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3.6 ZSS Discussion

Foo

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Since this thread was inevitably going to be made, I figured I may as well make it now. More details will be revealed later on this date (they'd better), but as of right now, all we know is that Zero Suit will be getting a standard grab in place of her tether. I am excited about this change because that means ZSS finally has a decent out of shield option! I know what you are thinking: "Shield grabbing is bad anyway." While that's true, it's only because good players play around your ability to shield grab them. Now that she can shield grab, they'll actually have to respect your shield (at least a little)!

Since recoveries are being nerfed and tether regrabs/forced ledge hops are nerfed, so I'd imagine down-b dive kick is a less viable edgeguarding tool. I bet we'll be forced to stay on stage more than in 3.0.

I bet that her fair and upsmash get changed, but only time will tell.
 

Ouroboro

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That was all I really wanted. everything else is just bonus at this point.
 

Ouroboro

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With her new grab, Does anyone think her throws will be different? I don't imagine they will be, but it might be a balancing solution the PMBR could implement.
 

ph00tbag

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Standard grab was a really ham-fisted change that didn't need to be made. Meanwhile dair's knockback still looks stupid. Hopefully, usmash and fair have at least been buffed appropriately.
 

ThreeSided

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Standard grab was a really ham-fisted change that didn't need to be made. Meanwhile dair's knockback still looks stupid. Hopefully, usmash and fair have at least been buffed appropriately.
I can't agree. Her neutral game was so iffy with that laggy tether. My opponents could rely on a shield way too much, because even if I start grabbing, they just read one and get a free punish. Zoot applies good pressure, and now that pressure is a lot better with a normal grab. Not to mention that she actually has decent answers to pressure now. I won't be missing her old grab.

I can agree that Dair is a little silly in design, but honestly it's not so bad. It's just strange enough that it's interesting but not so off that a decent opponent facing her won't quickly figure out, "Oh I should probably DI to the side lolol". Kinda makes it a gimmick at its worst and a fun unique combo tool at its best.

I'm not sure about buffing Usmash. I understand the sentiment, as I too have gotten punished for it on hit because they just sorta fell out at the side, but when you consider the move's other stats (comes out quickly, massive disjointed hitbox) it kinda needs a weakness. Though I might agree that it fails a little bit too easily.

Fair is sorta weird and boring, so I can agree. It's really just a worst bair, especially since the first hit rarely actually combos into the second at kill percents.They either need to make it combo better or give the first hit a decent use so that it's worth having it as something other than a way to mess up the second hit.
 

Foo

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I super disagree about upsmash. A straight up buff may not be good for it, but it is useless right now. Even if you land it, your opponent can REGULAR DI out of it and land a free punish on you. If it had a legit vacuum, it may be too strong in it's current iteration, but it needs to be changed SOMEHOW. I'm sure they did something with it.
 

ph00tbag

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I think that there are just so many ramifications to the grab change that unless the argument is that this is an experiment, no one can say they know just how much of an impact it'll have on her gameplan. There are weird interactions all over the place that are changed drastically. I feel like much of ZSS's needs as far as grabs go would have been better served by just making dash grab faster overall, removing the blind spot, and making the range shorter, because she needs to be able to threaten with grab at the mid-range. I don't think she needs any of the other things this change affords her.

As far as usmash, I think that it's weakness is its directionality. It really just has the use of protecting Samus's head, and she's heavily exposed from below. It's weakness shouldn't be that it's useless. Give it a vacuum, is all it needs. Maybe lower the damage, or give the last hit a 1.5x SDI multiplier so spacies don't get locked in for a free 50%.
 

Foo

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I think that there are just so many ramifications to the grab change that unless the argument is that this is an experiment, no one can say they know just how much of an impact it'll have on her gameplan. There are weird interactions all over the place that are changed drastically. I feel like much of ZSS's needs as far as grabs go would have been better served by just making dash grab faster overall, removing the blind spot, and making the range shorter, because she needs to be able to threaten with grab at the mid-range. I don't think she needs any of the other things this change affords her.
I don't think so. The problem with her grab wasn't really the speed (unless it was oos) it was the risk reward. If you landed the grab, great! You get an average grab follow up. If you DON'T hit the grab... hope you weren't too attached to that stock. Just having grab not be SUPER punishable by literally every single evasive option will prevent your opponent from hiding in shield too much. It also gives the nice mixup of

I am dashing at you, directly in front of you. Will I...

