3.6 ZSS Discussion

[BILL?]

I was initially really meh about the changes but I played around with her more and stuff I liked about ZSS is still there, plus we can combo into grabs and do safer reaction based tech chases (which I am more consistent with than reads). but I am sad about paralyzer. Rip paralyzer dash cancel; you will be missed.

Ugh idk about her tbh. Feels weird. I'll give 3.5 zss a chance but some of the changes really don't sit well with me.

 

[Ouroboro]

I think I'm in the middle of the road. I find myself torn on the subject. I've been playing around with grab combos and they're kinda sweet. But I also haven't found a consistent followup option off of grab outside tech chase, it feels like we're gonna have to captain falcon more of our combos along in 3.5. I feel like I don't have to retreat after nair jab anymore though. pressure feels better, we'll just need to find new ways to get our offense across.

 

[Veishi336]

Anyone else chain grabbed a character? I was surprised i did today. Chain grabbed with D-throw

 

[Legit]

Lol, playing against CPU Fox Lvl 9 on FD is like invoking CT Zero, spams lasers and then run for the Usmash xd. Really annoying ...
On topic:
I find charged shot with fast fall more useful than previous charged shot, i can link it if opponent isn't that far away. Uncharged shot is definitely worst and seems useless .
I've only played against cpu's, and seems that on floaties the go for option is Uthrow, catching them before they fall.

No decent real life opponent is going to get hit by a charged shot. The projectile is useless, and as much as I don't want to admit it, the character seems that way as well. I'm still going to give her a chance for a while, but she's just not the same.

Anyone else chain grabbed a character? I was surprised i did today. Chain grabbed with D-throw

That's only possible around mid% if your opponent has bad DI.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I mess around with ZSS a little bit with my friends. The standard grab change is definitely the right way to go... but as others have said, the d-throw kind of sucks. Granted, she pressures better now because of it, but her combo options have suffered as a result (not to mention her nair is harder to connect).

 

[Shokio]

@Oro?!, @Vixen, would love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Ouroboro]

After playing real people, Ive come to the conclusion that i loath new zero suit...

 

[Shokio]

Her grabs and Nair need to be restored. They were changed for no reason.

All ZSS needed was her Fair fixed (which they did), her Up Smash fixed, and the tether grab removed. If everything else was left intact (outside of recovery of course), she would've been perfect.

And it's not necessary, but if they wanted to make some other kind of change, they should've done something with her Uair. It's not a reliable kill move, and it's not a reliable combo move. The move is just really "meh". Would love for them to restore it back to the Brawl Uair, or make it weaker so it combos better.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I've already typed a small essay (two, actually) on the subject here, so I'll not say too much more in this thread.

I feel bad for you guys. This was unwanted and unwarranted, and I'm baffled by the fact that such drastic changes were approved despite their effect of essentially watering down ZSS's playstyle into something more conventional. I'm holding out hope for a 3.51 patch that reverts the grab and paralyzer changes, because right now I'm honestly not all that interested in playing ZSS.

 

[Ouroboro]

Yeah, zss just isnt fun to play anymore.

 

[Foo]

@ Shokio Idk, I don't think she would have been perfect with those changes. Give her 3 buffs, let her keep nair and throw while nerfing everyone around her would make her OP. Here's what I think the thought process was.

1. Let's try to fix fair so that it is a viable move
2. ZSS nair combos too well into itself and it is unfun to get combo'd repeatedly by the same move. Especially since it links into fair for kills better now.
3. Since we are nerfing nair, we should buff her grab to compensate. Her tether didn't fit the character anyhow. This also gives her an oos option.
4. Uh-oh, with a regular grab and her old throws, she can now chaingrab really well! Guess we need to change the throw trajectories to prevent this.
5. While we're at it, ZSS projectile is really frustrating to deal with, let's nerf it but make it come out faster to compensate.
6. If we nerf blaster, guess we should fix upsmash to compensate.

