12. G&W - Forward or back throw into anything at lower percents, up-throw into up-B into Nair or Fair at higher percents.
13. Zelda - Chain grabs fast-fallers well with Up-throw, has guaranteed lighting kick if you try to survival DI for a back throw.
14. Toon Link - His down throw is almost as potent as Link's. Up-B is a guaranteed follow up out of down throw. Bair or Fair too.
15. Ganon - Has a nasty chain grabs on lots of people with his down throw, combos crazy-well into Bair even at really high percents.
16. Mewtwo - His grab game isn't as good as everyone else's, but even he can chain grab fast-fallers easily with Up-Throw
17. Lucario - Down throw into Nair is always a thing if you're DI'ing towards him, Up throw chain grabs.
18. Pikachu - Down throw isn't nearly as good as it used to be, but at least he still has his Up-Throw chains.
19. DK - I'm sure I don't have to say anything here.
20. Jiggs - Down or up throw into rest on fast fallers.
21. Ivy - Up or down throw into Up-B (though I heard one of these got nerfed?)
22. DDD - Can chain grab fast fallers with Up throw.
23. Falcon - Has the freakin KNEE, the greatest follow-up in Smash history, out of both Up and down throw. Can knee practically ANYONE at ANY percent out of down throw thanks to fast-fall speed and drop-zoning, Up-throw into knee on fast-fallers at very high percents.
24. Lucas - Up smash (and DACUS) out of down throw. It's been nerfed a bit but definitely still a 100% thing is there's improper DI.
25. Pit - His down throw has definitely been nerfed, but he still has decent follow-ups. Up throw chain grabs FF's.
26. Marth - Free tippers on improper DI.
27. Roy - Gets a Flare Blade if you use a down throw and they're DI'ing for a Fthrow. Vice versa.
28. Snake - Chain grabs like a motherf***er. Up throw to Up air to C4......down throw is literally THE best throw for tech chases......this dude has THREE amazing throws!
29. Ike - Fthrow into Fair at kill percentages. QuickDraw JC can be used to extend potency too.
30. Squirtle - Fthrow sets up for a Fair if you DI behind him, has a kill throw with Dthrow.
31. Ness - Down throw is still very potent for Bair or Fair follow-ups.
32. Sonic - Up throw chain grabs fast fallers.
33. Samus - Dthrow into UpSmash w/ ice form. Can wavedash forward to follow-up with they get too far away.
34. Charizard - Has no combo throws, yes, but has a kill throw as well a a throw that is sets up for EASY tech chases.
35. Kirby - Isn't busted like it used to be, but down throw put them low, RIGHT in front of you, perfect for tech chases. Up-throw into Side cutter is still a thing.
36. Metaknight - Up-throw can set up for many things. Down throw combos into down B.
37. Ice Climbers - Duh

That's 37 characters that have GREAT grab games, out of 40 total (not including ZSS). At first I thought I was exaggerating, but holy crap, after literally going through each character, my statement about the WHOLE roster having great to guaranteed follow-ups is essentially true.

So I'll ask again, why can't she have good follow-ups out of her grabs?

 

[Shokio]

And sorry that I've talked so much, I apologize if I'm coming off as abrasive. That's not my intention at all. Trust, I'm not angrily glaring at my screen, pounding away at my keyboard lol. I'm just really trying to drive the point here, I like to be thorough with my arguments and explanations.

 

[Ouroboro]

Her grab game might be inproved if there wasn't those awkward lag frames that are there basically so her grab isnt too powerful.... which means we have to tech chase into the higher percents before we can combo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Toon Link - His down throw is almost as potent as Link's. Up-B is a guaranteed follow up out of down throw. Bair or Fair too.

Yo, I think I agree with you re: ZSS's homogenization (though I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other); but just wanted to pop in and correct this. Tink's dthrow has been nerfed in much the same way as Sheik's NTSC Melee dthrow -- it no longer has guaranteed followups all the time; and is now a DI mixup with fthrow.

 

[Oro?!]

I'm sorry I have not been here for the weekend and release of Project M 3.5. I am currently reading the thread, tags, and concerns and will try to address things in a timely manner. Any questions about design direction or decisions, as well as any general ZSS or smash questions can be appointed at any time. That is all.

 

[Spazzy]

I hate zss

 

[Oro?!]

Tilts
-Utilt:
--2nd hit damage: 6 -> 8, KBG: 120 ->100
-Down tilt:
--Damage: 6 -> 7, BKB: 45 -> 30, KBG: 110 -> 105

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Strong/Weak/Whip (strong)/Whip (weak) hitboxes:
--BKB: 45/30/45/128 -> 30/20/25/40, KBG: 96/100/(96/100)/16 -> 105/110/(105/110)/100
-Up Smash:
--Size decreased. Hitlag/SDI -> 1x/1x. Hits fewer times.
-Down Smash:
--Damage: 11 -> 8, BKB: 75 -> 73, KBG: 20 -> 30, Hitlag: 1x -> 0.8x
--Doesn't preserve as much momentum on startup

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Damage: 10 -> 12, BKB: 40 -> 25, size decreased.
-Down Aerial
--IASA: 11 -> 14
--Sweetspot: Hitlag: 0.5x -> 1x (+0 -> -7 on shield), BKB: 64 -> 70.
--Late hit: KBG: 90 -> 64
--Removed ground only meteor hitboxes
-Forward Aerial
--Reduced KB on 1st hit and tweaked hitbox size/angles to connect to the 2nd hit more reliably
--2nd hit no longer decays in damage.

