3.5 Pika Discussion Time!

[Comet7]

well, i was already leaning against falco and maybe sheik, and then this happens... well, this probably cements pikachu as being a secondary at most to me. sorry guys, but QAC was my second favorite thing about pika, the other being his taunts... at least i still have pichu in melee.

 

[standardtoaster]

the electric on throws is completely aesthetic

 

[sheNanagans]

the electric on throws is completely aesthetic

ah thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Cubelarooso]

@Juushichi
Thanks for the reply. I agree with the reduction in burst movement's effectiveness as a design goal for 3.5. That was certainly one of the major issues of 3.02, even on some of the mid or low tier characters.
However, I feel that the decisions made for QAC were without a complete understanding their implications. The impression given is that they were made without first-hand insight into how Pikachu plays, why he is played, what QAC is/can do, how it fits into his game, and how it can be stopped. Rather, it seems as if QAC were only analyzed in the broadest terms, with reference to its intelligent use by top-level players against those unfamiliar with it, and to its abilities in an unrushed, unthreatened laboratory setting.
Consequently, the change made appears to be a good-faith attempt at compromise, yet which has inadvertently eliminated QAC's relevance - along with it a pivotal component of the character - rather than simply weakening it.


I've done some work to elucidate Quick Attack as a move. There may be some fencepost errors on the frame data, and I estimated the distances, but it should be fairly accurate.
(BTW, thank you sooo much to the DT for Debug Mode. This completely redefines the way I play.)

Zip 1:
Direction read on frame 12. This is when Pikachu must decide where to go, and if he shall sacrifice total distance for a potential 1st-zip QAC.
Hitbox active on frame 13.
Movement begins on frame 14.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls at frame 18. At this point, Pikachu has traveled a maximum of 6.5 of the Training Stage's units horizontally, assuming he QA'ed perfectly horizontal, which rules out QAC for this zip. The max that still allows QAC is 6 units, but Pikachu drifts 1 unit during the QAC window, so any actual QAC occurs between 5 and 6 units.
QAC window is frames 20-24. If Pikachu zipped into the ground, now is when he must decide if he shall cancel, with what, and execute it.
If Pikachu neither QAC's nor zips again, his first actionable frame is 56 if he zipped into the ground, or 61 if he zipped horizontally.
Zip 2:
Direction read on frame 26. This is when Pikachu must decide if he shall do the 2nd zip and where to go. If he does the 2nd zip, this is also when the hitbox activates. The 2nd zip must differ from the first by at least 38°.
Movement begins frame 27.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls frame 31. The max horizontal distance for this zip is 6 units, and between both zips is 10.5 units.
I believe the QAC window for the 2nd zip would be frames 33-36.
With no QAC, Pikachu's first actionable frame is 70, regardless of angle.

QA must travel into the ground during a zip's movement, and end over that ground, in order to be cancelled at the end of that zip.
QA can be cancelled into any aerial option. This comprises double jump, airdodge (hence waveland), nearly-grounded specials or aerials (Fair has no hitbox but autocancels, Dair goes straight to landing hitbox), and of course double-jump.
But remember, these are Pikachu's options, not some Ike careening toward you with a screen-wide Fair of certain death, but a disjointless lightweight renowned for low damage output and expected to be bouncing every which way regardless.
Double jumping out of QA provides Pikachu with a peak height at frame 25 of 3.5 units, with a maximum of 2.5 units horizontally. From here, Pikachu can land on frame 55 for 4.5 units distance, or fastfall to land frame 43 with 3.5 units.

Don't let the word "hitbox" fool you, this isn't Sonic we're talking about.
[collapse=Observe, its disjoint]

[/collapse]
The 1st zip deal 3%, has 4 frames of hitlag (which stops Pikachu as well, giving the opponent more time to react, plus messes with the timing), 7 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 3, 13, and 21 frames hitstun against a 0% Bowser, 100% Marth, and 200% Jigglypuff, respectively.
The 2nd zip deal 2%, has 3 frames of hitlag, 6 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 1, 10, and 18 frames hitstun.
Honestly, the hit more often seems troublesome then helpful when QAC'ing, as it frees the opponent from any lag they may be experiencing.