Sadly, they killed ZSS. I don't know who represented ZSS, but I am disappointed in whomever it was. I was playing in tournament today and it felt awful. It was so hard to deal with campers and connecting of throws was next to impossible. Also, since nair range nerfs, it is no longer safe on shield against certain characters. You have to completely rely on tech chases to rack damage. Her edge guarding is still good though, so that's nice.

I think I'm gonna pick a new main after I spend a couple weeks praying I can figure her out.

 

[StraightEight]

Probably beating the dead horse here, but I'm not a huge fan of the changes myself. I'm someone who picks his characters based on whose style I prefer and how the general feel is, and I personally feel that ZSS has lost much of what makes her unique. Not to mention, some of my favorite moves have been botched(looking at you, down air). Didn't really have a single problem with how she was in the previous revision, and upon discovering that dash cancel(I was late to the party), I had come across a lot more movement and approach options. That's all gone now.

Question is, why exactly? Did someone just think it'd be a good idea? Were there complaints of the character? I'm just failing to understand the inspiration behind these changes. I mean, she has a standard grab now, but was it even needed? Sure, she wasn't so hot under shield pressure, but the girl's gotta have some kind of weak point. She was mobile, fast, had smooth movement, good combo potential, and just overall pretty damn stylish. Now, her tether(practically part of her identity in the game) is gone, her new grab is clunky, her throw options are rather poor, her approach options have been compromised, and her combo game is pretty unimpressive. She's gone from one of my favorites to "What the hell is this?"

Really curious as to why that down-air was changed, though. It was a smooth animation that required quick reactions from both parties. Now, it's just a (and I'll use this word quite a bit) clunky, awkward, and stiff attack with what seem to be poor follow up options. Again, not sure what the team was aiming for here. Just seems rather off. Buffing her F-air was nice, but I don't feel it was necessary. Her other moves more than compensated for it. I think I can agree with some previous posters when they say that she was near perfect before.

Lastly, to those claiming that the new grab brings her closer to that of Falcon or Fox: Why not just play Falcon or Fox? If you want jab resets and whatnot, they're right up your alley. I don't think ZSS is really built for that to begin with. Or, I guess "was" built for that. Overall, her design feels... confused. As though whoever was making the changes just wasn't sure what he wanted to do. I'll continue to play her for the time being, but she's pretty close to being placed on the bench. Just not feeling the feel of this character anymore. Maybe next time, I guess.

Kind of funny that ZSS is one of the characters that seems to face the most dynamic of changes. I really wonder why that is.

EDIT: Change the down air and special back, and give her actual throws and tether(personal preference), and I can manage. Not having the dash cancel still blows, but oh well.

 

[InfinityCollision]

For anyone wanting some insight on how the changes played out, follow the comments in the link I posted above. A PM dev who works on ZSS responded to the first of my two walls of text there. My second lengthy post is a response to said comment; haven't gotten a reply to that yet.

I'm disappointed by the fact that seemingly everyone responsible for developing and playtesting ZSS saw the removed elements as "unique eccentricities", nonessential elements to sacrifice for the sake of a "more solid character base" instead of something worth preserving as part of her particular playstyle.

EDIT: Also, shoutouts to @The_NZA for distilling the crux of the matter into a single sentence in that comment chain. Now that I think about it, he also posted this not too long ago...

Last I checked, Oro hates her grab. But Oro plays a pretty bare bones ZSS (which I think he's even told me). It's focused on a portion of her kit...a mix of ftilts, jabs, bairs, and a lot of CQC. Numerics juts likes shooting lasers and footdiving on the edge of platforms into uairs and whips and dumb stupid beautiful things.

How very relevant to the direction they've taken with 3.5 ZSS. I know he's far from the only one involved in her development, but the playstyle juxtaposition captures the issue here perfectly.

 

[Shell]

@Oro?! summoning ritual

 

[Ouroboro]

After spending the last 8-9 months learning zss as much as possible, only to have it replaced with a lookalike i now feel i have to completely relearn, i get this sense that im betrayed. Ill pick up og samus now i think. Or take a prolonged break.

 

[Shokio]

@ Shokio Idk, I don't think she would have been perfect with those changes. Give her 3 buffs, let her keep nair and throw while nerfing everyone around her would make her OP. Here's what I think the thought process was.