Grabs/Throws
--All grabs replaced by non-tether grabs.
--Up Throw: Angle: 93 -> 82, BKB 75 -> 65, KBG: 90 -> 115 IASA: 32 -> 39
--Down Throw: Angle: 80 -> 60, BKB: 70 -> 68, KBG: 100 -> 78, IASA 49 -> 54, now weight dependent

Specials
-Neutral Special (Paralyzer)
--Dash cancel removed.
--Startup: 20 -> 16.
--Aerial blaster fully driftable/fastfallable at all times.
--Uncharged shot is now clankable.
--Uncharged laser speed: 2.1 -> 2.6
--Charged laser speed: 1.5 -> 2.25
-Forward Special (Plasma Whip)
--1st hit: hitlag/SDI all normalized to 1x/1x, damage: 3 -> 4, angle and KB tweaked

to combo into the 2nd hit, but can be crouch cancelled.
-Up Special (Plasma Wire)
--Size decreased
--Ledge grab window begins: 21 -> 12
-Down Special (Flip Jump)
--Horizontal momentum decreased
--Divekick sweetspot: KBG: 88 -> 100, Duration -1
--Divekick landing lag: 30 -> 40

Others
-Jab 1+2
--Now have KBG instead of weight dependent knockback
-Jab 3:
--Damage: 9 -> 10, BKB: 45 -> 50, KBG: 100 -> 70
-Dash Attack:
--Sweetspot damage: 9 -> 10, KBG: 70 -> 64
-Ledge Attack at over 100%:
--Invincibility terminates 2 frames before it hits

This is what we are working with. I want to preface by saying that regardless of Blaster and Grab changes, every other change was going to happen no matter what for 3.5. The reason was a global cleanup across the cast of massive hitboxes, early IASA/endlag making moves rediculously fast and spammable, insanely high BKB making moves always combo basically, and SDI/hitlag multipliers being normalized so that multihit moves have at least some sort of counterplay or escapability.

Now, the elephant in the room is the removal of dash cancel on laser and the addition of a regular grab. What most people seem upset about, is in fact just the laser. There were many steps taken in order to make the dash cancel attempt to fit and be balanced, but nothing significant enough to keep the cancel. Some of those things included speeding up the blaster shot significantly which neglected any follow ups from it basically, slowing down the blaster start up, and making the cancel later which felt unintuitive as well. Honestly the cancel could have been removed regardless of what happened to her grab. Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work. The fact of the matter is, laser was changed significantly. Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield. That is a very polarized and unintuitive situation in my book. By increasing the speed of tether or by giving ZSS a regular grab, that awkward situation becomes a free grab for ZSS while her opponent is still in shield stun. Even with keeping the old tether speed, several adjustments needed to be made in order for just laser->grab to not be a true block string from cross stage. Trust me, I tested several things in order to try to keep the dash cancel in tact, but it just was not worth it in the end.

Not every projectile needs a cancel. A projectile can be very useful and effective while having no cancel whatsoever. Sure her uncharged blaster doesn't combo anymore, and it can be difficult to set up combos out of the full charged blaster, but it is still a very good disrupt and was given a few things to make it more appealing in 3.5. A faster blaster means that ZSS has one of the faster projectiles in the game. She received a 20% frame decrease on startup. That is pretty significant in my opinion. In addition, the ability to fully drift and fast fall makes you unable to get in those "I'm stuck" situations after you do a full momentum laser off stage or something. I understand that these changes mean the character is not laser-centric anymore, but a lot of the cast are not projectile heavy any longer. Sure a few characters are that fit that niche such as Link or Toon Link, but it is no longer a battle of crazy projectiles and struggling to find an opening for 30 seconds.

In regards to specifically her throws. With the changes to ZSS' grab there were some problems with her current throws. Upon either decreasing the start up on tether or turning her grab into a regular grab, the old throws were seen chaingrabbing a majority of the cast for a long time (Think Ganondorf but worse). So it became pretty evident that something needed to be done to her throws. While her throws do not combo every character at every percent, they do have quite a lot of combo utility. What is going to be very important going forward is determining your opponents percentage along with their weight and fall speed to determine the best course of action regarding throws. There are characters you can combo out of dthrow. There are characters you can combo out of uthrow. There are also percents wher the smartest thing might be to use that outward DI your opponent is using at the ledge and fthrowing to set up an edgeguard.

I will address anything else people want to discuss. Let's keep this civil and try to look at the potential of the character in 3.5. I don't think she has been changed so drastically as is being stated.

@ Shokio @ Ouroboro @ Foo @ InfinityCollision

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I am here for the salt

 

[wangston]

@ Oro?! So with all of the changes are you still going to main ZSS? I ask because I watched you WC tourney matches every week to learn knew things and combo strings.

I'm actually really liking her back throw and forward throw off stage, it has resulted in very early kills with a a well timed down smash or f-air. I love what has happened to dtilt and fair, it's almost like shieks ftlit to fair combos now. So why did they change her down smash to not slide as much? My guess is because it made it too easy to cover tech options .

 

[Legit]

Tilts
-Utilt:
--2nd hit damage: 6 -> 8, KBG: 120 ->100
-Down tilt:
--Damage: 6 -> 7, BKB: 45 -> 30, KBG: 110 -> 105

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Strong/Weak/Whip (strong)/Whip (weak) hitboxes:
--BKB: 45/30/45/128 -> 30/20/25/40, KBG: 96/100/(96/100)/16 -> 105/110/(105/110)/100
-Up Smash:
--Size decreased. Hitlag/SDI -> 1x/1x. Hits fewer times.
-Down Smash:
--Damage: 11 -> 8, BKB: 75 -> 73, KBG: 20 -> 30, Hitlag: 1x -> 0.8x
--Doesn't preserve as much momentum on startup

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Damage: 10 -> 12, BKB: 40 -> 25, size decreased.
-Down Aerial
--IASA: 11 -> 14
--Sweetspot: Hitlag: 0.5x -> 1x (+0 -> -7 on shield), BKB: 64 -> 70.
--Late hit: KBG: 90 -> 64
--Removed ground only meteor hitboxes
-Forward Aerial
--Reduced KB on 1st hit and tweaked hitbox size/angles to connect to the 2nd hit more reliably
--2nd hit no longer decays in damage.