QA gives no invincibility.

For comparison, it takes Captain Falcon 45 frames to run 10.5 units. The first 15 frames (over 3 units) are his initial dash and can be cancelled into a dash the other way or turned into a moonwalk, and after that he can cancel with crouch (into any action out of idle, including dash dance forward then back again) or RAR. At any point throughout he can short hop (or full hop if the opponent jumps) into a Knee, Stomp, his long-range Nair or Uair, crossup Bair, or keep it empty and quickly land, or retreat with his double jump, or edge cancel a Falcon Kick if available. Or he can Raptor Boost, wavedash, use a real dash attack, DACUS, or shield which can go into roll forward, roll backwards, sidestep, or grab. Note that Pikachu is one of the few characters with a grab comparable to Falcon's.
[collapse=We're Back!]

[/collapse]
At any point, as soon as he wants. Most characters can, actually.
Pikachu can run 10.5 units in 53 frames, with a 13 frame, 2.5 unit initial dash.


There are some places QAC could be trimmed. Make failing a QAC be as laggy as QA horizontal, or especially making it so that Pikachu loses his double jump if hit out of QA at any point before officially touching the ground. Those make sense to me.
I think that just making it so that QAC was lost by going into tumble would have been the perfect change, especially if Pikachu had to actually land to get it back, so he couldn't just sweetspot the ledge then QAC onstage. Straight-up once per airtime, or adding a cool down, would be too restrictive, precluding consecutive QAC's, which I've seen Anther use for shield pressure, and which I personally just loved doing between stocks.
But for an even more conservative version that lets QAC remain pertinent and preserves everything that's great about it, while cutting out anything that could be regarded as not-so-great, consider if also QAC only allowed double jump. In this scenario, the strongest options of low aerial/special would be impossible, while the now-strongest option of wavelanding would be more technically demanding, with a greater opportunity for a wider range of errors, and anything but perfection would be slower, allowing a greater opportunity for the opponent to punish in a way which eliminates Pikachu's double jump and QAC.


Zipping about the stage has become a staple of PM Pikachu. How would Luigis react if he couldn't slide about the stage? Or Jiggses if she couldn't drift about the stage? It would continue to not be a problem if it were even more dangerous.
Pikachu needs ways to close space. His range is his body, if he can't get in then he can't do anything. And as I hope I have illustrated, QAC is really not too foreign of a space-closer.
If we're talking about when Pikachu's on defense, QAC was too good, hence my obsession with the tumble thing. But if we're talking about in neutral, I can't say agree. QAC could really only provide a good position if the opponent let it. Pikachu is completely vulnerable throughout QA, it can be stopped by the same things as everything else Pikachu has (a wide sweeping hitbox, or a jab), and usage requires telegraphing your intentions by moving into a position where it's possible. Not only that, but QAC was a risk/reward thing (that could simply have more risk, if the reward is still deemed to great, by way of guaranteed loss of DJ and QAC), where your options were either try to charge right through your opponent, or pass through an even more compromising position, and setting up for these were usually mutually exclusive actions. (Not to mention the risk of failing the execution) The only excuses for letting Pika by were being outplayed, or not knowing the matchup (which should not take more than a few matches for good players. And learning new matchups is one of PM's most evident, enjoyable draws - I know I felt fantastic when I started knowing when G&W had no jump).


From my point of view, despite the DT's intentions, the current version sacrifices depth and entertainment (for all parties, honestly) in order to make Pikachu a neverused lower-mid tier rather than underused upper-mid tier. I don't think that's worth it, especially when there are great other options .



