Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Plunder]

Hi I'm a newbie at melee and smashboards, can anybody tell me how to beat Armada?

At this point?

Time Travel, prevent Armada from ever discovering Melee

 

[TheAcornDestroyer]

Git gud.

I 'm trying to git gud. I sat down and played him at evo 2015 in a few rotations of friendlies and got 1-2 stocked every time which was frustrating. He wasn't even using Peach and opted to go with his secondary Fox the whole time. I'd probably get 4 stocked if he used his main. I guess my question is, how do I beat Fox with Marth?

 

[TheAcornDestroyer]

Now people seem to be debating whether or not Falcon/Peach can win a major. Is anyone keen on continuing this argument? I have some rookie insight.

 

[BauxFalcon]

So it's 1 to 0 then?

It's like saying that aMSa is representative of the fact that Yoshi is high tier. Or Abate/Duck are representative of Luigi/Samus being high tier. Those are just flukes, they found a way to win with their character, it proves that it's a solid character sure, but heavily overrated in regards to people saying that those characters are god tier all of a sudden.

People have said that aMSa proves that Yoshi is like #3 tier. I've seen it before, and to all of those people, I say, bringing up individual cases does not refute a general trend.

Peach isn't that solid. Her projectiles are heavily overrated and require extreme precision. Armada mastered Peach's projectiles.

We've only really had one consistently good peach ever, and that's Armada.

 

[TDK]

We've only really had one consistently good peach ever, and that's Armada.

Well, Hax$ is the only consistently good Falcon ever, and since he no longer plays Falcon, well...

Peach is a better character. She really only loses to Falcon in Combo game and ever-so-slightly in Killpower. Her damage racking, neutral, spacing, recovery, and edge guarding all beat Falcon's into the ground.

 

[Benks]

It's like saying that aMSa is representative of the fact that Yoshi is high tier. Or Abate/Duck are representative of Luigi/Samus being high tier. Those are just flukes, they found a way to win with their character, it proves that it's a solid character sure, but heavily overrated in regards to people saying that those characters are god tier all of a sudden.

I would like to know who has been claiming that Yoshi, Luigi, and Samus are "god tier" characters just based on results from aMSa, Abate, and Duck.

 

[TDK]

I would like to know who has been claiming that Yoshi, Luigi, and Samus are "god tier" characters just based off of results from aMSa, Abate, and duck.

Nobody. I don't think a single person has had Yoshi above 12th, Luigi is 11th on most of these, and Samus seems to be around #10-12th.

 

[pichuplayer]

Nobody. I don't think a single person has had Yoshi above 12th, Luigi is 11th on most of these, and Samus seems to be around #10-12th.

i've had Yoshi at 11th and luigi at 12th though Samus does seem to be between 10-12

 

[Spak]

Nobody. I don't think a single person has had Yoshi above 12th, Luigi is 11th on most of these, and Samus seems to be around #10-12th.

 

[TDK]

... or not.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I personally believe Peach is a better character than Falcon because of Falcon's horrible, horrible recovery. He can't even sweetspot the damn ledge! He's very easy to edgeguard, even by novice players.

 

[-ACE-]

As top level is approached, edgeguarding is very consistent, so having a bad recovery matters less.

Not arguing falcon over peach, lol, just saying. I think jiggs is 5th in theory, peach 5th IRL. But honestly hbox is recently making me want to favor puff.

 

[Comet7]

eh, fox and falco can at least do stuff like ledge tech to illusion. falco should still be screwed if he techs. the only glimmer of hope for him would be wall jump to air dpdge, which is mediocre... or just don't hit him near the ledge and kill him anyway. nearly everyone else also has better options than falcon that at least give them a chance of getting back in some situations.

 

[Dolla Pills]

At least Falcon has good invincibility frames from the ledge *cough cough* *Marth* *cough cough* *Peach*

 

[SPoitter]

Done some review: Here's my new list. Feel free to attack politely.


A+:
1:
2.
3.
4:

A:
5:
6:

A-:
7:

B+:
8:
9:
10:

B:
11:
12:

B-:
13:
14:
15:

C+:
16:
17:

C:
18:
19:
20:

C-:
21:
22:
23:
24:

F:
25:
26:

the way I did this one put a lot more emphasis on how good a character's neutral game over anything else, followed by spacing tools, combos, results, edgeguarding, recovery, and mixups.

