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3.6 ZSS Discussion

Massive

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The removal of dash cancelled blaster certainly hurts (and makes blaster basically worthless), but I'm going to go ahead and back the unpopular opinion of liking her new grabs.

The old ones were useful and had great range, but could leave you in an unfortunate amount of lag frames when you wiffed them. They were easy to punish with a spotdodge and were basically worthless as an option OoS.

ZSS still has a fantastic dashdance, and the new grab's range is actually pretty huge for a non-tether, especially if jump-cancelled.
The alterations to nair are not fantastic, but they do allow you to lead into fair more effectively, which is now a viable (and effective) killing move since the second hit no longer stales. Her forward-b feels like it will become important in the new meta, probably replacing blaster as it has a tendency to shield poke and even with good DI is easy to combo off of.

I feel like this patch stripped away a lot of the gimmicks/set combos people were relying on and is forcing them to revert to/learn more strategic play instead of guaranteed BnB combos and tech. This is probably a good thing for the game in the long run, even if it sucks right now.
 

ThreeSided

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The removal of dash cancelled blaster certainly hurts (and makes blaster basically worthless), but I'm going to go ahead and back the unpopular opinion of liking her new grabs.

The old ones were useful and had great range, but could leave you in an unfortunate amount of lag frames when you wiffed them. They were easy to punish with a spotdodge and were basically worthless as an option OoS.

ZSS still has a fantastic dashdance, and the new grab's range is actually pretty huge for a non-tether, especially if jump-cancelled.
The alterations to nair are not fantastic, but they do allow you to lead into fair more effectively, which is now a viable (and effective) killing move since the second hit no longer stales. Her forward-b feels like it will become important in the new meta, probably replacing blaster as it has a tendency to shield poke and even with good DI is easy to combo off of.

I feel like this patch stripped away a lot of the gimmicks/set combos people were relying on and is forcing them to revert to/learn more strategic play instead of guaranteed BnB combos and tech. This is probably a good thing for the game in the long run, even if it sucks right now.
I think most people agree that this ZSS is a better character than the old one. That's not the issue. What people don't like is taht everything that made her interesting is gone, and she's pretty much just not the same character any more.
 

jeck95

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She is definitely not the same as her 3.02 self but I don't think that makes her less interesting than before. One thing I noticed though was that her throws seem to depend on the character's weight then fall speed. I think the difference is noticeable when you d-throw samus vs meta knight vs jiggs vs bowser. Throwing samus or bowser seems slower than throwing meta knight or jiggs. I think it is more weight dependent than fall speed dependent.
 

Gいたん

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Serious question: Have you been beating up on CPU's this whole time, or have you been able to play against competent players?

I thought she was *ok* when I first booted up the game and started playing, but when I went to a Smash fest and played humans who apply proper DI, not stand to get hit by lasers..........she felt insignificant.
Do you really think I would enter a discussion thread with no human experience under my belt?
Of course I was fighting real people, have been grinding out against my training partner getting used to the game and prepping for tournaments since the release.
He has intelligent DI and is a very competent player, and I have found great followups to all of her grabs off of tech chases and reads, she is just played differently, and I think that's the problem most people are having.
 

Foo

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No, not everyone agrees that 3.5 zss is better than 3.0 zss. I think 3.0 zss was MUCH better than this one.
 

Legit

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I think most people agree that this ZSS is a better character than the old one. That's not the issue. What people don't like is taht everything that made her interesting is gone, and she's pretty much just not the same character any more.
I actually disagree. Not saying this just because I don't like the new ZSS, but I feel that her changes removed a lot of her options in neutral and ruined her combo game. Sure she's stronger against spacies now, but I think overall she got worse. Maybe non-ZSS mains would agree that she's better now, but I think the majority of us mains think otherwise.
 
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Shokio

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I think most people agree that this ZSS is a better character than the old one. That's not the issue. What people don't like is taht everything that made her interesting is gone, and she's pretty much just not the same character any more.
Definitely not true. I've only seen like literally 2 people (you guys lol) who are actually ok with her changes.
 

JANKX

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The new ZSS... I was somewhat irked at first, then I got used to the new grab, as well as spacing my paralyzer since the old run 'n gun is gone. Now I don't mind the the new design so much, but admit that she feels different, and I still miss the old playstyle. Then I thought of a brilliant idea that wouldn't be too hard to implement...