Grabs/Throws
--All grabs replaced by non-tether grabs.
--Up Throw: Angle: 93 -> 82, BKB 75 -> 65, KBG: 90 -> 115 IASA: 32 -> 39
--Down Throw: Angle: 80 -> 60, BKB: 70 -> 68, KBG: 100 -> 78, IASA 49 -> 54, now weight dependent

Specials
-Neutral Special (Paralyzer)
--Dash cancel removed.
--Startup: 20 -> 16.
--Aerial blaster fully driftable/fastfallable at all times.
--Uncharged shot is now clankable.
--Uncharged laser speed: 2.1 -> 2.6
--Charged laser speed: 1.5 -> 2.25
-Forward Special (Plasma Whip)
--1st hit: hitlag/SDI all normalized to 1x/1x, damage: 3 -> 4, angle and KB tweaked

to combo into the 2nd hit, but can be crouch cancelled.
-Up Special (Plasma Wire)
--Size decreased
--Ledge grab window begins: 21 -> 12
-Down Special (Flip Jump)
--Horizontal momentum decreased
--Divekick sweetspot: KBG: 88 -> 100, Duration -1
--Divekick landing lag: 30 -> 40

Others
-Jab 1+2
--Now have KBG instead of weight dependent knockback
-Jab 3:
--Damage: 9 -> 10, BKB: 45 -> 50, KBG: 100 -> 70
-Dash Attack:
--Sweetspot damage: 9 -> 10, KBG: 70 -> 64
-Ledge Attack at over 100%:
--Invincibility terminates 2 frames before it hits

This is what we are working with. I want to preface by saying that regardless of Blaster and Grab changes, every other change was going to happen no matter what for 3.5. The reason was a global cleanup across the cast of massive hitboxes, early IASA/endlag making moves rediculously fast and spammable, insanely high BKB making moves always combo basically, and SDI/hitlag multipliers being normalized so that multihit moves have at least some sort of counterplay or escapability.

Now, the elephant in the room is the removal of dash cancel on laser and the addition of a regular grab. What most people seem upset about, is in fact just the laser. There were many steps taken in order to make the dash cancel attempt to fit and be balanced, but nothing significant enough to keep the cancel. Some of those things included speeding up the blaster shot significantly which neglected any follow ups from it basically, slowing down the blaster start up, and making the cancel later which felt unintuitive as well. Honestly the cancel could have been removed regardless of what happened to her grab. Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work. The fact of the matter is, laser was changed significantly. Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield. That is a very polarized and unintuitive situation in my book. By increasing the speed of tether or by giving ZSS a regular grab, that awkward situation becomes a free grab for ZSS while her opponent is still in shield stun. Even with keeping the old tether speed, several adjustments needed to be made in order for just laser->grab to not be a true block string from cross stage. Trust me, I tested several things in order to try to keep the dash cancel in tact, but it just was not worth it in the end.

Not every projectile needs a cancel. A projectile can be very useful and effective while having no cancel whatsoever. Sure her uncharged blaster doesn't combo anymore, and it can be difficult to set up combos out of the full charged blaster, but it is still a very good disrupt and was given a few things to make it more appealing in 3.5. A faster blaster means that ZSS has one of the faster projectiles in the game. She received a 20% frame decrease on startup. That is pretty significant in my opinion. In addition, the ability to fully drift and fast fall makes you unable to get in those "I'm stuck" situations after you do a full momentum laser off stage or something. I understand that these changes mean the character is not laser-centric anymore, but a lot of the cast are not projectile heavy any longer. Sure a few characters are that fit that niche such as Link or Toon Link, but it is no longer a battle of crazy projectiles and struggling to find an opening for 30 seconds.

In regards to specifically her throws. With the changes to ZSS' grab there were some problems with her current throws. Upon either decreasing the start up on tether or turning her grab into a regular grab, the old throws were seen chaingrabbing a majority of the cast for a long time (Think Ganondorf but worse). So it became pretty evident that something needed to be done to her throws. While her throws do not combo every character at every percent, they do have quite a lot of combo utility. What is going to be very important going forward is determining your opponents percentage along with their weight and fall speed to determine the best course of action regarding throws. There are characters you can combo out of dthrow. There are characters you can combo out of uthrow. There are also percents wher the smartest thing might be to use that outward DI your opponent is using at the ledge and fthrowing to set up an edgeguard.

I will address anything else people want to discuss. Let's keep this civil and try to look at the potential of the character in 3.5. I don't think she has been changed so drastically as is being stated.

@ Shokio @ Ouroboro @ Foo @ InfinityCollision

Thank you for the response @ Oro?! .

For starters, I, as well as many others, do see some potential in 3.5 ZSS. We're not saying she's a bad character. I think the majority of us are okay with the non-blaster/grab changes that came with 3.5. I won't list them again as they've been mentioned many times throughout the thread and you seem to have already read it. I think the common sentiment is that with the removal of DCP (the big issue, obviously) and the changes to her throws make her feel too different and much less enjoyable to a lot of us. Since your post seemed to hint at more of a balance issue, I'll focus on that.

Here are a couple things I wish to have clarified after reading your post:

Honestly the cancel could have been removed regardless of what happened to her grab. Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. You say a character should be examined in a vacuum.... but also see how they interact with the rest of the cast. The rest of the cast isn't in a vacuum, though... The way you can tell how a move such as paralyzer "should" work is by comparing it to how similar moves from other characters work, not by viewing them in a vacuum. Having DCP fit with her character archetype perfectly and was not an overpowered tactic by any means when compared to the rest of the cast's tools.

The fact of the matter is, laser was changed significantly. Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield. That is a very polarized and unintuitive situation in my book.

With the current state of laser, uncharged shot, while being a disrupt, is pretty useless now considering we can't follow it up like many other characters can (Falco, Mario, Ivysaur... even Pikachu with an aerial tjolt while moving forward). A charged shot has too much startup to ever land on an aware opponent. As it stands, laser seems like it is now something that a lot of characters can deal with, but ZSS still can't profit off of due to the lack of dash cancel.

As far as her throws go, as stated before, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that old throws + new grab = OP. DCP + new grab also = OP. That's why we're willing to forego that in favor of her old grab/throws. I played ZSS the entire weekend, and found that ALL of her throws were tech chases until mid-high %, where I could only followup if my opponent had poor DI. Since uthrow and dthrow are no longer DI mixups, at mid% or higher all they have to do is DI away, and it is no longer a tech chase OR a followup. All we get is a throw. We can't convert paralyzer or grabs into combos anymore, so our neutral game consists of poking with paralyzer, spacing bairs, and hoping they jump so we can connect an uair to start a string. It just feels so..... basic.

