3.5 Pika Discussion Time!

[Cubelarooso]

I keep thinking about the Blogposts and feeling that there's nothing of comparable power to QAC in Melee outside of Spacies and maybe Float. This gets me paranoid that it'll stand out more in 3.5 and become the next heated subject, or that the DT may already predict issues, and so it might end up being changed in a way that gives up as much fun as it does power - such as a limitation on uses per airtime, or usability during only one of the zips. Thus I try to come up with preemptive QAC "nerfs" that don't sacrifice anything truly important but could avert a complete gutting. Such as:
If going into tumble removed the ability until Pikachu next touches the ground. This specifically targets the least interesting, most objectionable uses. IE, when recovering against an opponent (but not when returning after doing the edgeguarding), and as an escape from being juggled.

 

[Choice Scarf]

That sounds fair since you should be in a disadvantageous position and as it is now you can easily immediately bring it to your advantage instead of resetting it back to neutral. It would make edge cancelling a bit more necessary for both situations, but more technical precision is all in a Pika main's job. Not sure how'd you'd program that though.

But I don't think QAC is that powerful as you think it is. It doesn't cause enough damage for spacie-esque shield pressure, and float has the advantage of being usable everywhere and not just on the ground. Plus Pika has to commit when he uses it just like the rest of his moveset - he can still be anticipated and hit out of it. The mobility options and other uses from QAC feel less overpowering and more balancing when you remember Pika's overall range is super poor and lacking disjoint, and I always thought the utilities were the reward for putting in so much effort for the tech skill and spacing.

I don't think it will be completely gutted, especially since I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying Pika felt overpowered in any version of the game to date. But yeah paranoia sucks. We'll just have to see how the meta of the next version turns out. Whatever "trimming the fat" is, I'm hopeful that it means they'll reduce the potency of the options instead of getting rid of some completely.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I keep vacillating here.
Mains of other characters all seem to expect (and panic about) fat-trimming far less severe than I would deem justified, which makes me think maybe it's me who's overestimating how much Pikachu needs reeling in. Especially since there're no Pikachus in the DT to panic about suggested changes.
So now I'm leaning back towards my old stance that all the tweaks Pikachu needs are Melee fixes (Uthrow, Utilt, Skull Bash), backwards ledgegrab, no SB ledgegrab, and Melee Up-B landlag. I actually managed to get someone with Melee-Chu's Taunt IASA recently, and it was hilarious, so maybe that gimmick should return too.
Geez, the anticipation is killing me.

 

[Paradoxium]

I think we're safe for now, most people still think Pikachu is horrible and they have no idea how to play as him, so Pikachu has really slid under the radar.

Also the 3 best pikachu mains (Anther, Axe, Esam) are all legends from their respective games, so no one is suspecting that Pikachu is overpowered in any areas.

So for now I think we are all safe, but I'm predicting Pikachu is gonna be in the spotlight in the next update. With nerfed characters, nerfed crouch canceling, and nerfed recoveries Pikachu is really gonna start flexing his strengths. People are gonna start seeing how good Pikachu is which may raise some eyebrows.

 

[Choice Scarf]

It's all for the master plan of getting Pika attention for tweaks that will give him better overall design later on.

How did they nerf crouch cancelling though? That's relatively good for us right?

 

[Paradoxium]

They just said that they are toning down crouch cancelling, I'm not sure how they are gonna do it though. And Crouch cancelling gives Pikachu a very hard time, if you don't over shoot your nairs you will get punished regardless if you hit them or not.

 

[Choice Scarf]

QAC got nerfed a little bit.

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/pikachu

Quick Attack Cancel - Pikachu's main improvement over his Melee build is the ability to do anything you could do in the air for a short time after Quick Attacking into the ground. Although he is limited to QACing only the first burst in his upB and it requires some technical finesse, this allows Pikachu to move at great speeds and traverse platforms as a new approach or retreat option. It's even possible to hit an opponent with Neutral-Aerial or Waveland out of Quick Attack Cancel!

Basically only change confirmed so far is that QAC no longer works on the 2nd zip. This means recovering on the stage and long range chase downs no longer work, but it doesn't affect recovery to the edge and other edge/edge cancel tricks.

