3.5 Link Discussion

[AtlusKnight]

Not going to lie even if I'm a low level player I see a lot of the same things EmptySky has been running into. Although I'm still working out how to play Link being CC'd then combo'd in this game is really easy on link. I find that PM is a combo easy game really so with that being the name of the game, getting combo'd in general is hard on link even with DI on point because from what I see most of the time when link gets hit usually it is stock especially and since they nerfed his recovery even more so stock taken.

Converting with Link is also pretty difficult since his neutral and his offensive is hard to blend together, literally smacking someone with bomb then going into something else depends entirely on how the bomb knocked the opponent. And his god awful grab taught me the habit to only grab when worth it although I do disagree with EmptySky about his conversion off of grab where even though down throw into everything you can still start some powerful conversions with it or even a tech chase situation.
Melee match ups though are the same honestly and since this game has the easier combos Link has incredible trouble against those match ups.
Although I am happy that he isn't an easy character to pick up and in 3.0 IMO since everyone was calling link out to being top 10 should have made it to majors in tournament, now I think it will be even harder to see Link in majors.

 

[Beorn]

While I don't agree with Empty sky's general tone and the way he presents himself, I and others share his opinion. Other good players see how nonthreatening and easily dismantled links game is. I would honestly like to hear who you guys think is worse than Link. While empty sky, umbreon and I see how not good link is now through testing and playtime, it should be quite clear by his attributes and attack properties that he is bad in this game.

 

[Hylian]

Empty if you're going to go spewing around filth you should actually fact check yourself first, it's hilarious how many things you're posting that just aren't true. Like you know..saying links grab has 40 more frames of endlag than it actually has. Or asking to revert to melee nair when he already has the exact melee nair stats the move just ends 2 frames earlier...

This feels like when people were telling me that 2.6 rang sucked when it released because it didn't go as far as 2.5 despite my constant praise of the move. People tried to tell me 2.6 link sucked on release because of the rang change and then he ended up being rated top 5 or top 10 by many top players and his rang was considered broken. I'm sorry someone you respect has made you think the character is horrible, but it's simply not true. Link is viable. If you agree that he's viable than all you are doing is complaining for the sake of it which is something no one wants to see or hear.

 

[Deleted member]

hylian for what its worth we arrived at those conclusions for many reasons that have already been covered pretty thoroughly at this point. furthermore, we've seen several other people coming in and saying the same thing. me and empty don't agree on every issue, for example he still thinks link is viable and merely bad while i blatantly think link is non-viable garbage thats worse than 3.02 ganon.

i looked up the socal players and you guys aren't players bad but you definitely aren't playing the match-ups in a way that shows why link is so exploitable.

edit: i dont deny that empty is basically an emo ***** that has permanent Richter scale 9.0 PMS (suck it lol) but he has a point that no one has really described any way to get a meaningful conversion with this character with the projectile nerf since they're soft to DD/WD/CC/OOS abuse aka every form of interaction in neutral.

 

[Beorn]

Empty if you're going to go spewing around filth you should actually fact check yourself first, it's hilarious how many things you're posting that just aren't true. Like you know..saying links grab has 40 more frames of endlag than it actually has. Or asking to revert to melee nair when he already has the exact melee nair stats the move just ends 2 frames earlier...

This feels like when people were telling me that 2.6 rang sucked when it released because it didn't go as far as 2.5 despite my constant praise of the move. People tried to tell me 2.6 link sucked on release because of the rang change and then he ended up being rated top 5 or top 10 by many top players and his rang was considered broken. I'm sorry someone you respect has made you think the character is horrible, but it's simply not true. Link is viable. If you agree that he's viable than all you are doing is complaining for the sake of it which is something no one wants to see or hear.

We all know Empty isn't the best at written expression of ideas. (Sorry empty... You need some midol)

Competent players other than empty have expressed their opinions on link. I've done many hours of play testing myself with good players, even since before 3.5 was out. I've never considered link bad in pm before now. I thought 2.6 rang was an amazing change and began respecting you more as a player because of your understanding of link and ability to see how a shorter throw distance would help this mid range fighter.

Yes link is viable. I'm not arguing this with you. I thought 3.02 ganon was viable as well. But they are/were not in the same tiers as the rest of the cast excluding olimar. I don't need umbreon to tell me my character isn't good, but it is nice to have a strong name in the community behind this idea. You have never played against me and I mostly play friendlies with good players in Tn rather than go to tournies because of my jobs, so my opinion means much less than umbreons which makes it difficult to get my points across.

I believe link has been viable in Pm, if sometimes over-centralized, until this version. I don't believe link should be scrapped or that he is complete garbage. He has some very good attributes and attacks. I say he only needs a few small adjustments in angles of moves and knockback. While I would also say he and toonlink should have their grabs fixed, this is not something he needs to be viable. I would list a full summary of the few changes I think he needs, but I've already gone over this in multiple threads.

 

[Hylian]

There is nothing wrong with expressing your opinions in a well-thought out manner Beorn. I personally think Link is viable and have my reasons for thinking so, but I'm not discrediting anyone. I take issue with Emptys complaining because of his demeanor more than what he's actually trying to say.

I personally thought Link was horrible for quite some time before 3.5 came out. I've been playtesting the 3.5 build and helping Shadic tweak it for months and I've had many an argument about links viability. My belief in his viability comes from extensive playtesting with other great players, and constant tweaking to make him feel better. He is still a considerably stronger character than he was in melee, and the rest of the cast being toned down as well as Link really helps soften the blow of his nerfs. Particularly the fact that recoveries have been toned down so much helps him. Before Link was incredible at edgeguarding, and now he's even better at it because of the recovery nerfs and things like sourspot nair being weaker makes it combo into strong hit nair which kills. I think this character is just really hard to play now, and you need to play him very differently than what people are used to. You need to optimize well, something that Link players haven't been doing because they've been relying on the overly strong attributes of his moves. The jump squat buff helps him considerably against spacies in ways people aren't really exploiting yet. His ability to waveland after bair is an incredibly strong tool that pretty much no Link players use..and it isn't even hard! It gives Link some of the safest and trickest shield pressure in the game and really opens up his combo game with things like reverse bair hit -> waveland forward into a variety of things. Link players have not figured out edgeguard to the extent that they should have yet with the nair changes...There are so many things that people could be doing differently with the character. I want people to figure these things out for themselves, and when I start seeing videos of links utilizing all of his tools and changes and those players are still telling me he's unviable I might be more inclined to agree with them. I'm not going to just agree to something that I personally have done more testing on than any other Link player without giving people the time to catch up.

