Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Dolla Pills]

The way I look at Falcon, we live in a world where at top level every matchup is considered at worst even except for Fox and Falco. So, given there aren't a huge amount of Falco's (at this point basically just Mango and Westballz with PP absent), Falcon's only big bracket threat is Fox, which all the other characters in that tier share (except for maybe Samus, but I'd still say Samus). Just following this half baked logic there isn't a reason Falcon couldn't win a tournament if Puff and Peach can.

Now, when we look at results we don't see Falcon's winning tournaments or even placing top eight at the big events. I could see Wizzrobe maybe get there since he has very close sets with m2k, has beaten Hbox at locals, took Leffen to game three at CEO, and loses to Armada but three stocked him in one game at DH. I think he's still going to lose to the better players on the big stage, but not my opinion it's him as a player and not his character.

This probably didn't make much sense, I might edit it later.

EDIT:
Just a short question, does anyone think a solo Peach main could win a big tournament?

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

Armada won Dreamhack London and only used Peach.

 

[1MachGO]

Like I said, I'm not arguing any particular rank for Falcon. Basically just pointing out that he is underdeveloped compared to the top 4, and that the recent increase in representation is bound to close that gap some.

That's fair, though I would argue that Falcon never had poor representation, either.

Dolla Pills a solo Peach just won a big tournament. Armada won Smash Summit without using Fox.
EDIT: Actually, he did go Fox vs. PP. But still mostly won with peach

I feel like you can't really compare Falcon to Peach and Puff in that way because their limitations are totally different. Peach and Puff demand more inconsistency from the opponent rather than themselves to fail. This obviously isn't meant to imply that Peach and Puff arent super hard to play at top level (they are), but they obviously don't get chaingrabbed and gimped like a spacie or other non-floaties. They can wall out their opponents, go for trades, and hold meaningful leads. Falcon being one stock up vs character x holds far less weight than being one stock up with Puff, Peach, or any floaty for that matter.

So without elaborating too much as to why Falcon is a plainly inferior character to Puff and Peach, I will simply state that his match ups operate totally differently. On paper, Fox might beat Peach harder than he beats Falcon. However, in reality, Peach can blow up Fox in more ways than Falcon can whether it be a quick gimp, dsmash punish, chain grab, etc. Meanwhile, the "blow up" instances are a two way street with Falcon who could swiftly lose his stock to a shine gimp or extended combo from one opening. Losing your stock in an instant can be some demoralizing **** and maintaining composure and executing under stress are real demands at top level. Falcon is vulnerable to this kind of outcome all of the time and in any matchup; even if he supposedly "wins" or goes even "at worst". He doesn't have shine and he has horrible defensive options OoS and on recovery to highlight his natural vulnerability to combos and gimps. He demands absurd consistency in multiple in and out of game departments to succeed

 

[BauxFalcon]

S Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Falcon
7. Peach
8. ICs

A Tier
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. Doc
13. Ganon
14. Yoshi
15. Mario

B Tier
16. YL
17. Link
18. DK
19. G&W
20. Pichu
21. Roy
22. Zelda

F Tier
23. Mewtwo
24. Kirby
25. Ness
26. Bowser

 

[CptJPuff]

S Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Falcon
7. Peach
8. ICs

A Tier
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. Doc
13. Ganon
14. Yoshi
15. Mario

B Tier
16. YL
17. Link
18. DK
19. G&W
20. Pichu
21. Roy
22. Zelda

F Tier
23. Mewtwo
24. Kirby
25. Ness
26. Bowser

Why do you have Falco>Fox and Falcon>Peach? I'm generally curious because these beliefs don't pop up too much.

 

[Dolla Pills]

1 1MachGO
The reason I don't believe a solo peach main could win a big tournament is because of Hbox and Leffen. Even for Armada. Summit was a bit different because neither of them were there, but in general I stand by this (I mean there were only 16 people there and the top 2/3 in the world were missing).

Every single tournament that both Hbox and Armada entered they played at least one set with the exception of MVG Sandstorm, and there is no way his Peach is beating Hbox's Puff. It's even worse considering Hbox's recent improvements and the fact that Winner's/Grand's were Hbox/Armada at the last 3 tournaments they both made it to. On top of that, you have Leffen who is still heavily favored to beat Armada's Peach. On top of that, you have PP who in the past has shown he can beat the Peach and Mango who might beat it too. So really Armada would need a miracle like MVG to happen in order to win a big event with only Peach, and that's talking about the best player in the world.