In other words, come at me, Falcons.

couple of things that kind of bug me about this list:
why is captain falcon lower than Samus and Pikachu, not only are those 2 character's playerbases smaller, but those 2 character can't even come close to the amount of things falcon can do in neutral, not to mention that . And I think it's kind of weird to put Zelda above Mewtwo and Ness, but whatever.

 

[BauxFalcon]

I would like to know who has been claiming that Yoshi, Luigi, and Samus are "god tier" characters just based on results from aMSa, Abate, and Duck.

I can't pull up specific examples about abate and duck, but I do know there was a brief movement saying that yoshi is high tier.

Here are two reddit threads I found with some googling
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/369tjw/melee_whats_the_deal_with_yoshi/
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/28oo30/should_yoshi_be_moved_higher_up_on_the_tier_list/

I've seen multiple other instances where people have placed Yoshi as far as top 3-5 on the tier list.

People are quick to react.

 

[pichuplayer]

I can't pull up specific examples about abate and duck, but I do know there was a brief movement saying that yoshi is high tier.

Here are two reddit threads I found with some googling
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/369tjw/melee_whats_the_deal_with_yoshi/
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/28oo30/should_yoshi_be_moved_higher_up_on_the_tier_list/

I've seen multiple other instances where people have placed Yoshi as far as top 3-5 on the tier list.

People are quick to react.

3-5? wow i'm a huge Yoshi fan but that is just dumb Yoshi is NOT better than most of top 8

 

[BauxFalcon]

3-5? wow i'm a huge Yoshi fan but that is just dumb Yoshi is NOT better than most of top 8

I know, it's stupid, but it's bias based off of one player. Just because one player happened to do well with that character doesn't mean he's good.

 

[-ACE-]

At least Falcon has good invincibility frames from the ledge *cough cough* *Marth* *cough cough* *Peach*

Ganon has like 18 frames of invincibility after FP ledgehop NIL lol. Crazy

 

[EddyBearr]

I tend to be more inclined with the view that it only takes 1 player to showcase high level potential. If aMSa or Shroomed can hang at the near-top with Yoshi or Doc, then this inevitably means that Yoshi and Doc have all the tools necessary to hang at the near-top.

 

[TDK]

why is captain falcon lower than Samus and Pikachu, not only are those 2 character's playerbases smaller, but those 2 character can't even come close to the amount of things falcon can do in neutral, not to mention that .

What things?

 

[-ACE-]

I tend to be more inclined with the view that it only takes 1 player to showcase high level potential. If aMSa or Shroomed can hang at the near-top with Yoshi or Doc, then this inevitably means that Yoshi and Doc have all the tools necessary to hang at the near-top.

I don't think this is a bad way of thinking at all really, but here's my 2 cents.

Here's an example. I've seen a lot of people say in recent times that Fox vs Samus is even. To me, I think the top level fox vs Samus meta was just a little behind (still is), and people were taking in too much info off of a few recent sets. For me, it would take Plup, duck, and occasionally hugs to be at least threatening the top 3 foxes (not just leffen, armada and mango). Plup can do this but I'm not making a ruling based on that. And for all I know armada's fox gives him pure hell, but I think time will show that fox wins undeniably by a considerable margin. People would be looking at fox vs peach a lot differently too if it wasn't for leffen and some of mango's better performances (evo13omg). I think one player accomplishments mean something for sure, but you definitely don't know the entire story, in any situation, until you've seen several top players engage in the same scenario. The rest is up to theory. Imo

I hate Swype text typos.

 

[1MachGO]

People misinterpreting Fox/Samus as even feels like it'd stem from Leffen being very weak at MU, tbh. Obviously he isn't the only Fox to have lost to Samus and Samus's spacie match ups are pretty decent, but I think people are too quick to disregard other evidence. Samus isn't a new threat to higher level competition and has been around for a while. There are sets like Hax vs. Plup at Evo 2014, which were close games, but then there is also hax vs. Plup at BH4, where Hax probably made some adjustments and cleanly beat Plup.

 

[C-SAF]

Not yet. Which you might have figured out because we're still arguing here.