I hope I'm not coming off as brash or offensive in any way, these are just legitimate concerns I have with the character and I'm hoping you can address them. Thanks again

 

[Tweedle]

I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

Her Nair was fairly easy to DI out of. All you have to do is hold down and away. I remember the last time I played Oracle, when he was using Charizard (AKA, easy to combo horizontally), it was hard for me to get even a 2nd Nair because he was DI'ing straight out of the strings. Yeah, sometimes you could string 4 Nair's on people, but really it was only because people wouldn't DI it.

The problem with how they developed ZSS and a few other chars, is that they got FIXES mixed up with buffs. This is an excerpt of a post I made in the DFW FB page, it'll explain what I mean:


"I feel like the Dev Team FORCEFULLY made changes to certain characters just so they can say that they did so. Wolf, for instance, got a whole bunch of random frames added to the endlag of various moves. Why? Was something wrong with Wolf? Who was complaining about him? There were some characters in this game who only needed 2-3 tweaks, (not even buffs or nerfs, but tweaks), but the DT decided to alter aspects that were completely fine just for the hell of it.

- The PMDT seems to have FIXES, mixed up with buffs. Yes, technically, a fix could be looked at as a buff considering the simple fact that a fix makes a character better, but here's the thing: If something got FIXED, that means that previously, it was BAD or not functioning properly. Therefor, *fixed* issues do not need parallel nerfs in order to try to "balance them", cause those issues were holding the character back in the first place - they were never fine. Ganon's hover is a buff, because it is not a fix of anything, it's just icing on the cake. Zero's Suits UpSmash connecting properly with it's hitboxes now was not a buff, it was a fix, so the DT didn't have to reduce the size of the attack (not that big of a deal, just an example) in order to "balance" that out.

The problem that this creates, is that now lower-tiered characters have remained in their spots, or gone even lower, because for every FIX, they received an unwarranted nerf. But when you FIX something, you are bringing it to NORMALITY. A character should not be punished for having a move *corrected*."

The #6 you listed is exactly what I mean. They had the mindset that they needed to NERF something just because of a FIX they did. That is not fair and bad design. ZSS with her FIXES would've been a perfectly mid-tier character, because she wasn't perfectly mid-tier to begin with, she was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. Fixes should not warrant nerfs, and like I said in my FB posts, a lot of the changes are JUST CAUSE.

Also: I just came back from another Smash fest. The more I play ZSS the more disappointed I am.

Got to agree, changes just to make changes.

 

[Oro?!]

@ Legit I meant that you should examine the move in a vacuum. Basically to examine the move in a vacuum, you have to see how the entire cast interacts with it. It's probably not the best way to describe the process used to determine what is exactly wrong with the dash cancel, but it was what came to mind. The point I was trying to make was simply that regardless of what type of grab+throw ZSS has or what you do to dash cancel to make it worse, problems with balancing the mechanic will arise.

If there was an ultimatum that said laser will not be reverted, would you still want the tether grab and previous throw iterations?

I am fine debating these changes tastefully and I appreciate the manner in which you constructed your argument.

@ wangston yes I plan on still playing her in 3.5

 

[Yeroc]

With the current state of laser, uncharged shot, while being a disrupt, is pretty useless now considering we can't follow it up like many other characters can (Falco, Mario, Ivysaur... even Pikachu with an aerial tjolt while moving forward). A charged shot has too much startup to ever land on an aware opponent. As it stands, laser seems like it is now something that a lot of characters can deal with, but ZSS still can't profit off of due to the lack of dash cancel.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I just want to point out that aside from Falco, ZSS's paralyzers actually have less cooldown than every character you've listed. In fact, I'm actually sure it has the lowest cooldown of any non-cancelable projectile in the game. Like what Oro said, we should examine how characters' movesets work in a vacuum, but the data speaks for itself. She's still got higher mobility and lower commitment on her projectile than any other character. Just because you haven't yet found a use for the move compared to how potent it was a specific things in 3.02 doesn't mean people won't eventually find uses for it.

 

[Ouroboro]

From the dev teams point of view, how do you envision this new zss should play?

 

[Oro?!]

There is no right or wrong way to play. You can still play the same way you used to, you just lost the dash cancel mechanic.

 

[JANKX]

I'm really enjoying watching this debate unfold. I'm somewhat disappointed that I'm starting to get more used with the new changes, but honestly I've become open to just about anything at this point. If some kind of compromise can be made between the conservative wing (3.02) and the progressive wing (3.5), I'll be really excited if all parties can be satisfied. I've got a few suggestions:

With the current state of laser, uncharged shot, while being a disrupt, is pretty useless now considering we can't follow it up like many other characters can (Falco, Mario, Ivysaur... even Pikachu with an aerial tjolt while moving forward). A charged shot has too much startup to ever land on an aware opponent. As it stands, laser seems like it is now something that a lot of characters can deal with, but ZSS still can't profit off of due to the lack of dash cancel.

What if the uncharged shot could be dash-cancelled, while the charged shot maintains the cooldown? I think that could lead to fun interactions between the ZSS and the opponent if it could be balanced so that it does not create a one-sided affair (i.e. spot-dodging the uncharged shot can punish ZSS above a certain distance threshold, while power-shielding will always punish ZSS). Also, I don't think the charged shot is useless, you'll have to mixup your aerial mobility options during the charge with shorthop/fullhop with aerial drifts and b-reversals. Be creative and unpredictable with the charged shot and you'll get more mileage.

As far as her throws go, as stated before, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that old throws + new grab = OP. DCP + new grab also = OP. That's why we're willing to forego that in favor of her old grab/throws. I played ZSS the entire weekend, and found that ALL of her throws were tech chases until mid-high %, where I could only followup if my opponent had poor DI. Since uthrow and dthrow are no longer DI mixups, at mid% or higher all they have to do is DI away, and it is no longer a tech chase OR a followup. All we get is a throw.

I'm with you that the throws could be modified so that there's some kind of mixup. DI away all the time is going to be OP, and I wish that the trajectories could be changed to feel more interactive. I'm no expert on this matter as far as specifics, but it seems like if there's any probable change to 3.5 ZSS it would be this, tether or no tether.

