3.5 Pika Discussion Time!

[Choice Scarf]

All speculation for PM 3.5 Pikachu can go here. Topics can range from potential meta shifts to move tweaks to easter eggs (moar smash taunts plz )

We can start with the little we currently know: the recovery nerfs. Though we don't know which characters will get the short end of the stick, the recoveries of most characters are said to be less free, but what does that mean for Pikachu? On one hand, Pika will probably have a better time gimping some recoveries that were too safe before, which can mean Pika's dominance offstage will pose a greater threat. But Pika's recovery may also be nerfed, meaning less ability to go deep offstage for kills. I personally think that since Pika's recovery has always been a major selling point to the character, it shouldn't be changed too much if at all, but there's always the fear that it can.

What do you all expect is in store for our favorite electric rat?

EDIT (11/14/14) 3.5 is out! This thread is now normal discussion! How's Pika doing for y'all?

 

[Zerthex]

I piked up Pika because of his recovery and stayed for everything else. I don't see any problems in his moveset or mobility. I just want more hats.

On the subject of recovery, though I'd hate to admit it, Pika's QAC should be tweaked.

• All recoveries have some sort of opening, whether it's the start-up, during, or ending/landing lag. As far as I know, no character can quickly Up B or side B to the stage and instantly attack, unless they get a ledge cancel, so it's in most characters best interests to sweetspot the ledge rather than risk being punished on stage.

• With this mechanic, at the right distances from the ledge, players can easily recover with Pikachu's many quick atttack angle combinations and not be punished. Edge guarding is possible but an opponent must be in the right spot to edge-guard Pikachu or just let him back and possibly give Pikachu the advantage. Pikachu has way to many options out of the best in-game recovery.

I'm no game designer but I think letting that Pikachu QAC from only the ground keeps his strong neutral game strong while balancing out his recovery.

 

[Comet7]

Pikachu will probably be able to gimp more, since other characters' recoveries will probably be nerfed. Yes, no more DEEP KONG. Maybe his up throw will be fixed.

I don't think Pikachu's recovery should be nerfed, since that's one of the best things about him, and should continue to be one of his strengths.

 

[MisterNipNips]

QAC is fine the way it is. Quick attack gets beat out or trades with almost any attack . Its punishable in its start up and during the quick attack itself. Pikachu has far too many negatives to give him more. Worst shield in game, One of the worst dash attacks, Worst grab range, puts himself in danger with every attack (hitbox is pretty much his hurtbox in every attack). He is perfectly balanced the way he is in my opinion. If they got rid of QAC they might as well just 1:1 melee pikachu. I would like his up-throw fixed/buffed though. That's a huge one.

 

[Rubix.]

Nerfing pikachu's QA that's crazy talk!!! Pikachus niche in the metagame is being able to score early kills by gimping BECAUSE of his great recovery! Take that away and all his MUs become much more difficult. You would have to rely on getting hard read after hard read to get in on your opponent. Plus his QAC... on second thought MOST of his moves are not very safe just like what MisterNipNips mentioned above. They should be fixing pikachu's moveset or at the very least leaving him the way he is since it feels like sometimes the risk is not worth the reward. Pikachu gets punished hard off of one mistake against certain characters .

 

[Angiance]

QA is gay, leave it that way~

 

[Recess]

I think pikachu is very strong in this game but compared to characters like diddy kong, pit, mewtwo, and lucas ive never seen/heard anything bad about pikachu. i think its because theres not as many competitive players using him to his full potential all the time or just using moves that so many call unfair. and with this recovery nerf its completely possible pikachu gets a rise in usage since the gimp potential is so high. but then people will complain about pikachu lol. the johns are never ending.

Ive been playing PM since April and competitively since June so im still new to the community but I really hope more players step up and use pikachu to his full potential.

For the next update im hoping he gets a scarf lmao. Not sure why but i would use that skin.

 

[Choice Scarf]

If it was something like Mystery Dungeon, that would look pretty nice and thematically simplistic

 

[Cubelarooso]

QAC doesn't really do too much for Pikachu's (already characteristically good) recovery, especially compared to all the utility and depth it provides onstage, as well its role as main attraction of an underused character. I don't think there's really a way you could change it without severely debilitating that, besides just making a failed one have more lag. Then again, that's probably what every main's saying about their own recovery options…
Ledge grab out of Skull Bash is certainly gone, though.