Also I'm changing the thread name since 3.5 launches tomorrow and it's no longer prediscussion, so discuss your speculation now while you still can!

 

[Cubelarooso]

Gutted.

 

[sheNanagans]

Saw this one coming tbh. I really hope they give a small buff to another approach option like fair/nair.

 

[Psyant]

Super sad about that change. I really, really don't like it. If they were concerned about recovery they should have made it so he can't QAC at all unless he has his double jump, which would effect his recovery but allow QAC to remain the same on stage.

Makes me sad thinking I'll never double angle QAC Nair anyone again. Also gonna make QAC way less useful for getting to platforms from below. I guess we can still at least QAC into the ground once then use another quick attack straight away to kind of get a double zip QAC.

 

[Vlade]

Agree with Psyant, I understand that QAC is ridiculous for recovery but by taking away the ability to QAC the second burst a part of pika's neutral game has taken a hit which I don't think was broken. QA is very easily punished when predicted in neutral. Gonna be pretty much impossible to do QA resets now too. Should have made it so that you can't QAC at all after using a double jump.

Hopefully Pika gets some kind of buff to make up for it. At least the universal nerf to crouch cancelling (that's still a thing right?) is an indirect buff to pikachu.

 

[Paradoxium]

Wow I was dead wrong, they went and did it. They actually did it lol

Looks like all that time I've spent learning QaC and footstool tech is all going to go to waist. If they wanted to nerf his recovery they could have just done what they did with Mewtwo and make it so you can't qac out of a second jump. I think the QaC change had more to do with it being an attack with burst movement, something that they said they wanted to get rid of.

 

[Cubelarooso]

No QAC after double jump wouldn't be good either, as that removes stuff like consecutive QAC-jumps, or QAC to refresh jumps during a juggle.
I think the best change would have been if QAC became impossible by being knocked into tumble. Then it retains all its important, fun, fair uses in neutral and punishes, but not as an escape when 'Chu is on defense.

I think it was probably changed just because no one on the team played Pikachu, so none of them had any idea how it worked nor cared what happened to him. Probably just saw it once, declared it Teleport+Spindash+Quick Draw+chips, then did the first thing that came to mind.

Spoiler

 

[Psyant]

I've been seeing what you can actually accomplish only QAC'ing off the first jump and honestly it's kinda sad. The thing is that when you could QAC by angling the second jump into the ground you were able to use the first one to travel further by aiming it fully horizontal. Now you only have one jump AND because you need to hit the ground to QAC, it has to be a diagonal/straight down zip which can't travel the same distance as a fully horizontal quick attack. In other words, QAC's effective range is not actually half of what it was, but even less than that.

If you want to, say, QAC Nair someone, you basically have to be close enough that someone like Marth/Roy is almost in range to hit you. I feel like I'll only use QAC now when it's cancelled into a waveland forward, because without the added waveland distance the range of quick attack with only one diagonal angle is just too short.

Using one zip and then instantly cancelling that into another quick attack is an option, but it's a lot slower than QAC as it is now, and obviously more linear and predictable.

So yeah, really disappointed with this change. I agree it kinda seems like it was just made out of ignorance. I think there were much better ways to handle QAC's recovery without damaging one of the most fun parts of the character, especially when it involves slaughtering the potential uses of a move the mains of that character put a lot of time into mastering.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I don't like how we can't feint using both zips or easily travel on the platforms, but after that I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be. That means saving QAC for safer scenarios like tech chasing instead of movement pressure, and I don't know, I can see how people would view Pika being able to chase you from one side of the stage to the other a bit ridiculous. I think the first zip is still long enough (comparable to SHFFL aerials) to just be out of range of most characters so it''s not like it's unusable. (I'd want tot test this but what's the longest reach move? Dedede's hammer?). And using QA in neutral was never that great of an idea to begin with since it's vulnerable to stronger hitboxes, and SHFFL aerials/tilts/general movement is still good enough for good evasion (unless they nerf those too).

