3.5 Link Discussion

[Beorn]

No.

First of all, the disjoint not matching the full length of the sword isn't a new thing:

Second, hitbox interpolation when falling means you're covering that space anyways. To see what I'm talking about, trigger interpolation mode on (Enter in the hitbox view command again), and take another look.

I doubt you can actually find a single example of UAir looking like it should hit from below when it does not. Not only do you need to factor in the interpolation, but the move still massively disjointed (And from below, you're not going to get anybody who can outrange it besides Dedede).

I'm not trying to get heated about this Shadic.You know I love this link and what has been done to him but..

Yes, It is ridiculous. I know that melee had a lot of this going on especially with the ice climbers. That doesn't make this any less ridiculous, considering almost all of it was fixed to make since. You and I well know that link had much more of this bull **** in melee and in brawl before you guys fix it. Hell half of his sword was missing hitbubbles one second hit of fsmash.

Interpolation doesn't take effect until link starts moving downward. This means that a uair activated at the apex of his jump will miss it's target if the tip of his sword uncovered by hitbubbles meets their hurtbubbles.

Dedede, marth, roy, toonlink and Ike all have massively disjointed moves as well but this was never a problem for them. Interpolation or not.

I will post a shot of uair's tip going through an opponent after I get back from work later today.

 

[Thor]

I'm not trying to get heated about this Shadic.You know I love this link and what has been done to him but..

Yes, It is ridiculous. I know that melee had a lot of this going on especially with the ice climbers. That doesn't make this any less ridiculous, considering almost all of it was fixed to make since. You and I well know that link had much more of this bull **** in melee and in brawl before you guys fix it. Hell half of his sword was missing hitbubbles one second hit of fsmash.

Interpolation doesn't take effect until link starts moving downward. This means that a uair activated at the apex of his jump will miss it's target if the tip of his sword uncovered by hitbubbles meets their hurtbubbles.

Dedede, marth, roy, toonlink and Ike all have massively disjointed moves as well but this was never a problem for them. Interpolation or not.

I will post a shot of uair's tip going through an opponent after I get back from work later today.

This happened to me once actually.

However, it was a Peach float thing - in pretty much every other situation, most people seem to just fall onto my sword (lucky me!) so it's usually a non-issue.

Would it really be so hard to just stick a super tiny hitbubble on the very tip of his sword? I'm not talking increase the disjoint to anything that would visibly look weird, I just mean insert a REAL tiny one right inside the tip (inscribed in the triangle that is the tip of his sword). This wouldn't actually notably buff Link's uair (how many people actually even know the sword isn't coated fully in hitbubbles already? I seriously doubt people would start johning or complaining that Link's uair is too good because the visuals match the range) but it would please at least some Link mains and make the move aesthetically accurate (since if you get stabbed by the sword, well, you got stabbed by the sword).

If there's a "You didn't really get stabbed by it" sort of reasoning, well... flub hitbox [that only happens if you don't connect other parts of the sword] would still be nice? After all, you WERE poked by the master sword...

Again, I just mean something that is inscribed in the sword's tip (think of the tip as a triangle and put a circle inside it), not circumscribing the tip or anything big. It would be appreciated, and if that breaks Link, well, then I guess Link is literally perfect (and then you just remove it in a balance patch in a month or two anyway).

 

[CrimsonSun]

Quick question. Is there any particular direction I need to di Link's d-throw? It seems that an up-b is pretty much guaranteed to connect after every d-throw. I'm just wondering if there is anything I can do about it besides not getting grabbed.

 

[Fortress]

Quick question. Is there any particular direction I need to di Link's d-throw? It seems that an up-b is pretty much guaranteed to connect after every d-throw. I'm just wondering if there is anything I can do about it besides not getting grabbed.

If you're running into dThrow > uB, depending on the character you are and the percentage you're at, it's going to vary, but for the most part I'd stick to DI'ing down+away. If dThrow > uB is guaranteed at certain percents on your character, plan ahead for that and just prepare for a ground tech off of the combo.