Honestly, I doubt Pikachu will get changed much simply because no one plays him, hence no one has reason to make changes, and wouldn't know what to change if they did.
The real impact on Pikachu will come from the changes to other characters. Much like Jigglypuff, I expect an incredible surge in perceived tier placement once he can play his gimp- and off-stage games on more of the cast. That and the continued balancing of the game shall significantly affect the way Pika plays, I expect.
I do hope they've been able to fix Uthrow, reverse ledge-grab, and Skull Bash's max-charge damage.

As for aesthetic stuff, I'd personally like for Pika's old cry on his entrance, and a costume based on Ethan/Gold's hat (preferably the original version), or, if not, one based on Yellow's (from the manga) hat.

 

[Angiance]

I feel like a few of our attacks could be better

Jab
Pikachu would be better off with a standard 1-2-3 Jab, like normal characters

Dash Attack
This attack should have much, much less recovery; enough so that we'd be able to combo from it

F-Tilt
We should be able to dash cancel this move on hit confirm, which would allow many things

U-Tilt
This attack could use a little bit more range, and a faster overall animation

T-Jolt
Maybe give it a transcendant hitbox

Skullbash
R.I.P.

Quick Attack
It'd be cool if this attack's hitbox knocked the opponent slightly up and in the direction Pikachu performed it, and also caused more hitstun

Thunder
This attack would be a lot more useful if we could run around freely while the lightning bolt was out, so then we could sort of combo into it as it's out

 

[9Kplus1]

The real impact on Pikachu will come from the changes to other characters. Much like Jigglypuff, I expect an incredible surge in perceived tier placement once he can play his gimp- and off-stage games on more of the cast. That and the continued balancing of the game shall significantly affect the way Pika plays, I expect.

This, pretty much. I don't understand why people are holding out for specific things to be tweaked in a way that directly affects any of Pikachu's offensive or defensive potential. Pikachu has been a solid character since 2.0, and changing him anymore at this point is just silly. I'd be down for a better DA (preferably the same one with faster startup and /slightly/ better KO potential, ala Puff's), but really, that's about it. Oh and +1 for Yellow's hat as an alt costume; would be a great chance to implement female Pika into PM as well.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Pikachu is definitely good, and with all of the previous buffs (particularly to his aerials) I still see him a great contender next version. If I wanted to change anything offensively/defensively, all I'd want for Pika is a slight increase in initial damage to skull bash and less endlag on dash attack, but only just to give a fairer reward for actually using them. And even then I'd save these changes for if Pika for some reason is falling to power creep in 3.5.

What I'm currently wondering is whether people will respect how solid Pika is. Pika's gimp game may get stronger, but I don't think that alone will make him more popular. I feel like people are still hesitant to pick up Pika because of how little range/disjoint he has, and sequentially how little error that allows for proper spacing in neutral. Or maybe it's because his brand of flashiness in QACs is still hard for most people to execute and apply correctly. Here's hoping Pika can school more of the cast and better prove just how solid he is - we as the Pika players will just have to show the rest of the community that Pika's gimp game (and hopefully the rest of him) is to be feared and respected.

Also another +1 to both the Yellow and Gold hats. I've also seen suggestions about more alt skins based on the contest costumes from the upcoming Pokemon games, but I think the full body costumes look too egregious. Maybe just the heads (eg. only the Luchador mask without the shirt and pants?)

 

[MisterNipNips]

He doesn't need buffs. Just fix the up-throw!!!

 

[Psyant]

Yup, fixing up throw will help a ton. When I've been playing Melee for a while I really miss it in PM. With that fix and the overall recovery nerfs I think Pikachu will be in a good place come 3.5.

 

[Paradoxium]

I feel like a few of our attacks could be better

Jab
Pikachu would be better off with a standard 1-2-3 Jab, like normal characters

Dash Attack
This attack should have much, much less recovery; enough so that we'd be able to combo from it

F-Tilt
We should be able to dash cancel this move on hit confirm, which would allow many things

U-Tilt
This attack could use a little bit more range, and a faster overall animation

T-Jolt
Maybe give it a transcendant hitbox

Skullbash
R.I.P.