But in that vein, this is only making Pikachu even harder to play effectively. Not only does your spacing has to be on point, you need more tech skill and precision to make sure your QACs are exactly what and where they are since you no longer have the second zip to correct yourself. You could also learn edge canceling and stuff but that just raises the effective tech floor even higher. It's basically pigeon holing Pikachu as an expert level character, which is good for dedicated players like us since that encourages more tech skill, but how will we get more people to play Pikachu if he keeps getting harder to play? He's already rarely used, so will he get proper attention in the metagame? We'll have to see what else he gets, but if there aren't more rewards for the prerequisite skill needed for Pika play... well I don't know what will happen but I'm probably paranoid won't get enough love by the design team or the community in the end.

 

[Cubelarooso]

It basically renders all the best uses either impossible, or near useless.
Can't navigate platforms. Can't overshoot. Can't really feint. Can't really jab cancel. Can't really aerial chase.
It's not what made Pikachu not-the-worst, but it's a major component in what made him fun, cool, and better than Melee. One of Pikachu's greatest weaknesses is that there's no one exploring him, and now there's even less of a reason to since he's significantly less fun, cool, and you could just play Melee.

Looking at the Tier List thread, the way no one there had any clue what QAC was, and then brought up the exact same half-baked way to pretend not to remove it, does not bode well for the future.
My only hope is that they change it between now and the inevitable bug-fix patch. That would give them enough time for as much testing as they probably put into this Pikachu.

Well that's 4 stages of grief down…

 

[Choice Scarf]

You can still feint with QAC in place. Jab cancel should still work on the first zip. Everything else is loss of utility but Pika already has good movement for that.

But I hope we're all still eager to play him. Remember all of the recovery nerfs! The meta should be in our favor, especially since Bair and Uair tailspike is still in the description. We just need to show Pika can kick ass with whatever cards we're dealt with. I just want my hand already dammit

 

[Choice Scarf]

Downloaded and ready. You guys probably aren't going to like this

Pikachu Changelist
Throws
-Throws now all use electric element on release.

Cool, plus u-throw release point seems fixed, looks good and aesthetic

Specials
-Up Special (Quick Attack)
-Up Special (Quick Attack) can now reverse ledgegrab on frames 10 to 16 from the special's end.

Confirmed, and great though situational

--Quick Attack Cancel (QAC) can now only be activated on the first dash.

Obviously biggest nerf, so less control on stage and in neutral. Everyone was already in uproar about it.

--Rebuilt such that it no longer ends just above the ground and then falls, which allowed aerial inputs. But instead moves cleanly into the QA landing animation. Many other small refinements make the move much more polished.

I don't understand this. All QACs lead to "ground" aerial options including attacks, specials, and the double jump. The only thing that changes is wavelands. Are you saying you want to take out QAC aerial attacks? And if so, why?

Upon trying it out, in practice it seems like QAC has an earlier and stricter timing now. I can't seem to do it consistently anymore. Or QAC pratfall. Wow they nerfed this a lot more than I thought.

-Side Special (Skull Bash) no longer ledge snaps mid animation.

But that's like the only other use that move has! And does that mean the hitboxes are the same too? Ugh.

DACUS nets negligible distance, it's not really worth it.

No smash taunts, Wizard hat changed to purple, and the new alt looks pretty dope.

Overall big nerfs, but the changes don't really tell how much thought was put into the rest of the moveset besides the recovery. Anyone know who works on Pikachu on the team?

 

[Kerenthar]

An obvious nerf. The DT just announces to nerf recoveries, not characters metagame so, this has not other explanation that just to keep Melee top tiers the PM top tiers, as always in each release. Too much optimistic if we think otherwise.

 

[BrianAure]

Poor Pikachu, I was trying to do QAC, guess it's nerfed. Pikachu is still my favorite, though ;o

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think you guys are being a little close minded, and aren't looking at the big picture. Sure it's fun, covers many uses at once, and isn't too technically demanding, but at the end of the day it doesn't seem very sensible design to allow him to have that. I don't think that you guys fully understand just how something like QAC, a burst movement option that fulfills many uses at once, effects the design and approach with the character.