Also, on the topic of Link's uAir hitboxes, it's fine. Your goal with uAir shouldn't be to whip it out and hope your opponent lands on it since it's such a slow/weak move after it initially comes out, but you should be placing it such that you hit your opponent just as it's coming out, when you know it's guaranteed to hit, mitigating the risk that the attack carries in loss of mobility. You should be going for the strong spacing to begin with, and try to have Link's head be somewhat inside of the opponent before using it for the best results.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Falcon's also gonna be a huge problem to Link in 3.5. To say the least, Link's long-range spacing tools in 3.0 are what made the matchup with Falcon fairly even. Now that those options were nerfed, you're gonna have to rely on the sword much more in 3.5. Probably no worse than 65-35 Falcon's favor. Should be around the same difficulty as Sheik.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Hi, I just try out PM 3.5...
And I'm not so happy about it ^_^ But I think it just needs some work !
However, am i the only one that find his DACUS more difficult to perform now ? i can't do it consistenly when i could during 3.0...

And I find hard to juggle with characters now, upTilt is not that OP anymore, and every char can get out of it pretty quickly...
The only reliable combo I found is of course DonwThrow -> upB

Anyway, I think some MU are going to be really hard for us now !

 

[Fortress]

DACUS is slightly harder to perform with a 1-frame difference. You just have to do it a little faster than you used to. Still carries the same utility, so use it where you normally would. As for juggles, you're really going to have to work for them in 3.5. Because of the goals of the build, one of the (good) side effects is that you're going to have to think about each move you use, every time, and have a reason for why you used it.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Well don't get me wrong, I really prfer to play a "smart" char, and i will work this new Link, but ... I don't know I played a friend with his new Ike... And oh man that was hard... i would wrecked him before 3.5 and now... i have a hard time landing a single hit, and space a char like him, with a sword this big... I couldn't do it ! (I just played him 1 or 2 hours so we'll see how it goes in a long run !)

I was wondering, with the change of the Nair, can we still get out of pressure with SH Nair L cancel ? Since the major problem for Link is when he is under pressure...

Between an Ike and a Mario, I think I'm going to have a hard time before I can really handle this Link properly !

 

[Third]

How do you guys bomb jump now? I have a hard time doing it consistently, but then again, I've only been playing 3.5 for a few hours now. I've tried AGTing, Melee way, and experimented with some other ways, and they don't seem to be consistent. Anyone have any advice for a consistent bomb jump? Oh, and this was in training mode so my Up B wasn't staled.

 

[Mi4Slayer]

I still don't get the Utilt changes tho, it really rubbing me the wrong way

 

[InfinityCollision]

Dedede, marth, roy, toonlink and Ike all have massively disjointed moves as well but this was never a problem for them. Interpolation or not.

Well...

 

[Beorn]

Well...

When I say "this" I'm referring to the negative disjoint on links sword. Marth does not have negative disjoint aside from his dair (which is a thing for many chacacters). Marths problem has to do with the way hitbubbles move, as magus cleared up in that very thread. To add to this, some of these characters have hitbubbles going past there weapons on a few moves. Toon links bair comes to mind without to much thought.

 

[666blaziken]

In all honesty, I am very happy and excited about the link nerfs. I used to main him in 2.6 but then when 3.0 came out, everyone complained about link being op, and after playing against some of the spammy boomarang and easily recovering links, I agreed and stopped using him to avoid getting spoiled. Now I can use him without all the salt.

 

[EmptySky00]

Link was not OP in the 3.0 environment. If you compare him to the characters that were God, there's a very large disparity. Link was a product of the design philosophy of the time. That Link would not fit in this new world order, and that's probably universally understood. He was perfectly manageable by any player who was worth their salt. His recovery was good, but it wasn't broken. Rang was good, but it wasn't' *THAT* good. It was just too automatic, which they wanted to move away from.

Bomb throw distance was hit for no reason however. I really hope that gets reverted, at least to some extent. It's 40 frames to pull. If you're getting camped from across the stage by bombs, there's something wrong with you, not the bombs.

Also, has anyone done any experimentation with down throw? The Empty Combo (dthrow dair) works at later percents. The throw seems to not be easily DI'd at the very least. Dthrow up B works, but I don't think it's that great as they can DI towards the side that won't get them killed and live to like 140-150. Though it does put them offstage and against Link's good edgeguarding game. General combos out of it have me stumped.
Probably the most reliable reset that I've found is Dthrow - turn around (otherwise you whiff) - Dsmash.

I've probably started using Uthrow - Uair more at really early percents though. Uair is ****ing fantastic still.