PMDT should implement a taunt-toggle to switch between the new grab/paralyzer and classic 3.02 mechanics. Best of both worlds. And maybe the color of the shots could change to indicate which mode you're in, much like Samus' fire and ice beams have a cosmetic difference.
 
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Legit

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The new ZSS... I was somewhat irked at first, then I got used to the new grab, as well as spacing my paralyzer since the old run 'n gun is gone. Now I don't mind the the new design so much, but admit that she feels different, and I still miss the old playstyle. Then I thought of a brilliant idea that wouldn't be too hard to implement...

PMDT should implement a taunt-toggle to switch between the new grab/paralyzer and classic 3.02 mechanics. Best of both worlds. And maybe the color of the shots could change to indicate which mode you're in, much like Samu's fire and ice beams have a cosmetic difference.
Very unlikely they'd ever consider that lol. Then again, Zelda/Sheik players have the convenience of being able to switch between the two at will.

We'd all stay on 3.02 ZSS anyway, so what's the point? :)
 

InfinityCollision

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It's hard to say which version was functionally superior, as that's a comparison best made relative to their respective peers rather than relative to each other. Many other characters saw nerfs in transition to 3.5, and there's the global engine changes to consider as well. Either way, @ ThreeSided ThreeSided is right in saying that the playstyle change is the primary issue here.
 
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Gいたん

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All in all I'd at least say give her more of a chance before instantly jumping to the conclusion of her being worse or not as good as 3.02. The update has only been out for a few days.
All of the other characters were changed too, so it's not like she was changed to be made worse while everyone else wasn't. I still don't even believe she is worse with all of the other changes included, and hell with her recovery being better too I feel like in 3.02 she'd still be good if not better.
I think she works well in the new style of gameplay 3.5 has.
Just please consider giving it time before instantly jumping to a conclusion like making a petition.
 
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$heen

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Let me address the reasoning behind a few of the changes:

Grab/Laser: The grab change was largely due to making her match her character archetype. She has a really strong dash dance/combo game, similar to Falcon/Marth, but the lack of a standing grab to threaten shields really holds her back in the long run. Laser had to be changed because dash cancelled laser in tandem with standing grab is absurdly broken in the neutral game and I think it's fairly obvious why. Yes, this means that her laser went from one of the best projectiles to one of the worst, but let's not forget that her grab went from the absolute worst frame-wise to the standard for all other characters. Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now. If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.
And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup. She pretty had guaranteed followups on almost any character at any %.

Dair: In 3.02, with the hitlag modifiers and low cooldown, dair was +0 on shield. Dair -> dair -> dair on shield was unreasonably hard to punish and required almost no commitment from the ZSS player. Right now, dair on shield is -7, which is still really hard to punish, especially with the drift mixup. Her combo game was hurt a bit as a by-product but that was slightly offset by the increased knockback. If you learn the new IASA timing, it's actually not that bad.

Divekick: In 3.02, this used to have IASA during an active hitbox, which we've learned is a huge violation of smash mechanics (see: 2.5 Sonic).



Please don't look at these changes in a vacuum and say that ZSS is now a bad character. If you put 3.5 ZSS in 3.02, she would probably be slightly worse, but then again, almost character would. We knew the laser change would be controversial and there would be backlash, but don't forget that all the other centralizing projectiles in 3.02 (fireballs, shadowballs, boomerangs, bananas, Din's fires) were also adjusted. Before making rushed judgments, please consider her new strengths and weaknesses in regards to the new metagame and our more refined design philosophy.
 

Kati

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Soo.... anyone else notice anything odd with retro Zamus' eyes?

 

Gいたん

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Let me address the reasoning behind a few of the changes:

Laser had to be changed because dash cancelled laser in tandem with standing grab is absurdly broken in the neutral game and I think it's fairly obvious why. Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now. If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.
And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup. She pretty had guaranteed followups on almost any character at any %.

