3.5 Link Discussion

[Deleted member]

i'm reporting you to shadic for being an assbandit

 

[EmptySky00]

i'm reporting you to shadic for being an assbandit

I put it down like a prison inmate.

 

[Zach777]

You guys are getting too upset about all this. Being a gentlemen is the best thing for everyone.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm sorry, you're right I didn't conduct myself correctly. Let me try again and try to be a gentleman this time.


@Umbreon I'll tell you what. I like ya. And I want ya. Now, we can do this the easy way, or we can do it the hard way.

The choice is yours.


But seriously, you're kinda late. We (Or rather I) stopped being upset and offended about 4 days ago. It's not that real.

 

[Nemiak temp]

___Umbreon___

 

[Fortress]

This whole thread.

 

[Problem2]

Top priority should be giving Link options to make it back from the ledge. Tether is terrible, aerial up-b is terrible. Both are slow and are beat out by grabbing the ledge and looking at what option Link is about to do.

 

[EmptySky00]

Id rather them make his onstage game threatening. That's more important than recovery.

 

[Thor]

While I don't know if Link discussion is the right place to put this, does anyone have the frame data for Link's bombs (I really just want the timer for how long they last, but other data would be nice)? The frame data thread doesn't have them, says at the top it's outdated, and I don't have my own PM setup or I'd tried to mess around with debug mode myself to test it (though I have no idea how that works...).

This whole thread.

Yeah this.

 

[EmptySky00]

While I don't know if Link discussion is the right place to put this, does anyone have the frame data for Link's bombs (I really just want the timer for how long they last, but other data would be nice)? The frame data thread doesn't have them, says at the top it's outdated, and I don't have my own PM setup or I'd tried to mess around with debug mode myself to test it (though I have no idea how that works...).



Yeah this.

40 frame pull, 7 frame throw, 7 second timer (iirc), 2 foot soft throw, 2.5 foot smash throw distance. /salt

 

[Thor]

I will verify the timer when I get the chance (since it's not some weird half seconds or third seconds or whatever). Also good to know I throw it 25% farther with a smash throw - thanks.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Empty where'd you get that data? I still haven't learned how to turn on the frames and stuff if there is one.

 

[Shadic]

He wasn't being serious.

Timer is 5 seconds, though.

 

[EmptySky00]

Oh. It was traditionally 7 seconds. But that's why I put (iirc). Mea culpa. Everything else aside from the sarcasm should be right.

L+R+dpad down. Then press start to freeze. Z to move 1 frame.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Anyone else think Uthrow should be a kill move? It would make sense since Link is kinda slashing you upwards like a badass. Killing lightweights at around 115-ish would be useful because Link has trouble killing anyways. Throwing out a grab is super risky, so the reward won't overshadow the risk. Some tweaks to the slash animation to make it look more powerful would be a necessary thing as well.

 

[EmptySky00]

No need for it to be a kill move because at 115ish you can start doing up-B/Dair(character dependant). His grab game is just really non-threatening right now anyway imo. Moderate to decent throws (kinda) and a terrible risky grab = no bueno. Regardless of what Hylian tried to convince me of, I respectfully disagree.

 

[DarkDeity15]

No need for it to be a kill move because at 115ish you can start doing up-B/Dair(character dependant). His grab game is just really non-threatening right now anyway imo. Moderate to decent throws (kinda) and a terrible risky grab = no bueno. Regardless of what Hylian tried to convince me of, I respectfully disagree.

It's just that uthrow never had much use outside of being a spacie combo move. Even then, it's very easy for them to DI out of being hit by a follow up. In any other situation, it's only use is to get people into the air when there are many other less risky ways to do so. Uthrow as a kill move would also be a better option than both up B and dair because you can't block a grab.