The list has already been voted on though. Lets face it, the arguing going on here is going to last all of eternity whether there is a new tier list or not.

 

[Avoin]

i wouldn't call samus/fox an even, but i would say samus definitely has a pretty good matchup vs fox. With time it might become even or maybe even samus favored*which i heavily doubt but hey*, but that remains to be seen. calls like that take time to form that opinion in the community, not just a few recency bias sets.

 

[Dolla Pills]

If anything I expect Samus Fox to go more in Fox's favor over time. Even just watching the recent Leffen stream where he played Plup for eight hours, he started off mostly unable to take a game and by the end of the night the situation was completely reversed.

 

[Avoin]

If anything I expect Samus Fox to go more in Fox's favor over time. Even just watching the recent Leffen stream where he played Plup for eight hours, he started off mostly unable to take a game and by the end of the night the situation was completely reversed.

you play anybody for 8 hours straight and be the better overall player, you'll eventually adapt and win most of the time.

But people come out with new tricks and what not in tourny. Not smart on plups end to play for 8 hours with leffen, his samus was a big x factor. I don't see leffen particularly dominating now by any means, but doesn't make it easier on him.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't think plup's really worried lol

 

[Avoin]

I don't think plup's really worried lol

Wouldn't imagine so. But giving one of the top 6 that specifically struggles with your MU more experience to defeat said MU isn't exactly smart. But i mean he did it so, obviously not much worry on his part.

 

[1MachGO]

Pretty sure the main reason plup went Samus at Evo was because he spilled beer on his controller the night before. He would absolutely go Sheik vs Leffen in bracket these days; especially given he already does so vs. Mango.

 

[Squirrell]

lol this is hilarious.

Yup, Plup sure did get 4th at EVO.....all with Samus. Al the way. Plup = Samus confirmed.


I mean it's not like a Pikachu has beaten almost all the Gods (some of them more than one time). Let's go ahead and leave out all the very high placings Axe got going ALL PIKACHU at majors. Your post is more biased than Nazi propaganda during WWII.

Tell me how a Puff/Sheik main and Hbox fan is biased toward Samus? I did this all off quick research, I apologize for mistakes or oversights. But as Avoin said, I don't see Axe doing any better. Pikachu is dying. And yeah, Axe is rated 7th. That proves nothing about characters or tiers, that just means Axe is an incredibly good player. Why should a character that gets carried by one guy be considered better than a character that multiple players are getting high results with?

And yeah, Plup doesn't main Samus. That doesn't mean he isn't the best Samus in the world. That also doesn't take away from him, Hugs, and Duck all placing in the top 16 at DHW, and 2 of those ARE solo Samuses. Samus won't win majors, just like Axe never wins majors. But Samus does have much better representation. That's basically my entire argument. It's the same thing as Sheik/Marth. Plenty of players think Sheik should be 3rd or even 2nd on the tier list, but nobody argues because Marth has slightly better representation and Falco has better results.

Please explain to me how one player doing okay with a character overrules multiple players doing just as well with another character, especially when Samus's meta is just now starting to really develop and Pika's is going absolutely nowhere.

EDIT: I realize Sheik is 3rd and Marth is 4th on the current tier list. I'm just referring to how most unofficial tier lists these days have them swapped and that seems to be more accurate.

 

[1MachGO]

Please explain to me how one player doing okay with a character overrules multiple players doing just as well with another character, especially when Samus's meta is just now starting to really develop and Pika's is going absolutely nowhere.

You want the short version or the long version?

 

[vangerz]

When you order your tier list, you need to decide on how much weight you give current results and how much weight to prospective potential

When I see the best modern Pikachu, Samus, and Yoshi players, I feel like, despite the massive improvements to their metas, their potential is still out of sight, unlike what I feel of the Mario Bros.

Proven World-Champion characters
S

Unproven characters or characters who would take a very special person to become a champion with
A

Characters falling behind
B

The rest
C
D
E

 

[Dolla Pills]

To be honest all characters need a very special person to be a world champion with, but for the most part I would agree with that list. I'd probably drop Peach down though

 

[1MachGO]

Super Bare-Bones Results Focused Tier List:

I will probably make a thread about this later that encompasses results up to top 32, more in depth explanations, and a deeper look at match counts.