So try not to get so forlorn with adjustment of this technique, pika still has great traditional forms of movement and abilities to keep him fun and interesting. Not to mention that QAC still exists, sure it's not as good and a little more situational, but that just means you'll have to be more creative with it's usage and make use of all his tools, as opposed to just one.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I am extremely disappointed in how they nerfed QAC honestly. I can understand nerfing it some, since the rest of the cast got recovery nerfs, but this was not the way to do it. I'd much rather see QAC limited in use, not completely changed. It takes out one of the funnest aspects of Pikachu, and I honestly don't spam it like some might but still know how fun it is to perform when I use it. Like it's been said above, a lot of people have put a lot of time into learning this move, along with Pika already being a very technical character. QAC could be limited based on double jump, as others said, or require a cooldown time, or some other usage restriction. But as it is now, I feel soured, like Pika has taken a huge step back instead of forward. "Useless" keeps coming to mind when I think about this QAC, because its applications have become so limited that it is almost better to just do something else unless you're in a very situational event. Even then the amount of practice and skill needed to use it in those times makes it feel like it's just not worth doing. It might be justified if his aerials all got buffs, but they didn't. There is literally no reward for learning this tech in such a tight window besides eye candy and one aerial your opponent might not expect.

In short, this makes me push away from PM Pika. I understand this is not a final version, but if it's not changed in some way later, I can't see myself enjoying the game and it really leaves a bad feeling in me overall.

 

[Psyant]

@ Mr.Pickle : QAC was never something that won matches for you. Quick Attack loses in priority to basically any hitbox, which meant QAC was only useful as an approach when you made a good read on your opponent or as an occasional mix-up. Anyone blindly spamming QAC would get punished for it hard. On top of that it took good precision and quite a lot of practice to be able to use it well. The nerf hardly promotes creativity either, because what you can do with QAC that's actually worth doing is extremely limited now.

Anyway, yeah, it's hardly all over for Pikachu with this change, but QAC was basically Pikachu's Shine in the time investment it took to master and now all that effort that went into learning to use it has been made much less worth it. People are naturally going to be upset about it.

Anyway, moving on, having Melee up throw back is amaaaazing. I think it might be even better than it was in Melee for chaingrabbing spacies. Seems to work for longer. With 4 great throws Pikachu easily has one of the best throw games now. Really helps soften the blow of losing QAC.

 

[Kerenthar]

... Not to mention that QAC still exists, sure it's not as good and a little more situational...

Broken, already. Add this to a broken grab range and a useless dash attack and you can tell then...

 

[Ace76]

Up throw release point was not fixed. Please I don't want the placebo effect of people thinking its changed when its not or that its a "little easier" to follow up on now. There is no noticeable difference and it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes for a reason.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Wait really? I thought they said they'd fix it? That means all it got was electricity?

Playing through again you're right, I'm mad now.

And for QAC the wording is the weirdest part of it:

Rebuilt such that it no longer ends just above the ground and then falls, which allowed aerial inputs. But instead moves cleanly into the QA landing animation. Many other small refinements make the move much more polished.

You can't just say this in detailed patch notes and think it's acceptable. What refinements? And again, why was it necessary to change QA like this in the first place?

 

[Psyant]

Up throw release point was not fixed. Please I don't want the placebo effect of people thinking its changed when its not or that its a "little easier" to follow up on now. There is no noticeable difference and it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes for a reason.

My bad if so, I was chaingrabbing CPUs and debug mode showed they were still in hitstun so I assumed it was fixed, but I didn't account for bad computer DI. Jeeze, that really sucks if it's still not fixed...

 

[Flawed]

This is really rough for me, about 2 weeks ago I started playing pikachu for fun as I used to in Melee, and I saw a lot of potential. I was pretty sure some other characters would be getting some minor nerfs, and I thought pikachu would excel with that. I realized I actually managed to get a really solid pika in 2 weeks after playing some serious friendlies, and was going to main him in 3.5.

Then the PMDT attacked.

This was the "cool" point about Pika for me. Quick attack into up air from across the stage- wasnt broken, wasn't unblockable, wasn't the perfect approach, but it was cool and flashy and sometimes rewarding. I'm quite sad that isn't an option anymore.

I'm actually struggling to find a new character now. I feel like I HAVE to.

 

[Ace76]

My bad if so, I was chaingrabbing CPUs and debug mode showed they were still in hitstun so I assumed it was fixed, but I didn't account for bad computer DI. Jeeze, that really sucks if it's still not fixed...

Its all good. I don't know if its the placebo but now im questioning if you might actually be right lol. Hopefully one of the devs comments on it.