 

[EmptySky00]

Yes, but Dthrow serves the same purpose as a kill move around those percents. You just have to go through the added exertion of pressing up B. Uthrow is okish at early percents because it does 12% (gets them closer to being out of CC range) and against certain characters it sets them up to get ****ed by Uair which is a really good move. Getting them above you is pretty good because of how Uair always wins. It's mildly situational, but it's his second best throw. The main flaw is that even though Uthrow puts them above you, Link generally isn't fast enough to follow them effectively. But again, against some characters it works. Just choose it wisely I guess.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Which throw do you use against floatie ? Like Mario ? I do have trouble with him. Dthrow-> upB works on low %, but when his damages are a bit high, i can't have a consistent follow up on him after a Dthrow (if he DI correctly)

 

[BigHairyFart]

Which throw do you use against floatie ? Like Mario ? I do have trouble with him. Dthrow-> upB works on low %, but when his damages are a bit high, i can't have a consistent follow up on him after a Dthrow (if he DI correctly)

Try D-Throw>D-Air.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Well I did, but i can't do it consistenly :/ I don't know if this is just me that can't execute it properly/read properly his DI...
I'll for sure try it again next time i face my friend.

 

[EmptySky00]

He gets out of hitstun too quickly generally for it to work. It works on G&W confirmed.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone else think Uthrow should be a kill move? It would make sense since Link is kinda slashing you upwards like a badass. Killing lightweights at around 115-ish would be useful because Link has trouble killing anyways. Throwing out a grab is super risky, so the reward won't overshadow the risk. Some tweaks to the slash animation to make it look more powerful would be a necessary thing as well.

it's nice to think of ways to evolve the character, but the way link is so flawed right now, he actually needs other problems addressed instead. like not folding to crouching, shield abuse, dashdancing, or really having any way to be threatening at all. once you actually get the damage in, link is surprisingly good at killing, he just sucks buns at neutral and getting that damage. you generally want to try to round characters out by solving their critical flaws that make them unplayable before looking to add less necessary elements.

 

[EmptySky00]

Over solve a minor problem and create a bigger one on the other end of the spectrum. #design

 

[DarkDeity15]

it's nice to think of ways to evolve the character, but the way link is so flawed right now, he actually needs other problems addressed instead. like not folding to crouching, shield abuse, dashdancing, or really having any way to be threatening at all. once you actually get the damage in, link is surprisingly good at killing, he just sucks buns at neutral and getting that damage. you generally want to try to round characters out by solving their critical flaws that make them unplayable before looking to add less necessary elements.

You're definitely right about that. I thought I'd just share a neat idea. The fact that Link has trouble killing because of his inability to rack damage as well hadn't occurred to me for some reason.

It makes me think though... I kinda wonder why Usmash doesn't kill. I know it does in Sm4sh and Brawl, but heavies (mainly spacies) go almost no where unless they've taken a decent amount of damage in PM 3.5. Spacies can even drop right out before the last hit at low %. It does decent damage and can even combo into itself (again, mainly with spacies, however only if you have them over a certain % or if they're directly above you), but why have another combo move instead of a kill move?

As it stands now, it doesn't even deserve the amount of endlag it has currently with that weak knockback. The fact that you can't even reliably connect usmash with low % heavies when they're on the ground is a failiure of the move imo. Being punished for successfully landing a damn usmash should not be a thing. It makes spacies all the more harder matchups than they already are.

He currently only has a few options that will almost always kill at or below 125%. Up B, Up B semi-spike, Nair gimp (if Nair is spaced correctly, if not, it can even help your opponent recover in certain matchups, which is ubsurd imo) first-hit Fair and Dair.

Now let's see how many kill options Link has in Sm4sh at the same percent range; Usmash, tippered first-hit Fsmash, second-hit Fsmash, utilt (mostly on lighter characters), ftilt, dash attack, first-hit Dsmash (sends you at more of a vertical angle), second-hit Dsmash (sends you at a much more horizontal angle, and spells a high chance of death for any character with poor horizontal recoveries, even at fairly low percents), Nair gimp, Fair gimp, and Dair meteor (offstage). Don't even get me started on the rage influence.

