Dire Creeper
Smash Apprentice
Explain?
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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Falcon is always better than samus DK i think is better than Link but by popular opinion Link is better
TDK
Smash Master
Samus has actually cracked top 8 more times this year than Falcon.
S2J got top 8 at Sandstorm, Fuzzyness and Rocky both got top 8 at DrømmeLAN 4.5, S2J got top 8 at BA7, Darkrain and Wizzy got top 8 at Smash 'N Splash, Wizzy got top 8 at FC Smash 15, Wizzy got top 8 at WTFox, Ghatzu got top 8 at Smash Con, Ice used Falcon and got top 8 at Heir II, and Wizzy got top 8 at MLG.
In contrast, HugS got top 8 at BA7, Duck got top 8 at Get On My Level, HugS got top 8 at PAX.
Plup used a Shiek/Samus combo at Apex and one other national to place top 8, but I don't count hybrids. If we did, I could list Westballz and Mang0 with the top 8 Falcon group, so don't whine about my methods.
Anyways, Falcon has many more top 8 placements in majors (11) than Samus (3) over the past year.
Avoin
Smash Cadet
give me one good reason DK is right under yoshi and over either of the links, I don't see one. and yoshi being that low is wrong.
Marth over falco is very arguable as well.
I would entertain the idea of samus topping falcon MAYBE, but that's one heavy maybe. Samus would have to impress a bit more.
second one, plain and simply, no.
His recovery is sickening and his general game is just pretty awful. His only real good approach is back air, and that's essentially all he has. His grab combo's are pretty good but like, even that isn't going to save him.
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Avoin
Smash Cadet
Woops. accidental post.
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SethaEP
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2015
- Messages
- 8
I think I did something wrong, I put Yoshi at 13 not Mario lol
Jim Jam Flim Flam
Smash Apprentice
I think one of the most important things in this tier list in the character who occupies the #9 spot, since I doubt the top 8 characters are moving. So, who should be #9? And why?
TDK
Smash Master
If anyone, I think it should be Pikachu, Samus, or Luigi. Yoshi is still just aMSa [who hasn't top 8ed in a while], Ganon is slow, Doc doesn't seem to be going anywhere, Mario is a worse Doc, and the rest of the characters are either better or worse.
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OG Zen
Smash Rookie
The first part may seem weird. But if you study the probable meta.. As punish game progresses to 20xx falco will be a niche. I still believe marth is the best and goes 50/50 w/ sheik. But again. This goes back to punish game increasing. Fox is still probably the best but this is just speculation.
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Dire Creeper
Smash Apprentice
I only found out about this a few minutes ago; it was so sudden. RIP PM indeed and good luck to the team's future endeavors.
Avoin
Smash Cadet
samus sure is making that a hard decision huh. but pika seems to me a bit stronger. we'll know in the next few years.
TDK
Smash Master
This had better not be your top 5...
OG Zen
Smash Rookie
TDK
Smash Master
I can understand different opinions [except for Falcom over Peach], but where on earth is Falco?
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
poor PM ugh this sucks....but its understandable at least gl to them
MurphyPrime
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
- Messages
- 238
I think 9th is either pikachu or Samus. Luigi just isn't consistent enough to place him there (though I would place him 11th for sure). Peach, Marth, and Sheik are too hard of match-ups (my opinion) for him to be better. At least for now.
Plunder
Smash Ace
9th is Pikachu for obvious reason
Really though in this day and age Pikachu is better than Falcon, but people will never be ready to come to terms with that fact.
Really though in this day and age Pikachu is better than Falcon, but people will never be ready to come to terms with that fact.
MurphyPrime
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
- Messages
- 238
It's hard to deny if you think about it. Several Falcons are unable to make top 8 at majors, yet Pikachu is there frequently. Falcon is just so stylish and seemingly powerful that people think he has to be really good. That's my thought anyways.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
please bruh i WANT pika to be better than Falcon i think he is but i'd get hated if i said it.....oh wait
My guess is that people overrate Falcon for two reasons:
1. Established criteria. Falcon has been a top 7ish character for a long time and the ordering of the high and top tiers are basically measuring sticks as much as they are attempts to rank viability. Much like Fox's number 1 rank preceded his expected results by nearly 10 years, so does Falcon continue to stubbornly outrank characters who outperform him. Why? Because if it is written it must be true.
2. Falcon representation. Despite his flaws, Falcon has good representation and that is the number one asset you need to rally up tier theorists and other internet debaters to your cause. People still don't understand that the same 6 to 10 players keep winning. Not only do they represent top level meta but they might as well BE the meta. If you think about it, anyone who doesn't have a shot at getting top 5 when the best talent is present is pretty inconsequential and THAT might be even too generous.
Whether or not Falcon is the character everyone claims him to be still remains to be seen. I personally think he is better than Ice Climbers in "theory land" but I think it's totally fair to rank him under them in the current meta. ****, ranking him tied with Samus might even be fair in some respects.
He is also objectively less proven than Pikachu at this point. Even if you think Falcon is theoretically better you are delusional if you don't rank Pikachu over Falcon in current meta
1. Established criteria. Falcon has been a top 7ish character for a long time and the ordering of the high and top tiers are basically measuring sticks as much as they are attempts to rank viability. Much like Fox's number 1 rank preceded his expected results by nearly 10 years, so does Falcon continue to stubbornly outrank characters who outperform him. Why? Because if it is written it must be true.
2. Falcon representation. Despite his flaws, Falcon has good representation and that is the number one asset you need to rally up tier theorists and other internet debaters to your cause. People still don't understand that the same 6 to 10 players keep winning. Not only do they represent top level meta but they might as well BE the meta. If you think about it, anyone who doesn't have a shot at getting top 5 when the best talent is present is pretty inconsequential and THAT might be even too generous.