Quick Attack
It'd be cool if this attack's hitbox knocked the opponent slightly up and in the direction Pikachu performed it, and also caused more hitstun

Thunder
This attack would be a lot more useful if we could run around freely while the lightning bolt was out, so then we could sort of combo into it as it's out

Well I agree with the changes to jab and dash attack, but not with the other changes.

Basically my thought are that if the moves aren't like terrible or bad to begin with, then they souldnt be buffed. If we went and started buffing moves we would end up with a broken character.

His ftilt is a fast poking move, it can gimp or just poke. It doesnt need any buffs but if it were to to buffed it would probably be like range or something. If range is buffed the move keeps its same function while being slightly better.

His utilt is a very good move as is, it definitely does not need anymore buffs.

And making QaC hit you in the direction of Pikachu is probably not a good thing. It would change it up quiet a bit and mess with a lot of his current QaC shenanigans. There is really no point in changing QaC just yet, we should probably wait until Pikachu's meta develops a bit more.

 

[Defile]

He doesn't need buffs. Just fix the up-throw!!!

What's wrong with Pika's up-throw?

 

[Choice Scarf]

The release point is too high.

See the first point here.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Delayed double post, but today's Art Tuesday confirms Pika stole the Pokemon trainer's hat and is now a costume for 3.5. It's pretty dope.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would agree with a few Pikachu buffs. Those were my ideas:

Down-smash: less SDI modifier and more damage on the first hits, less knockback and lowered knockback angle on the last one, less cooldown



Aerial Maximum Horizontal Velocity increased

Would increase nair shield pressure efficiency as well as low airroom combo potential

Lowered knockback angles on fair, bair and nair

The problem with Pikachu is that he has low range and high knockback angles which make comboing extremely hard. This would make it somehow easier. Especially low % combos would profit, landing fair->ground move would also work better

IASA on up-tilt

For combo and versatility reasons. I feel that making it not as bad on shield would increase the amount of combo starters you can get from it

Up-throw fix also makes sense.

Here is the full post:

I'll just post my prefered change list, for everyone interested (or even if no one is interested which is probably the case).

