3.5 Link Discussion

[Beorn]

if link doesn't suck, who does?

This. though I would say that Olimar and maybe Bowers are the other obviously not very good characters. I would not be able to tell you that anyone else qualifies as not good in 3.5. Which is quite an achievement. The difference between the best (fox, shiek, marth, mario, ect) and the next best (Zelda, Ness, D3, Jiggz ect) is pretty sharp, but Olimar, link and maybe bowser are just a step below the rest.

 

[Deleted member]

actually i think bowser is good and quite underrated atm. i pretty much relegate my suck tier to link and olimar, yeah

 

[Beorn]

actually i think bowser is good and quite underrated atm. i pretty much relegate my suck tier to link and olimar, yeah

I don't have the match up experience to say one way or the other about Bowser. So I wasn't going to talk out of my ass about something I don't know much about. Olimar, and Link on the other hand are bad, yeah.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Boozer's always been underrated...

 

[EmptySky00]

Bowser's threatening as hell. He's surprisingly good. I always expect him to be free but I actually have to try lol.

 

[BigHairyFart]

, , and maybe , though I'm sure some will take offense to that lol. I'll be headed to their threads for some friendly advice.

Those are all solid choices. Toon Link is probably a good start because his fundamentals are similar. Marth and Ganon are stark contrasts to Link in either direction, which can be either good or bad depending on your playstyle. Ike feels sort of similar to Link, because both are fast and slow at the same time. I don't know how to explain it. Overall, I'd say Marth has the lowest learning curve and highest viability for taking on multiple characters' archetypes.

 

[EmptySky00]

I hear a lot of Lunk mains have a bad Marth secondary, so you should go with that!

Or just play Fox and win more.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Those are all solid choices. Toon Link is probably a good start because his fundamentals are similar. Marth and Ganon are stark contrasts to Link in either direction, which can be either good or bad depending on your playstyle. Ike feels sort of similar to Link, because both are fast and slow at the same time. I don't know how to explain it. Overall, I'd say Marth has the lowest learning curve and highest viability for taking on multiple characters' archetypes.

I've taken some tips over from the Marth boards into consideration and practiced with bots for a few hours (mostly lvl 9 Fox) today. You're right about the easier learning curve. I feel like I'm pretty decent with him now and he's probably my best secondary for the time being. I even managed to pull off a few ken combos, surprisingly. As for my playstyle, I have a more aggressive, read-oriented one. I switch a lot between being mobile and simply walking around to find openings/potential reads, or sometimes a mix of both.

I'm actually least interested in Tink, though I'd still probably play him every now and then. He seems fun. And I see what you mean with Ike. I noticed that as well and I like him very much for that reason. I'm pretty interested in Ganon with the new tools he's gotten, but more so because I'm a Zelda fan and I find that he suits me a lot better than the other Zelda reps, besides Link of course lol.
So as it stands right now, >>>.

I hear a lot of Lunk mains have a bad Marth secondary, so you should go with that!

Or just play Fox and win more.

Nope, spacies can smd.

 

[EmptySky00]

Agreed. Gotta stick with the **** sword characters. Wave it around all day. I like when you're rolling your face on the controller with Marth so he combos by waving his glow stick around like a tard and it looks really gay.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Agreed. Gotta stick with the **** sword characters. Wave it around all day. I like when you're rolling your face on the controller with Marth so he combos by waving his glow stick around like a tard and it looks really gay.

Isn't Marth one of your secondaries as well?

 

[EmptySky00]

He sure is. That's why it's gay. I only play gay characters like Lunk. If I want to be manly I can play Ike though. He ****s so hard.

 

[DarkDeity15]

He sure is. That's why it's gay. I only play gay characters like Lunk. If I want to be manly I can play Ike though. He ****s so hard.

So are you saying you're gay? Alrighty then. But yeah, Ike is definitely the manliest swordsman in smash. He fights for his friends and not assbandits.

 

[EmptySky00]

Not at all, just that I gravitate towards gay characters because it's funny. Tennis elbow Lunk is soooo good.