@ Choice Scarf
It's not so much that Pikachu has Smash and Tilt QA's, but that the distance it travels has a small range of analog control. Holding the stick at full tilt yields the same distance as Smashing, and the exact degree of tilt is read along with the direction, not at the start. It was like this in 3.02, and I believe Melee as well (although I'm unable to check right now).
Also, ninja'd by toaster, but the electric throws are just aesthetic things that match Melee. Throws don't have hitlag, anyway, so it can't make a difference.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Cubelarooso4prez

But really... amazing post. I'm speechless. That is going straight to my combined post of quotes.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Excellent stuff Cube! It's amazing what debug mode can accomplish.

I'd like to add that another weakness of QAC is stage selection. Since Pika always has to touch the ground for the technique to work, QAC becomes less effective for stages with less surface area (such as lower platform stages), or more controlled area like the singular plane of FD. WarioWare ifor example would be a good counterpick since the player's options for QACing recovery where all relatively close together, which characters with large range could cover easily.

Also @ Cubelarooso thanks for the clear up on the tilt thing. This means if I smash input the upB but then direct it with a light tilt horizontally it will go a minimal distance instead of a maximum, correct?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Exactly.​

 

[Psyant]

I feel like in reference to the cast, this is the strongest version of the character that there has been to date for Pika.

In PM or Smash in general? Cause honestly, even excluding 64, I feel Brawl Pika and Smash 4 Pika are better characters in comparison to the rest of the cast of their respective games. In PM terms, I'm not convinced we weren't better off in 3.0 even despite the nerfs to other characters in this build.

I've gotten over the QAC nerf already, but like others I share concerns there's nothing to really draw people into playing Pikachu anymore. On top of his technical requirements you have to deal with not having simple quality of life things like a usable dash attack or grab range. Not everyone can be Axe and personally I don't feel there is any reason for any players serious about contending to bother putting themselves through Pikachu's crappy effort/reward ratio. Even now after months and months of playing Pikachu I often do better with secondaries I rarely play. With QAC he at least made up for it in fun and had a unique pull. I know I for one would just swap to Meta Knight or something if I didn't have an attachment to the character.

@Juushichi
From my point of view, despite the DT's intentions, the current version sacrifices depth and entertainment (for all parties, honestly) in order to make Pikachu a neverused lower-mid tier rather than underused upper-mid tier.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Edit: Also, can we get some feedback on what the hell is going on with Pikachu's up throw in PM? Cause if it's supposed to be identical to Melee up throw, I'm pretty sure it's not.

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu's recovery is already quite good in Melee, which is closer to what we're trying to shoot for as far as overall recovering than what characters were capable of in 3.02. Being able to QAC onto the stage while recovering made his recovery even more difficult to edgeguard, which we felt was too much on top of his already versatile upB. (Same goes for sideB grabbing the ledge.)

If you're asking why nothing else with the character is changed, we're fairly comfortable with the spot Pikachu is at overall. He already has some other improvements over his Melee version (namely 64 bair and more range/disjoint on fair), and Pikachu is even doing fairly well in Melee via Axe's performances. With the many nerfs to other characters, Pikachu should be in a fairly good place as far as balance goes.

tbf whatever someone said about toning down burst movement and ect was more or less what we wanted to shoot for. it's why things like why MK no longer has his 3.02 dair or goes into special fall out of down b, part of the reason why just about all stats on GnW DACUS/Up Smash got nerfed, why Wolf has more endlag on Dash attack, Ike got the nerfs he did to QD (not enough imo), why Mewtwo is the way he is, why Sonic is the way he is and more.

I understand that people are disappointed and are asking "why when this isn't even ___?", but changes generally happen holistically. There was certainly a fear that Pika's ability to zip around the stage, circumvent positional advantage, close space and more would be too strong of an option for this version with everything done to other characters. As a dev we have to think about these things when abused to their potential. Anther certainly brought the most nuanced and maybe practical application of the technique in the earlier version, but the amount of flexibility that it brought was too much in our opinion.

I know Pika players are tired of hearing the whole song and dance about how strong his gimp options and more are, but that is a strength of the character. Some or most of his worst matchups have been nerfed in a significant way (Mario not being able to 0TD Pika with d-throw is certainly one + fireball changes), recoveries accross the board have been nerfed. These are some of the things that go into the conversation.