Dair: In 3.02, with the hitlag modifiers and low cool-down, dair was +0 on shield. Dair -> dair -> dair on shield was unreasonably hard to punish and required almost no commitment from the ZSS player. Right now, dair on shield is -7, which is still really hard to punish, especially with the drift mixup. Her combo game was hurt a bit as a by-product but that was slightly offset by the increased knockback. If you learn the new IASA timing, it's actually not that bad
Thank you for clarifying this, and I knew I wasn't crazy when I said that her old grab wasn't a DI mixup and always had garunteed follow up.
I definitely get that the dash canceled laser would have been broken in the meta now that I think about it, and she doesn't really need it. Was cool though.

I personally love the new ZSS in this new meta game. I think her grabs were designed really well and I love comboing with her, props to the Dev team.
 

InfinityCollision

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While I understand your points regarding her combo tools, the fact remains that further changes resulting in playstyle homogenization were unnecessary. As you pointed out, we already have characters that fill that archetype in various ways. ZSS's differentiating traits were valuable; complete removal of such things is best left as a last resort option. 3.02's ZSS was not nearly so dire as to warrant such a choice.

Given the choice between a "bad" grab, a good projectile, and a unique playstyle vs a "good" grab, a bad projectile, and a normalized playstyle, the better design path should be clear. Subtle changes would have adequately served all parties as well or better than completely rewriting the book on the character as a whole.
 
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Ouroboro

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Im not sure that explaination really settles the feeling of alienation I get from my own character. I kinda feel like the Zero suit mains and the dev team view what 3.2 was.
 
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gmBottles

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If you guys really don't like it I'd honestly say just find a new main. These changes are for the better. The dash cancelled laser was broken anyway, so removing it just made sense. And after playing her with both a tether grab and a normal grab, I can say that the normal grab suits her better. Though, I still think that since it is very early in new ZSS' life, changes can still be made, but I also think that it'd be best to just adjust to the changes, because, at least for me, I've found them very beneficial.

Edit: Thinking about it now, I realize that it is hard to just drop everything you've learned and find a new main, but considering how different the character is now, it might be pretty much the same as relearning her.
 
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Legit

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Let me address the reasoning behind a few of the changes:

Grab/Laser: The grab change was largely due to making her match her character archetype. She has a really strong dash dance/combo game, similar to Falcon/Marth, but the lack of a standing grab to threaten shields really holds her back in the long run. Laser had to be changed because dash cancelled laser in tandem with standing grab is absurdly broken in the neutral game and I think it's fairly obvious why. Yes, this means that her laser went from one of the best projectiles to one of the worst, but let's not forget that her grab went from the absolute worst frame-wise to the standard for all other characters. Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now. If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.
And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup. She pretty had guaranteed followups on almost any character at any %.

Dair: In 3.02, with the hitlag modifiers and low cooldown, dair was +0 on shield. Dair -> dair -> dair on shield was unreasonably hard to punish and required almost no commitment from the ZSS player. Right now, dair on shield is -7, which is still really hard to punish, especially with the drift mixup. Her combo game was hurt a bit as a by-product but that was slightly offset by the increased knockback. If you learn the new IASA timing, it's actually not that bad.

Divekick: In 3.02, this used to have IASA during an active hitbox, which we've learned is a huge violation of smash mechanics (see: 2.5 Sonic).



Please don't look at these changes in a vacuum and say that ZSS is now a bad character. If you put 3.5 ZSS in 3.02, she would probably be slightly worse, but then again, almost character would. We knew the laser change would be controversial and there would be backlash, but don't forget that all the other centralizing projectiles in 3.02 (fireballs, shadowballs, boomerangs, bananas, Din's fires) were also adjusted. Before making rushed judgments, please consider her new strengths and weaknesses in regards to the new metagame and our more refined design philosophy.
Hey @ $heen $heen , didn't even know you were on the PMDT haha :)

A lot of these make sense. In particular, being able to jump out of divekick during its hitbox was pretty ridiculous, dair being +0 was admittedly hard for an opponent to deal with, and I agree that having DCP with a normal grab would be downright broken. I understand we can't have everything and that certain things are simply not a part of the development team's design goals.

Most of our sentiments stem from 3.5 ZSS feeling completely different from 3.02 ZSS. A lot of her mobility was removed due to the removal of DCP and added frames to her throws, and her combo game was severely gimped due to the latter as well as nerfs to many of her other staple moves (dair and nair immediately come to mind). I personally don't think new ZSS is a bad character, just different. The things that made her unique and interesting to me were altered or removed outright.