That being said I generally value the input of others and have been keeping an eye out on Link videos and placings.

 

[Deleted member]

the problem with that is that "hard to play" = bad in the same way that fox is piss easy, because the full phrase should be "fox is easy to win with because he's good". just because the character has complicated inputs does not necessarily add meaningful depth, and you even gave me an easy example. reserve bair on shield is a horrible idea that should get you killed. these kind of 2004 tactics are not going to suddenly promote good game play and good results because they went extinct years ago and for good reason- they're bad and will get you killed.

the unfortunate truth to smash is that the better you get, the more and more confined you are forced to play because deviating from your best strategies generally means you forfeit win margin all over unnecessarily. encouraging our players to have to rely on **** like "reads" and "mixups" either by gaming culture or in this game by character design is a retrogression in metagame development rather than a progression and makes link horrible vs anyone that's actually good and won't lose to jank.

even all that aside you really don't want to make characters intentionally "hard" to begin with because having a more forgiving character is worth a ton of value over the length of a long tournament day versus various and challenging opponents. it also flagrantly defies the logic of trying to make smash more technically accessible by making it easier as per the rest of the cast.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm not the best at written expression when it turns into an argument and I get agitated and I default to aggression too quickly when people start annoying me. Writing in general I'm good at usually. Just not about video games. The issue with Smash is that while I'm more knowledgeable than (maybe) most of the player base, my knowledge of the game isn't particularly massive like Umbreon's so my statements can be wrong, in which case it's a learning experience.

@Umbreon , I'm not THAT emo lol. You hyperbolic sociopath.

@ Hylian I used to be able to kill with Strong hit Nair, but the changelist said the strong hit was weakened. It definitely doesn't kill anymore from my experience. At least not at the same percent. In terms of edgeguarding it does, but it definitely feels like it hits significantly weaker than before. I also said I may have been wrong about his grab and I might have been citing spin attack's frames and getting them mixed up. It's not that real. I didn't check it because it wasn't that important, and I was referring to the entire animation which should be like 70 something? 11 frame startup and whatever amount of cooldown. I just checked and I was getting the data mixed up with Melee where it was 95ish total frames. So it wasn't deliberate. It was simply a mixup of information. I know it's less in PM, but I simply pulled a number out of my head that corresponded to the information. The point of the matter wasn't that my number was spot-on, but rather that his grab game is skewed in its risk/reward relationship. And when I said I wanted Melee Nair back, it was a joke because we've had this argument before. I want the hitbox that lasts the entire animation. It's definitely not like that still. I checked in debug mode for lulz.

 

[Hylian]

@Umbreon

Why in the world would you think I'm referring to technical ability when I said the character is hard? He's very easy to play from a technical standpoint..which invalidates your entire post pretty much. You are also completely wrong about bair. First of all, I never mentioned reverse bair on shield. Reading comprehension is good yeah? I did mention bair on shield, which is one of the best shield pressure options available to any character. The last time I tested it, it beat every OoS option in the game except Fox frame perfect shine OoS(3frame jumpsquatQQ)...Link can completely get away from every other OoS option with wavelanding considering the move ends 5 frames before he hits the ground when done correctly. It's also funny you should mention making characters harder is a bad thing when I've done nothing but the opposite. It died out in melee because players couldn't do the 2 frame tech consistantly, it's twice as easy in PM.

 

[Deleted member]

Writing in general I'm be good at usually.

10/10 4tehlulz

 

[EmptySky00]

10/10 4tehlulz

Oh dear, I'm being criticized by an assbandit. I'm not bad at writing don't give me that. I'll cut you. That typo was computer johns lol. Remember when I said my charger is ****ed? It causes sporadic lag when it switches from saying it's charging then not charging. That **** causes mad typos. I had to correct them in this post from it like 12 times thus far. **** happens.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not the best at written expression when it turns into an argument and I get agitated and I default to aggression too quickly when people start annoying me. Writing in general I'm good at usually. Just not about video games. The issue with Smash is that while I'm more knowledgeable than (maybe) most of the player base, my knowledge of the game isn't particularly massive like Umbreon's so my statements can be wrong, in which case it's a learning experience.

@Umbreon , I'm not THAT emo lol. You hyperbolic sociopath.

@ Hylian I used to be able to kill with Strong hit Nair, but the changelist said the strong hit was weakened. It definitely doesn't kill anymore from my experience. At least not at the same percent. In terms of edgeguarding it does, but it definitely feels like it hits significantly weaker than before. I also said I may have been wrong about his grab and I might have been citing spin attack's frames and getting them mixed up. It's not that real. I didn't check it because it wasn't that important, and I was referring to the entire animation which should be like 70 something? 11 frame startup and whatever amount of cooldown. I just checked and I was getting the data mixed up with Melee where it was 95ish total frames. So it wasn't deliberate. It was simply a mixup of information. I know it's less in PM, but I simply pulled a number out of my head that corresponded to the information. The point of the matter wasn't that my number was spot-on, but rather that his grab game is skewed in its risk/reward relationship. And when I said I wanted Melee Nair back, it was a joke because we've had this argument before. I want the hitbox that lasts the entire animation. It's definitely not like that still. I checked in debug mode for lulz.

See this is a much better post.

Strong hit nair doesn't kill from the stage yes, but in the context of my post I'm referring to it killing as an edgeguard, which it's very good at. I don't think the move should kill from on-stage aside from extremely high %'s.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all, I never mentioned reverse bair on shield. Reading comprehension is good yeah? I did mention bair on shield, which is one of the best shield pressure options available to any character.