A. Grab?
B. Shffl nair?
C. Dash attack cross up?
D. Pivot grab?
E. Wave dash back?
F. Shield?

Also, I got the impression that these changes have been being play tested in a closed beta for a while. I doubt they are just hoping that it's a good change.
 
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ph00tbag

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Actually, 3.1 dash grab beat roll away. Go figure. But that running mix-up also would still be there, and would probably be a bit more potent, if dash grab were simply made faster. I come at this from watching Samus play for a long time. People talk about reacting to her grab animation, but everyone always gets caught by the dash grab, because it's just fast enough that you can't just passively react--you have to expect it, and actively scout it. And the higher risk played tricks on the opponent in that context, since they were less likely to expect the grab. The problem with ZSS is her dash grab is terrible. The mix-up can be there without all the potential pitfalls of a major change, but if you have a terrible dash grab, it won't be.

And I know for a fact it's been playtested thoroughly. It was first tried back when I still playtested unofficially for the game. A lot of my objections to it come from the experience of testing it out back then. I figured out I could tell when my opponent was going to grab just based on spacing alone. What did become kinda absurd was her punish game.
 

TheNix

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I agree that giving a standard grab to the 'current' ZSS would be too powerful, but it's been said lots of times that all of the changes shouldn't be taken in a vacuum. Maybe her followups are worse, or maybe she can't dash out of her neutral B anymore, or maybe her grab comes out at normal speed but still has a lot of recovery on the end? I'm not going to jump to any conclusions until I play her.
 

Ouroboro

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Considering how strong of an option laser dash cancel grab would be, i can understand losing it
 

ph00tbag

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I'm not really concerned about it being too strong, since that's something of a relative thing, and hell the current version has freaking Lucas and Mewtwo. I'm more concerned because it will assuredly cause a shift in focus on her gameplan as far as the places she wants to be, and what strengths and weaknesses she wants to be centered around.
 

Ouroboro

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That may be so, but you can trade up your options of approach from laser pressure to the threat of a grab. Im curious if this will now grant her some chain grab options. it also depends of laser lag. We might see her stun gun become very situational.
 
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I'm not really concerned about it being too strong, since that's something of a relative thing, and hell the current version has freaking Lucas and Mewtwo. I'm more concerned because it will assuredly cause a shift in focus on her gameplan as far as the places she wants to be, and what strengths and weaknesses she wants to be centered around.
All changes do this though, even minor ones.

ZSS is not the kind of character that needs a tether grab. She's more like Falcon or Fox than Link or Samus. Can you imagine giving falcon a tether grab?´

At least in smash 4 they gave her a zair.
 

ph00tbag

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All changes do this though, even minor ones.

ZSS is not the kind of character that needs a tether grab. She's more like Falcon or Fox than Link or Samus. Can you imagine giving falcon a tether grab?´

At least in smash 4 they gave her a zair.
Yes, but there is a sense of parity in that. When you make a minor change, there are minor shifts in the game plan. A move becomes slightly more preferable in neutral when it has one less frame of cooldown. Teching away becomes less preferable when you give it more recognizable, longer start-up. This is a complete overhaul, with potentially massive repercussions to her gameplan.

And ZSS with a tether is not like Falcon or Fox. That's the whole point. With the tether, she was unique in that the grab could be a threat from farther out. Because if its lag, you had to have a good read and reaction, but it still meant that shielding against her put opponents on their toes from range. Basically, what you mean to say is, "I want ZSS to play like Fox or Falcon, and this tether is an obstacle to that." Forgive me for being blunt, but I find this to be uncreative. We already have characters like Fox and Falcon. Why not see if there are way to make a character that plays like ZSS, but is better?
 
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Foo

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-Forward Smash
--Strong/Weak/Whip (strong)/Whip (weak) hitboxes:
--BKB: 45/30/45/128 -> 30/20/25/40, KBG: 96/100/(96/100)/16 -> 105/110/(105/110)/100

Anyone understand exactly what this change means?
 

Daftatt

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Praise the standard grab! The spacie matchup won't be so damn awful now.

However the standard laser followup is gone, I guess we use side-B now?
 