Blame Umbreon for this mode of expression. I'm just talking like him at this point because I'm an assbandit and it's funny. <_<

It's funny.

Funny.

Edit:
Definition of assbandit in English:
noun
vulgar slang
1A male homosexual sodomite or pederast.
2An eager seducer of young women.


It does exist.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Not at all, just that I gravitate towards gay characters because it's funny. Tennis elbow Lunk is soooo good.


Blame Umbreon for this mode of expression. I'm just talking like him at this point because I'm an assbandit and it's funny. <_<

It's funny.

Funny.

Edit:
Definition of assbandit in English:
noun
vulgar slang
1A male homosexual sodomite or pederast.
2An eager seducer of young women.


It does exist.

Seems legit. I actually main Marth with a baseball bat and gothic makeup instead of a sword. Makes regular Marth look trash tier.

 

[EmptySky00]

That sounds absolutely busted... and potentially a bad MU for Fox. PMDT plz nerf, his hierarchy is being threatened.

 

[DarkDeity15]

That sounds absolutely busted... and potentially a bad MU for Fox. PMDT plz nerf, his hierarchy is being threatened.

Yeah man. There's no way someone in the PMDT would allow Fox to have a bad MU. That's just dumb. And you thought Gothic Baseball Bat Marth was too stronk? Just wait until you see Naked Peach. SSS broken tier right there. Infinite shine> nosebleed should NOT be a thing.

 

[EmptySky00]

My God. The meta that I just envisioned. Chaos. Destruction.

And...

Omg...


No, nvm that's just Lunk throwing boomerang again.

 

[DarkDeity15]

My God. The meta that I just envisioned. Chaos. Destruction.

And...

Omg...


No, nvm that's just Lunk throwing boomerang again.

Wow, there must be some serious hallucinogens in that thing. Must be one of Lunk's mindgames. A pretty sweet one at that.

 

[Deleted member]

we gonna need a full navy deck crew to mop up this circlejerk

edit- marth is also my secondary lmao

 

[EmptySky00]

You don't play Lunk so you don't count. And when you do play him it's hideous. It's like watching you go in dry into someone's eye socket.

Gtfo you eeveelution **** cannon.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm worried about his thread...

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm worried about his thread...

See that, Umbreon? He thinks it's your thread now. You see what you've done?

YOU SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE?! Brb I'm going to go eagerly seduce young women.

 

[Captain Zack]

so i don't really main link, but i love playing as him. i don't really see how he get severely nerfed, he's still good and has his bread and butter. he's still fast n stuff, his boomerang is still godlike. the only problem is the bombs and tether, that's really it~

 

[EmptySky00]

so i don't really main link, but i love playing as him. i don't really see how he get severely nerfed, he's still good and has his bread and butter. he's still fast n stuff, his boomerang is still godlike. the only problem is the bombs and tether, that's really it~

Link is actually sluggish and not fast at all. I don't know where people get that. Oh, probably from watching me What the nerfs did was make his mid-range harassment game severely unthreatening. How the flowchart goes is that he throws ****, then he throws more ****, then he throws even more ****, then the opponent gets hit and

surprise, you're still in neutral because he can't convert off of it. Then his close range options for fending off the opponent are relatively sub-par. OoS options are bad. Movement is pretty poor. His recovery is super exploitable and gimpable (which I don't think his recovery should be buffed since it's an aspect of the character). His grab game is utterly TERRIBLE. 90 frames for whiff iirc? or 70ish. 90 might be his spin attack. Anyway, his grab is slow, limiting his grab game severely and it's also really risky. Then when you get a grab, his grab conversions also suck. Boomerang isn't Godlike anymore, which I'm fine with I guess, but it was definitely overnerfed. Just an angle change and the 20 frame cooldown would have been fine. Nair hits like wet bread now too, which doesn't really make him suck but I feel like complaining about it since it was another stupid change. Zair is now really sub-par due to the 50% increase in landing lag and the inconsistency of the launching hitbox.