1. Let's try to fix fair so that it is a viable move
2. ZSS nair combos too well into itself and it is unfun to get combo'd repeatedly by the same move. Especially since it links into fair for kills better now.
3. Since we are nerfing nair, we should buff her grab to compensate. Her tether didn't fit the character anyhow. This also gives her an oos option.
4. Uh-oh, with a regular grab and her old throws, she can now chaingrab really well! Guess we need to change the throw trajectories to prevent this.
5. While we're at it, ZSS projectile is really frustrating to deal with, let's nerf it but make it come out faster to compensate.
6. If we nerf blaster, guess we should fix upsmash to compensate.

Sadly, they killed ZSS. I don't know who represented ZSS, but I am disappointed in whomever it was. I was playing in tournament today and it felt awful. It was so hard to deal with campers and connecting of throws was next to impossible. Also, since nair range nerfs, it is no longer safe on shield against certain characters. You have to completely rely on tech chases to rack damage. Her edge guarding is still good though, so that's nice.

I think I'm gonna pick a new main after I spend a couple weeks praying I can figure her out.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

Her Nair was fairly easy to DI out of. All you have to do is hold down and away. I remember the last time I played Oracle, when he was using Charizard (AKA, easy to combo horizontally), it was hard for me to get even a 2nd Nair because he was DI'ing straight out of the strings. Yeah, sometimes you could string 4 Nair's on people, but really it was only because people wouldn't DI it.

The problem with how they developed ZSS and a few other chars, is that they got FIXES mixed up with buffs. This is an excerpt of a post I made in the DFW FB page, it'll explain what I mean:


"I feel like the Dev Team FORCEFULLY made changes to certain characters just so they can say that they did so. Wolf, for instance, got a whole bunch of random frames added to the endlag of various moves. Why? Was something wrong with Wolf? Who was complaining about him? There were some characters in this game who only needed 2-3 tweaks, (not even buffs or nerfs, but tweaks), but the DT decided to alter aspects that were completely fine just for the hell of it.

- The PMDT seems to have FIXES, mixed up with buffs. Yes, technically, a fix could be looked at as a buff considering the simple fact that a fix makes a character better, but here's the thing: If something got FIXED, that means that previously, it was BAD or not functioning properly. Therefor, *fixed* issues do not need parallel nerfs in order to try to "balance them", cause those issues were holding the character back in the first place - they were never fine. Ganon's hover is a buff, because it is not a fix of anything, it's just icing on the cake. Zero's Suits UpSmash connecting properly with it's hitboxes now was not a buff, it was a fix, so the DT didn't have to reduce the size of the attack (not that big of a deal, just an example) in order to "balance" that out.

The problem that this creates, is that now lower-tiered characters have remained in their spots, or gone even lower, because for every FIX, they received an unwarranted nerf. But when you FIX something, you are bringing it to NORMALITY. A character should not be punished for having a move *corrected*."

The #6 you listed is exactly what I mean. They had the mindset that they needed to NERF something just because of a FIX they did. That is not fair and bad design. ZSS with her FIXES would've been a perfectly mid-tier character, because she wasn't perfectly mid-tier to begin with, she was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. Fixes should not warrant nerfs, and like I said in my FB posts, a lot of the changes are JUST CAUSE.

Also: I just came back from another Smash fest. The more I play ZSS the more disappointed I am.

 

[Foo]

I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

Her Nair was fairly easy to DI out of. All you have to do is hold down and away. I remember the last time I played Oracle, when he was using Charizard (AKA, easy to combo horizontally), it was hard for me to get even a 2nd Nair because he was DI'ing straight out of the strings. Yeah, sometimes you could string 4 Nair's on people, but really it was only because people wouldn't DI it.

The problem with how they developed ZSS and a few other chars, is that they got FIXES mixed up with buffs. This is an excerpt of a post I made in the DFW FB page, it'll explain what I mean:


"I feel like the Dev Team FORCEFULLY made changes to certain characters just so they can say that they did so. Wolf, for instance, got a whole bunch of random frames added to the endlag of various moves. Why? Was something wrong with Wolf? Who was complaining about him? There were some characters in this game who only needed 2-3 tweaks, (not even buffs or nerfs, but tweaks), but the DT decided to alter aspects that were completely fine just for the hell of it.