It gives Link some of the safest and trickest shield pressure in the game and really opens up his combo game with things like reverse bair hit -> waveland forward into a variety of things.

frankly i think you should separate your points, since it would at least make them a little more clear, but if you want to go that route mocking my reading then i can openly return the favor for think bair on shield is good (it's horrible, offers no real pressure, trades to disrespect options horribly, folds to crouching, doesn't combo into anything, sucks on DI, and really isn't worth the risk in any way).

want to try this again?

 

[EmptySky00]

See this is a much better post.

Strong hit nair doesn't kill from the stage yes, but in the context of my post I'm referring to it killing as an edgeguard, which it's very good at. I don't think the move should kill from on-stage aside from extremely high %'s.

I'll try to stick to that then. My apologies. Before I used strong hit Nair to push them into a bad position and get them grounded or to kill them at 150%ish. It was able to edgeguard with the old version as well, so where is the added benefit coming from? Can't some other nairs kill onstage with their strong hits? I never thought it was that out of the ordinary.

 

[Hylian]

frankly i think you should separate your points, since it would at least make them a little more clear, but if you want to go that route mocking my reading then i can openly return the favor for think bair on shield is good (it's horrible, offers no real pressure, trades to disrespect options horribly, folds to crouching, doesn't combo into anything, sucks on DI, and really isn't worth the risk in any way).

want to try this again?

I did separate my points with the coordinating conjunction "And". That entire sentence regardless is supporting the one before it which talks about waveland out of bair, I thought it to be pretty clear. I apologize for mocking your reading, I'm rather sarcastic. If it's any consolation, I'm absolutely horrible at spelling.

On bair...I don't follow? It's kind of hard to argue with frame data. There is no risk to bair on shield unless you are playing a fox who can frame perfect shine OoS. You have frame advantage in every other situation. The move does combo even on DI away/down away depending on % and character obviously(DI up makes it super easy to combo which a lot of people do for some reason). It offers plenty of pressure allowing you to safely cross up your opponent and jab the back of their shield allowing you to react to their OoS options or apply pressure with another jab/threaten grab, and various other things.

 

[EmptySky00]

Empty if you're going to go spewing around filth you should actually fact check yourself first, it's hilarious how many things you're posting that just aren't true. Like you know..saying links grab has 40 more frames of endlag than it actually has. Or asking to revert to melee nair when he already has the exact melee nair stats the move just ends 2 frames earlier...

This feels like when people were telling me that 2.6 rang sucked when it released because it didn't go as far as 2.5 despite my constant praise of the move. People tried to tell me 2.6 link sucked on release because of the rang change and then he ended up being rated top 5 or top 10 by many top players and his rang was considered broken. I'm sorry someone you respect has made you think the character is horrible, but it's simply not true. Link is viable. If you agree that he's viable than all you are doing is complaining for the sake of it which is something no one wants to see or hear.

I'm not complaining for the sake of it. My stance on Link is that he's workable, but I just don't like the way he was handled and I feel sort of indignant over it. I think the nerfs were taken too far and that's the main issue I have. I'm not so thick that I'd just take everything Umbreon says at face-value if I didn't see evidence to back it. I think he thinks it's worse than it is, or he's simply trying to be emphatic or I'm optimistic. I understand I was one of the people who didn't like the 2.6 rang because the animation looked jank and it felt weird to use in comparison, but you explained to me why it was better and I changed my stance on it. My understanding of the game was also significantly less when that took place. I've improved on that front in the past 2ish years. I present my thoughts and allow people to correct me if I'm wrong so I can better sharpen my understanding. I don't think he's horrible.
I'll just compile what I disliked.

1. Bomb throw distance was nerfed. I understand it was to match melee, but it was a blatant nerf for something that wasn't a problem.
2. Nair strength nerf. Obvious reasons.
3. Dash attack nerf.
4. Zair landing lag nerf. I understand the universal change to tethers, but the move feels significantly less usable than before and the tipper hit still feels inconsistent. I didn't think the move was a problem before.
5. Boomerang. I think the changed angle was fine. The sweetspot nerf was fine I guess. But then once the problematic aspects were removed, it seems like the move was nerfed more as if the problematic aspects still existed. The damage nerf was clearly to make it less good on shield. I disagree that it was necessary, but it can be argued to the contrary I guess. The 2 frame extra startup isn't relevant. The 20 frame cooldown is whatever, but it seems blatantly unnecessary now that the move doesn't do what it did before.

That's really it. It's nothing really major. Most of the changes just seemed to be unnecessary and done for no reason except in the interest of making him worse because he was a "problem" before. The character does feel significantly less threatening now with the removal of a large portion of his conversion game. It feels like I have to work significantly harder to get results that are inferior to what better characters get for free. I'm not opposed to having to work for results, but damn.

 

[Deleted member]

On bair...I don't follow? It's kind of hard to argue with frame data. There is no risk to bair on shield unless you are playing a fox who can frame perfect shine OoS. You have frame advantage in every other situation. The move does combo even on DI away/down away depending on % and character obviously(DI up makes it super easy to combo which a lot of people do for some reason). It offers plenty of pressure allowing you to safely cross up your opponent and jab the back of their shield allowing you to react to their OoS options or apply pressure with another jab/threaten grab, and various other things.

so here's the situation- i have shield up (idk why you'd ever block vs link in the air when his only flexible air to ground moves suck so hard vs crouch or WD back but whatever) and you bair the shield. if i challenge it on startup, we trade whatever and you're above me and i recover way fast and do whatever i want. if i react to the position prior to the attack and challenge the startup with a WD back instead of an attack OOS, i have an easy option to outrange you from a point of positional advantage (on the ground vs you in the air with no access to a move with real range). if i respect block it nets you no real advantage whatsoever. if i just OOS or WD back OOS and mess up and get hit by the bair theres pretty much no way the 2nd hit will connect, and i have access to accidental ASDI into the ground and i recover faster than you anyway without even wanting to. if i jump into it and mistime it, miss the DI and both hits hit, i still have had more than enough time to react to the second hit and it STILL won't combo, but if i mess up the 2nd DI too then i still have another chance to buffer block and you have a very real chance to drop momentum right there even if i have no idea what's going on AFTER 3 ****-ups. the only way link's bair is good on shield is if i don't try to interact with it in any way or make multiple punts in the process. ofc this tedium isn't the real issue, the REAL issue is that the entire character is like that, except he has no neutral game either since his projectiles offer such poor stage control.