I know the PMDT has their goals, and that these changes reflect them. Many people will probably pick up ZSS and a result of these, and that's fine. A lot of us are just troubled that our favorite character's playstyle has been so significantly altered to the point that we may not even enjoy playing her anymore.

Ignoring your team's design philosophy, I was wondering what are your personal thoughts on ZSS's 3.5 changes? :)
 
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InfinityCollision

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If you guys really don't like it I'd honestly say just find a new main.
This isn't really an acceptable way to approach the matter. Diversity is healthy for a fighting game. 3.02 ZSS brought a variety of unique characteristics to the table. Removing variety reduces the breadth of options that a player can choose from.

I liked 3.02 ZSS because she filled a particular niche that I happen to enjoy, and in 3.5 much of that is gone. This is a net loss for my enjoyment of the game; framing it as if I have the option of simply picking someone else up is misleading because I already could (and did) play any character I enjoy as I please.
 
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gmBottles

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This isn't really an acceptable way to approach the matter. Diversity is healthy for a fighting game. 3.02 ZSS brought a variety of unique characteristics to the table. Removing variety reduces the breadth of options that a player can choose from.

I liked 3.02 ZSS because she filled a particular niche that I happen to enjoy, and in 3.5 much of that is gone. This is a net loss for my enjoyment of the game; framing it as if I have the option of simply picking someone else up is misleading because I already could (and did) play any character I enjoy as I please.
Yeah, I realized that that was a pretty bad way to put it and had put an edit at the end of the post. I guess I mostly mean that there's no use complaining about something that is better for the game as a whole, and if you can't deal with it then good luck to you.
 
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Ouroboro

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Basically, the character that brought us the most enjoyment in this game, was taken away. So I guess we go with the character that brought us the second most enjoyment in the game.

That's what i'm hearing right?
 

gmBottles

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Think about what's in the game now over what used to be. Unless you want to run your own tourney with PM 3.02, you're honestly just gonna have to deal with the changes. The PMBR know what they are doing, and I'm sure they didn't release 3.5 just to say "lol **** those ZSS mains right?"
 

InfinityCollision

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Yeah, I realized that that was a pretty bad way to put it and had put an edit at the end of the post. I guess I mostly mean that there's no use complaining about something that is better for the game as a whole, and if you can't deal with it then good luck to you.
Normally I would agree (dealt with this a few times back when I played a certain MMO), but we have the benefit of the dev team's ear here and I don't think that the grab/paralyzer rewrite is necessarily the best option they could have chosen. I don't have much hope for a reversion, but it's better than no hope and I'll do what I reasonably can to maximize the odds.

As I pointed out previously, the crux of the problem is a difference in priorities. The ZSS design team regarded the changed elements as, and I quote, "unique eccentricities that fell outside of the target scope of design". Numerics, Foo, Shokio, myself, and the others consider such unique traits important to her design, elements worth preserving. Yes, even the tether grab - I hear Numerics is quite the fan of it for instance, and I'll freely admit that it permits some interesting options even if it restricts others.

I do not believe it is too late for a mutually acceptable outcome, one that meets the design and balance standards of the PMDT while preserving the unique traits that we want to retain.
 
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Ouroboro

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It's very plausible that a few guys on a message forum don't actually change the landscape. I get that.

Regardless, this is authentic player feedback, and considering the PMBR keep releasing more versions and updates, Authentic player feedback is something I imagine is important somewhere in the scheme of things. We will switch mains, or we will tough it out and try to relearn the character, in pure dedication I guess, or we will stop playing.

So i guess you're right, we'll suck it up.
 
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gmBottles

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Normally I would agree (dealt with this a few times back when I played a certain MMO), but we have the benefit of the dev team's ear here and I don't think that the grab/paralyzer rewrite is necessarily the best option they could have chosen. I don't have much hope for a reversion, but it's better than no hope and I'll do what I reasonably can to maximize my chances.

As I pointed out previously, the crux of the problem is a difference in priorities. The ZSS design team regarded the changed elements as, and I quote, "unique eccentricities that fell outside of the target scope of design". Numerics, Foo, Shokio, myself, and the others consider such unique traits important to her design, elements worth preserving. I do not believe it is too late for a mutually acceptable outcome, one that meets the design and balance standards of the PMDT while preserving what we love about the character.
I honestly can understand why you and every other 3.02 ZSS main would be upset and want the changes reverted, but I stand by the fact that the PMBR probably did it for a reason. I'm thinking about whether it is good for the rest of the game as a whole. Every character was nerfed, ZSS is no exception.