Now, in regards to your other points I actually pretty much agree. I just think that we shouldn't say Peach can win the biggest events if we say Falcon absolutely can't, because even Armada would need a superb amount of luck to win. To me it's either you say they can both win or they can both lose, but saying Peach I think is a bit short-sighting (keep in mind I am talking about big events, and while Summit had a deep skill pool it doesn't exactly qualify).

 

[1MachGO]

1 1MachGO
The reason I don't believe a solo peach main could win a big tournament is because of Hbox and Leffen. Even for Armada. Summit was a bit different because neither of them were there, but in general I stand by this (I mean there were only 16 people there and the top 2/3 in the world were missing).

Every single tournament that both Hbox and Armada entered they played at least one set with the exception of MVG Sandstorm, and there is no way his Peach is beating Hbox's Puff. It's even worse considering Hbox's recent improvements and the fact that Winner's/Grand's were Hbox/Armada at the last 3 tournaments they both made it to. On top of that, you have Leffen who is still heavily favored to beat Armada's Peach. On top of that, you have PP who in the past has shown he can beat the Peach and Mango who might beat it too. So really Armada would need a miracle like MVG to happen in order to win a big event with only Peach, and that's talking about the best player in the world.

Now, in regards to your other points I actually pretty much agree. I just think that we shouldn't say Peach can win the biggest events if we say Falcon absolutely can't, because even Armada would need a superb amount of luck to win. To me it's either you say they can both win or they can both lose, but saying Peach I think is a bit short-sighting (keep in mind I am talking about big events, and while Summit had a deep skill pool it doesn't exactly qualify).

Since tournaments aren't round robins we do have to take favorable brackets into account. Hbox had a great bracket at Dreamhack but I would still count that as a legitimate Puff win, even if his biggest threats weren't there or weren't in peak form.

Discounting Summit because it wasn't "big" is dumb because it had the most top level talent. Like it or not, these players essentially comprise Melee's meta since they win so often. Summit was far more stacked than something like Paragon LA which had over 500 entrants. Stamina isn't even that big a factor since players can recharge over multi day events. In fact, you could even make the argument that Summit was more taxing since they were constantly playing against competent and challenging opponents instead of gunning through 10+ sets of lower level players.

More importantly, I feel that you are tying Peach and Falcon together arbitrarily. They are two different characters and their viability is mutually exclusive. Saying Falcon has the potential to win when no one is getting top 8 with him is completely different than saying Peach can win when she has pulled it off several times in recent memory.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Since tournaments aren't round robins we do have to take favorable brackets into account. Hbox had a great bracket at Dreamhack but I would still count that as a legitimate Puff win, even if his biggest threats weren't there or weren't in peak form.

Discounting Summit because it wasn't "big" is dumb because it had the most top level talent. Like it or not, these players essentially comprise Melee's meta since they win so often. Summit was far more stacked than something like Paragon LA which had over 500 entrants. Stamina isn't even that big a factor since players can recharge over multi day events. In fact, you could even make the argument that Summit was more taxing since they were constantly playing against competent and challenging opponents instead of gunning through 10+ sets of lower level players.

More importantly, I feel that you are tying Peach and Falcon together arbitrarily. They are two different characters and their viability is mutually exclusive. Saying Falcon has the potential to win when no one is getting top 8 with him is completely different than saying Peach can win when she has pulled it off several times in recent memory.

Right but summit was missing Hbox and Leffen which are hard Peach counters. What I'm saying is Armada would need extreme bracket luck to win a major with only Peach, like what happened at MVG. And technically he didn't even go all Peach at Summit

I just don't understand people who say Peach can win a major but Falcon can't.

 

[ZZSamantha]

I think we should all just agree Mewtwo is S tier.

I mean, cmon.

 

[BauxFalcon]

Why do you have Falco>Fox and Falcon>Peach? I'm generally curious because these beliefs don't pop up too much.

Falco is more consistent and has a simpler neutral game at top level. His combos are also more guaranteed, and whatnot.

Falcon > Peach because of a few things.
1) Falcon is fast, and has a great DD
2) His combos are extremely potent
3) 20GX tech has been largely unused. Not many people are trying to tech chase on reaction.
4) Peach can be punished really hard. Falcon can survive hard punishes
5) Without FD Falcon is really good at dealing with projectiles, Peach, is worse because of her sluggishness in air and on the ground.
6) If you give Falcon any breathing room, no matter how small, he can convert it into a huge punish
7) Yes, he requires DI reads at medium-high percents (to combo into a kill), but sometimes, he can get stage control without having to combo.