- The PMDT seems to have FIXES, mixed up with buffs. Yes, technically, a fix could be looked at as a buff considering the simple fact that a fix makes a character better, but here's the thing: If something got FIXED, that means that previously, it was BAD or not functioning properly. Therefor, *fixed* issues do not need parallel nerfs in order to try to "balance them", cause those issues were holding the character back in the first place - they were never fine. Ganon's hover is a buff, because it is not a fix of anything, it's just icing on the cake. Zero's Suits UpSmash connecting properly with it's hitboxes now was not a buff, it was a fix, so the DT didn't have to reduce the size of the attack (not that big of a deal, just an example) in order to "balance" that out.

The problem that this creates, is that now lower-tiered characters have remained in their spots, or gone even lower, because for every FIX, they received an unwarranted nerf. But when you FIX something, you are bringing it to NORMALITY. A character should not be punished for having a move *corrected*."

The #6 you listed is exactly what I mean. They had the mindset that they needed to NERF something just because of a FIX they did. That is not fair and bad design. ZSS with her FIXES would've been a perfectly mid-tier character, because she wasn't perfectly mid-tier to begin with, she was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. Fixes should not warrant nerfs, and like I said in my FB posts, a lot of the changes are JUST CAUSE.

Also: I just came back from another Smash fest. The more I play ZSS the more disappointed I am.

I don't think nair is as easy to DI out of as you say. Charizard actually can DI out of it more easily than you'd think. He's heavy, so his hitstun is shorter. I know I was playing a really good ivy, and he couldn't DI out of my strings if I adjusted to my DI. Same for game and watch. It seems she doesn't combo heavier characters as well as light ones because she is fast enough for the being hit too far away to not matter. (with the exception of bowser) I don't think ZSS would be OP with those fixes in 3.0, but 3.5 was "nerf all the things: the patchening" With her fair being better, she could semi reliably kill out of combos and with upsmash being good, she would be able to combo fast fallers much more easily and control space above her better.

Not saying she would absolutely be god tier, but if enough people picked her up, she could easily be the new mario (not quite god tier, but still way too good). However, the rest I completely agree with. I just think very slight nerfs to other moves (preferably not nair, but perhaps nair) in addition to fixes would make her perfect.

I think every zero suit player can come together and agree that 3.5 zss is an abomination, though.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Adding this to my pile of essays now that it's (maybe) cleaned up.

 

[Gいたん]

@ Veishi336 I've chaingrabbed a few times, but nothing past like 2 grabs.

I'm telling you man, tech chasing with the new grabs is Incredible. Up throw and down throw.
If they are DIing down away and you want another followup besides regrab do a mixup with her forward throw if you're close to the edge of the stage, gives them good distance off stage to grab ledge and or followup.

If they tech in place up tilt to another up tilt or arial.
I don't know, I love her new grab and see lots of potential with it

 

[Shokio]

We have the Up-B pull-down for tech chases, we didn't need a grab to be converted into a tech chase option.

DThrow was her bread-and-butter combo starter and essentially her only reliable one.

 

[Legit]

@Oro?! summoning ritual

 

[BILL?]

At this point I get the feeling "I'd rather be playing Falco. In Melee."
I'll be doing just that in tournaments in a week and I don't feel like entering PM with Zss like this.
That's not a good thing lol.

 

[Gいたん]

We have the Up-B pull-down for tech chases, we didn't need a grab to be converted into a tech chase option.

DThrow was her bread-and-butter combo starter and essentially her only reliable one.

I think the point of it being removed is because having GUARANTEED follow ups out of grab all the time was kind of part of the things that needed to be removed from PM In my opinion. Felt too easy, but it was a good thing to have for her laggier tether grab, making it a risk-reward thing.
Now that the risk is reduced greatly I don't see why the reward should still be as great as a guaranteed 'BnB' followup off of grab. I've landed D throw forward air off of some floatier characters DIing away, so there still are some. It's just mixed up more.
I have been getting some sick combos with ZSS and I haven't seen anything wrong with her throws. Falling up air combos really well for me, catching them on the platforms reading their techs with up airs into more up airs or forward/back airs,
I think she's still great wth her new grab, maybe even better.
I played her a bit before the update next to my Lucas and I felt like this is exactly what she needed.