 

[Boondocker]

Up throw is nasty now. Changrabs ftw.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I never used the CG in Melee, so I can't tell, but it seems different from 3.02, at least.
Skull Bash not grabbing the ledge is good; shouldn't have in the first place.
I'm glad they fixed reverse ledgegrab.


But QAC…
I'm not sure of my thoughts, yet.

I knew it was too good at circumventing disadvantage, and that QA -> fall through platform shouldn't have been a thing…
But he just seems so boring, now. Like, looking at other characters, no QAC makes a lot more sense. Most of the cast seems to have lost a lot of personality, which I can't say I like right now.

Maybe it's supposed to turn the game more to so-called fundamentals, favoring designs like Marth/Sheik/Falcon over Fox/Falco/Peach/Jiggs/ICs/Luigi/Yoshi, but I'm not sure that's the best idea in a game with so many characters. The former set's moves/stats just make them so overwhelmingly good at it I'm not sure other characters can keep up without becoming samey. It's honestly more like those "fundamentals" are just their "gimmicks."

The way QAC was "not" removed is still terrible and indicative of thoughtlessness.

Obviously, QAC was not OP, especially considering the moveset that was attached to it. Those who have actually used it know it was far too unsafe to be centralizing; indeed, it actually opened up whole new levels of strategy and tech that complemented, not competed with, the old, and made the game that much more enjoyable to play and amazing to watch.
But I don't think that's what they're going for; I think they want to make strategies a lot more contained, presumably to appeal to Melee purists who are scared of new matchups.

Removing PM Pikachu's QAC feels like removing a Spacies Shine; or if that thought makes you happy inside, removing Peach's Float or Luigi's WD. It was something that made truly Pikachu stand out, so people could pick him up and try it and think, "Wow, I like this character!" Without that incentive, they'd just move on to Sheik and think, "Wow, I can win with this character!"

Sure, Pika can probably still compete with his offstage-edgeguarding and small size. But why wouldn't I just play Melee? Or an easy character? Or one where my effort would be rewarded?

And it makes me really salty to see QD still out there, and once-per-airtime moves, and the deserved love Ganondorf received, and even the overly-good flaws retained in Luigi's moveset.

I think spammable, centralizing moves were the problem in 3.02, not unique character traits. I found figuring out the new matchups to be the draw of PM, and I don't think PM can ever compete with the depth of Melee's micro-interactions, which stems from the thoroughness with which its six characters have been explored. Nor should it; Melee already fills the the role of Melee perfectly, just as Marth fills the role of Marth.
Overall, I'm just initially disappointed in the path PM has taken. I wanted nerfs, but aimed at the jank, not the characters. Maybe things will turn out different over time; the DT does have a lot of experience (not with Pikachu) at this point. I just don't think this genre will ever get anywhere until it can be more than Melee.


Also, gg Mr. Voice.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I just want assurance that someone on the PMDT is actually looking at Pikachu in depth and monitoring his meta. If you look at the rest of the changelog, the nerfs were more severe to most other characters but they were also much more detailed and comprehensive.

What do pro players think? Anyone know Anther/Axe/Esam or anyone else?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I just want assurance that someone on the PMDT is actually looking at Pikachu in depth and monitoring his meta. If you look at the rest of the changelog, the nerfs were more severe to most other characters but they were also much more detailed and comprehensive.

What do pro players think? Anyone know Anther/Axe/Esam or anyone else?

I AM ANTHERS DISCIPLE

and I asked him about Pikachu in 3.5 and the QaC nerfs, and he said he doesn't think it affected Pikachu that much. The only thing they did was stop him from doing his flashy combos. Other than that Pikachu is still a solid character overall, and all the match ups that gave him trouble have become much easier.

So Anther is pretty much unaffected by he QaC nerfs, even though he used the QaC more than anyone else.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Interesting. Then there's some disparity separating us with higher tier players, which is probably just experience.

Does he know what the "polish" is on QA?

 

[Scatz]

You can still do everything from QAC. The pressure from it is still applicable, but moreso based on positioning and ability to condition for much more accessible cross ups. If anything, I really like how he feels. His typical pressure game isn't affected, and now he should be able to edgeguard much more effectively.