I think it's unfortunate that players feel like they lost a lot of flavor and individuality in Pikachu and are dropping him. I feel like in reference to the cast, this is the strongest version of the character that there has been to date for Pika.

Hearing this and other explanations hasn't alleviated anything, its only made me question the strong support I provide to this game at all especially offline. Taking a lot to not trash on this build to friends, in SoCal, and where I currently live as people are already upset, so please dont identify me as some hater hell bent on making PM look like garbage at least I restrict all of my distaste to two threads.

Strongest iteration in reference to the cast? lmao! I just had a long session of 3.5 tonight, and I can confidently say Im dropping this character hard. My friend, who is also a strong competent pikachu main, has also dropped him. ESAM has dropped him, TKBreezy has dropped him, and I wouldnt be surprised if Axe just uses falco now. And theyre all completely right to do so. Recoveries are still way too good in this game for pikachu to have had any meaningful improvement with these mechanics, and you want to call this his strength? rofl

What gets me is that plenty of outstanding and intelligent pikachu mains have used QAC for six years and theyre now believing that it has some unlocked potential that's unfair? You make it sound as if Anther wasn't already an expert at this when it was added to PM and its potential already near its peak. Sounds like some BS to me. Fast movement, including burst movement, is pikachu's shtick along with his strong offstage game. It's a quality he has in every smash game and makes pikachu a fun character to play. Both you and Sethlon need to stop pretending like you know what this character is supposed to be. Pikachu more then anyone else deserves burst movement. I find it more hilarious that you guys felt the need to take this out but leave in shine-like attacks, kill throws, and throws > kill moves which are actually unfair and too good and granted to a handful of characters.

Just as bad was the laggy landing they gave back to quick attack. Sethlon doesnt know **** about pikachu in melee, his recovery was massively overrated by people who didnt know what they were doing (all you needed to do was grab the ledge and then punish him however you like) and his recovery is once again equally overrated. What gets me is they returned stupid melee qualities of needing to be just above the ground for lower lag as if this tests any sort of skill, or as if the lag in 64 or Brawl prevented pikachu from being punished in reasonable ways.

I honestly wouldnt have minded some nerfs to QAC, but the idea that a single burst provides any sort of meaningful compromise would be hilarious if it werent tragic, and to me only further displays the incompetence of the PMDT. Sounded like a 10 year old came up with it when lunchables said it and gave the PMDT too much credit to think they wouldnt take such an idea seriously. And it's still on pikachu's bio on the website as if this is anything glamorous. Its gimmicky and ugly as hell now that it only has one burst and would be better off removed completely then to exist as the badly designed move it now is, at least then people could take an honest look at how bad pikachu is and give him appropriate changes.

Hope the PMDT + friends had a good laugh when I brought all this up the first two times, once again Im right about everything stated this time I didnt even need to touch the game once to figure it out.

 

[Anther]

Tagxy <3.

I change my mind, single burst qac is possibly broken too.

 

[Tagxy]

Hope youre right thr, Im messing around with it too. I did one cool thing with it today though. Wish we could play to figure things out like before, I have another friend who uses pika locally Im trying to lab it with.

 

[Kaysick]

Edit: Also, can we get some feedback on what the hell is going on with Pikachu's up throw in PM? Cause if it's supposed to be identical to Melee up throw, I'm pretty sure it's not.

Not sure if they're trying to replicate it from Melee but since there was a global fix on grab release points, up throw most definitely can CG fast fallers. Using another controller for DI (since CPUs are unreliable), I was able to CG Fox, Falcon, Falco, and Wolf. Spacies are 0-death, obviously depending on how far they go on stage because of DI, etc etc. Falcon was around 40%'s.

Even though there's some gripe about QAC not being as great anymore, 3.5 revived my love for Pika and I'm going to start playing him more. Thinking about Shiek as a secondary; Samus just isn't as great anymore imo. She got up smash nerfs because her SDI multipliers are 1.0x now instead of 0.61x. It was like my bread and butter becaues of 3.02. Also her tether nerfs (even though every tether got nerfed) really push me away from liking her.