 

[Shadic]

The Empty Combo (dthrow dair) works at later percents.

You don't get to name a 2-hit combo after yourself, especially if it has existed since Melee.

Bombs are fine. They match his throw distance in Melee - Which a lot of people thought he should feel more like. And they were a good projectile in that game as well.

 

[EmptySky00]

You don't get to name a 2-hit combo after yourself, especially if it has existed since Melee.

Bombs are fine. They match his throw distance in Melee - Which a lot of people thought he should feel more like. And they were a good projectile in that game as well.

I can name anything anything I want, actually. I never mandated that anyone else call it that, so I don't see why it matters. And it's a joke amongst my group and that's what I refer to it as, so I honestly don't give a flying **** if anyone gets offended hence why I continue to refer to it as that lawl.
At least I use a parenthetical to denote what it means rather than leaving you to guess as if it's an official name.


That's such an arbitrary reason. There's no actual logic in that. Overall it was a nerf for the sake of nerfs just to revert it to a past state with no reasoning aside from that. Seems really stupid to me. That **** is like throwing pillows now.

 

[GarmWyrda]

It's still early to tell, but I do have difficulties to find how to use a bomb properly anymore... It just... won't connect, I can't really space opponents out, it doesn't go far enough...
And since it does not, and the boomerang doesn't go really far anymore (? not sure of that, but i g ot this feeling that it's slower AND go less far), and the arrows are... well arrows are usefull in some very special situation I think... Well I have some huge trouble to pressure my opponent and find a way through their defenses...

For now I rely almost entirely on a grab... And I don't think that's a good thing, since it's very easily punishable ... (I usually use DACUS for some opponents who jump too much and are predictable with their jumps, but I'm still not consistent enough yet with the new timing DACUS... Need to train a lot to come back to compete with some friends... That's sad they don't have to do so themselves ^_^ )

Happily, we got that motherefu*kin ocarina, and I found it so awesome *_* (no joke !)

 

[Pug]

Can't wait to take him for a whirl tonight.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are BKB and KBG? I'm not hip to all the technical lingo. I've never examined Smash data on the logic level before and as a game programmer especially I'd like to understand it better.

Further to that, it would be totally sweet if this forum had that plugin where recognised words linked to a glossary definition that pops up when you hover over the word.

EDIT: Really looking forward to trying out the Ocarina. You can spot Zelda fans because they'll actually know songs from the games to play. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever have time to play much in actual games =P

 

[Fortress]

Link was not OP in the 3.0 environment.

You would think so, but you'd be wrong.

The Empty Combo (dthrow dair)

I can name anything anything I want, actually. I never mandated that anyone else call it that, so I don't see why it matters.

You didn't invent this. You didn't do this first. You didn't do this first in tourney. It is not named after you.

"So, why was the Fortress Fumble with the Ice Climbers removed in Project M? The thing where you can just grab them forever? I used to do it all of the time, and it was really good at tournaments, and I saw a couple of other players doing it every now and again (some ChooChoo guy?), so I just wanted to know why it was removed in PM. The Fortress Fumble that is, the thing I do."

 

[Heero Yuy]

3.5 is completely different from 3.0. Link wasn't the only character nerfed. Link DID have some OP options and were replaced with fairer ones. Link's bombs were already pretty good in Melee and now they're back. You have the right to name Dthrow --> Dair after yourself to a certain degree, but to be completely fair it's best to just keep that inside joke amongst your group since that combo has been founded way before you. 3.5 Link plays almost nothing like 3.0 Link in terms of general playstyle.

Just get over it dude...

 

[jtm94]

In a world where bombs are slower than turnips....
Bombs are a lot worse now, Link is REALLY bad in melee... hmmm
The biggest thing that rubs me the wrong way is that the new bombs make bomb jumping a pain to do and not even that rewarding. I would be more willing to accept if the UpB properly detonated the bomb instead of tossing it away.

 

[Fortress]

In a world where bombs are slower than turnips....
Bombs are a lot worse now, Link is REALLY bad in melee... hmmm
The biggest thing that rubs me the wrong way is that the new bombs make bomb jumping a pain to do and not even that rewarding. I would be more willing to accept if the UpB properly detonated the bomb instead of tossing it away.