Method and criteria
Considering this game is played by humans, winning tournaments really comes down to beating the gods. Melee's top players are super consistent and they are basically playing a different game than the rest. So taking that into consideration, here is my method:

Spoiler

>Only looking at top 5 at majors and super majors in the past 2 years. I narrowed it down to top 5 because this is the point in bracket where you HAVE to play the gods and had a shot of winning the tournament; even if its 1%
>Inverse point distribution: you get 5 points for 1st and 1 point for 5th
>Even weighting: this means I am only considering the HIGHEST placing of each character. Popularity of a character is a confounding human element and not something I will be looking at right now. If Fox A gets first and a Fox B gets second, then Fox B is irrelevant to representing the pinnacle of that character's meta on that day. This also puts all of the characters on even footing.
>Dual Maining: I will be looking at the characters that player MOSTLY used during their top 8. Young Link won't get an inflated result if Armada only used him for one set, and likewise, Peach won't get an inflated result if Armada didn't use her in top 8. If there is a very close set/game usage between two characters I will count them both.

Tournaments used

Spoiler

Super Majors: At least 4 Gods; extremely stacked attendance of top 25 players
Apex 2014-15
Evo 2014-15
Big House 4-5
MLG Anaheim 2014
CEO 2015
Smash Summit
SKTAR 3
Paragon ORL
MVG Sandstorm
Press Start
Paragon LA: No
HTC Throwdown
DHW

probably missing a few but here is a start

Results:

Certainly Viable:
56 pts. [7 first places]
47 pts. [5 first places]
38 pts. [1 first place]
36 pts. [2 first places]

Likely Viable:
27 pts. [0 first places]
22 pts. [2 first places]

Potentially Viable:
9 pts. [0 first places]
4 pts. [0 first places]

Questionable:
2 pts. [0 first places]
1 pt. [0 first places]

Very Questionable:
Everyone else

Even though this is founded purely in results, I honestly don't find myself disagreeing with it all that much. I personally believe that Sheik is better than Puff, but I also can't ignore the fact that Sheik hasn't won anything in a long time and that Puff is a more proven character.

 

[Plunder]

^ Interesting breakdown

I think for sanity's sake I'd have to subjectively move ICs above Pikachu, and have Doc in between Samus and Yoshi.

 

[C-SAF]

Super Bare-Bones Results Focused Tier List:

I will probably make a thread about this later that encompasses results up to top 32, more in depth explanations, and a deeper look at match counts.

Method and criteria
Considering this game is played by humans, winning tournaments really comes down to beating the gods. Melee's top players are super consistent and they are basically playing a different game than the rest. So taking that into consideration, here is my method:

Spoiler

>Only looking at top 5 at majors and super majors in the past 2 years. I narrowed it down to top 5 because this is the point in bracket where you HAVE to play the gods and had a shot of winning the tournament; even if its 1%
>Inverse point distribution: you get 5 points for 1st and 1 point for 5th
>Even weighting: this means I am only considering the HIGHEST placing of each character. Popularity of a character is a confounding human element and not something I will be looking at right now. If Fox A gets first and a Fox B gets second, then Fox B is irrelevant to representing the pinnacle of that character's meta on that day. This also puts all of the characters on even footing.
>Dual Maining: I will be looking at the characters that player MOSTLY used during their top 8. Young Link won't get an inflated result if Armada only used him for one set, and likewise, Peach won't get an inflated result if Armada didn't use her in top 8. If there is a very close set/game usage between two characters I will count them both.

Tournaments used

Spoiler

Super Majors: At least 4 Gods; extremely stacked attendance of top 25 players
Apex 2014-15
Evo 2014-15
Big House 4-5
MLG Anaheim 2014
CEO 2015
Smash Summit
SKTAR 3
Paragon ORL
MVG Sandstorm
Press Start
Paragon LA: No
HTC Throwdown
DHW

probably missing a few but here is a start

Results:

Certainly Viable:
56 pts. [7 first places]
47 pts. [5 first places]
38 pts. [1 first place]
36 pts. [2 first places]

Likely Viable:
27 pts. [0 first places]
22 pts. [2 first places]

Potentially Viable:
9 pts. [0 first places]
4 pts. [0 first places]

Questionable:
2 pts. [0 first places]
1 pt. [0 first places]

Very Questionable:
Everyone else

Even though this is founded purely in results, I honestly don't find myself disagreeing with it all that much. I personally believe that Sheik is better than Puff, but I also can't ignore the fact that Sheik hasn't won anything in a long time and that Puff is a more proven character.