I do realize that Sm4sh and PM are completely different games with a lot of different mechanics, but Link in Sm4sh is so much better than PM Link now that it's really no contest. Sure, you can say that I shouldn't be comparing the two at all, but it's still Link dispite how different they may be, and Namco seem to have done a way better job. Don't get me wrong, I love PM 3.5 Link. But it pisses me off now that I've realized just how much they'd nerfed him. As others have said, alot of said nerfs were either completely unnecessary or ridiculously overdone.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think link in smash 4 feels like a bag of *****. I really just want my goddamn character back minus the automatic boomerang angle. I started out trying to be optimistic but the more I play him the more I realize how ****ty and impotent he feels. Optimism is for idiots.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I think link in smash 4 feels like a bag of ****s. I really just want my goddamn character back minus the automatic boomerang angle. I started out trying to be optimistic but the more I play him the more I realize how ****ty and impotent he feels. Optimism is for idiots.

Maybe cuz he works completely differently compared to Melee/PM Link and you aren't playing him correctly? It could be that.

 

[EmptySky00]

I absolutely hate how they did Smash 4 Link. A lot of the changes feel gimmicky and stupid. Dash attack is terrible. I don't care what the consensus is, I don't want a frame 15+ dash attack that kills at 160 and never leads into anything. I cannot even convey to you how much I HATE how Dair is a meteor. The first time I landed that at 130 and expected it to kill only to have them plummet back to stage safely I was ready to kill someone. Why would Link have a Dair meteor when he's traditionally bad offstage? Nair is like frame 8 (estimation) so OoS options are literally non-existent still. Pre-patch his damn Fsmash didn't work properly. Gale boomerang is terrible design in general. Fair is back to its terrible brawl version where the first hit is bad.

It's not even about me playing the character wrong or any of that ****. I just think he was designed by a moron so I don't play him in that game whenever I'm drunk enough to touch it. It's whatever. Even if he's objectively better than his past versions, I still think he's trash and designed by a moron.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I absolutely hate how they did Smash 4 Link. A lot of the changes feel gimmicky and stupid. Dash attack is terrible. I don't care what the consensus is, I don't want a frame 15+ dash attack that kills at 160 and never leads into anything. I cannot even convey to you how much I HATE how Dair is a meteor. The first time I landed that at 130 and expected it to kill only to have them plummet back to stage safely I was ready to kill someone. Why would Link have a Dair meteor when he's traditionally bad offstage? Nair is like frame 8 (estimation) so OoS options are literally non-existent still. Pre-patch his damn Fsmash didn't work properly. Gale boomerang is terrible design in general. Fair is back to its terrible brawl version where the first hit is bad.

It's not even about me playing the character wrong or any of that ****. I just think he was designed by a moron so I don't play him in that game whenever I'm drunk enough to touch it. It's whatever. Even if he's objectively better than his past versions, I still think he's trash and designed by a moron.

To each their own. I absolutely love Sm4sh Link. If you don't like his Gale rang then there are two other options to choose from. Nair is fast as hell, no idea how you got that estimation. And Fair has almost no landlag, is faster, and is an incredible gimp move to make up for being weaker. No OoS options? Have you even played him enough? Because he sure as hell does lol. Dair being a meteor and not an onstage kill move doesn't bother me much at all. I simply got the f*** used to it and utilized it the way it was designed to be utilized. It took a while to do so, and missing the old Dair is understandable. I do too. However I've successfully landed it countless times offstage since then and it feels great. Now people have a reason to fear you when either you or them are recovering from higher up. I don't care if he's "traditionally bad offstage". What makes you think that's always supposed to be the same in every game? What gimicks are you even talking about? He's simply a completely different Link.

You could've just said you didn't like Sm4sh Link and left it at that, but no. You just had to be all hostile and call whoever designed him a moron (which is more than likely Sakurai, by the way). Meanwhile PM Link is just a buffed version of Melee Link. What drives you to hate change so much? I play Link because he's my favorite character and couldn't care less what changes they'd make to him as long as they don't make him a terrible character. And even then, I would still play him. I mained him in Brawl until I discovered what PM was for goodness' sake. Just give Sm4sh Link a chance dude. You might just warm up to him. Think of him as a new character.