Bombs travelling more slowly is great for a lot of reasons. Tech involving them (like the Hylian Instant) is easier to perform, the things don't fly too far away making Bomb Jumping easier, and bombs now have much better KB on hit. They're great. Melee Link had fantastic bombs, and these are Melee+ Bombs, which is also great. Bomb Jumping is still very much possible (even without AGT now), so you'll just have to lab it up and learn it.

The bomb changes were the ones I disliked, too, but after playing 3.5 for a few days now all I can say is that I find just as much utility with them as I did before.

 

[EmptySky00]

3.5 is completely different from 3.0. Link wasn't the only character nerfed. Link DID have some OP options and were replaced with fairer ones. Link's bombs were already pretty good in Melee and now they're back. You have the right to name Dthrow --> Dair after yourself to a certain degree, but to be completely fair it's best to just keep that inside joke amongst your group since that combo has been founded way before you. 3.5 Link plays almost nothing like 3.0 Link in terms of general playstyle.

Just get over it dude...

Just get over it?

Yup let's all just blindly accept whatever they hand us without questioning it. There's no reason to revert something just for the sake of doing so. You're missing the point, obviously. This is a change that directly affects the effective range of a move that has a 40 frame initial animation. It wasn't a change for the sake of balance as the boomerang and Dthrow changes were (which I've accepted and am not complaining about), but it was a change literally for the sake of changing it.
Let's imagine a Melee Link player coming into the room. He tries this **** out.

Do you really think bomb throw range is going to make or break whether or not he feels like Melee Link? Are you serious? That's that bull****.
Omfg he throws the bombs too far... THIS GAME IS ASS
Not going to happen. He's different from 3.0 Link because his automatic combos are gone and he has to play differently to see success. That doesn't mean his bombs should feel like throwing poorly-made paper airplanes.

And let me reiterate since you seem to be hard of reading: I'll call it whatever the **** I want whenever the **** I want. It's what I'm used to referring to it as. And there's no doctrine of political correctness when it comes to how I refer to Smash combos. Jesus Christ. Why don't YOU get over it?

Edit: The ideological debate over the ethics of naming need not apply if everyone else just ignores the **** and stops trying to defend some arbitrary honor over something that LITERALLY affects nothing. It literally affects you nihil when I call it that.

 

[Fortress]

But how does that make you feel?

 

[BigHairyFart]

If it affects nobody, then stop bringing it up. You guys are getting too close to flaming/arguing than you are to a civil discussion. That goes for everybody, since we want this thread to stay friendly for everybody. We don't need a repeat of the Samus section...

 

[Heero Yuy]

No hard feelings.

 

[eric bush]

Link more powerful in 3.5 or less? I agree with the smoother comment...

 

[Ace76]

How do you bomb jump now? My up b never makes the bomb explode

 

[BigHairyFart]

How do you bomb jump now? My up b never makes the bomb explode

When falling:
Throw bomb up>Wait until the bomb has started coming back down>Up-B

AGTing doesn't seem to work as well anymore.

 

[AnooseLOL]

Tag:Anoose
From: Dallas Texas
3.5 meta: 3.5 Link is still great guys. The reworked airdodge engine combined with Links faster wavedashing make him a super well rounded zoner. 3.02 allowed for a variety of playstyles with Link because of boomerang utility, but now that boomerang has hit lag after basically every hit, Links meta seems to be shifting towards racking up DMG via bombs//landing an up throw or two (lots of Uairs) then finish the stock with whatever down throw confirm you see feasable for their DI. In a sense, Link feels very formulaic in this version but his improved movement allows for easier execution.

Up tilt nerf: Replace up tilt with up smash in your old BnB throw combos. (Low percent dthrow on floaties/up throw on FF)

Recovery: AGT still works, you can still AGT about 3 bombs from the corner blast zones and an up b (or teather) if you dont mess up and fast fall. AKA still decent recovery options if used correctly and unpredictably.

Summary: Get ready to run away and chuck ****. Run away and bait them into grabs. Just keep running guys. Link got buffed imo

Questions: Still havent found a consistent bomb jump timing. Anyone got a video? (2 times in a row or moar plox :3 )

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Hi everyone, my thoughts on PM 3.5 Link:

Yeah he got nerfed. It's not that big of a deal since everyone else got nerfed to a degree as well. TBH the whole game is more fun to play because matchups are less overcentralizing. Just like Link can't use rang for everything anymore, Mario can't use fireballs to cover his range weakness and Lucas can't KO everyone at 90% with Uthrow. The only thing I don't agree with are the KO power nerfs. I understand that Link shouldn't be able to combo others across the stage like Falcon or something but his punish game seems a little lacking to me.