 

[Anther]

Well... I wouldn't say unaffected.
I don't have any useful judgements in regard to QAC's nerf yet. It's effectively removed as a recovery tool and doesn't make sense to use it for chasing anymore (Which is sad! No more quick attack wake-ups ). It was never free as a recovery against anyone that actually plays the matchup though.. as you can actually cover the option without losing position.

I think the worst part is that pika no longer has.. his cool pm thing anymore. He's just normal... and worse off vs a cast that's super good...

Interesting. Then there's some disparity separating us with higher tier players, which is probably just experience.

Does he know what the "polish" is on QA?

The polish is pika's landing lag is doubled from landing a quick attack into the ground compared to 3.0. >.>
I actually don't like this change. It's brutal!

 

[Vlade]

On the bright side a lot of the top tiers from 3.0 got it pretty bad, hopefully these nerfs will make a lot of matchups much better for us (mario, pit, metaknight to name a few). As a pika main I certainly rejoiced when I saw the changelogs of other characters lol.

Agree with Anther though, QAC was cool and unique and something that will be sorely missed. And don't say "you can still do it on the first burst" because it's just not the same anymore.

Will have to do some testing with actual players to confirm what these throw changes do, I mean electricity is supposed to give 1.5x hitstun but it's kinda hard to tell if we actually can chaingrab spacies without testing against a human. Same goes for dthrow follow ups, there may be more follow up opportunities and potential CGs, who knows.

 

[Anther]

Yeah, quick attack cancel is purely for flash now. It's removed from the game while pika has nothing amazing compared to the rest of the cast's general buffs in their neutral games. I've felt like he's practically designed to live longer due to nothing spectacular about his neutral, but now losing it means his recovery options are either get to the ledge or be punished really hard. I'm just disappointed that pikachu was nerfed when nothing showed that the option was overpowered with the words "better safe than sorry."

Stuff like sex kicks beat QAC, but QAC lets pikachu get back on the stage for free if he's close enough along with the fact that the move has little commitment, since he can do it but not approach with it.

Burst of movement with little to no risk, eww

Edit: IMO, QAC should be impossible during the 2nd part of up b, only first. I think the only reason it can't currently be fixed to that is because of technical limitations.

I think someone on the dev team read this post from Lunchables and did exactly that, not even taking in the fact that it's useless making it conditional. The move is nothing but commitment with fixed points of where you can land. The key is that it has to even touch the ground, so half of the movement is purely open to being punished >.>. Secondly by the nature of it, you have no double jump!!! Shielding pika's very laggy from the ground aerials and hitting him means he no longer even has a jump. It's not magical 360 movement anywhere you so desire.

He played me a few times on netplay and immediately and in a very annoying fashion decided it was broken after I used it to get around a bunch of projectile spam, while anyone else I play consistently has no problem stuffing it like any other normal approach option. It's just a different character matchup to learn.

I think the reasoning for it being removed was unfair, especially considering that you can only USEFULLY use it from a few positions. You can't be super high above the stage and use it to recover. You have to literally move through your opponent.

I'm actually even more outraged that someone used a pikachu ditto to declare it was broken. -.-;

Sorry if my post has spelling and grammar mistakes, it's liek... .. I don't even know why I'm still awake.

 

[Psyant]

It does just seem like an unfair change based on perhaps lack of knowledge of Pikachu from the PM dev's part. It's not like it stood out as ridiculous or Pikachu was winning tournaments much in general. TKBreezy mentioned the QAC nerf on stream at Xanadu yesterday, and basically everyone in the chat was just like "Why would they nerf that?". Same goes for what I've seen on other social media. Even non-Pika mains are kind of confused as to why it got butchered.

What's even more depressing is that I've seen several people say they just don't see the point in playing Pikachu anymore, and he was already struggling with representation as it was. QAC was a good pull for people to play a character that has IMO a low effort/reward ratio as it was so fun. Not to say Pikachu doesn't have the potential, but it takes time to bring it out and start winning with him. Without QAC there's a lot less reason for people to bother looking into playing Pikachu.

 

[Shaeden]

I don't play pikachu, but I do play against anther a lot. I truly think pikachu is in a terrible spot now. The nerf not only hurts pikachu immensely, but it also makes playing against pikachu a lot less interesting.