Spoiler

Bowser:
One more hitbox on the end of Bowser's grounded up-B
Side-B different between tilt and full press (tilt: much faster than full press, less endlag, full press: with higher range, knockback and damage)
Faster IASA for Jab 1
Dash speed slightly increased
Captain Falcon:
Smash 64 up-smash
2 frames less landing lag on nair (1 l-cancelled)
Charizard:
move hurtbox on wings (more inwards so not that disjointed)
Diddy Kong:
Remove barrels on up-B
More charging time needed per distance on up-B (just slightly otherwise Diddy can't recover)
Increase distance on instant-release up-B (needed because of above change, otherwise he has problems recovering on low distances)
One frame longer animation/ later IASA on fair, bair and up-air
Bananas on grounded hit only do 7% instead of 8%
Bananas (aerial) do 5% instead of 6%
Donkey Kong:
slightly more distance by dash attack
Run animation starts at frame 17 instead of 18
Aerial Down-B: grab that instantly goes into cargo if it hits
Falco:
Up-B length reverted to NTSC
Reduce SDI modifier on up-throw lasers
Dair landing lag increased by 2 (L-cancelled by 1)
Dair does 2% less and kb reduced on last frames of the hitbox (frames 20-24)
Fox:
Up-Smash animation 4 frames longer, head not including snout not intangible anymore frames 1-7, hit on frame 8 now
Up-B length average between NTSC and PAL
Weight increased by 2
Shield strength increased
Mr. Game&Watch:
Neutral-B landing lag decreased by one frame
Fair landing lag decreased by two, up-air and back-air decreased by one
As new side-b system: Little number instead of the dots indicates which precise number is next (to lower random factor), randomness is now spread like the inner 20% of a Gaussian curve, moves are sorted by usefulness again, other criteria are kept
D-tilt animation/IASA one frame longer
Fair and Up-air one frame earlier IASA
Up-B distance decreased
Ganondorf:
Neutral-B changed to a counter only working on grabboxes, if it worked Ganondorf automatically grabs the opponent
tilt down-B: only around 75% of the distance, jump still resets
Light Armor on down-B
Knockback growth on down-throw increased
Earlier IASA on jab
Ice Climbers:
Autothows with Nana a few frames later
Popo up-b slightly faster
Mixups for Nana AI: She doesn't need to be really smart, but she should do different things
Ike:
Damage and range on Jab one increased, earlier IASA
Earlier IASA for f-tilt
Side-B: Jump out two frames earlier possible
Side-B walljumps give less height than normal walljumps
Up-B window and box for grabbing ledge decreased, horizontal distance slightly increased
Ivysaur:
Down-B tilt/full press mechanic to be able to change distance
Bair base knockback slightly reduced
Jigglypuff:
F-tilt is now a quick mid/low-range (maybe double the jab range( punch with an upwards angle hitbox (also usage for clanking projectiles and linking into up-air)
Neutral-B: If you press shield you make it stop (in around 10-15 frames), also slowing down immediately. Animation ends after you slowed down
Sing has only one hitbox, and ends faster (still you can mashout fast enough to avoid getting rested). After you wake out from a sing all your animations last 1.5x as long for 5 seconds (a bit like Luigi's neutral-b just not as weird).
Down-tilt causes tripping like Squirtle's down-b, increased damage
Increased shield damage on side-b
King Dedede:
Hitbox on up-b as Dedede starts going up
Earlier IASA on f-tilt and jab
Jab comes out earlier
Slightly reduced distance on up-b
Full press: side-b: normal; Tilt: no gordows
Up-tilt base knockback and knockback growth increased
Spot dodge: more active frames, less cooldown (not as extreme as Brawl though)
Kirby:
Increased knockback scaling on down-throw
Crouch's hurtbox goes a bit lower
Increased backtilt horizontal Air Mobility, higher no-dash-jump horizontal maximum velocity
Up-tilt hitbox increased
Down-B knockback increased
Mashing out when inhaled easier
Shield damage on all moves slightly increased
Link:
Boomerang has 1% less damage, distance slightly reduced
Higher jump horizontal lean/tilt initial velocity
Lucario:
Side-B hitbox reaching more downward
Aerial Horizontal Momentum (maximum and tilt/lean initial) slightly increased
Aurasphere release animation slightly sped up
Lucas:
Up-throw knockback growth reduced
Tether range reduced
Duration of neutral-B increased (so its main application is usage after you got a star KO)
Luigi:
F-tilt damage increased
IASA on grounded fireball
IASA on up-tilt and jab 1
Mario:
Fireballs damage reduced to 6%
Increased knockback growth on down-throw
Down-B needs more input for the same height gain
After up-B walljump another up-B isn't possible (air dodge still possible)
Marth:
Press attack+neutral B: Brawl neutral-B
Tipper jab: Higher knockback angle, higher base knockback
IASA on jab
Meta Knight:
Nair landing lag increased by 2 frames (L-cancelled one), startup one frame longer
Increased knockback growth on down-throw
Initial up-B loop height reduced by a little
Mewtwo:
Teleport aerial only if second jump/hover isn't used already
Teleport distance slightly reduced
Slight shadow claw knockback nerf
Up-B induces a window of not being able to grab the ledge again for 38 frames (you can still up-B stall if you delay it, but you will always have at least one frame of being not intangible)
Ness:
Magnet comes out 2 frames faster
Up-B distance slightly reduced
Olimar:
Pikmin evolve faster, side-B damage increased, Pikmin without evolving also a bit stronger, evloved Pikmin slightly weaker
Plucking faster
Neutral-B stall in the air doesn't work anymore, down-B in the air stalls in the way neutral-B did
Knockback and damage on d-tilt increased
Peach:
Dash/run speed increased
Turnip pull slightly faster
Pikachu:
Down-smash: less SDI modifier and more damage on the first hits, less knockback and lowered knockback angle on the last one, less cooldown
Aerial Maximum Horizontal Velocity increased
Lowered knockback angles on fair, bair and nair
IASA on up-tilt
Pit:
Increased knockback growth on down-throw, lowered knockback angle
Side-b cancel criteria are tightened
ROB:
Down-B animation faster
Grounded up-B little hitbox close to the ground
Tilt/Full press to alter side-B distance to go a bit longer/shorter than currently
Roy:
First aerial Side-b upward boost increased (resets on landing as it does now)
Dair landing lag reduced by 2 (L-cancelled 1)
Running animation from frame 16 on (instead of 18)
Samus:
Hold down taunt to start with Ice Beam
Tether range reduced
Zair range slightly reduced
Damage on smash missiles slightly reduced
Sheik:
Poison effect on side-b, different chain options reverted to Melee + grab for an extra distance swing (which leaves you a bit vulnerable afterwards) and down for reduced range and angles but being able to crawl with it. Pressing shield when crawling in side-b will make you go back to normal crouch animation after a ~10 frames animation.
Meteor on the tip of the dair
Needles charge duration slightly increased
Three up-bs to the ledge (shino stalls as example) will trigger to remove invincibility on your next up-b unless you touch the ground inbetween
Snake:
Increase on down-throw knockback growth
Cypher projectile deals less damage
Nair animation sped up
Sonic:
Using aerial side-b forces you to choose between jump or up-b afterwards, both isn't possible
Change SFX/graphics in a way you can react easier to Sonic's moves
Only one aerial neutral-B unless you hit a player, you can choose where to aim though with the control stick
Less startup on dair and up-smash
Squirtle:
Earlier IASA on d-tilt/jab 1
Side-b direction changes easier to control
Hitbox on up-b doesn't reach as far outward
Short hop height decreased
Toon Link:
Bomb pull slightly faster
Bomb's shield damage increased
Zair goes through shields, landing lag increased
Wario:
IASA on Jab 1
Wolf:
Up-B distance slightly reduced (as if there was a NTSC and PAL Wolf and right now its NTSC and its changed to an average of both)
Side-b angle difference between angling up and down increased
Yoshi:
Melee parry mechanics
Zelda:
More damage on the first hit of up-air
Knockback angles and SDI modifiers of neutral-B changed in a way it is possible but hard to get out
Zero Suit Samus:
Up-B Tether range reduced
IASA on Jab 1
Fair works more like Falcon's nair on the tip (bit more range and damage)
In general (mechanics and other stuff):
1-frame momentum delay removed, first-airbourne-frame aerial jump height reduction reverted to Melee
Z tethers can grab the ledge as it is right now if no one is there, if someone is on the edge already they instantly do a slower version of the Forced Tether Jump which takes a route allowing opponents to hit them off if timed precisely. If someone grabs the edge after it is tethered it remains as it is in PM 3.02.
(My tether suggestion isn't optimal yet)
Shieldpoke mechanic is changed (if technically possible) so shieldpokes only happen if the relevant hitbox hits the player with more area than the shield
Crouchcancelling reduces knockback to 0.75x instead of 2/3x if KB*(3/4) is under the ECT of 80 KB units
Animation length on missed tech reverted to Melee
Crouching out of turning animation is instantly cancellable
SFX of powershield relfecting projectiles changed, SFX generally more saturated
Tags don't change their position as much when changing animations (for example dashdancing)
Techrolls slightly shorter in general
...