 

[Shadic]

@ Hylian I used to be able to kill with Strong hit Nair, but the changelist said the strong hit was weakened. It definitely doesn't kill anymore from my experience. At least not at the same percent. In terms of edgeguarding it does, but it definitely feels like it hits significantly weaker than before.

Stop hitting with his hip. Link's Nair sweetspot is on his foot, exactly like it was in Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Stop hitting with his hip. Link's Nair sweetspot is on his foot, exactly like it was in Melee.

as an aside, is there a reason the development team has reverting to emulate balance from a game that we already know to be imbalanced? legitimate question, no sarcasm.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Boozer's always been underrated...

No, last patch he was sub-garbage tier. Now he's much better, and probably underrated.

Also, currently reading the thread. Link's RAR bair -> crossup waveland is badass. It's possible he's bad now, but I haven't seen any good link players lately to demonstrate one way or the other. His MU against ROB is probably unwinnable though.

[reads]

... Jesus christ what's going on in here

what's wrong with you people

 

[Deleted member]

[reads]

... Jesus christ what's going on in here

what's wrong with you people

i squeeze gats till my clips is empty

 

[Shadic]

as an aside, is there a reason the development team has reverting to emulate balance from a game that we already know to be imbalanced? legitimate question, no sarcasm.

We don't always revert to Melee, not many of Link's moves in Project M actually match Melee stats 100%. Off the top of my head, only Nair and FSmash do, actually.

That point aside, in Link's case many moves had some subtleties that were basically wiped away from moved back when they were statically buffed either in B+ days or when I initially made a sweep of the character back in 2010 or so. I'm of the opinion that emphasizing spacing for different rewards (such as the Nair change) is often better design than having four static hitboxes on a move that you can just club the opponent with... Within reason, of course.

 

[Vidiot825]

I'm under the impression that so far link is completely usable, so long as you play him smart. He's not a character you can openly approach with in the first place, and I feel this patch emphasized that fact.

Do I feel the nerfs were taken a bit too far? I'd say yes. If you had players of equal caliber playing fox v link, I feel like link would lose. Now don't get me wrong, he stands a good chance, definitely more than melee to say the least. And some of his nerfs were deserved as well, mostly in the recovery and boomerang department, which I think we're handled rather well while maintaining the basics of his play style. My biggest discrepancy on the new design is actually the fact that tether is no longer breakable into up special, and that because of the adjusted Nair mechanic, Nair doesn't lead into a grab as often (is that one of the reasons you guys changed it?)

On another note, I have a question or two about the current patch.
1) did you guys increase standing tether length? I've been noticing it go further than I remember recently, maybe something like melee tether grab length?
2) you guys reverted bombs to melee, so to speak. From playing around, it's melee throw distance but the same explosion angles as before, not the explosion knock back from melee which led into follow up hits such as down thrust. I want to know if that's the case or if it's just me.

Thanks for the hard work you guys, hopefully link will continue to be a more than viable character in the current meta

 

[l3thargy]

I noticed on the Oot model when you do the Ocarina taunt his leg looks a little weird, anyone else notice it or is it just me?

 

[J3f]

I noticed on the Oot model when you do the Ocarina taunt his leg looks a little weird, anyone else notice it or is it just me?

They're too close together, Link looks uncomfortable like he has to take a piss.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Why is Link's Fair a better kill move than most of his smash attacks? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why do Link's aerials have more kill potential than his damn smash attacks, namely his Dsmash and espesially Fsmash (cuz Melee stats)? And why doesn't Usmash kill at all? Fox's Usmash has way more kill potential than any of Link's smash attacks while still being such a fast move, Meanwhile all of Link's smashes are laggy and have trouble killing reliably which is plain absurd. It's as if devs wanted Link to have trouble with spacies. As if they weren't hard enough before, not to mention that they were hardly touched at all for some bizarre reason.

Here's a list of things that I don't believe needed to be nerfed/were nerfed too hard or was needlessly changed:

1. Zair~ This was one of Link's best Zoning tools. Making it primarily a setup move and giving it more landlag doesn't make it any better at all.

2. Ftilt~ It sends people absolutely nowhere now. I know it was strong before, but jeez.

3. Utilt~ What was the point in making it slower? I have no clue. Was it really that damn amazing?

4. Bomb speed and distance~ I don't see the point in needing to change this. There really, really was no point. I'm very curious as to why someone felt the need to slow down Link's bombs and shorten their distance when thrown. This one had me scratching my head the most. Stop trying to force Melee stats on Link when they have no real benefit.

5. Nair~ It was perfectly fine before. Why did it need a change? It was one of Link's only good gimping tools with Bair falling way back as his second. And so what if it was strong enough to kill onstage? It was still a good kill move, which I find Link lacks. Only Fair, Dair and grounded up b are reliable kill moves depending on damage % and character weight. While it still is good for gimping, it can even help someone recover now in certain MUs if you don't hit with Link's foot. I can see it being useful in teams, but it's detrimental when it comes to gimping and makes it worse than it was before. Making Nair have the same stats as Melee was unnecessary (though being better able to confirm off of weak hit Nairs on stage is cool and sets up grabs), and like Empty said, it still isn't as good as it was in Melee because the hitboxes aren't out as long. If they were then maybe I wouldn't mind it as much, however saving people offstage instead of actually gimping them will still be annoying for the most part lol.

6. Rang~ I understand that it needed a nerf, but the nerfs to this move were just really over the top, and it by far negatively affects Link the most. The reduced knock back and changed launch angle make conversions limited. The reduced damage on top of all that really doesn't help. I don't see why it needed such a huge nerf. It was one of the only things he had against Shiek and spacies because of how good it was. This alone makes those MUs much, much harder. And for what reason? Cuz Melee?