I suppose that I'm simply more comfortable with her since I didn't play her in 3.02, but since I am comfortable with these changes, I think that they'll benefit the character in the long run.
 

$heen

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Hey @ $heen $heen , didn't even know you were on the PMDT haha :)

A lot of these make sense. In particular, being able to jump out of divekick during its hitbox was pretty ridiculous, dair being +0 was admittedly hard for an opponent to deal with, and I agree that having DCP with a normal grab would be downright broken. I understand we can't have everything and that certain things are simply not a part of the development team's design goals.

Most of our sentiments stem from 3.5 ZSS feeling completely different from 3.02 ZSS. A lot of her mobility was removed due to the removal of DCP and added frames to her throws, and her combo game was severely gimped due to the latter as well as nerfs to many of her other staple moves (dair and nair immediately come to mind). I personally don't think new ZSS is a bad character, just different. The things that made her unique and interesting to me were altered or removed outright.

I know the PMDT has their goals, and that these changes reflect them. Many people will probably pick up ZSS and a result of these, and that's fine. A lot of us are just troubled that our favorite character's playstyle has been so significantly altered to the point that we may not even enjoy playing her anymore.

Ignoring your team's design philosophy, I was wondering what are your personal thoughts on ZSS's 3.5 changes? :)
Like many of you, I will also miss the ridiculous lopsidedness of 3.02 ZSS, but I got used to the standing grab pretty quickly. Near the end of 3.02, people had gotten so used to ZSS that going for grabs was almost never viable, so I predict that this ZSS will scale up with the metagame much better.

Also let me know when you're in the bay area again so we can do more ZSS dittos.
 

gmBottles

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It's very plausible that a few guys on a message forum don't actually change the landscape. I get that.

Regardless, this is authentic player feedback, and considering the PMBR keep releasing more versions and updates, Authentic player feedback is something I imagine is important somewhere in the scheme of things. We will switch mains, or we will tough it out and try to relearn the character, in pure dedication I guess, or we will stop playing.

So i guess you're right, we'll suck it up.
I totally get where you're coming from. However, while player feedback is important, making sure that the game remains balanced is also important. I suppose that if some sort of inbetween is found, then there's a chance that something can be altered, but I don't think old ZSS will be coming back with these drastic changes made to the entire roster.
 

Ouroboro

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I realize I'm still in the post update salt, so I'm just going to have to wait and see what becomes of the character.
 

InfinityCollision

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I totally get where you're coming from. However, while player feedback is important, making sure that the game remains balanced is also important. I suppose that if some sort of inbetween is found, then there's a chance that something can be altered, but I don't think old ZSS will be coming back with these drastic changes made to the entire roster.
I think it's been made adequately clear that we're not opposed to nerfs (and that this isn't about nerfs anyway), so you should probably stop framing your arguments along those lines. The PMDT has also made it clear that paralyzer changes were at least partially a reaction to how it interacted with the grab changes. I don't know if 3.02 paralyzer fits within the 3.5 meta, but if reverting her grab at least lets us get close then it's better than what we have now. Leave it clankable, set the cancel a few frames later or make it JCable instead, whatever.

We knew change was coming, we know why it happened, but the debated changes were made for reasons largely independent of their design philosophy. Believe me, I get what they're trying to accomplish with 3.5 and I've remained largely quiet on changes to my characters as a result. I've only voiced complaints regarding two characters that I play, one because I feel that some changes were poorly implemented and the other (ZSS) because they result in a loss of character identity.
 
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Foo

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Let me address the reasoning behind a few of the changes:

Grab/Laser: The grab change was largely due to making her match her character archetype. She has a really strong dash dance/combo game, similar to Falcon/Marth, but the lack of a standing grab to threaten shields really holds her back in the long run. Laser had to be changed because dash cancelled laser in tandem with standing grab is absurdly broken in the neutral game and I think it's fairly obvious why. Yes, this means that her laser went from one of the best projectiles to one of the worst, but let's not forget that her grab went from the absolute worst frame-wise to the standard for all other characters. Her throws were reduced to positioning throws to offset how easy it is for her to get a grab now. If they didn't have as much endlag as they do, she would have been able to chain grab a lot of characters.
And for the record, 3.02 ZSS's throws were not a DI mixup. She pretty had guaranteed followups on almost any character at any %.