Put quite a lot of thought into this one, lets see if I'm hoping/guessing right in the end. Inspirations can be taken of course

 

[Cubelarooso]

So it has come to my attention that QAC can be done automatically with tap jump just by holding up. That's probably broken and needs correction.

 

[Defile]

So it has come to my attention that QAC can be done automatically with tap jump just by holding up. That's probably broken and needs correction.

You must be kidding. Tap jump QAC is broken because it's easier than using X or Y to do the same exact thing? By that logic any easier option for performing a technique that's an important part of a character's metagame is also broken...

 

[Cubelarooso]

Kinda, yeah. That's why they fixed Fortress Hogging.

 

[Paradoxium]

Kinda, yeah. That's why they fixed Fortress Hogging.

Actually they made the QaC window bigger in one of the updates, so it is easier to use than it was in 2.1.

They prolly wont change it because in brawl the majority of players used tap jump to QaC anyways.

 

[Defile]

Kinda, yeah. That's why they fixed Fortress Hogging.

Pikachu can get hit during QA; it has low priority and does little damage. And once a certain direction has been chosen, Pikachu goes in a very punishable straight line until the end of the QA. There's a high degree of risk in QAC-ing all over the place and a good opponent can predict where you will go. Something that's punishable and risky can't seriously be considered broken.

 

[Vlade]

You must be kidding. Tap jump QAC is broken because it's easier than using X or Y to do the same exact thing? By that logic any easier option for performing a technique that's an important part of a character's metagame is also broken...