Everything else I am completely fine with. I hope devs take this into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing 3.5 Link. In fact, I really like him and Link definitely feels much smoother and more polished than before. He's much more challenging to play as and it makes landing those combos feel very satisfying and rewarding. But these needless nerfs and changes kinda piss me off and need to be addressed, otherwise I have no idea how the PMDT want us to play Link. I don't hate them for it or anything. I'm just very concerned about Link's viability. He just seems mediocre now compared to the rest of the cast. Explain to me why Link absolutely needed the nerfs and other stuff I mentioned and then maybe I'd change my mind.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Hi everyone !

I just would like someone to remind me what are the exact changes from 3.0 to 3.5 for the brang and the Nair.
I know they changed, I can feel it, but I can't explain what changed... Especially with the boomerang, there is something to do with an angle but I can't really see the consequences...
If someone can try to explain me, that would be super nice !

Anyway, I won't whine or anything about the new Link (3.5) since I didn't take the time to train yet. I just wanted to say that i'm sad that the DACUS is almost frame perfect... That was a good way to approach/punish some moves...

One last thing : how do you usually edgeguard with Link ? Just curious, I have some trouble to do it well and i read that he is a good char to do it !

 

[Deleted member]

thank you shadic for your post. i definitely see a lot of stuff referred to as being "just like melee" and i'm starting to wonder how hard my observation bias really is. to be fair the slogan "bcuz melee" is rightfully alienating and i really wish the game and the development team would take more pride in differentiating itself from the other games. pm doesnt play like anything like the other smash games and is imo much, much better for it.

 

[Problem2]

I do like when the same move has several different properties depending on the timing and spacing of the attack. I think that in early development, when moves behaved the same no matter where and when you hit with it was when people complained the most about "auto-combos" and "forced playstyles". As a long time Melee Link main, I do appreciate a lot of these changes that were done to Link that make him a more complex character. I enjoy the n-air changes, the bomb changes, and the changes on f-air. Some reverted changes are kind of scary (in a, could be terrible for Link, kind of scary), like Link's throws. Some combinations of weight & fall speed are hard to convert anything off of grab. In some cases, it's hard to not get punished for using any of his throws where some characters will drift in after the throw at low percent and try to hit you.

Link's always had a weakness of being easily shield pressured and being big combo food in Melee and PM, but with the huge recovery nerfs, he is now easily edge guarded. The problem with Link's recovery is that all his recovery options are super punished by just grabbing the ledge, and there is little to nothing Link can do about it. His best bet is to try to protect the ledge via projectiles, but that means stopping characters from RAR wavedashing to the ledge, then refreshing ledge invincibility as necessary. You can't hit players as they grab the ledge! Recovery high is hardly considered a mix-up with how slowly his up-b travels combined with the insane landing lag he is.

What's the worst about this is that these weaknesses in recovery and on stage stack on top of each against Link. They practically lead into each other. Once shield pressured, it is easy to be forced to the ledge, and once at the edge, it is easy to be edge guarded. It's to the point where Link feels as helpless as Falcon when getting hit, except Link doesn't have the speed and power to just turn things back around.

The PM team has already tried having a Link with a very powerful zoning / mid-range game and it lead to giving big, slow characters an extremely difficult match-up to overcome, so buffing the heck out of his neutral game is not going to lead to a healthy meta. I mentioned it once briefly in this thread, but I think Link first and foremost needs a more in depth recovery kit. The PMDT basically took away his bomb jumping, which Link could use to recovery really high at the cost of taking lots of damage. The PMDT also took away the tether cancel at the ledge, which was too good combined with 3 tethers and his old tether speed. With only 1 tether and the slower real-in, how is tether cancelling such a broken mechanic?

Giving him a recovery mix-up helps mitigate the fact that he can be pushed to the ledge so easily by the fast characters and in general balances out the fact that Link isn't as explosive as many PM characters.

 

[J3f]

Large Characters had problems with most of the cast in 3.02. Their matchups swung wildly with what stage you picked, they loved small stages and hated everything else. They were low tier because they lost to fast characters and zoning characters and were combo food. Their one redeeming quality was the difficulty in finishing them off because of their weight.

The low-tier characters like Bowser need to be reworked so they can deal with projectile spam and fast characters. Ganon got a reflect to deal with projectiles and he can hover to help get back on stage and avoid tricky situations with faster characters. The rest of the Low-tier larger characters need to be reworked in a similar way to deal with characters like Samus and Fox. Link in 3.02 was nearly perfect and shouldn't have been changed to help characters that lack tactics against his fundamental playstyle.

I also agree that they should just give him back his recovery so he's not D.O.A. (Dead once Aerial).

 

[Heero Yuy]

You guys win. Link is bad in 3.5.

Not saying he's not viable however. My biggest problem with Link is that he had amazing punishes back in 3.0, and they took that away from him. While I agree his zoning and projectile game needed to be nerfed (because it was OP in 3.0), Link can't combo as hard as characters can combo him. And lets face it, Link is arguably the easiest character to combo due to his size and weight. His tether is also easily punishable now. I feel like he can still be untouchable in the right hands, with a much, much higher learning curve now.

I've changed my main but will continue to play him against certain characters like Zelda, Marth, and Kirby. I still have fun with Lonk but am enjoying other characters now.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I do like when the same move has several different properties depending on the timing and spacing of the attack. I think that in early development, when moves behaved the same no matter where and when you hit with it was when people complained the most about "auto-combos" and "forced playstyles". As a long time Melee main, I do appreciate a lot of these changes that were done to Link that make him a more complex character. I enjoy the n-air changes, the bomb changes, and the changes on f-air. Some reverted changes are kind of scary (in a, could be terrible for Link, kind of scary), like Link's throws. Some combinations of weight & fall speed are hard to convert anything off of grab. In some cases, it's hard to not get punished for using any of his throws where some characters will drift in after the throw at low percent and try to hit you.

Link's always had a weakness of being easily shield pressured and being big combo food in Melee and PM, but with the huge recovery nerfs, he is now easily edge guarded. The problem with Link's recovery is that all his recovery options are super punished by just grabbing the ledge, and there is little to nothing Link can do about it. His best bet is to try to protect the ledge via projectiles, but that means stopping characters from RAR wavedashing to the ledge, then refreshing ledge invincibility as necessary. You can't hit players as they grab the ledge! Recovery high is hardly considered a mix-up with how slowly his up-b travels combined with the insane landing lag he is.