 

[Anther]

Hope youre right thr, Im messing around with it too. I did one cool thing with it today though. Wish we could play to figure things out like before, I have another friend who uses pika locally Im trying to lab it with.

Do you have netplay yet!?
http://www.smashladder.com/netplay/HighVoltageClan2 We're starting a new pika group ;3.

I do agree with you on the the landing lag, especially on the first part of quick attack is super high. I can do it relatively consistently but I still think it's yet another needless skill barrier for new or even less technically inclined pikachu players. And skullbash RIP ;.;.

I think the biggest thing I'm finding is that the QA1 is probably a way better tool out of neutral than how we've previously been using QA2 generally .. lol. Just never would've found this out without being forced to use it.

 

[Deleted member]

and to me only further displays the incompetence of the PMDT. Sounded like a 10 year old came up with it when lunchables said it and gave the PMDT too much credit to think they wouldnt take such an idea seriously.

Jeez, I get you're salty about your character nerfs and everything but get off my ****.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Squid Squad]

i wasn't bothered by the QAC nerf at all, but i agree 100% with cubelarooso that losing QAC on going into tumble is a better and more reasonable adjustment from 3.02

that said i think the worst nerf to pika this update was making the wizard hat purple. aint even a good shade. trucker hat pika will tide me over in the meantime but i expect this to be redressed ˙͜ʟ˙ ˙͜ʟ˙ ˙͜ʟ˙

Don't be disrespecting the purple party hat. Though having the blue one as an option would be nice.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I like the purple as a concept, but it could be better if it was a richer hue. Never mind, I actually like the color after looking at it again. I'm still going to use it, the party time don't stop for no one.

Going through the other character threads, apparently the release point issue was in fact fixed, so I'm assuming u-throw is actually fine now. At this point even if it's false I'm fine believing the placebo until I'm corrected

 

[Psyant]

I can't tell what's going on with uthrow honestly, but it seems to be able to chaingrab spacies relatively well. I had someone try to DI out of the chaingrab with Fox and they had no success until higher %s. Falcon seems to be able to get out of it much earlier than in Melee though. I don't think it's like Melee but it seems to be fairly reliable? Need more time using it to be sure of anything.

 

[robosteven]

oh hey guys, just thinking about picking up Pikachu for 3.5 and I wanted to see how he

*sees thread*

oh

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu's new upthrow is nasty, against super fast fallers it will always combo into upsmash, against other characters it is still close enough to get a tail spike. Pikachu has a monster grab game, why didn't they buff his grab range i think that is a buff he needed

 

[robosteven]

because then he'd be Mario

(I don't actually know the reason)

 

[Choice Scarf]

Excellent grab options and piss grab range sounds pretty balanced to me.

The grab range is just Pika being bad with range in general. Call it an inherent character weakness. I can see how buffing it slightly could be something hard to figure out.

Also, real rap PMDT, Pika's victory screen still shows the blue party hat CSP. I don't know if that's just me, but I haven't toyed with the costumes at all. Make up mind plskthnx

 

[Deleted member]

Pikas uthrow is just the result of the SCD bug being fixed lol. It's not really new, iirc its just melee uthrow but finally fixed

 

[Kaysick]

Well I can confirm that the Pit vs Pika MU is 50/50. You just have to mixup your DI against his throws and try to be grounded unless you trade his uairs with dair. I'm liking Pika a lot this update even though I'm getting used to the QAC.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikas uthrow is just the result of the SCD bug being fixed lol. It's not really new, iirc its just melee uthrow but finally fixed

To us it's new because we've been using the the 3.0 up throw for like a year. Its like a breathe of fresh air now.

 

[Kaysick]

How do you guys practice your Pika when playing solo or against CPU's? Just curious since I'm dropping Samus for Pika/Sheik. Want to make sure I'm doing stuff that's beneficial for me. Also when are some times to do QAC against someone and what move should I do out of it? I've mainly been doing QAC > dair and it's been helping.