Yep, c-stick is broken and should be banned guys

Anyway I'm actually happy with how pika is at the moment, I think he is one of the most balanced characters in this version. Would be nice if his uthrow got fixed though.

 

[Comet7]

So it has come to my attention that QAC can be done automatically with tap jump just by holding up. That's probably broken and needs correction.

adding on to what the others said, this is just a matter of opinion. i think the best actual way to do it would probably be with x/y so it's easier to wavedash out of it.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I've had more success just using shield/direction and skipping the jump altogether for waveland QACs

 

[Matthew]

I think that it would be cool if they implemented a way to quick attack twice upwards in the same direction just like in melee. I know it can be done in n64, melee, and smash 4 3ds but as far as I know, it cannot be done in PM.

 

[Soft Serve]

Pika is going to be so good in 3.5
If Pika does get hit recovery wise, It wont be any more than side-b grabbing the ledge.

as mentioned above, the up-throw release point should be fixed, but honestly pika doesn't need any buffs other than that.
I've always enjoyed playing Pika but so many MU's are just painful to play. They should all get a lot better in 3.5, with both our punish game getting better because of nerfed recoveries, and our neutral game getting stronger from nerfed projectiles/ nerfed TP>float>nairs.
Being able to kill offf the top is also super important in a game that will still have tons of heavy floaties and good recoveries.
Totally picking up pika as a secondary.

 

[Paradoxium]

Amen, that's the type of stuff I wanna hear

Funny how the people in the tier list thread theory craft about how Pikachu is bad and low tier and whatnot, but the people who actually play the game and play the character know how good he really is. Pikachu is a mad sleeper in this current version, and in the next version he is gonna be putting in MAD work.

 

[Matthew]

Amen, that's the type of stuff I wanna hear

Funny how the people in the tier list thread theory craft about how Pikachu is bad and low tier and whatnot, but the people who actually play the game and play the character know how good he really is. Pikachu is a mad sleeper in this current version, and in the next version he is gonna be putting in MAD work.

I agree with you. Pikachu has sooo much untapped potential just because he is so fast and especially because of the fact that he can basically quick attack cancel into anything. This gives him soo many combo, tech chase, and approach options. You can even quick attack along the ground right over banana peels so I feel like Pikachu could be a good counter for Diddy. I am trying to pick up Pikachu as a third character behind my Bowser and Olimar.

 

[Choice Scarf]

New blog post here. Basically it's about toning down the cast from having "excessive tools" to use. Balance changes are planned for the entire cast using these design criteria:

-Revising moves with static knockback curves and making them scale more with percentage. This is intended to create a much more dynamic combo game that requires knowledge of percentages, fall speed/weight, stage positioning etc. and allows a player to develop with more time, knowledge and experience of the game.
-Balancing cooldowns with power/start-up/duration/utility.
-Tools that mitigate positional advantage (e.g. circumventing juggles, edge guards).
-Tools that provide excessive burst movement without appropriate risk.
-Moves that hit at unintuitive angles.
-Moves with SDI/hit-lag multipliers on them that circumvent the strength of Directional Influence (barring grounded multi-hit moves).
-Recovery potency.

So I don't know about you guys but I always felt Pika had just enough options to work with, maybe less because of the whole "so much effort for so little appreciable success" thing. What would be considered excessive on Pika right now? What does Pika look to gain or lose considering what the PMDT seems to be aiming for?

I'll start off guessing that F-air may get tweaked since it's a low endlag multi-hit non-grounded move with little knockback growth on the first hits. Though you can argue the damage is low and the user risks getting shield grabbed so I have no idea.

 

[Psyant]

I personally feel Pikachu won't be changed much because he's a character with relatively little outright jank where most of his moveset requires a good deal of practice and thought to use. He doesn't really have lots of abusable simple things that play the game for you, which is what they're looking to get rid of. For example, if we look at tools that give "excessive burst movement", Quick Attack Cancelling has notable risk, high difficulty of use and large practice time investment compared to things like Squirtle's Side B.

Basically they're cutting back on brainless jank and imo Pikachu doesn't have much of that.