Whether or not Falcon is the character everyone claims him to be still remains to be seen. I personally think he is better than Ice Climbers in "theory land" but I think it's totally fair to rank him under them in the current meta. ****, ranking him tied with Samus might even be fair in some respects.
He is also objectively less proven than Pikachu at this point. Even if you think Falcon is theoretically better you are delusional if you don't rank Pikachu over Falcon in current meta
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Plunder
Smash Ace
Across all local, regional, and national levels the Falcon user base out numbers Pikachu's by about 11:1. At a major level it's even steeper.
So using fair logic would mean that Pikachu out ranks Falcons at nationals based on equal sample sizes. Also think about how high the placings are, the higher the placing within the top 8 the more exponential the difficulty becomes. You don't see any Falcons able to place high in the top 8 at large majors consistently like Pikachu has been able to. And really that's 1 main against like 10 high level respected Falcon mains. Very unfair chances and still we see Pikachu do better than Falcon over and over.
How many Gods has a Falcon beaten?
How many Gods has a Pikachu beaten?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Falcon's max potential is yet to be seen. One of the hardest individual characters to rank.
Avoin
Smash Cadet
That's my stance. we're seeing top falcons come to form. They're not quite there yet, but they're getting there. notably S2J, he has glaring flaws and he's still placing pretty high pretty consistently.
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Still, its pretty shocking when S2J and Wizzy go to Dreamhack Winter and get outplaced by Duck. They get frequent practice vs the gods in the some of the strongest regions in world. Was Duck even in conversation of being better than either of those players?
Time and time again we see players with less advantages in region, seeding, and apparently character selection outplace Falcons. When is good enough actually "good enough" to make Falcon get top 8 because apparently being a top 15 player like S2J isn't cutting it.
Time and time again we see players with less advantages in region, seeding, and apparently character selection outplace Falcons. When is good enough actually "good enough" to make Falcon get top 8 because apparently being a top 15 player like S2J isn't cutting it.
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Jim Jam Flim Flam
Smash Apprentice
I think Falcon and pikachu should be very close on the tier list, but Falcon's matchup spread makes him a better character when fighting against the top 8 characters. Pikachu has zero good matchups against the top 8, while falcon has 2 (marth and ICs, although marth/falcon is pretty even) Falcon does OK against pretty much everyone, fastfallers and floaties. I would agree that Pikachu would be the better character if there were no floaties, but that's something Pikachu struggles with that falcon doesn't. IMO, that's what keeps Pika from being better than falcon, as I rank falcon at 8 and pika at 9.
TDK
Smash Master
for me, 8-13 is:
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Plunder
Smash Ace
I am actually curious to hear what people will say -
How many more years of heavy usage does Falcon need before we see his illustrious and mythical potential reached?
Does he need another decade? Does he he need 10,000 competitive mains instead of 5,000? Is weed still getting in the way? Too many munchies?
I mean a handful of mains took Pikachu 10x further in a third of the time, to heights surpassing the hordes of Falcons. From an objective viewpoint, based in results and meta Pikachu is already soundly above Falcon, and has been for a while.
So, if falcon has some miraculous molasses meta evolution to be revealed at some distant future time, I would feel pretty confident in saying Pikachu will have more to gain and at a faster pace in the same time frame.
How many more years of heavy usage does Falcon need before we see his illustrious and mythical potential reached?
Does he need another decade? Does he he need 10,000 competitive mains instead of 5,000? Is weed still getting in the way? Too many munchies?
I mean a handful of mains took Pikachu 10x further in a third of the time, to heights surpassing the hordes of Falcons. From an objective viewpoint, based in results and meta Pikachu is already soundly above Falcon, and has been for a while.
So, if falcon has some miraculous molasses meta evolution to be revealed at some distant future time, I would feel pretty confident in saying Pikachu will have more to gain and at a faster pace in the same time frame.
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Pika for the win!
Avoin
Smash Cadet
gmBottles
Fun Haver
Could you be a bit more specific in your complaints, this doesn't contribute much.
There may be more Ganon mains nowadays, but he (sadly) definitely isn't above Doc and Mario.for me, 8-13 is:
Quite the opposite; you don't know the boundless power of Smoke3Jointz, but like any super saiyan form, it takes immense power and puts unbearable strain on the body. It comes out very rarely and is a sight to behold when it does.
EddyBearr
Smash Lord
Falcon's results make him seem like 9th or 10th, but thinking about Falcon makes it hard to place him lower than 8th. I consider him a "borderline high tier" where he seems like he should win, but isn't winning.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Wouldn't you agree that falcon has reasonable representation at high level for the very first time in history??? Only honorable mention is probably when darkrain, SS, hax, and scar were the best falcons. But they weren't pushing the metagame like 20GX is now. For the first time people have actually tried to optimize the better options of this lightning fast character. I think the results of TO11 show that things are a little different now. So no, I don't think it'll take a very long time. Falcon will continue to impress. Possibly take a national with 2+ Gods. Not arguing any ranking for Falcon, but HYES, his max potential is yet to be seen.
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Ima just say, this is literally the trend I said people are prone to when arguing for Falcon...
So far, Falcon has indeed proven he can get results at locals/regionals (SSS), tournaments with substantially less top level talent (TO11), or tournaments with no money on the line (STR). While noteworthy, none of these tournaments prove that Falcon can compete at top level on a consistent basis.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Like I said, I'm not arguing any particular rank for Falcon. Basically just pointing out that he is underdeveloped compared to the top 4, and that the recent increase in representation is bound to close that gap some.