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Dr.Big72

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Ive realized that she can turn so smoothly from d-tilt, face the other direction, and then d-tilt but with out having to stand up. I am not sure if this change is due to the overall altered mechanics or significant change to z-suit. Crawling also feels more... responsive? Fast falling blasters seem to hold some promise. And the hitboxes on debug mode.... they're everywhere... D:
 

BILL?

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-Forward Smash
--Strong/Weak/Whip (strong)/Whip (weak) hitboxes:
--BKB: 45/30/45/128 -> 30/20/25/40, KBG: 96/100/(96/100)/16 -> 105/110/(105/110)/100

Anyone understand exactly what this change means?
I assume that this means that the reverse hit of Fsmash has lower bKB ie it isn't going to pop up for comboes at low percentage as well. I don't have the game yet (brawl disk broke) but that seems like the most obvious potential result of that.

When I get the game (whenever the Mac version builder is done) I'll try stuff out with her changed moves,
 
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And ZSS with a tether is not like Falcon or Fox. That's the whole point. With the tether, she was unique in that the grab could be a threat from farther out. Because if its lag, you had to have a good read and reaction, but it still meant that shielding against her put opponents on their toes from range. Basically, what you mean to say is, "I want ZSS to play like Fox or Falcon, and this tether is an obstacle to that." Forgive me for being blunt, but I find this to be uncreative. We already have characters like Fox and Falcon. Why not see if there are way to make a character that plays like ZSS, but is better?
That's not what I'm saying. A tether grab makes total sense in some movesets. Projectile characters have the ability to (and often want to) play a keepaway game for large portions of a match. ZSS' side-b and paralyzer are at best comparable to that, but aren't really very similar. ZSS' spacing game is more like Marth's than a projectile character; a big problem for ZSS in all of the games she's in has been that you don't really need to respect her grab because it's slow her other tools cover the same space. If you just hold R and then spot dodge her grab, you've beaten her. That's a simplification but there's a lot of truth to it anyway. A normal grab just makes her other long-range tools and aerials more difficult to challenge; you can't just hold R now, because she can do nothing and grab while you're blocking.

The play pattern encouraged by her tether grab is full of holes because she doesn't have the kit to support it. If it were faster it'd be too good with respect to its range. I understand why you want it to stay how it is. It makes her unique. But it violates pretty much the #1 design tenant of good competitive game design: things that make characters unique should be their strengths, not their weaknesses. ZSS' tether grab is a handicap, it's there to limit her close range options without providing any tangible benefit at high level play.
 

98.6°

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Um. Idk if im the only one that noticed/ had this problem ( I doubt it ) But ZSSs' costume with the green hair has missing textures for around the eyes so you can see right through them. How do i fix this?
 

Foo

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Guys, after some testing, I think I have some great news.

I'M PRETTY SURE ZSS CAN CHAIN GRAB SPACIES FROM 60% TO DEATH GUARANTEED*






*unless they SDI out of fair, but that is really hard, right guys? Guys?
 
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Queen Ystella

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I'm just butthurt that they removed her dash-paralyzer technique and then got rid of her tether grab.

That was a bit...stupid because now only the charge version of the laser serves any kind of purpose and that one is really slow and punishable.

Yet, Falco still remains with his laser untouched.

Bravo...bravo.
 

ThreeSided

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Anyone else feel like she's a completely different character now? Zoot has always had a great Dtilt and jab, and now she has a (rather good actually) normal grab. Her Dthrow has reduced knockback and a lower angle, which means it's much better for setting up tech chases and comboing at mid percents. Really, she feels a lot more like a captain falcon esqu character who can really get in your face.

In all seriousness, I think we're looking at a very different meta for ZSS with these changes. I actually really like it.
 

ph00tbag

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That's not what I'm saying. A tether grab makes total sense in some movesets. Projectile characters have the ability to (and often want to) play a keepaway game for large portions of a match. ZSS' side-b and paralyzer are at best comparable to that, but aren't really very similar. ZSS' spacing game is more like Marth's than a projectile character; a big problem for ZSS in all of the games she's in has been that you don't really need to respect her grab because it's slow her other tools cover the same space. If you just hold R and then spot dodge her grab, you've beaten her. That's a simplification but there's a lot of truth to it anyway. A normal grab just makes her other long-range tools and aerials more difficult to challenge; you can't just hold R now, because she can do nothing and grab while you're blocking.