 

[Psyant]

Excellent grab options and piss grab range sounds pretty balanced to me.

DK would like a word with you, lol.

Pikas uthrow is just the result of the SCD bug being fixed lol. It's not really new, iirc its just melee uthrow but finally fixed

It's not exactly the same. In Melee it chaingrabs Fox starting at 15%ish and lasts until he can be killed with an usmash or aerial. If you try to CG him below 15 he can tech off the floor. In PM it chaingrabs him starting at 0%, but only lasts until just over 50% at which point he can jump out. It looks similar and works the same way, but the knockback/hitstun/whatever must be different. It's still good though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm fairly certain its meant to be melee U throw. Can someone who is actual pmdt correct this?

 

[Choice Scarf]

How do you guys practice your Pika when playing solo or against CPU's? Just curious since I'm dropping Samus for Pika/Sheik. Want to make sure I'm doing stuff that's beneficial for me. Also when are some times to do QAC against someone and what move should I do out of it? I've mainly been doing QAC > dair and it's been helping.

Solo stuff? QA angles, edge cancels, chaingrabs on the fastfallers, and the whole b-reverse family on jolt. Also, b-reverse thunder, though I'm pretty crap at it.

I think in 3.5 since QAC is riskier it may be safest during horizontal stagger chases (i.e. out of f-throw) or as an occasional mix-up for a SHFFL approach if you're close enough. All of the QAC aerials are useful, though it''s dependent on where you land and I'm not sure about the frame (dis)advantages on shield are. Wavedashing forward or back out of QAC can also set up for other things, like a pseudo Tomahawk where you QAC -> waveland -> grab. I feel like the most practical fake-outs are restricted to QAC'ing in place, and maybe directing away from the opponent can work as a bait (need to figure this out more).

Oh, and you can L-cancel the QAC'd aerials. Haven't really applied those yet since I'm not consistent with that yet.

 

[Deleted member]

So, I've noticed another dumb change the PMDT made to QA in 3.5.

The timing for using Pikachu's forward-air out of a QAC into the ground is very, very small - significantly smaller than the amount of time given to input any other aerial. Additionally, Pikachu hits the ground so quickly after QAC-ing into the ground that even if a forward air is successfully inputted, the move does not have enough time to get to the part of its animation when enough hitboxes come out that make it possible for a combo into up-smash or grab after doing an L-Cancel. I was able to consistently do this combo in 3.02, and now I can't. I doubt it's me getting the timing wrong, because I can still consistently use any other aerial attack out of a QAC into the ground without any problems. This needs to be fixed. It's kind of annoying how this was never noticed by anyone on the PMDT while making 3.5. But hey, it's not like anyone on the PMDT actually knows anything about Pikachu.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I agree with Tagxy.

The QAC nerf is stupid.

 

[Choice Scarf]

If anyone had not seen this already, the AZ scene decided it would be funny to show Axe's reaction to the QAC nerf.

Someone posts this on reddit and suddenly everybody's in an uproar about QAC (and I mean both sides of the nerf argument). But seeing as how Axe goes on to single zip QAC from one side of the stage to the other, you get the feeling that the "excessive burst movement" wasn't even corrected. I don't even know what my opinions are anymore.

But I'm sick of all of this complaining solely focused on QAC. The general community, the PMDT, and use as players need to understand that quick attack isn't the only move in Pika's moveset. Let's just stop complaining about it for a while and come back to it once we figure out all of the creative things we can do with single zip QAC.

So, shall we figure out how to 3.5? What characters are easier to edgeguard now? I feel like Ivy is an interesting case since her tether pull-up is still pretty fast, but her profile seems large enough that maybe dair can work as a punish for the tether ledge jump's greater endlag. I also heard Olimar's tether no longer has a hitbox, which is great for a ledge happy char like Pika.