Dair: In 3.02, with the hitlag modifiers and low cooldown, dair was +0 on shield. Dair -> dair -> dair on shield was unreasonably hard to punish and required almost no commitment from the ZSS player. Right now, dair on shield is -7, which is still really hard to punish, especially with the drift mixup. Her combo game was hurt a bit as a by-product but that was slightly offset by the increased knockback. If you learn the new IASA timing, it's actually not that bad.

Divekick: In 3.02, this used to have IASA during an active hitbox, which we've learned is a huge violation of smash mechanics (see: 2.5 Sonic).



Please don't look at these changes in a vacuum and say that ZSS is now a bad character. If you put 3.5 ZSS in 3.02, she would probably be slightly worse, but then again, almost character would. We knew the laser change would be controversial and there would be backlash, but don't forget that all the other centralizing projectiles in 3.02 (fireballs, shadowballs, boomerangs, bananas, Din's fires) were also adjusted. Before making rushed judgments, please consider her new strengths and weaknesses in regards to the new metagame and our more refined design philosophy.
The main problem isn't her balance though, it's that she isn't ZSS anymore. I think the problem all originates in her new grab. When you realized that her grab was too strong with all the tools she currently had, this is how it SHOULD have been done.

> Give ZSS normal grab.
> Whoops, this gives her chain grabs and way too much reward for a low risk grab.
> Whoops her neutral b is broken with her new grab
> Whoops, her nair is too good with her new grab.
> Let's change her grab back

At this point, you guys decided to remove the aspects that made her grab broken, when you should have just reverted the grab change instead.

The problem isn't that the character is underpowered now, cause she's not, it's that she's a DIFFERENT character. I have spent hours upon hours in the lab figuring out ZSS, learning all of her quirks, and now everything that made her special is removed. THAT'S why people don't like these changes.

The design philosophy changes are fine. Make her nair combos a little harder, sure. Her dair was a little dumb, sure. Her dive kick should be cancelable during hitbox, absolutely. Those are all minor tweaks, and no one has a big problem with those. However, straight up removing her bread and butter options are not acceptable in my eyes.

I loved 3.0 ZSS so much that I have spent tons of time researching, studying frame data, making my combos as tight as possible and posting threads to share my knowledge and now that's all for nothing, because the new ZSS is totally different. Not only that, but I don't even like the new ZSS.



Whatever you have to do to make her balanced and prevent her from committing design sins, go ahead, but the change to her grab and all the subsequent changes to make her new grab not broken were unwarranted, and do not fix her character.

@ gmBottles gmBottles Don't toss the criticism off as useless. If we make enough noise, the devs will respond more and more. We've already had two official responses. There's a least a chance they'll return her to 3.0 style if we make well thought out, articulate, and respectful points and enough ZSS players back them up.
 
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Roxas215

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If you guys really don't like it I'd honestly say just find a new main. These changes are for the better. The dash cancelled laser was broken anyway, so removing it just made sense. And after playing her with both a tether grab and a normal grab, I can say that the normal grab suits her better. Though, I still think that since it is very early in new ZSS' life, changes can still be made, but I also think that it'd be best to just adjust to the changes, because, at least for me, I've found them very beneficial.

Edit: Thinking about it now, I realize that it is hard to just drop everything you've learned and find a new main, but considering how different the character is now, it might be pretty much the same as relearning her.
If dash canceled laser was so broken why did NO ONE win with it??

Fireballs were Broken. Boomerang was broken. Lucas ice ball was broken AND THE RESULTS PROVED THIS.

Zss never won a major. I dont even think it top 3'd at a major. Zss was in NO ONES top 5. Dash canceled laser wasn't broken at all and it made her unique. Ill take that over a "good grab" any day of the week.

If anything was "broken" about 3.02 zss it was her dair being so safe on sheild. Not dash canceled laser.
 