The play pattern encouraged by her tether grab is full of holes because she doesn't have the kit to support it. If it were faster it'd be too good with respect to its range. I understand why you want it to stay how it is. It makes her unique. But it violates pretty much the #1 design tenant of good competitive game design: things that make characters unique should be their strengths, not their weaknesses. ZSS' tether grab is a handicap, it's there to limit her close range options without providing any tangible benefit at high level play.
This is why I say buff the start-up and cooldown of dash grab while nerfing the range. ZSS's real strength is her range, so giving her grab some range is well in line with that. I understand perfectly well that the frames are a major disadvantage there, but looking at the timings of other characters' ranged grabs, that's not something that in any way has to be a problem, especially with dash grabs. What makes ZSS unique isn't just her grab, it's her strong mid-range neutral game, and explosive punish game off of mid-range hits. A close-range grab doesn't really suit that.

Looking over the rest of the nerfs changes, now, rather than being ZSS, we're all playing a low-tier Sheik.
 

Shokio

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I (think I) enjoy her having a normal grab now, but the PMDT made a mistake of altering the angles of her throws. Up Throw and DThrow are no longer DI mixups, and people can input the same DI to get out of BOTH of them. Not only that, but her DThrow throws at way too low of an angle for how slowly she can follow it up. They added 5 frames of end lag on it, and then 7 frames on the Up-Throw. The angles would maybe be fine if she could get out of the animations quicker, but as of right now they feel way too sluggish.

If they're going to keep the horizontal angle that the DThrow has now, they need to reduce the amount of endlag on the throw. Chain grabbing feels much harder than it should be for her, and I would love for her Up-Throw to be restored to it's 93 degree angle, so it's once again a DI mixup and will once again allow you to combo a Bair out of a throw.
 

Foo

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Yeah.. I am having massive trouble comboing atm. Maybe I'm not doing it right, but nair doesn't seem to link into anything if they DI down and up air is too laggy and has meh trajectory for comboing. It's too early for me to call since I haven't even had time to play real games, let alone get used to it but I am not even enjoying playing ZSS atm.

I just want her old nair back T-T Can't believe they changed her so fing much. She was one of the few characters where almost everyone agreed that she was fine, almost perfect, even.

Anyone else struggling to get even the most basic strings together? All I'm managing to connect is short up air chains or dair to an aerial. Upthrow to up-air is guaranteed, but nothing after that. I have a tournament tommrow too, this sucks T-T
 

CzarYoshi

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ZSS doesn't feel like ZSS anymore to me. I can't really use Paralyzer if they are playing aggressive, the throws seem really off compared to how they were before. Don't try playing against a Samus btw, Samus can cc anything you throw at her when you try to approach she just down smashes you and if you grab her, you don't have any follow up on the throw. Her combo game seems to be more ground oriented since I cannot get more than 2 hits in the air but I can somewhat tech chase if I use Paralyzer and grab. Overall, I'm not liking her too much, she's way too different.
 

GogLP

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I gotta say I'm very pleased. We had our monthly smash league here and while I'm still very scruby, I was able to dish out quite a bit with her new tools. Her grab is awesome. I was jab resetting into grabs constantly. Also grabbing out of shuffled fair weak hit was working pretty well for me. A late nair leads to a grab pretty good at lowish mid. It's going to take some getting used too for the laser. It's range has been absurdly boosted. It's more of an extra-long range tool now instead of mid range. I found myself using side B as a mid range option and using more shuffled bairs as well. The thing I am most sad about is the auto cancel that's happening on the dive kick. I really liked hitting folks in the black at the bottom. Her recovery still seems pretty incredible. Less horizontal on the flip but the tether is still crazy long. Like I said, I'm scrubby, grain of salt. I'll have some vids soon. Then you can really see.
 