Oh, Link also folds to crouch cancel and has no really effective ways to combat it. He can't put on enough damage from pure projectiles to be able to break it and when he does get CC'd and hit, he becomes combo weight the character and gets ****ed viciously.


He's not unplayable. He can win I guess. He's just blatantly not good and he's not threatening anymore. And he has ****ing AWFUL matchups. Jesus Christ I thought sheik was bad before. Now I literally feel like it's impossible. Damn it, Umbreon.

 

[Deleted member]

no sheik is actually impossible thats not just you vs me

 

[EmptySky00]

The skill gap is so severe though lol. That has to be part of it. If I were on equal footing in terms of skill I'd probably maybe be able to win sometimes.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

dude... some of you guys are so toxic, Link is still crazy viable, and the whole thing about Links whining about Sheik, and Sheiks underestimating Link, is a joke. I happen to be lucky because my brother is one of the best Sheiks in SoCal and we are even in tournament, while link may be somewhere near the bottom of 3.5's tier list you have to remember how balanced this version is, and when we discuss the top tiers like Fox, Sheik, Falco, they're all still handle-able, from the lower spectrum like, Link, Pit, and Ike.

 

[Roddy]

^That is true, I didn't know that Link was near the bottom, isn't it pretty soon to tell in which place should he go? I find Link way more viable than a lot of character in the roster, I'm pretty sure this is the most balanced version of PM so far.

But I still think they overnerfed link just for a bit, in my opinion link didn't need more zair landing lag and the ending lag on the utilt and dash attack =/

Overall he is still good!

 

[Tristan's Rule]

Yeah adding on to the Dash Attack nerf, the 1 degree angle ****s me up lol it's a little harder to juggle.
I think they should keep the good things from melee the same and build from there.
R.I.P. Melee Nair (39 active frames and that 32 iASA)

 

[Heero Yuy]

Link is low-mid tier and I'm sorry but Sheik is his worst matchup in 3.5...arguably. Also Ike is not bottom tier in this patch - he feels so much smoother and better than in 3.02. He's far from being bad.

While I do think 3.5 Link is the worst Link in any of the P:M patches, I will agree that Link still is viable, but with a much, much higher learning curve than before. That's been the nature of P:M for a while, where even low-tier heroes like GnW and ROB could dominate in 3.0.

 

[EmptySky00]

dude... some of you guys are so toxic, Link is still crazy viable, and the whole thing about Links whining about Sheik, and Sheiks underestimating Link, is a joke. I happen to be lucky because my brother is one of the best Sheiks in SoCal and we are even in tournament, while link may be somewhere near the bottom of 3.5's tier list you have to remember how balanced this version is, and when we discuss the top tiers like Fox, Sheik, Falco, they're all still handle-able, from the lower spectrum like, Link, Pit, and Ike.

Doesn't change the fact that he was overnerfed. And I didn't say he's unviable. I said he can still win he's just blatantly not good. Goodness is relative and in relation to good characters he's not there.

I play against one of the best sheiks in the world if not the best. If your brother is losing to Link he's doing something wrong. As much as I'm not necessarily for blatant ******** about one's character for no reason (even though it seems that I gravitate towards that I honestly don't try to), I'm also against blind optimism just to create an air of superiority. I hate that **** so much. I prefer people be rational and honest. Link isn't that good atm. He can still be played and he can still win, but he's gimped.

^That is true, I didn't know that Link was near the bottom, isn't it pretty soon to tell in which place should he go? I find Link way more viable than a lot of character in the roster, I'm pretty sure this is the most balanced version of PM so far.

But I still think they overnerfed link just for a bit, in my opinion link didn't need more zair landing lag and the ending lag on the utilt and dash attack =/

Overall he is still good!

No, it isn't too soon. Link has had the same general toolset for forever. It's not like this character is absolutely new. It's not like you can't look at a character's general properties and get a general idea of how good they are. No one's going to find revolutionary Link tech that's going to make him God. I agree with Zair and utilt and dash attack I guess.