We can't convert paralyzer or grabs into combos anymore, so our neutral game consists of poking with paralyzer, spacing bairs, and hoping they jump so we can connect an uair to start a string. It just feels so..... basic.

I agree that ZSS feels a lot more like a poking character in 3.5. If people want more combos, I'm wondering now if the outer-most hitboxes in nair (like a tipper) could have less damage, and have the trajectory pull the character inward so that a followup could be made. This would lead to a more interesting combo game since you'd have to space aerials properly in order to do so.

Also, I find it quite interesting that not a lot of people talk much about fair. @ Oro?! I watched your Smash 101 video on ZSS and I think you said fair was her worst move. When I first picked up ZSS, I actually learned to time the 2nd hit of fair before I learned that bair was the a lot more direct approach for horizontal knockback, and eventually I learned how to interchange both aerials as a mixup. I'm almost disappointed that two hits connect, because I think the 1st weak hit has potential to be a combo tool, much like my proposed "tipper nair" that I mentioned earlier. Imagine using a SHFFL nair to push the opponent above you as a combo starter.

Perhaps implementing every single of my suggestions would probably give too much combo strength to ZSS, but if anything I'd love to see a dash cancel for uncharged paralyzer, as well adding a little bit of spice to her aerials such as a "tipper nair" to make her aerial combo game more interesting than uair strings. Although I applaud the balance and mechanics changes for most of 3.5, I don't think Falcon/Shiek is as fun as the potential of having a little more variety to her kit.

 

[Shokio]

Just got off work. Ill reply to Oro once I get home.

With all due respect, the PR-like responses from some the Dev Team members here are disappointing. Hardly any specifics are used, mostly vague and unclear mission statements.

Which makes perfect sense, considering that 3.5 ZSS feels like exactly that: A cluster of weird, unclear, unfinished thoughts.

 

[Ouroboro]

I've tried to play the same way I used too,I've tried to use dash dance baiting pivot down smashes.which work fine, but then when I try to chain nairs, i can't. Im trying to figure out new combos, but i just don't see them. Spaced bairs work as they always have, nair jab is somewhat safe of an approach tool. I can get the hits like i used too, the same ways, minus laser dsmash, or laser grab, but once i get that hit, nothing seems to happen. I feel like I'm playing Smash 4. occasional combos, better movement options, and just a buncha baiting, reads, and trying to edge guard. I don't know where my combos are anymore, and i guess i'm just frustrated. Maybe once i see other zss' in action i'll get a better handle on what i should be doing, I'm a scrub like that I guess.

 

[Shokio]

Tilts
-Utilt:
--2nd hit damage: 6 -> 8, KBG: 120 ->100
-Down tilt:
--Damage: 6 -> 7, BKB: 45 -> 30, KBG: 110 -> 105

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Strong/Weak/Whip (strong)/Whip (weak) hitboxes:
--BKB: 45/30/45/128 -> 30/20/25/40, KBG: 96/100/(96/100)/16 -> 105/110/(105/110)/100
-Up Smash:
--Size decreased. Hitlag/SDI -> 1x/1x. Hits fewer times.
-Down Smash:
--Damage: 11 -> 8, BKB: 75 -> 73, KBG: 20 -> 30, Hitlag: 1x -> 0.8x
--Doesn't preserve as much momentum on startup

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Damage: 10 -> 12, BKB: 40 -> 25, size decreased.
-Down Aerial
--IASA: 11 -> 14
--Sweetspot: Hitlag: 0.5x -> 1x (+0 -> -7 on shield), BKB: 64 -> 70.
--Late hit: KBG: 90 -> 64
--Removed ground only meteor hitboxes
-Forward Aerial
--Reduced KB on 1st hit and tweaked hitbox size/angles to connect to the 2nd hit more reliably
--2nd hit no longer decays in damage.

Grabs/Throws
--All grabs replaced by non-tether grabs.
--Up Throw: Angle: 93 -> 82, BKB 75 -> 65, KBG: 90 -> 115 IASA: 32 -> 39
--Down Throw: Angle: 80 -> 60, BKB: 70 -> 68, KBG: 100 -> 78, IASA 49 -> 54, now weight dependent

Specials
-Neutral Special (Paralyzer)
--Dash cancel removed.
--Startup: 20 -> 16.
--Aerial blaster fully driftable/fastfallable at all times.
--Uncharged shot is now clankable.
--Uncharged laser speed: 2.1 -> 2.6
--Charged laser speed: 1.5 -> 2.25
-Forward Special (Plasma Whip)
--1st hit: hitlag/SDI all normalized to 1x/1x, damage: 3 -> 4, angle and KB tweaked

to combo into the 2nd hit, but can be crouch cancelled.
-Up Special (Plasma Wire)
--Size decreased
--Ledge grab window begins: 21 -> 12
-Down Special (Flip Jump)
--Horizontal momentum decreased
--Divekick sweetspot: KBG: 88 -> 100, Duration -1
--Divekick landing lag: 30 -> 40

Others
-Jab 1+2
--Now have KBG instead of weight dependent knockback
-Jab 3:
--Damage: 9 -> 10, BKB: 45 -> 50, KBG: 100 -> 70
-Dash Attack:
--Sweetspot damage: 9 -> 10, KBG: 70 -> 64
-Ledge Attack at over 100%:
--Invincibility terminates 2 frames before it hits

This is what we are working with. I want to preface by saying that regardless of Blaster and Grab changes, every other change was going to happen no matter what for 3.5. The reason was a global cleanup across the cast of massive hitboxes, early IASA/endlag making moves rediculously fast and spammable, insanely high BKB making moves always combo basically, and SDI/hitlag multipliers being normalized so that multihit moves have at least some sort of counterplay or escapability.

Now, the elephant in the room is the removal of dash cancel on laser and the addition of a regular grab. What most people seem upset about, is in fact just the laser. There were many steps taken in order to make the dash cancel attempt to fit and be balanced, but nothing significant enough to keep the cancel. Some of those things included speeding up the blaster shot significantly which neglected any follow ups from it basically, slowing down the blaster start up, and making the cancel later which felt unintuitive as well. Honestly the cancel could have been removed regardless of what happened to her grab. Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work. The fact of the matter is, laser was changed significantly. Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield. That is a very polarized and unintuitive situation in my book. By increasing the speed of tether or by giving ZSS a regular grab, that awkward situation becomes a free grab for ZSS while her opponent is still in shield stun. Even with keeping the old tether speed, several adjustments needed to be made in order for just laser->grab to not be a true block string from cross stage. Trust me, I tested several things in order to try to keep the dash cancel in tact, but it just was not worth it in the end.