 

[Matthew]

I agree with Psyant. Quick attack cancelling does require practice and can easily be punished if you are not on point. Countless times have quick attacked right along a platform and slipped off the edge of the stage in the helpless animation. Quick attack cancelling also basically has no priority so if you carelessly make your approaches with it predictable, you can easily be intercepted by basically any attack.

And there are the other moves like squirtle's side b like Psyant mentioned that are like a "no brainer move." By that I am not insulting those who use it, but I am just stating that the move is such a safe approach option that it is often abused and considered difficult to deal with or punished. But that does not mean that those who do abuse it are doing anything wrong, in fact, they are doing the smart thing because they are using a safe approach option that has been granted to that specific character. Basically what I am saying is that we should not complain about the player using the move, but we rather should complain about the move itself. These moves that we find it hard to deal with are those "excessive burst" moves, and the PMDT are gonna tone them down.

In conclusion quick attack cancelling is a technique that can be a good approach option if you have developed the skill to control it and use it safely. Therefore this move does not necessarily need to be toned down, at least not yet, because it involves and understanding of technical skill in order to turn it into a safe approach, combo, ect. option. On the other hand, moves like squirtle's side b can be picked up and used almost immediately as a safe approach, and part of the purpose of being good at PM is having an understanding of technical skill, and by providing moves like squirtle's side b, it is kind if taking away from one of the main purposes of the game.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Okay, so QAC then. Some may argue that the movement and recovery options because of it may seem excessive, but that's the whole point of Pikachu and it's all still susceptible to the opponent anticipating and throwing out active frames. You also always risk missing the cancel and getting punished, so yeah, it's probably fine.

Pika's other moves may be alright as they are too. I mentioned Fair only because it sounded like it met a lot of the design criteria, especially since it can set up into a lot of good stuff, but it still has risk and isn't brainless so if anything it may just be tweaked to be SDI'ing out of if it even changes. Maybe Uair juggling can be brainless sometimes, but it lacks the hitstun to prevent opponent's from double jumping out of it, so that's probably fine too. Oh, and dash attack is brainless too, just in the sense that you'd be brainless to consider it an option (balance cooldown maybe? )

And the other points, well, I guess Dair hits at a pretty unintuitive angle, but if it made sense it would meteor and that's more than likely OP.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I agree changing Fair to Melee or something would fit with the stated goals, and it wouldn't really hurt my Pika that much. It may even make it better, as it might encourage me to use Nair more, which is a better choice already.
If my research is correct, the only other changes to Pikachu's basic normals that warrant evaluation are earlier IASA on Jab & Dair (which I could imagine being reverted), and late Ftilt actually being weaker (not sure if that's a mistake or not). Stuff like Bair, Uair damage, and Dair landing hit seem safe enough.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced QA should have Melee landing if not cancelled. This is solely going by feel (might just be animation differences), but I'm almost certain in PM it's less laggy than Melee when you QA into the ground, plus it feel like I don't get the full, laggiest landing-type as much.
Another thing that occurred to me as a fair way to tone down QAC would be if you could only C by jumping. This would make more powerful techniques (like QA into waveland or QA into Special) more technically demanding, and others (like QA into low aerial or QA'ing into a platform then just falling through) impossible.

 

[Comet7]

Another thing that occurred to me as a fair way to tone down QAC would be if you could only C by jumping. This would make more powerful techniques (like QA into waveland or QA into Special) more technically demanding, and others (like QA into low aerial or QA'ing into a platform then just falling through) impossible.

do you mean only tap jump or x/y? for tap jump, that's actually what i do and it's not that hard. even wavedashing with only the analogue stick isn't too hard. for x/y that's even easier than tap jump for about everything. also making it so that QA can't go through platforms isn't a good thing, since it just removes some variety from the game and isn't OP at all.

there's also the fact that fox requires more tech skill than pika would even with this restriction so the extra effort for tech skill doesn't mean much.

 

[Choice Scarf]

And I like QAC pratfall, that's so fun on Battlefield. Please no take away

Edit: Forget that for a second. New blogpost has stuff about system changes, but the biggest thing is a universal 2-frame window for DACUS on all characters. Pikachu has a DACUS now.

Someone hold me.

 

[Comet7]

i wonder if pikachu would get any use out of a bdacus...

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'm just saying, I'd rather give up QA platform drop than, say, only be able to QAC if initiated from the ground.