Besides, everything is subject to change. I trust the PMDT with Link. He has a lot of development behind him already.

 

[Pug]

I was playing last night and on two occasions I AGT'd with a C-stick left and Link threw the bomb right instead -- has anyone else experienced this?

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

In case anybody hasn't noticed, they fixed sword trails.

 

[HarryTheChin]

^ what the heck is a sword trail?

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

When a character with a sword attacks, their sword leaves an after image looking thing after it. It helps you see what the range of sword based attacks is.

Spoiler: It looks like this:

In 3.02, the trail wouldn't always appear during an attack, which messed up spacing for me and also looked worse aesthetically.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I was playing last night and on two occasions I AGT'd with a C-stick left and Link threw the bomb right instead -- has anyone else experienced this?

YO! I just experienced something strange like this too. Did the bomb drop REALLY short the opposite direction of the way you threw it as well?

 

[Pug]

YO! I just experienced something strange like this too. Did the bomb drop REALLY short the opposite direction of the way you threw it as well?

Yeah, 100%. Both times I was recovering from the right of the stage, jumping left. I Air-dodged up and C-sticked left, and Link threw the bomb to the right, and it barely travelled at all before dropping. I was then facing the wrong way to finish my recovery with a tether.

 

[Third]

So I think I found a new way to bomb jump, but since it only hits with the ending blow of the Up B, it can only be performed once and only if the Up B's not stale. The way to do it is to utilize AGT like in the previous builds, but instead of inputting a direction to go, you leave the control stick neutral while throwing the bomb up, then you Up B into the bomb and hit it with the ending swing. This is the most consistent way I've found so far, but the bad thing is that you can only do it once, so I'll try to find a way to hit the bomb with more hits of the Up B.

 

[Beorn]

So I think I found a new way to bomb jump, but since it only hits with the ending blow of the Up B, it can only be performed once and only if the Up B's not stale. The way to do it is to utilize AGT like in the previous builds, but instead of inputting a direction to go, you leave the control stick neutral while throwing the bomb up, then you Up B into the bomb and hit it with the ending swing. This is the most consistent way I've found so far, but the bad thing is that you can only do it once, so I'll try to find a way to hit the bomb with more hits of the Up B.

This is actually a pretty big deal. Most of the problem with the current bomb jump is that you can't do it low, or you will die from dropping during the bomb toss animation before you can up-b. This method you describe allows you to keep a bit more height. Not much, and certainly not anywhere near what he could get from a full glide toss upward, as he could in previous versions of pm.

It is unfortunate that Link is the only character with the ability to bomb jump that can only do it once, if he has not already used it onstage. It's very unreliable. Honestly his up-b is better used onstage than off.

 

[EmptySky00]

So I really wish the hitbox on his boomerang was ever so slightly larger so that it matched the boomerang itself. Then it would be less likely to go through people's heads when they're ducking down slightly. It's really annoying. I don't see this as much of an issue to bring up now that the boomerang isn't the one-move **** machine that it once was. Tlink doesn't have this issue, that short asshole. And his boomerang is bigger in general.

Also, I wish the grab box for up-B wasn't so goddamn deceptively short. I've had many moments where I'm so close to the ledge I stop short of taking it out to a candle-lit dinner and proposing to it, and I still don't grab it. It's really misleading and I hate dying for sweet-spotting it (visually at least) too perfectly. I wish if my arm looks like it can reach the ledge I would grab it.

And probably slightly more controversial, I wish Z-air had a slightly larger hitbox so that it worked slightly better. That **** sometimes just misses even though they're right there. It doesn't match the claw either iirc (slightly too small)

It has 15 frames of lag now, and since it's the second hit you're aiming for and you have to space the tip it's harder to use and more volatile than Samus's or whomever else's. So ya. Just small requests I would like to put out there for the dev team I guess. I'm probably just going to be told I'm an idiot again and the general response is going to be "Link doesn't need this." but whatever.