The biggest problem with this methodology is that only 6 people can get top 5. With how consistent top level melee is, top 5 likely has more to do with player than character. This is definatly reflected with the lack of falcon. Still a great way to create a framework though.

 

[Plunder]

The biggest problem with this methodology is that only 6 people can get top 5. With how consistent top level melee is, top 5 likely has more to do with player than character. This is definatly reflected with the lack of falcon. Still a great way to create a framework though.

I guess we can finally scientifically conclude that Captain Falcon attracts a crap-ton of sub-par players.

This trend will continue until Melee has it's last major.

So that means Captain Falcon will never reach his legendary potential that has been talked about since the dawn of time.....because....players

*single tear*

If by some miracle some amazing player comes along and starts actually getting respectable placings consistently then it will of course be the player and not the character.....therefore making these kinds of points pointless and paradoxical (with a hint of hypocrisy)

 

[1MachGO]

The biggest problem with this methodology is that only 6 people can get top 5. With how consistent top level melee is, top 5 likely has more to do with player than character. This is definatly reflected with the lack of falcon. Still a great way to create a framework though.

This was intentional since I was only really interested in performances that were close to winning tournaments. Getting top 8 doesn't guarantee you had to play a god, and by extension, doesn't guarantee you were actually participating in top level; especially with the finicky nature of brackets. Even if I did extend the criteria to top 8, Falcon would only have one instance of getting there (MVG Sandstorm). IMO, that isn't enough evidence to conclude he is top 8 reliable and he would still rank noticeably worse than Ice Climbers and Pikachu.

And you are right that the top 5 has more to do with player rather than character, but character is still a very important factor. Mango couldn't get top 5 when he went Mario at Apex, for instance. If your character selection isn't holding you back, that bodes well for their usability. Thus far, Spacies, Marth, Puff, Sheik, and Peach are the only characters demonstrated to be consistently "viable" and Pikachu/Ice Climbers having some potential.

^ Interesting breakdown

I think for sanity's sake I'd have to subjectively move ICs above Pikachu, and have Doc in between Samus and Yoshi.

If I included Evo 2013 and Apex 2013, Doc would be on the board (tied with Yoshi) and Ice Climbers would be 1 point behind Pikachu. The gap between Peach/Sheik and Marth/Puff would also shrink a bit more (ironic that Peach would still be so low despite having the third most tournament wins).

I just felt it was too hard to include 2013 since the level of play among the Gods seems to have improved tremendously during 2014 (though now it has somewhat stagnated)

 

[C-SAF]

This was intentional since I was only really interested in performances that were close to winning tournaments. Getting top 8 doesn't guarantee you had to play a god, and by extension, doesn't guarantee you were actually participating in top level; especially with the finicky nature of brackets. Even if I did extend the criteria to top 8, Falcon would only have one instance of getting there (MVG Sandstorm). IMO, that isn't enough evidence to conclude he is top 8 reliable and he would still rank noticeably worse than Ice Climbers and Pikachu.

And you are right that the top 5 has more to do with player rather than character, but character is still a very important factor. Mango couldn't get top 5 when he went Mario at Apex, for instance. If your character selection isn't holding you back, that bodes well for their usability. Thus far, Spacies, Marth, Puff, Sheik, and Peach are the only characters demonstrated to be consistently "viable" and Pikachu/Ice Climbers having some potential.

I wouldn't encourage u to change the criteria in an effort to fit falcon in, as that is just skewing the process to get the results u want, but was just pointing out that falcon is probably just as viable as Pika or Yoshi, yet isn't reflected.

My point about the top 5 was that it puts a limiter on the amount of vable characters that can be reflected. Lets say there was 8 viable characters for sure, that couldn't be questioned. Only 6 would be reflected if the same players kept getting top 5. The small number isn't wrong, but it limits the amount of viable characters that could be reflected.

This was just some problems I saw with creating tier list straight from this data. Its useful, but like u said barebones.