Not every projectile needs a cancel. A projectile can be very useful and effective while having no cancel whatsoever. Sure her uncharged blaster doesn't combo anymore, and it can be difficult to set up combos out of the full charged blaster, but it is still a very good disrupt and was given a few things to make it more appealing in 3.5. A faster blaster means that ZSS has one of the faster projectiles in the game. She received a 20% frame decrease on startup. That is pretty significant in my opinion. In addition, the ability to fully drift and fast fall makes you unable to get in those "I'm stuck" situations after you do a full momentum laser off stage or something. I understand that these changes mean the character is not laser-centric anymore, but a lot of the cast are not projectile heavy any longer. Sure a few characters are that fit that niche such as Link or Toon Link, but it is no longer a battle of crazy projectiles and struggling to find an opening for 30 seconds.

In regards to specifically her throws. With the changes to ZSS' grab there were some problems with her current throws. Upon either decreasing the start up on tether or turning her grab into a regular grab, the old throws were seen chaingrabbing a majority of the cast for a long time (Think Ganondorf but worse). So it became pretty evident that something needed to be done to her throws. While her throws do not combo every character at every percent, they do have quite a lot of combo utility. What is going to be very important going forward is determining your opponents percentage along with their weight and fall speed to determine the best course of action regarding throws. There are characters you can combo out of dthrow. There are characters you can combo out of uthrow. There are also percents wher the smartest thing might be to use that outward DI your opponent is using at the ledge and fthrowing to set up an edgeguard.

I will address anything else people want to discuss. Let's keep this civil and try to look at the potential of the character in 3.5. I don't think she has been changed so drastically as is being stated.

@ Shokio @ Ouroboro @ Foo @ InfinityCollision

Honestly, I'm most disappointed at her poor grab game now than the DC lasers. Even if the lasers were to stay how they are now (almost usless), I'd be happy if I could just get a Fair/Bair follow up at higher percents with down and up throw, IF they are DI'd incorrectly.

Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work.

You mean how Falco can completely shut down some characters' neutral games thanks to the lasers? I don't understand how you guys can talk about getting rid of polarization, but still keep Falco's lasers in the game. You say think about ZSS's dash cancel in a vacuum, and then you bring up Falco......but if you look at Falco lasers in a vacuum, well.......they're pretty ridiculous and yet, they're still there.

Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield.

I don't understand this part. Firstly, the old laser was short, and didn't travel to full length of stages unless it was Wario Ware or Yoshi's Island and the like. But secondly, the DC paralyzer was too polarizing yet you say she couldn't capitalize on it in the first place? Wouldn't that mean the exact opposite of the first statement? Even with the current grab, due to the new harsh throw angles, she wouldn't be able to capitalize on the lasers much still. So......

A faster blaster means that ZSS has one of the faster projectiles in the game. She received a 20% frame decrease on startup. That is pretty significant in my opinion.

The way I (and others) see it, the faster blaster is actually a NERF. Since they're faster, that means there's a much longer gap between the laser and ZSS, meaning it's much harder to follow-up with them. Wouldn't it made more sense if the laser were kept at their 3.02 speed since the cancel was taken out? If you had more time to run a bit closer with your loser, wouldn't that have been the counteract to the removal of the dash-cancel?

So they're harder to follow up with, and they're clankable. That's 3 significant nerfs (no dash cancel, faster speed, clankable) compared to two MUCH less important buffs (fast-fallable, drift-able). That's not an even trade-off at all.

DC was pretty darn good, yes, but wouldn't have making the laser's clankable have been enough to compensate? Or at least adding clank-ability + faster speed, meaning they can be swatted and they're harder to follow up with, BUT, ZSS still keeps her mobility and fluidity with the DC.

Same principle with her grab. She received one buff (normal grab), but to off-set that, the Dev Team incorporated 2 pretty significant nerfs (in-effective throw angles, more end lag). You said she was chain grabbing people like crazy, so the DT changed the angles AND gave her more endlag? Just one or the other wasn't enough? Maybe the throws wouldn't be so bad if we could at least get out of our animations in ample time, in order to compensate for the tough angles and easy DI.

Buffs-to-Nerfs should be 1:1......a lot of ZSS's stuff is 1:2 or 1:3, with the nerfs being more significant aspects than the buffs, screwing the balancing even further. The nerfs outweigh the buffs in both number and significance.

While her throws do not combo every character at every percent, they do have quite a lot of combo utility.

"Quite a lot"? It's good to hear that you're still using ZSS, because I would love to see what you do with her throws combo-wise, and I'm not talking about 0-40% ranges. I played a Bowser on Sunday, Down-threw him at 85% and he literally flew too far for me to do ANYTHING. On a BOWSER. Didn't even set up for a tech chase because you can DI the new down-throw so hard that a lot of the time you can DI past the ledge of the stage. It's crazy.

Upon either decreasing the start up on tether or turning her grab into a regular grab, the old throws were seen chaingrabbing a majority of the cast for a long time (Think Ganondorf but worse).

Then why not adjust the BKB of the throws so that they could only get 2-3 (3 being max, on fast-fallers), and then adjust the KBG to where the throws were like 3.02 at higher percents? She could chain grab extremely well, so you guys adjusted the angle by over TWENTY degrees instead of finding a solution within the knock back values???

 

[Legit]

@ Legit I meant that you should examine the move in a vacuum. Basically to examine the move in a vacuum, you have to see how the entire cast interacts with it. It's probably not the best way to describe the process used to determine what is exactly wrong with the dash cancel, but it was what came to mind. The point I was trying to make was simply that regardless of what type of grab+throw ZSS has or what you do to dash cancel to make it worse, problems with balancing the mechanic will arise.

If there was an ultimatum that said laser will not be reverted, would you still want the tether grab and previous throw iterations?