 

[robosteven]

I also heard Olimar's tether no longer has a hitbox, which is great for a ledge happy char like Pika.

Can confirm, Olimar is free now if you get him offstage, and with the removal of element-resistant Pikmin the matchup is really hard onstage too IMO.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Last time I remember, Olimar was a bad MU for Pika, though I never played one so I don't really know why. Wonder if that's still true, since he got changed so much

 

[robosteven]

Last time I remember, Olimar was a bad MU for Pika, though I never played one so I don't really know why. Wonder if that's still true, since he got changed so much

I don't think I'm really a fair representation of a good Olimar, but I remember getting bodied by a really good Pikachu a while ago. It's not easy for him to get past him if Pikachu's zipping all over the place, and as long as he's not above Olimar he's pretty much safe.

Gonna have to try this MU more though.

 

[Psyant]

Olimar was pretty bad for Pika in Brawl, but Olimar was comparatively much more powerful in that game. From what I understand Olimar's big disjoints are just a nightmare for Pikachu to beat out. It's like running head first into a brick wall (constructed of Pikmin). Even in the air Pikachu has to be wary of trying to outhit Olimar in a trade. Yellow Pikmin are also really annoying because they're immune to all electric element attacks, which is a good part of Pikachu's moveset. This doesn't sound like a big deal but trust me, in practice it's annoying when that Pikmin thrown in your face completely ignores your forward air like it doesn't exist. Well, that's just my basic sum up from playing against Olimar in Brawl and PM some anyway. I'm not the most knowledgeable on that MU.

I do think Olimar is a character naturally suited to beating Pikachu, but honestly with the state he's in in PM it's not that big a deal. Pikachu is lucky that his natural predators, characters like Ice Climbers and Olimar, are really rare and in PM not at the top of their game.

 

[robosteven]

Yellow Pikmin are also really annoying because they're immune to all electric element attacks, which is a good part of Pikachu's moveset.\

They took elemental resistance of Pikmin out.

...which IMO is a fantastic thing.

 

[Psyant]

They took elemental resistance of Pikmin out.

...which IMO is a fantastic thing.

Wow, you're right! Just checked the 3.5 notes and they snuck it in near the bottom of Olimar's notes. I haven't played an Olimar player since 3.5 as they're so damn rare. Well, that makes things a bit easier for us against him. Cool.

 

[robosteven]

I would play any of you if I was in the area. I need more Pikachu experience in general, let alone as Olimar.

...and I mean I would like to learn how to play the character better without abusing QAC because I can't do it consistently soooooo

hey guys how do I pikachu lol

 

[Choice Scarf]

Practice good buddy. I always say work on your QA angles first. That's a huge portion of SDs when you aim somewhere and end up somewhere else.

Okay, massive lab session done, Prepare for tons of text:

So I finally had time to try to figure out why the QAC Fair thing not working and ended up exploring as much frame data about QA as possible. There goes trying to avoid QAC for a while, but screw it. But seriously shoutouts to debug mode being the greatest thing ever, thank you based Magus.

So normal aerials become active on the following frames.

• Nair comes out on frame 3
  
• Uair also comes out on frame 3
• Bair comes out on frame 8
• Fair comes out on frame 10
  
• Dair comes out on frame 14, but has grounded hitboxes on landing (normally active on the frame you hit the ground)

QAC aerials are really grounded aerials, where the landing animation cuts into the active hitboxes of the move. ELI5 Pika starts to land before the attack finishes. I'll put my whole process here because I also learned all of the frames of QA (which may be helpful for other discussions):

1. Pause in Debug, hold up and advance frames with Z while simultaneously holding B. I recommend turning tap up off and just holding the control stick up to make things easier.
2. Input direction straight down on frame 13 (this is the frame the direction is decided and when the active hitbox first appears). For reference Pika says a soft "Pi" sound on frame 11, and the QA zip sound is on frame 12. So hold the direction on frame 12 before advancing to frame 13.
   