 

[EmptySky00]

Custom movesets aren't tourney legal, so why the **** would I use them?
Nair is NOT fast as hell. I can see the startup lmfao. It's the same speed as Brawl Nair probably because they both look the same speed, which is relatively slow for a Nair. Compared to the rest of his moveset, it's relatively fast. Compared to other sex kick Nairs, it's pretty damn slow.

Ya, I just stopped reading. I'll just continue hostility. I would have censored my reasoning but I don't care enough about your feelings to do so lmfao. Sakurai is in fact a moron at designing characters. Turns out that's the result when you design for casuals. I don't like my character's moves being gimped for the sake of stupid gimmicks. Dair meteor, dash attack, gale boomerang, all that type of ****. You can be upset about my view on the character if you want, but I honestly don't care.

I absolutely refuse to use that abominable piece of gimmick garbage. Even touching that character makes me sick. You sure as hell are not going to convince me. I don't even like Smash 4 regardless; I only play it so I can dance on the corpses of casuals who think they're safe from better players because Sakurailand, so why the **** would I torture myself for the sake of character loyalty in a game I don't even enjoy?

Melee Link also wasn't very good and now he's surrounded by more good characters than in melee so that means absolutely nothing. I don't hate change, I hate stupid change. Turns out the only reason I play Smash at all is because of Link. If he were removed from the game I just wouldn't play. Hence why I absolutely hate feeling like my character is gimped.

This **** is off topic as hell anyway so whatever.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Custom movesets aren't tourney legal, so why the **** would I use them?
Nair is NOT fast as hell. I can see the startup lmfao. It's the same speed as Brawl Nair probably because they both look the same speed, which is relatively slow for a Nair. Compared to the rest of his moveset, it's relatively fast. Compared to other sex kick Nairs, it's pretty damn slow.

Ya, I just stopped reading. I'll just continue hostility. I would have censored my reasoning but I don't care enough about your feelings to do so lmfao. Sakurai is in fact a moron at designing characters. Turns out that's the result when you design for casuals. I don't like my character's moves being gimped for the sake of stupid gimmicks. Dair meteor, dash attack, gale boomerang, all that type of ****. You can be upset about my view on the character if you want, but I honestly don't care.

I absolutely refuse to use that abominable piece of gimmick garbage. Even touching that character makes me sick. You sure as hell are not going to convince me. I don't even like Smash 4 regardless; I only play it so I can dance on the corpses of casuals who think they're safe from better players because Sakurailand, so why the **** would I torture myself for the sake of character loyalty in a game I don't even enjoy?

Melee Link also wasn't very good and now he's surrounded by more good characters than in melee so that means absolutely nothing. I don't hate change, I hate stupid change. Turns out the only reason I play Smash at all is because of Link. If he were removed from the game I just wouldn't play. Hence why I absolutely hate feeling like my character is gimped.

This **** is off topic as hell anyway so whatever.

I can't remember the last time I've met anyone this dense on the Internet. Have you ever heard of the phrase "treat others the way you want to be treated"? And, you know, the guy who is one of the reasons you are who you are right now? You just insulted the inventor of Smash. If you don't care, that's on you. And yes, Link underwent drastic changes. But that in no way "gimps" him. Your silly attempt at hurting my feelings only had me realize how incredibly shallow you are. He is simply a different Link than in Melee and PM and a better one at that, no matter how much you despise his "gimmicky garbageness" lol. And casual, eh? Sm4sh certainly is a better competitive game than Brawl. It has potential. Custom moves are also legal btw (goes to show how much you know about the game). My bad for carrying this off topic.

 

[Deleted member]

see? 10/10 assbandit.

tl;dr 3.5 link sucks, he has some okay MUs but a lot of characters can just run him over because he hits like wet bread. /thread

 

[BigHairyFart]

see? 10/10 assbandit.

tl;dr 3.5 link sucks, he has some okay MUs but a lot of characters can just run him over because he hits like wet bread. /thread

^This

Also, this is a PM thread, stop discussing Smash 4 here, we've already derailed the thread enough.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I think I'm gonna be drowning in fuel...People are just dumping it in this thread for a huge fire. D:

I don't think Link sucks but he's not half as good as 3.02 Link. He's simply a slightly buffed Melee Link - plain and simple. For the time being I still find him fun but I've recently picked up Falco to handle his nigh-unwinnable matchups now...particularly Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

I think I'm gonna be drowning in fuel...People are just dumping it in this thread for a huge fire. D:

I don't think Link sucks but he's not half as good as 3.02 Link. He's simply a slightly buffed Melee Link - plain and simple. For the time being I still find him fun but I've recently picked up Falco to handle his nigh-unwinnable matchups now...particularly Sheik.

melee link sucks. if you have to switch characters because you can't solo main in a game that's specifically designed by the best minds in the community to be competitively balanced, your character sucks.

if link doesn't suck, who does?