 

[Legit]

I think the point of it being removed is because having GUARANTEED follow ups out of grab all the time was kind of part of the things that needed to be removed from PM In my opinion. Felt too easy, but it was a good thing to have for her laggier tether grab, making it a risk-reward thing.
Now that the risk is reduced greatly I don't see why the reward should still be as great as a guaranteed 'BnB' followup off of grab. I've landed D throw forward air off of some floatier characters DIing away, so there still are some. It's just mixed up more.
I have been getting some sick combos with ZSS and I haven't seen anything wrong with her throws. Falling up air combos really well for me, catching them on the platforms reading their techs with up airs into more up airs or forward/back airs,
I think she's still great wth her new grab, maybe even better.
I played her a bit before the update next to my Lucas and I felt like this is exactly what she needed.

We don't want her new grab AND guaranteed followups from throws. Most of us generally agree that would be too OP.

Uair was one of her only BnB moves that was left relatively untouched. That's pretty much her only means of comboing now. Nair was nerfed to ****, down b doesn't link to anything anymore, and her throws can't be followed up against people DI'ing PROPERLY. Her speed and mobility took massive hits with dash cancel being removed as well as the horizontal momentum of side b being reduced. Most of us chose ZSS because of those qualities. We wanted a fast, tricky, mobile character, but now all we have is a watered down, bad Sheik, which I guess to you, as a Sheik main in Melee, sounds great. We don't want to play Sheik though. We want to play ZSS.

 

[homesuck]

is there a petition i can sign to bring back 3.0 zss? i want to have fun again

 

[Legit]

If you find one, link meh.

 

[Gいたん]

We don't want her new grab AND guaranteed followups from throws. Most of us generally agree that would be too OP.

Uair was one of her only BnB moves that was left relatively untouched. That's pretty much her only means of comboing now. Nair was nerfed to ****, down b doesn't link to anything anymore, and her throws can't be followed up against people DI'ing PROPERLY. Her speed and mobility took massive hits with dash cancel being removed as well as the horizontal momentum of side b being reduced. Most of us chose ZSS because of those qualities. We wanted a fast, tricky, mobile character, but now all we have is a watered down, bad Sheik, which I guess to you, as a Sheik main in Melee, sounds great. We don't want to play Sheik though. We want to play ZSS.

Yeah, I wasn't addressing most of you guys when I said that, just the guy I quoted.
I do agree that the removal of the dash canceled Paralyzer and the horizontal momentum of side b being reduced removed a bit of depth from her play. I wish she still kept both of those things because I really don't see a reason for there removal (Not saying there couldnt be one, just saying I'm not aware of a reason why).
I disagree with her being a "Watered down bad Sheik". I main sheik in melee, yeah, but I feel like Zero Suit has a lot of creative options off of her tech chases compared to Melee Sheik's tilts/upsmash into more tilts to fair or throw into edge guard.
Tech chasing isnt only regrabbing, which is mainly the boring part about tech chasing. I can read a tech roll with the Paralyzer and Dash in in time for a punish, read it with a side b which pops them up perfectly for a good followup/combo, read it with a down air which also pops up for a good followup opportunity, etc. I really dont think its as bad as everyone's saying.

 

[Shokio]

I think the point of it being removed is because having GUARANTEED follow ups out of grab all the time was kind of part of the things that needed to be removed from PM In my opinion. Felt too easy, but it was a good thing to have for her laggier tether grab, making it a risk-reward thing.
Now that the risk is reduced greatly I don't see why the reward should still be as great as a guaranteed 'BnB' followup off of grab. I've landed D throw forward air off of some floatier characters DIing away, so there still are some. It's just mixed up more.
I have been getting some sick combos with ZSS and I haven't seen anything wrong with her throws. Falling up air combos really well for me, catching them on the platforms reading their techs with up airs into more up airs or forward/back airs,
I think she's still great wth her new grab, maybe even better.
I played her a bit before the update next to my Lucas and I felt like this is exactly what she needed.