What's the worst about this is that these weaknesses in recovery and on stage stack on top of each against Link. They practically lead into each other. Once shield pressured, it is easy to be forced to the ledge, and once at the edge, it is easy to be edge guarded. It's to the point where Link feels as helpless as Falcon when getting hit, except Link doesn't have the speed and power to just turn things back around.

The PM team has already tried having a Link with a very powerful zoning / mid-range game and it lead to giving big, slow characters an extremely difficult match-up to overcome, so buffing the heck out of his neutral game is not going to lead to a healthy meta. I mentioned it once briefly in this thread, but I think Link first and foremost needs a more in depth recovery kit. The PMDT basically took away his bomb jumping, which Link could use to recovery really high at the cost of taking lots of damage. The PMDT also took away the tether cancel at the ledge, which was too good combined with 3 tethers and his old tether speed. With only 1 tether and the slower real-in, how is tether cancelling such a broken mechanic?

Giving him a recovery mix-up helps mitigate the fact that he can be pushed to the ledge so easily by the fast characters and in general balances out the fact that Link isn't as explosive as many PM characters.

Agreed. I really miss teather cancel and bomb jump. Now if I happen to be further offstage, I just fall to my death because there's nothing Link can do except AGT, where you'd just get gimped either way. Those are probably my two most hated nerfs for the reasons you mentioned. I'll add them to my list along with maybe Link's throws as well.

 

[Deleted member]

You guys win. Link is bad in 3.5.

Not saying he's not viable however. My biggest problem with Link is that he had amazing punishes back in 3.0, and they took that away from him. While I agree his zoning and projectile game needed to be nerfed (because it was OP in 3.0), Link can't combo as hard as characters can combo him. And lets face it, Link is arguably the easiest character to combo due to his size and weight. His tether is also easily punishable now. I feel like he can still be untouchable in the right hands, with a much, much higher learning curve now.

that's the problem though, without a punishment game to optimize, and without a neutral game to optimize, there are no "right hands" because any given player is still forced to play the game.

 

[Thor]

that's the problem though, without a punishment game to optimize, and without a neutral game to optimize, there are no "right hands" because any given player is still forced to play the game.

This post doesn't make any sense. Every character has a neutral game. Melee Kirby and Brawl Ganondorf have neutral games. They are, compared to basically every other character in the game, trash, but they exist, and can be optimized. The same is true of the punish game.

Y'all sound like the freaking Smash 4 Kirby boards (only from what I've heard through the vine though). I came in this thread for frame data once, but this place just sounds stupid gloom and doom, geez.

P.S: I think bombs last 5 seconds before exploding (about), but I wasn't counting pull-time EmptySky00 so it might be like 6??? [My counting using in-game timers also tells me Smash 4 bombs last 3 seconds, so if that's way off it should tell something about how I timed the timers when I finally got to play PM.]

His MU against ROB is probably unwinnable though.

Given my prior disbelief (and KirbyKaze's) with your understanding of another MU, I don't see why I'd believe you, but... care to explain?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Given my prior disbelief (and KirbyKaze's) with your understanding of another MU, I don't see why I'd believe you, but... care to explain?

You mean that spat a year ago when KK insisted that (in Melee) the spacies are not utterly degenerate, do not center the meta around themselves, and do not totally dominate every matchup they're in? Whatever, dude. Given that you're opening up with the stated intent to disbelieve whatever I say, I really shouldn't bother.

In fairness, I probably overreacted back then.

Whatever, let's try anyway. Perhaps you can generously provide me the benefit of the doubt despite that I (gasp!) disagreed with a good player one time.

ROB hoses good characters that are dependent on projectiles (let's use Samus as an example here) due to:

1. The fact that he can outcamp anyone in the game except *possibly* Fox due to his ludicrous projectiles. For Samus specifically, both of ROB's projectiles outright beat missiles, and the gyro easily cancels out charge shot, in addition to being a holdable item (and can be glide tossed/thrown OoS, at a higher speed/longer distance than any other legal item in PM), maintaining a persistent hitbox on the stage.
2. Because ROB can outcamp even heavy camper characters like Link, ROB can basically always force you to approach and interact with him. Because of ROB's raw speed/range/disjoint, though, he turns out to be incredibly tough to interact with, particularly for characters (like Link and Samus) with mediocre or bad dash-dances, and especially if those same characters have tether grabs. ROB's main interaction weakness is his poor defense against shield pressure, but Samus and Link don't really have any to speak of.
3. His silly air mobility and large, fast, lag-free aerial disjoint means that positional advantage (read: the neutral game against most other characters at this point would be transitioning into a conversion for the opponent) is all but nullified against him because he can just boost around until there's an ideal time to safely boost fair onto your shield and reset to neutral. It's a very similar effect to 3.0 mewtwo teleport, MK dair, etcetera; though admittedly not as pronounced.
4. His physics make him incredibly tough to finish off for these kinds of (zoning) characters who don't typically have a lot of kill setups, and those tend to only work on FFs. Samus definitely has a hard time, and from what I'm hearing about Link's (lack of) kill moves, he's probably got it any harder.
5. The side B lets him get extremely hard punishes on any projectile that he happens to read. It's also very usable on reaction if he's spacing properly.
6. ROB always has at least one guaranteed kill setup: dthrow. Any series of close range interactions with him will inevitably lead to you getting grabbed at some point, unless you make a series of increasingly improbable hard reads. It's just much easier for ROB to do work at every range.
7. Good luck not getting gimped.

Those are probably the main points, but I'm sure there's lots more minute details that escape me at the moment.

OFC, this is speaking strictly from my experience playing Samus and Toon Link against ROB. Tink, as @Lunchables and @Oracle may confirm, beat ROB like a redheaded stepchild last patch, but now loses quite badly for very similar reasons to the ones outlined above. I have a very hard time believing that the situation would be any better for Link Prime. His entire M.O is zoning with high-commitment projectiles, which ROB simply hard counters. Even characters like Bowser and Ganon do better than [insert character that's almost strictly better than Bowser/Ganon here] because they can at least trade with ROB's aerials from most positions, and can kill him at low %'s. The zoner archetype gives up those abilities, and gets nothing in return in that particular MU.

edit: fixed formatting

 

[Thor]

You mean that spat a year ago when KK insisted that (in Melee) the spacies are not utterly degenerate, do not center the meta around themselves, and do not totally dominate every matchup they're in? Whatever, dude. Given that you're opening up with the stated intent to disbelieve whatever I say, I really shouldn't bother.