Overall he is not that good. Not irredeemable, but not good. Umbreon gave reasoning on that a few pages back if you care for an explanation. Blind optimism. He's just too exploitable when you play against him and his game isn't very threatening in comparison to other characters.


I don't know why optimism irritates me so damn much. Maybe it's when people just blatantly contradict me with nothing but optimistic statements and no real reasoning. Something about it comes off as so self-righteous.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

god dude, why the **** are you so negative, just learn the M/U's and get good other wise stop talking **** on the character, he's not Melee Link bad and if he's better than he was in that he can easily pull it off in Project M

 

[EmptySky00]

god dude, why the **** are you so negative, just learn the M/U's and get good other wise stop talking **** on the character, he's not Melee Link bad and if he's better than he was in that he can easily pull it off in Project M

I am good bro. And I've been playing the goddamn matchup nonstop for about 7 months now so don't act like I'm just ******** out and not attempting to figure the **** out. Way to make assumptions about player skill with absolutely no backing. I'm not negative I'm just honest. If Sheik loses to Link it's because the Sheik did **** wrong. I also wasn't talking **** on the character, I'm giving an honest evaluation instead of stupid unbacked optimistic generalities which never cease to piss me off.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

are you legit getting mad on forums? all the while i'm just conversing with you, calm your **** man, and i've been playing this sheik and other sheik's for 1 year to 2 year now, i know the M/U and it is dealable if you are good enough and understand what sheik is weak against and why, i've not only faced my brother's sheik but Okami's and we go even, if he's not one of the best sheiks in the world idk who the **** is

 

[EmptySky00]

are you legit getting mad on forums? all the while i'm just conversing with you, calm your **** man, and i've been playing this sheik and other sheik's for 1 year to 2 year now, i know the M/U and it is dealable if you are good enough and understand what sheik is weak against and why, i've not only faced my brother's sheik but Okami's and we go even, if he's not one of the best sheiks in the world idk who the **** is

I'm not getting mad actually you're the one who started with your aggressive tone for no damn reason and I'm just mirroring you because you're annoying me lawl. Annoyed and mad are different. A fly annoys me. Doesn't mean I'm going to break a window over it.

And you would be VERY hard-pressed to find a matchup that's actually literally impossible. Especially in this game. Saying essentially "it can be done, therefore it's not bad" is the very definition of downplaying. I never said it was impossible, Umbreon said that. I said it feels impossible, which is a statement of hyperbole.

 

[Tristan's Rule]

okay man :I

 

[EmptySky00]

I don't post here for popularity. I just do it because it's something to occupy my time.

It should be worth noting that the MU is also pretty dismal in Melee. Yes, Link is better generally now, but not in any specific way that would actually make the inherent disadvantage significantly less overbearing. His moves just suck less now, which admittedly is a pretty good thing to have. But he's the same character and he loses to the same general ****. Bad MU's can be won, but they're still bad regardless of whether or not you win. So whatever. And that's not to say I think he's bad because he has bad MU's. That would be stupid. The Sheik thing and the Link is bad thing are separate.

And just because I think Link isn't that good compared to most of the cast doesn't mean I'm not going to rock the **** out of this character. I just don't want next patch to come along and have random people's stupid optimism create the illusion that he's perfectly fine when a lot of his nerfs were completely unjustified.

I want Melee Nair back since we're reverting **** like bomb throw distance for the sake of matching Melee. Let's just revert everything while we're at it.

If you want to explain to me the wonderful secret of the Sheik MU then feel free to fire away. <_<

 

[Tristan's Rule]

dang, anyone else more educated and not coming from some baseless aggression want to have a normal talk about link on this link discussion thread?

 

[Heero Yuy]

You could always, y'know...change mains if you're so dissatisfied with this character.

 

[EmptySky00]

Lol, go **** yourself. Seriously. There was no baseless aggression in that and you're legitimately trying to perpetuate a problem by calling me uneducated now.