I think @ Shokio made some extremely good points, especially regarding Falco's lasers and alternative ways of dealing with DC.

You mean how Falco can completely shut down some characters' neutral games thanks to the lasers? I don't understand how you guys can talk about getting rid of polarization, but still keep Falco's lasers in the game. You say think about ZSS's dash cancel in a vacuum, and then you bring up Falco......but if you look at Falco lasers in a vacuum, well.......they're pretty ridiculous and yet, they're still there.

Looking at Falco's lasers in a vacuum, they are pretty dang OP. I feel the reason they are left untouched is because "Well, it's in Melee". Considering this is Project Melee, I guess it makes sense, but just because something was in Melee doesn't mean it should be more immune to change than something that wasn't. This is NOT Melee, after all. Maybe that isn't even the reason, but that's what it feels like.

The way I (and others) see it, the faster blaster is actually a NERF. Since they're faster, that means there's a much longer gap between the laser and ZSS, meaning it's much harder to follow-up with them. Wouldn't it made more sense if the laser were kept at their 3.02 since the cancel was taken out? If you had more time to run a bit closer with your loser, wouldn't that have been the counteract to the removal of the dash-cancel?

So they're harder to follow up with, and they're clankable. That's 3 significant nerfs (no dash cancel, faster speed, clankable) compared to two MUCH less important buffs (fast-fallable, drift-able). That's not an even trade-off at all.

DC was pretty darn good, yes, but wouldn't have making the laser's clankable have been enough to compensate? Or at least adding clank-ability + faster speed, meaning they can be swatted and they're harder to follow up with, BUT, ZSS still keeps her mobility and fluidity with the DC.

I agree that a faster blaster shot is a nerf. Without being able to DC, the faster shot really means nothing. It just makes it even harder (impossible) to follow up. Once everyone figures out the new speed of the blaster, it's going to be even worse than it is now (powershield = GG). I feel like making the laser clankable+faster while still keeping DC sounds like an amazing compromise.

To answer your question @ Oro?! , it's a pretty tough choice. I really don't like her new throws at all, but having a normal grab is pretty nice, especially against spacies (though I've trained myself to use grab sparingly due to having used a tether for months, so at times I forget I even have a normal grab). I think having a tether is well worth the ability to actually followup throws, though grabs would be much harder to come by without the extra mobility DC provides. Although she'd be even worse against spacies than in 3.02, I'd still rather revert to tether grab + old throws (for combo's sake), even without DC.... but I want DC more than anything.

 

[Foo]

This is what we are working with. I want to preface by saying that regardless of Blaster and Grab changes, every other change was going to happen no matter what for 3.5. The reason was a global cleanup across the cast of massive hitboxes, early IASA/endlag making moves rediculously fast and spammable, insanely high BKB making moves always combo basically, and SDI/hitlag multipliers being normalized so that multihit moves have at least some sort of counterplay or escapability.

Now, the elephant in the room is the removal of dash cancel on laser and the addition of a regular grab. What most people seem upset about, is in fact just the laser. There were many steps taken in order to make the dash cancel attempt to fit and be balanced, but nothing significant enough to keep the cancel. Some of those things included speeding up the blaster shot significantly which neglected any follow ups from it basically, slowing down the blaster start up, and making the cancel later which felt unintuitive as well. Honestly the cancel could have been removed regardless of what happened to her grab. Before you start thinking things like, "but Falco lasers are dumb and were way better than 3.02 lasers" realize that every character should be examined in a vacuum, and how their moves interact with the entire cast should be analyzed to determine how exactly moves "should" work. The fact of the matter is, laser was changed significantly. Previously it was used to exert free stage wide pressure that a lot of characters could not deal with, but ZSS could not profit off of due to her lack of options vs shield. That is a very polarized and unintuitive situation in my book. By increasing the speed of tether or by giving ZSS a regular grab, that awkward situation becomes a free grab for ZSS while her opponent is still in shield stun. Even with keeping the old tether speed, several adjustments needed to be made in order for just laser->grab to not be a true block string from cross stage. Trust me, I tested several things in order to try to keep the dash cancel in tact, but it just was not worth it in the end.

Not every projectile needs a cancel. A projectile can be very useful and effective while having no cancel whatsoever. Sure her uncharged blaster doesn't combo anymore, and it can be difficult to set up combos out of the full charged blaster, but it is still a very good disrupt and was given a few things to make it more appealing in 3.5. A faster blaster means that ZSS has one of the faster projectiles in the game. She received a 20% frame decrease on startup. That is pretty significant in my opinion. In addition, the ability to fully drift and fast fall makes you unable to get in those "I'm stuck" situations after you do a full momentum laser off stage or something. I understand that these changes mean the character is not laser-centric anymore, but a lot of the cast are not projectile heavy any longer. Sure a few characters are that fit that niche such as Link or Toon Link, but it is no longer a battle of crazy projectiles and struggling to find an opening for 30 seconds.

In regards to specifically her throws. With the changes to ZSS' grab there were some problems with her current throws. Upon either decreasing the start up on tether or turning her grab into a regular grab, the old throws were seen chaingrabbing a majority of the cast for a long time (Think Ganondorf but worse). So it became pretty evident that something needed to be done to her throws. While her throws do not combo every character at every percent, they do have quite a lot of combo utility. What is going to be very important going forward is determining your opponents percentage along with their weight and fall speed to determine the best course of action regarding throws. There are characters you can combo out of dthrow. There are characters you can combo out of uthrow. There are also percents wher the smartest thing might be to use that outward DI your opponent is using at the ledge and fthrowing to set up an edgeguard.

I will address anything else people want to discuss. Let's keep this civil and try to look at the potential of the character in 3.5. I don't think she has been changed so drastically as is being stated.

@ Shokio @ Ouroboro @ Foo @ InfinityCollision

You know, it's funny that, immediately after being told to not look at my character's changes in a vacuum, by several devs, I'm being told the opposite by another.

I'm going to try to be brief because it's strangely hard to get key points off in a wall of text on a forum.