Legit

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No matter how you look at these "changes", they were definitely nerfs. Paralyzer has been rendered nearly useless with the dash cancel removed, and it's clankable. Although her new grab is nice, there's virtually no way to follow up on any of her throws due to the change in angles (except uthrow against FFers). Nair size has been reduced. Not only is it harder to land, but it's extremely hard to follow it up with anything. Her throws and paralyzer are way too laggy. She feels too sluggish to me. I used this character because of her awesome speed, mobility, and combo potential, but a lot of that went out the window this patch. :(
 

Gいたん

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No matter how you look at these "changes", they were definitely nerfs. Paralyzer has been rendered nearly useless with the dash cancel removed, and it's clankable. Although her new grab is nice, there's virtually no way to follow up on any of her throws due to the change in angles (except uthrow against FFers). Nair size has been reduced. Not only is it harder to land, but it's extremely hard to follow it up with anything. Her throws and paralyzer are way too laggy. She feels too sluggish to me. I used this character because of her awesome speed, mobility, and combo potential, but a lot of that went out the window this patch. :(
I've found her new grab really good for tech chasing and set ups out of them
Tech chase regrab on her up throw if they're at too low of percent to up air or forward/back air, down throw tech chases really good as well
Read the tech chase with a Down Smash to F Smash/Forward B has worked fine for me.
I really like her in this version, maybe because playing her in 3.5 to me feels like playing Sheik in Melee, lol.
 

Shokio

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After playing countless hours against some friends last night...............ZSS's grabs are virtually useless. I literally ended up saying "Why did I even grab you?" in every match I did, because literally, unless your opponent DI's like a ******, you will get NO good follow-ups out of her throws. I was getting grabs all night and D-Throwing, only to have the player DI down and away at almost any percent past 60% and I COULD NOT reach them. The only times I got follow ups is when I did DROP-ZONE, FAIRS. I should NOT have to do that to get a follow-up.

The only time DThrow works at higher percents is against floaties, and that's pretty much it. The new 60 degree angle it has becomes even worse considering they added +5 frames of end lag on the animation, for literally no reason.

Up Throw's kinda good on fast-fallers at higher percents, but again, the new angle makes it extremely easy to get out of and the unnecessary +7 frames of endlag makes getting a precise or on-time follow-up reeeallly hard, not to mention it makes the grab feel really sluggish.

Speaking of which, her grab feels pretty rugged in-general. It needs to be smoothed out.

I initially thought that with a regular grab and her up-throw, she'd be able to chain grab fast fallers like most of the roster can. And she KINDA can.......but again, the +7 frames they added on up-throw actually makes re-grabbing difficult at low percents. Makes it feel very stiff as well.

And as I said before, you can apply the same DI for both throws, so they don't have to worry about mix ups.

There was literally no reason to change the trajectory of her grabs, they were perfectly fine. It seems like a change the PMDT made "JUST CAUSE." If they just got rid of the tether but kept EVERYTHING else in-tact about the grabs, her grab game would've been PERFECT.
 

Foo

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Her throws are basically even laggier versions of falcon throws and with no knee. It's pretty bad, this patch is making me really really sad. I was so hyped for PM 3.5 too... WHY DID THEY MURDER ZSS SHE WAS FINE LIKE WTF I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

idk, maybe her new upsmash is good? Maybe upthrow to upsmash connects on semi fasterfalls and upthrow fair connects on fast fallers? It seems like she still combos, just only at higher %s. That means you have to rack up damage with pokes/short strings off of soft reads and tech chases. However, she can kill out of those combos more easily with fair, but it can still be easily SDI'd.

I'm going to a tournament today, so we'll see how I feel about it after playing some real opponents. I'm gonna spend all friggin day there playing friendlies even after I win or lose the tourney.
 
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J$~

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I never really liked her tether in 3.0 I feel like the change in grabs will be better for her. I think that it lets you provide quicker pressure than the tether, since it is safer if missed, and quicker if successful. Though I never really messed around with ZSS in 3.5, I'm definitely picking her up now. :D
 

Ouroboro

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So, i guess the question now is this, was getting a standard grab in exchange for all these other changes, worth it in the end. We now have a nearly useless projectile, issues with her new throws, combo problems, and an identity crisis
 

Foo

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imo, not even close. Maintaining identity>everything unless a character is obscenely broken (which ZSS was nowhere close to)
 

Roche_CL

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Lol, playing against CPU Fox Lvl 9 on FD is like invoking CT Zero, spams lasers and then run for the Usmash xd. Really annoying ...
On topic:
I find charged shot with fast fall more useful than previous charged shot, i can link it if opponent isn't that far away. Uncharged shot is definitely worst and seems useless :(.
I've only played against cpu's, and seems that on floaties the go for option is Uthrow, catching them before they fall.
 
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