3. From standing position, Pika is directed downwards for one from (Frame 13), assumes a horizontal "free fall position for 4 frames (14-17) and then Pika's body begins to squish. The QAC input window is four frames (Frames 20-24), so input your aerial then. On frame 25 and after it does the Quick Attack landing lag thing. I also think inputting it too early prevents it from happening too, will try to confirm this in the future

Anyway, all aerials will proceed to go for up to 8 frames before landing animation takes over. An important point is that if you fast fall during this, then Pika will hit the ground faster and shorten the active aerial frames. I can't really tell if pressing down on the control stick before the QAC input does anything (another thing to confirm), but the point is if you fast fall them then the aerial will be even shorter.

So going through all of the aerials:

• QAC Nair, which usually lasts beyond this 8 frame limit, is a good move to test the concept. It starts on frame 3, so QAC Nair lasts up to 6 frames. For reference the hitboxes cover Pika almost 360 degrees starting and ending at the nadir of Pika's body, rotating to cover behind you first, then above, then in front.
  
• QAC Uair's active hitboxes are already from 3-8, so the fact that the entirety of the active frames is allowed is quite the coincidence. You only shorten its range if you fast fall and end the move during the tail swing.
  
• QAC Bair is only active on the last frame, It has its biggest range on frame 9, which is one frame too late. So don't fast fall this when you don't want what happens with Fair:
  
• QAC Fair, because its active frames start on Frame 10, will only do the start up animation before the landing animation begins. So the active frames never come out, which is why this aerial appeared to not work correctly.
  
• QAC Dair is the odd one out. Since the hitboxes themselves are generated upon landing, QAC Dair's normal aerial hitboxes never come out, and instead the ground hitboxes come out on "Frame 9" of the aerial, the frame after the aerial hitboxes finish. These hitboxes are also only active for one frame.

This directly stems from the animation polish change. By making the point of QA where Pika is closer to the ground, the aerials have less time to be active, and that makes QAC Fair unable to damage opponents. The rest of the aerials are still good to go, with Nair and Uair still coming out for two active frames before the landing animation kicks in.

I had also thought L-canceling may affect the moves somehow, so I tested that too. You can L-cancel at any point of the aerial (from frames 2 to 8) and shorten the landing animation as normal. However, again, if you press down on the control stick, Pika fast falls, which brings him to the ground and ends the aerial animation faster. So there's once again no detriment to L-canceling QAC aerials besides standard tech flubs.

So what does this mean for us? Hopefully the timing of QAC is a bit more transparent (though again this is for in place, still need to test other angles than straight down). Personally, discovering that you only need to hold the control stick for a little bit of time encourages and allows more precise following input of a second zip or QAC, and I don't know how well known that was but at least I know now to not keep holding the control stick down to get the direction to work.

The serendipitous things are the mechanics of the QAC itself. The ability to control which aerial you use is of course known, but being able to control how long they last through both control stick and L-cancel is pretty cool and could be useful for mixing up pressure on shielding opponents. Since L-canceling is the 7 frames before landing, it feels like the aerial lasting 8 is particularly well designed (so kudos to the PMDT if they did that on purpose). And if you can't wrap your head around the timings for QAC Nair, Uair, and especially Bair, you always have QAC Dair, which trades more endlag and weaker hitboxes for relatively easy and guaranteed execution, to fall back to. Just based on these properties alone, I would be satisfied if the 3.5 animation polish was in the final version of the game.

But of course that leaves out Fair right? Well, since you can easily cut the Fair startup animation in half and L-cancel it, maybe it could be a great fake out to anyone who doesn't know the match-up. You QAC Fair right in front of them, shorten the endlag as much as possible, and instead proceed to grab or F-smash when they expect the relatively immediate aerial and shield or spot dodge respectively. You can think of it like a QAC Tomahawk Plus, or a high tech version of Wario's old dash grab. Whether or not this is outshined by simply QAC waveland remains to be seen, but that's another lab session and I'm tired so let's just stop there.
Damn it took me longer to type this than actually lab it out. Holy crap.

edits: minor grammar fixes