On Neutral B:

- I don't understand your logic at all, like, in any way. Your reasoning for not including the dash cancel and making it LATER is because it was unintuitive? Do I need to list all of the moves with IASA frames? I'm sorry, but this is grade C BS.
- You say it exerted free stage wide pressure that some characters couldn't deal with. I'm sorry, what characters don't have shields and rolls? It has minimal shield stun, so it doesn't chain into grab (in 3.0). Also, it has no hitstun, so it didn't combo into anything if it hits them. Also, you could simply take any evasise manuever excape spot dodge and be fine. IF this did need to be tweaked, sure, that's fine. Make it clank, make the cancel late, make it faster, whatever, that's fine. However, you didn't bother, you just axed it.
- "Not every projectile needs a cancel" This isn't justification for removing a cancel, this is justification for not adding it in the first place.
- "One of the faster projectiles in the game" Frame 16 isn't fast, and all the slower projectiles have much more damage and/or utility. The current blaster does 3ish damage and then nothing else. MAYBE if it did damage, it'd be useful.
- "A lot of the cast isn't projectile heavy anymore." ZSS wasn't projectile heavy though. The problem with other projectiles was that you could create impassable walls with them and spam hard enough to keep them up. With blaster, it was purely an approach since it was dash canceled instead of just iasa.

The changes just seem so incredibly hamhanded. It's like tweaking was never considered.

Her old nair was too good at comboing? Let's halve the BKB!
Her old grab was too risky for the reward? Let's giver her a new grab!
Her new grab is too good with dash cancel paralyzer? Let's remove the dash cancel!
Her new grab is too good with her throws? Remove all DI mixups and make follow ups out of throws only work on some characters at some %s.

Nobody has any problem with the nerfs that were tweaks. Down-b nerf? That's fine, still the same move overall. Dair nerf? Yeah, it was pretty silly before and it's still usable. D-smash nerf? Yeah, it probably didn't need to do that much damage. etc.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I see everyone's dug into their trenches at this point, so I'll keep this brief.

You've overthought both the design goals for 3.5 and the balancing process for ZSS and let those things get in the way of elegantly designed mechanics that contribute beneficially to one's playing experience, then rationalized the decision based on completely arbitrary notions of what is or isn't "smash" that aren't consistent with previously existing mechanics nor mechanics that are still in the game that were first implemented by the PMDT.

And for what it's worth, I miss both paralyzer and the grab. DC paralyzer and the tether grab were both interesting tools with their own uses, but they also had an interesting synergy both with each other and the rest of her kit. I don't miss any one part of that as much as I miss the whole. I've put more time into ZSS post-patch than any other character, learning the ins and outs of her new kit and how to best utilize it, but at the end of the day I'm left wondering why I should bother when I already play other characters with the same gameplan done better. The only good answer I've come up with thus far is that I want to figure out the changes to the rest of her kit on the off chance that her playstyle is restored and I continue on with her. I want to enjoy 3.5 ZSS, but at the end of the day she genuinely doesn't play the same way and no amount of time will change that.

 

[Ouroboro]

I hope oro and other devs dont take these walls of critiques littered with a sprinkle of salt to heart or too personally. I know upon release i was really optimistic about the changes and I am really trying to keep an open mind to why these changes were made. Ive spent a lot of time in the lab trying to make nair into grab flow correctly, adjusting my timing with dair, and attempting to see new possibilities. Ive seen some success but its these throws that keep tossing a wrench into everything. Theadjusted lag on lasers is almost like a delayed laser (optimistically speaking) but its too fast to make anything of it. Heck, if we could pull the ol' wolf waveland out of laser id be happy with that. (Because isnt that like the same thing anyway?) And while justifications and arguements fly on both sides i cant help but come back to the basics, zss isnt as fun as she used to be. Ill keep trying, but after 20 minutes of trying to figure out her new b&b's i get frustrated.

 

[Shokio]

Despite what Oro said about some tests done with the lasers and grabs, I'm very surprised that compromises or middle-ground weren't made and things were disposed of altogether. I hate to make an assumption that infers lack of effort or competence, but it feels like the team just went "Welp, that doesn't work right, so let's just utterly get rid of it" with her development. (I can't stress enough that I'm not trying to be disrespectful)

Unless I'm missing something simple but important here, I think my suggestions make perfect sense. I would love for the members involved with ZSS's development to comment on the things listed below. Consider them, comment on them, tell me if and why they wouldn't work, or if you guys have tried it already, etc:

1) Give DC lasers back, revert the range back to 3.02, make them clankable, and slightly faster. Even reduce the damage it does
if that's not enough.

2) Revert the Up-throw back to it's 93 degree angle. If it causes for chain grabs past 3 grabs, then adjust the BKB to where more than 3 re-grabs on fast-fallers wouldn't be possible. Adjust to KBG to where if they DI for a down throw *incorrectly*, she gets a follow-up. Add 4 frames of endlag instead of the current 7. (trying to compromise/be realstic/find a middle ground here)

3) Revert the Down-throw angle back to it's 82 degree angle (or somewhere around there.) Same principles apply for Up-throw. Add 2 frames of endlag instead of the current 5.

4) Restore the frontal range of the Nair, decrease the backward hitbox, reduce the damage back down to 10%. Change the BKB to 30, so it's an in-between of 3.02's 40 and 3.0's 25.

5) Of course, keep the Fair and Up-Smash fixes. But if moves being fixed to function properly (not too well, just properly) is really too good to have, by all means, keep the up smash range nerf, as well as the dair nerf. Those nerfs are fine.

6) Revert the damage her jab, dtilt, and up titlt back DOWN to their 3.02 percentages.

Would those 6 things, together, not be ok? And as you can see, there's totally way more nerfs in there than buffs. As I and others have said before, the problem isn't the nerfs, but in the change of her gameplay.

Also, veeeeery interesting question here:

A) Would it be possible to program two separate sets of throws into a character? Similar to how Samus has the Ice mode to change her A moves, would holding a taunt to switch your grab mode between tether and normal grab be possible? If the Dev Team for some reason would think #1 wouldn't work/wouldn't be ok, the best option that would make every happy is to give both sides the option the use the grab they want. I think this would be AMAZING and would once again restore that unique quirkiness factor we all loved about ZSS.

Normal grab mode would be what it is now, KB, angles and all. Tether mode will be what it was in 3.02, angles, KB and all.