Her grabs didn't have guaranteed follow-ups in 3.0 though. Not at high percents, and into a kill move. ZSS actually had one of the more fair grab game in the entire roster, actually.

The only time they were somewhat like that, is when they were used against a fast-faller or a big character like Bowser and DK that are combo food.......in which case, the majority of the roster could do that same thing too.

 

[Legit]

Yeah, I wasn't addressing most of you guys when I said that, just the guy I quoted.
I do agree that the removal of the dash canceled Paralyzer and the horizontal momentum of side b being reduced removed a bit of depth from her play. I wish she still kept both of those things because I really don't see a reason for there removal (Not saying there couldnt be one, just saying I'm not aware of a reason why).
I disagree with her being a "Watered down bad Sheik". I main sheik in melee, yeah, but I feel like Zero Suit has a lot of creative options off of her tech chases compared to Melee Sheik's tilts/upsmash into more tilts to fair or throw into edge guard.
Tech chasing isnt only regrabbing, which is mainly the boring part about tech chasing. I can read a tech roll with the Paralyzer and Dash in in time for a punish, read it with a side b which pops them up perfectly for a good followup/combo, read it with a down air which also pops up for a good followup opportunity, etc. I really dont think its as bad as everyone's saying.

The only time you can follow paralyzer up with anything is if you land a charged shot. Yeah if you can land one of those maybe u can get a side b in and do a little combo, but thats really it. How are you going to get that first grab though? There is no longer any reliable way to approach or start combos. We can't play aggressive anymore. We have to wait and punish jumps with uairs or shield grab unsafe moves. It's just too different and not very fun.

 

[Legit]

oops. double post...

 

[Gいたん]

The only time you can follow paralyzer up with anything is if you land a charged shot. Yeah if you can land one of those maybe u can get a side b in and do a little combo, but thats really it. How are you going to get that first grab though? There is no longer any reliable way to approach or start combos. We can't play aggressive anymore. We have to wait and punish jumps with uairs or shield grab unsafe moves. It's just too different and not very fun.

I definitely understand how you feel there and that makes for a good point. Her aggressive options have been limited, and I feel like now she plays better passively, which is what I meant by it being similar to sheik.
I feel like In order to do well you have to bait more and play defensively and more passive to land the grabs into the combos, which is probably different from the ZSS you enjoyed playing.

ive found that against fast fallers like Wolf, unless they shield immediately after DIing away and teaching at like mid percentage (40ish-higher50) after an up throw and they tech away, you can hard read them with a full charged B and then go in for a follow up
Against weight like Marth, I can up throw at mid percentage and do the same but instead of standing in place short hop forward and charge it, covering the tech in place AND away if he DIs away, if not it's an up tilt or an up air into more follow ups. That's just an example of some combo potential I've seen off of her tech chases, imo she's fefinitely not watered down or boring.

But I enjoy the passive play style, so it's different for everyone, and particularly gives reason for opposite opinion or complaints because that was a big change to her character

 

[Ouroboro]

Zss might be viable in her current state, sure, but the old zss is dead and gone. Its the old zss that we all worked really hard to learn, and now have to relearn.

 

[Foo]

Going for dsmash is almost inherently better than neutral b for tech chases.

(@Oro?! Summoning ritual)

 

[Gいたん]

Zss might be viable in her current state, sure, but the old zss is dead and gone. Its the old zss that we all worked really hard to learn, and now have to relearn.

Yeah, I understand that for sure, but I don't think that people should be saying what she has now is bad because of that, because its still all pretty good.
I used to be solely a Lucas main, but because of the changes in his range, timings, and sweet spots, etc, it was pretty much going to be relearn his timings and spacing or drop him. Not complaining though, he's definitely still good, and so is ZSS. They just have to be played differently now, much more so for ZSS.
I tried out Zero Suit in this update and liked what was done to her, so I decided to do just that and dropped him for a while to focus on her. Since i didn't play her or dedicate as much time to her as I did Lucas i didn't feel the same impact you guys may have from the changes.