In fairness, I probably overreacted back then.

Whatever, let's try anyway. Perhaps you can generously provide me the benefit of the doubt despite that I (gasp!) disagreed with a good player one time.

ROB hoses good characters that are dependent on projectiles (let's use Samus as an example here) due to:

1. The fact that he can outcamp anyone in the game except *possibly* Fox due to his ludicrous projectiles. For Samus specifically, both of ROB's projectiles outright beat missiles, and the gyro easily cancels out charge shot, in addition to being a holdable item (and can be glide tossed/thrown OoS, at a higher speed/longer distance than any other legal item in PM), maintaining a persistent hitbox on the stage.
2. Because ROB can outcamp even heavy camper characters like Link, ROB can basically always force you to approach and interact with him. Because of ROB's raw speed/range/disjoint, though, he turns out to be incredibly tough to interact with, particularly for characters (like Link and Samus) with mediocre or bad dash-dances, and especially if those same characters have tether grabs. ROB's main interaction weakness is his poor defense against shield pressure, but Samus and Link don't really have any to speak of.
3. His silly air mobility and large, fast, lag-free aerial disjoint means that positional advantage (read: the neutral game against most other characters at this point would be transitioning into a conversion for the opponent) is all but nullified against him because he can just boost around until there's an ideal time to safely boost fair onto your shield and reset to neutral. It's a very similar effect to 3.0 mewtwo teleport, MK dair, etcetera; though admittedly not as pronounced.
4. His physics make him incredibly tough to finish off for these kinds of (zoning) characters who don't typically have a lot of kill setups, and those tend to only work on FFs. Samus definitely has a hard time, and from what I'm hearing about Link's (lack of) kill moves, he's probably got it any harder.
5. The side B lets him get extremely hard punishes on any projectile that he happens to read. It's also very usable on reaction if he's spacing properly.
6. ROB always has at least one guaranteed kill setup: dthrow. Any series of close range interactions with him will inevitably lead to you getting grabbed at some point, unless you make a series of increasingly improbable hard reads. It's just much easier for ROB to do work at every range.
7. Good luck not getting gimped.

Those are probably the main points, but I'm sure there's lots more minute details that escape me at the moment.

OFC, this is speaking strictly from my experience playing Samus and Toon Link against ROB. Tink, as @Lunchables and @Oracle may confirm, beat ROB like a redheaded stepchild last patch, but now loses quite badly for very similar reasons to the ones outlined above. I have a very hard time believing that the situation would be any better for Link Prime. His entire M.O is zoning with high-commitment projectiles, which ROB simply hard counters. Even characters like Bowser and Ganon do better than [insert character that's almost strictly better than Bowser/Ganon here] because they can at least trade with ROB's aerials from most positions, and can kill him at low %'s. The zoner archetype gives up those abilities, and gets nothing in return in that particular MU.

edit: fixed formatting

1. The fact you start with Samus makes you instantly lose credibility. Link destroys Samus in the camping game in Melee, and here, Link's tools are even better. Strike 1. Link's rang doesn't care about being clanked [it ate a hitbox and he can put it out again in a second - that's a perfectly well-used rang], and the hitbox is disabled if you clank it out as Link with his rang or bombs [or should be and was at last check]. If the Link is good at item control [and Link should be], he can also pick it up, which is another projectile ROB readied for him, who now can't use it. Strike 2.

2. You assume he'll outcamp Link - sorry, but no. Link spawns way more stuff faster than ROB, who has a gyro (Which Link can steal while still using the rang and bow), and a laser that charges up every what, 10 seconds? If they use the weak laser every 2 seconds or whatever, that's scratch damage relative to what Link does. Plus Link's rang has much better aiming and control of the stage than ROB's laser, and for ROB's gyro to stay grounded means he can't be using it, but Link can be putting bombs out and also dropping them to briefly control the stage - ROB gets only one gyro though. Strike 3. You cite a disjoint? Link has the master sword, a decent fair, and an insane nair - plus the rang will definitely help him get in, and dtilt is no slouch at poking either. Link's shield pressure comes from mixups with bombs bouncing on shield and keeping the rang in awkward positions for the opponent - he can do enough to ROB, and his jab outranges ROB's stuff. Strike 4.

3. He can't possibly be boosting around above Link's head, or he'll eat uairs, and that's a bad look for every single character in the game. If ROB is boosting around, he can't be doing all that much with the gyro either - yeah he has it, but if he's looking to throw it, he's one bad throw from Link holding the gyro and he's down a few boosts - that means landing which means Link can make things ugly quick. Boost fair on shield is also looking to get OoS something from Link, be it nair, bair, or even a pre-emptive dair (risky but terrifying for ROB nonetheless). And that's not even close to what Mewtwo did, because you can see him the whole time and are spacing around it, whereas having to space around Mewtwo's midrange and his close range was more difficult. Strike 5.

4. ROB's fat but doesn't fall fast - uair and dair work just fine. Link has to setup into them or make a read, but Link has a kill move comparable to Fox usmash to send this tin can flying. Dsmash works reasonably well on platforms as well, and if he's jetting around as much as you claim, gimping is DEFINITELY not out of the question since we can hit him off and harass him from afar and then nair him back out. Samus doesn't have nearly the vertical KO options we do - the only one being usmash in ice mode - if I could I'd tag ESAM and ask him about his opinion but he has that untaggable name so I won't even try. Either way, Strike 6.

5. Does it auto-catch things or something? That still wouldn't matter with the rang, but one thing a good Link should be doing is putting the rang out as a bait - spacing so they look punishable but aren't - then they can counterattack and have the rang coming back as support. This is where trickery comes in. I don't fully understand what this read he's supposed to make even is, unless you're referring to the reflection hitbox on grounded side+B, at which point, how is he jetting through the air? Also Link's shield can just block that if Link stands still (something I do frequently if I think they're looking to use a reflector). Strike 7.