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gmBottles

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@ gmBottles gmBottles Don't toss the criticism off as useless. If we make enough noise, the devs will respond more and more. We've already had two official responses. There's a least a chance they'll return her to 3.0 style if we make well thought out, articulate, and respectful points and enough ZSS players back them up.
I didn't say it was useless, more so that balance throughout the entire game will probably come before reverting a single character back. I'm just not sure 3.0 ZSS fits with the 3.5 meta game. I admit though that it is way to early to judge that entirely. The big thing that I've noticed is that the old ZSS mains don't like her, and those new to the character do, so it is obviously a huge change, and I understand why people are upset. I, personally, don't understand why, because I absolutely love this new ZSS, much more than 3.0 ZSS. I guess it'll all come down to preference in the end, but still believe that every change happened for a reason. That doesn't mean more changes can't happen though, that's what the PMBR are for.
 

Foo

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Oh, yeah, that reminds me. If dash canceled laser WAS too good, it doesn't need to be straight up REMOVED. Just make it later. I don't feel it needs to be canceled on the frame it comes out. If it needs to happen, make it come out 3-5 frames after the shot goes off and problem solved.

EDIT:

@ gmBottles gmBottles It's not that 3.5 ZSS is a bad character that is terrible designed and has no place in smash, it's that there are already so many characters like her and no more characters like 3.0 ZSS. It's really wrong to just rip out ZSS players main's out from under them. So much of my strength as a player was knowing my character like the back of my hand.

Imagine how much salt there would be if they removed jump cancel from shine. Even though I think fox and shine is broken, I wouldn't change it because it's wrong to so fundamentally uproot a character.
 
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gmBottles

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Everyone has made fair points. I understand better now why you are all upset. Thinking about the changes to my other older mains, the changes to ZSS are far more drastic. However, I do know that I'm not the only one who enjoys this version of ZSS more than the old one. I think she has mad potential, because she's still really good. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't give up on her, because while she might be a lot different than what you're all used to, she's still hella fun, and hella good.
 
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Shokio

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Ok, someone has to say it: The dash-cancel lasers weren't as good as people make them out to be.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great option and was pretty much the only way ZSS could apply pressure, but getting out of a grab-followed paralyzer was as simple as rolling TOWARD Samus. That's it. It wasn't broken in the slightest. If you did that, you'd safely roll past both the lazer and ZSS.

Or, ya know, you could just jump. Which I know of course is a forced option, but many chars had great Nairs to actually combat that maneuver such a Falcon. Jump forward and intercept the follow up, or, you could just jump back (the paralyzer was short, remember? So you wouldn't have to worry about falling down on it.)

People overrate that mechanic simply because they didn't know how to combat it.

And this if food for thought: How bout they restore the dash-cancel, but keep it clankable? I think everyone on both sides would be satisfied with that.
 
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Strong Badam

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Shokio, Dash Canceled Paralyzer certainly had counterplay in 3.02 because of how poor her grab was. In 3.5, if she still had it, she would be capable of a very dangerous RPS despite committing very little to it. Paralyzer -> Dash -> JC grab, even if they roll, they don't get to punish, and in most cases have just put themselves in a worse position from which they will be pressured by more paralyzers. It would not be possible to punish her grab on whiff with her new grabs after rolling to avoid them, unlike 3.02. Dash canceled special moves are also reasonably weird and un-smash-like, so it was tough to justify keeping during this design shift. Perhaps this would be balanced in the long-run, but the PMDT have learned the hard way that it's much better to be safe, than sorry, in these types of situations.

@ Roxas215 Roxas215 I understand that it may be frustrating for a character that wasn't perceived as "too good" to be changed. However, we in the PMDT decided that for 3.5, we would shift our focus to the character's attacks and how they individually fit into our design goals, rather than make changes based on the character they were attached to (and in doing so, only properly adjusting the top ~half of the cast). You may think, "ZSS wasn't winning majors, what's up with the nerfs?" yet she still had moves and properties that did not fit with our design goals, and were thus changed. This was the best way we could remain unbiased and truly make progress toward our goal of a balanced cast that is in line with our goals, by trimming the fat from all characters. This is why I applied a significant amount of nerfs to Donkey Kong; while his entire kit was balanced in the context of the cast, his individual attributes and the resultant gameplay was not.
 
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