@ Foo I 100% agree, I usually never go for the Paralyzer tech chase because its risky and like you said D smash is by far a better option, was just mentioning it to give example of some unique possible follow ups aside from regrab or smash attac ks pertaining to tech chase to state that the grab isn't as bad as what the post I was quoting earlier was saying

 

[Foo]

Alright guys, I actually made a petition for this. If you would like to sign, post here making it clear you would like to sign the petition to make her more like 3.0. If you would like her to stay as 3.5 ZSS, there is also an option for that.

http://smashboards.com/threads/petition-to-restore-zero-suit-samus.378230/


@ Gいたん Having interesting tech chase options don't really matter when there are objectively better ones. There's a reason shiek doesn't tech chase with fsmash, nair or whip.

 

[Gいたん]

@ Foo
Ahh, i'm really bad at getting what I'm trying to say across without putting too much emphasis on one thing.

What I'm trying to say is there is GOOD creative play and follow ups and combos to be done out of her tech chasing on her throws, only speaking about the grab obviously because that seems to be the main complaint.
Sheik tech chases with down throw, tilt, fair, or dash attack. All really simple and are good reliable followups, as are ZSS's Dsmash, up tilt, up throw into up air or other things, down air, etc (but I feel ZSS's are more complex)
Yes, obviously Sheiks tech chases are very good, but I really think Zero Suits are as well
All of those possible things I stated lead to pretty good combos racking percent to close out the stock.
I'm not just saying "oh she has interesting tech chase options that makes her grab good"
The tech chase options are actually good themselves. Tech chasing with side b is fantastic because it pops them up at the perfect angle for followups, regrabbing with let's say down throw and mixing them up by up throwing them to forward air, nair, or even an Up tilt or two (and her up tilt is Incredible Imo) getting that damage up to End the stock.
Grab wasn't and isnt her only combo starter and it was really punishable in itself for how long it stayed out and what you could get out of it, to me it didn't feel worth it and this is a much better alternative and trade for being able to have a normal grab.


The one thing I agree should be back is dash canceling the Paralyzer. A lot more potential removed from the character there, but I don't know? Possibly could have been necessary.
I miss it and thought it was a really good mechanic of hers, though.

 

[gmBottles]

I agree with Glitched. While I never really played her before 3.5 at all, she feels like she has a lot of potential. I didn't have much trouble comboing with anything, I was even able to still use the paralyzer. I also think that the dash cancel should be back, but that's it. I like the new changes.

 

[Shokio]

I agree with Glitched. While I never really played her before 3.5 at all, she feels like she has a lot of potential. I didn't have much trouble comboing with anything, I was even able to still use the paralyzer. I also think that the dash cancel should be back, but that's it. I like the new changes.

Serious question: Have you been beating up on CPU's this whole time, or have you been able to play against competent players?

I thought she was *ok* when I first booted up the game and started playing, but when I went to a Smash fest and played humans who apply proper DI, not stand to get hit by lasers..........she felt insignificant.

 

[gmBottles]

Serious question: Have you been beating up on CPU's this whole time, or have you been able to play against competent players?

I thought she was *ok* when I first booted up the game and started playing, but when I went to a Smash fest and played humans who apply proper DI, not stand to get hit by lasers..........she felt insignificant.

Actual competent players. It was just friendlies and wasn't taken super seriously, so it was likely careless DI, but regardless it is possible, and wasn't very difficult. It might just be because I have 0 experience with the old ZSS.

 

[wangston]

I feel like now I have to just tech chase all day to get the big combos I used to get. In 3.02 I would have to worry about matches against spacies because they fell fast and I would have to read lots of techs to get combos, but now I feel like every thing I do leads to people hitting the ground and me going for the read. Playing zss just got a lot more mental draining.

Also the change in the paralyzer hurt the most more than any other change. Also she doesn't slid as far when using down smash while walking so it feels like the range has shorten making it even harder to tech chase.