6. Link has a dthrow that does the same thing. And getting grabbed is never a foregone conclusion XD. Plus Link actually has the tools to escape that setup, namely the rang on its way back and bombs that go off and disrupt combos. Meaning Link is actually better protected than most from this. That also why Link is usually playing a hit-and-run game - choose your moments, hit hard once or twice, and either follow up or get away [which is easier than people seem to think if you're not fighting Fox/Falcon/Sonic]]. Strike 8.

7. I don't see anything terribly special ROB can do, other than intercept the bomb jump with laser/gyro, which is an issue in other MUs... spacing Link's recovery is an issue in every MU, but if he uses boosts that much, ROB is also going to have a fun time not getting gimped by Link. And I don't think ROB is terribly good at gimping Link to be honest (not Samus bad, but he's not Link good or Marth with perfect dtilts good). Strike 9.

Considering you managed to not only strike out, but also strike out your side for the entire inning, maybe you should retire until you start addressing the Link-ROB MU as it is, and not as you think it should be based on Samus-ROB (should not even be compared except for weight and tether gimping explanations, neither of which were present) and some faulty assumptions about camping and the CQC game (I'm of the opinion that Link's rang is vastly better than TL's, so there's another flaw).

You also don't zone in every MU as Link - against Captain Falcon, for instance, you can try, but it's much more efficient to play a very gutsy CQC game where you use the rang to stuff some approach angles and snuff him out with jabs and nair while using uairs and utilts to stop stomps and then go to town. I find against a high-pressure Falcon, it's better to just not pull bombs on small stages right away, but try to keep rang out - then once I get a good hit in, get a few extra hits, launch with uair or dair, then pull the bomb and get ready to juggle and, if I fail, go to neutral with one [precious] bomb.

P.S: Was specifically referencing your (clearly objectionable, as countless others took issue with them) views on the Fox-Puff MU specifically.

Also the spacies don't dominate Marth, and Falco doesn't dominate Peach or Samus [while I disagree with them, several think Peach and/or Samus wins that MU...I think it's even but eh] - please.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I was going to write a detailed response until I noticed that you've elected to, instead of responding appropriately, persist with your personal attacks. I'm not terribly invested in the ROB vs Link matchup, and have better things to do with my time than be harassed for an opinion which you solicited in the first place.

Try again when you can converse like an adult.

 

[Hylian]

Strike 1. Link's rang doesn't care about being clanked [it ate a hitbox and he can put it out again in a second - that's a perfectly well-used rang

Err..that isn't how rang works in 3.5? Clanking Links rang is horrible for Link, I don't think you've played him or against him if you think he can put another one out in a second. In 3.5 the rang loses it's hitbox, doesn't dissapear, has hitlag, and moves slower back to link after it clanks something.

 

[Thor]

Err..that isn't how rang works in 3.5? Clanking Links rang is horrible for Link, I don't think you've played him or against him if you think he can put another one out in a second. In 3.5 the rang loses it's hitbox, doesn't dissapear, has hitlag, and moves slower back to link after it clanks something.

But you're not getting hit by the thing. If you're eating hitboxes with rang, you aren't eating those hitboxes yourself.

I wasn't being fully literal when I said he can put it back out 1 second (60 frames) later, but it's really not that long to put another one out - sure you have to wait but if you've got the time to put it out, let it clank, and still have space to safely put another one out right away but can't, you can probably get a bomb out, or else you can't put it out again anyway. Although if you clank something almost directly in your face the rang is back in your hand almost immediately so you can put it out again fairly quickly [that stupid catching animation if you aren't doing anything sucks though, and is a good way of saying "Smack me."].

I was going to write a detailed response until I noticed that you've elected to, instead of responding appropriately, persist with your personal attacks. I'm not terribly invested in the ROB vs Link matchup, and have better things to do with my time than be harassed for an opinion which you solicited in the first place.

Try again when you can converse like an adult.

Translation: I was going to write a response until I realized A) I'm wrong and used a bunch of terrible examples and B) you've correctly pointed out this.

I'll come back when you pretend I know what I'm talking about.

Slightly more seriously, where the heck did I personally attack you? I said you lost credibility (aka ethos) when you tried to state that because Samus and Link both have projectiles, they can be grouped together. Then I realized I had about 9 points so I made a baseball reference because I felt like it. I stated that if you're going to make faulty comparisons, your discussion is invalid, and given your use of them throughout, you should probably not make sweeping claims without better arguments.

But instead you have to get offended and refuse to say anything because you can't understand the difference between an attack on an argument as a whole and an attack on the person [for the record, this constitutes an attack on your understanding of the situation - if I were attacking you as a person (a personal attack) I would call you dumb or stupid or whatever, but instead I said you don't know what you're talking about in the Link-ROB MU, which is less sweeping because it means I disagree with your opinion here, not claim you are unintelligent in general (and thus would state you are wrong everywhere - but did I do that? Nope - unless you misinterpreted the retire thing, which was intended as a local, not global claim of your MU descriptions)].

 

[Hylian]

But you're not getting hit by the thing. If you're eating hitboxes with rang, you aren't eating those hitboxes yourself.

I wasn't being fully literal when I said he can put it back out 1 second (60 frames) later, but it's really not that long to put another one out - sure you have to wait but if you've got the time to put it out, let it clank, and still have space to safely put another one out right away but can't, you can probably get a bomb out, or else you can't put it out again anyway. Although if you clank something almost directly in your face the rang is back in your hand almost immediately so you can put it out again fairly quickly [that stupid catching animation if you aren't doing anything sucks though, and is a good way of saying "Smack me."].

You have a very weird way of thinking haha. You don't throw rang to intercept hitboxes..people put out hitboxes to intercept rang, and then approach you during it's hitlag/slow return. For example you throw rang at a marth short hopping at you and he shffl fairs it. He then dashes toward you without having to worry about the return hitbox of rang. If you're trying to snipe projectiles with rang then I'm not sure you're playing Link very well heh.