 

[Heero Yuy]

You use the word "sucks" 3 times. It's completely subjective so nail that into your head bro. Besides your opinion on matchups is waaaaaay different from most of us actual Link mains. You might think Fox and Falcon destroy Link but I personally love the matchups, as do a handful of others. Lastly everybody here has already stated the tools Link has to at least keep him viable. Maybe not solo winning tournaments but still good.

The purpose of P:M is balance, where one single character will have strong advantages and disadvantages over the whole cast. Link has some terrible matchups in this game such as Sheik and Falco while excelling in others such as Peach and GnW. Plenty of characters are like that now, esp. the bawrl characters whom have trouble competing with the Melee top tiers. Also you're assuming I switched mains. Nope - look under my name between the Fox and Bowser Jr. icons.

This game ain't like Melee where only 5 characters are viable. Hax had made even made the comment before only Fox, Falco, and Marth can win tourneys alone. Having a secondary for the purpose of matchups in P:M is a fine idea in this game.

 

[DarkDeity15]

You use the word "sucks" 3 times. It's completely subjective so nail that into your head bro. Besides your opinion on matchups is waaaaaay different from most of us actual Link mains. You might think Fox and Falcon destroy Link but I personally love the matchups, as do a handful of others. Lastly everybody here has already stated the tools Link has to at least keep him viable. Maybe not solo winning tournaments but still good.

The purpose of P:M is balance, where one single character will have strong advantages and disadvantages over the whole cast. Link has some terrible matchups in this game such as Sheik and Falco while excelling in others such as Peach and GnW. Plenty of characters are like that now, esp. the bawrl characters whom have trouble competing with the Melee top tiers. Also you're assuming I switched mains. Nope - look under my name between the Fox and Bowser Jr. icons.

This game ain't like Melee where only 5 characters are viable. Hax had made even made the comment before only Fox, Falco, and Marth can win tourneys alone. Having a secondary for the purpose of matchups in P:M is a fine idea in this game.

Yip. I mean, if PM 3.5 Link was in Melee, he would probably decimate everyone except for the top 5. He'd more than likely be right up there with Falcon and probably be better than Marth or even Jiggs. But when it comes to PM, he just isn't good anymore and is "meh" at best.

But for the time being I'm definitely looking for a solid secondary, though I've yet to play anyone well enough yet to do so. Right now I'm looking at:

, , and maybe , though I'm sure some will take offense to that lol. I'll be headed to their threads for some friendly advice.

 

[Deleted member]

You use the word "sucks" 3 times. It's completely subjective so nail that into your head bro.

it's not an opinion. link objectively sucks.

 

[J3f]

All Balance in P:M is subjective. No character can enter the Konami code and autowin a match, otherwise they would be objectively better.

The problem with Link is that he has nearly unwinnable matchups. This can be mitigated by switching to a secondary, but why should I when I could just Main a top tier character who doesn't have terrible matchups.

People shouldn't have to learn 2 characters to deal with matchups, especially when characters like Fox have no bad matchups. You can't compete when you have to split your time between learning 2 characters against someone who only has to learn 1.

 

[EmptySky00]

melee link sucks. if you have to switch characters because you can't solo main in a game that's specifically designed by the best minds in the community to be competitively balanced, your character sucks.

if link doesn't suck, who does?

Sheik. She's bottom tier still, right?

Lol.

Also, Falco. He's 20-25th at best. Fox MIGHT have a case for top 10. Depends on the day and how many Lunks are there to hurt his feelings.