 

[1MachGO]

I just don't understand people who say Peach can win a major but Falcon can't.

Because it has been proven she can win majors or get top 4 at the very least; implying that if pushed further, she could do it.

Meanwhile, Falcon isn't even fully proven in his ability to get top 8 at majors, let alone top 4, and far away from 1st place.

The differences are obvious. They are two different characters.

 

[-ACE-]

Meanwhile, Falcon isn't even fully proven in his ability to get top 8 at majors

Doesn't this count for something?

S2J got top 8 at Sandstorm, Fuzzyness and Rocky both got top 8 at DrømmeLAN 4.5, S2J got top 8 at BA7, Darkrain and Wizzy got top 8 at Smash 'N Splash, Wizzy got top 8 at FC Smash 15, Wizzy got top 8 at WTFox, Ghatzu got top 8 at Smash Con, Ice used Falcon and got top 8 at Heir II, and Wizzy got top 8 at MLG.

 

[Squirrell]

Why do you have Falco>Fox and Falcon>Peach? I'm generally curious because these beliefs don't pop up too much.

I think Falco's better than Fox too, he just has a lot less representation thus less results. Honestly, aside from Fox being faster and his broken Usmash/Uair, Falco's better in pretty much every way. Mango and PP even argue that Falco's recovery is better than Fox's, despite his recovery always being listed as a weakness. I think it's just that Falco's meta is less developed, if people dissected and perfected him like Fox I don't have a doubt he'd be #1 on any tier list.

 

[TDK]

1) Falcon is fast, and has a great DD
2) His combos are extremely potent
3) 20GX tech has been largely unused. Not many people are trying to tech chase on reaction.
4) Peach can be punished really hard. Falcon can survive hard punishes
5) Without FD Falcon is really good at dealing with projectiles, Peach, is worse because of her sluggishness in air and on the ground.
6) If you give Falcon any breathing room, no matter how small, he can convert it into a huge punish
7) Yes, he requires DI reads at medium-high percents (to combo into a kill), but sometimes, he can get stage control without having to combo.

1) Yes, Falcon is fast. Peach has a strong projectile, Float, and a slew of long-lasting, powerful aerials.
2) This applies to every top and high-tiered character in the game, alongside a lot of the mid tiers and even some bottom tiers.
4) Until it gets used, it doesn't count for as much.
5) This only applies if both Characters get sent off the Top above the stage. With a fast falling speed and awful recovery, Falcon isn't living Hard punishes if your opponent knows how to edgeguard. Even then, with Peach's floaty property, she can live off the side easily.
6) See 2.
7. So can almost every top tier. Fox and Falco have lasers, Sheik and Marth have spacing tools galore, Jigglypuff and Peach have aerial conversions and spacing aerials, Peach also has turnips, and with IC's, it's one grab and you're done.

 

[migul]

I think Falco's better than Fox too, he just has a lot less representation thus less results. Honestly, aside from Fox being faster and his broken Usmash/Uair, Falco's better in pretty much every way. Mango and PP even argue that Falco's recovery is better than Fox's, despite his recovery always being listed as a weakness. I think it's just that Falco's meta is less developed, if people dissected and perfected him like Fox I don't have a doubt he'd be #1 on any tier list.

I don't think so. Fox's throw game is much better. His matchups vs. floaties are SO much better. I also disagree with the sentiment that Falco's recovery is better. Fox has more mixups due to his longer up b, and he can even convert into a kill off of a failed edgeguard, making him much trickier to edgeguard.

 

[1MachGO]

Doesn't this count for something?

Maybe Sandstorm since there was a lot of top level talent there. There just aren't enough threats at the other tournaments to consider them majors on par with Apex 2014-15, SKTAR 3, Evo 13-15, Big House 4-5, MLG Anaheim, Smash Summit, Paragon LA, CEO 2015, Dreamhack Winter, or HTC Throwdown; tournaments that have 3+ gods and multiple players in the top 25

 

[Plunder]

At the highest level Falcon's MUs against Fox, Falco, Sheik become un-winnable. I think the same can be said for Puff as well.

His recovery and neutral are way to predictable and can be easily flow-charted against on almost any stage. He's too large and he lacks true defensive options to escape "checkmate" situations on and off stage.

His speeed and DD become nullified by those characters I mentioned since they have safer preemptive and reactionary tools that can beat any hope of a Falcon being "unpredictable" or evasive.

 

[-ACE-]

At the highest level, falcon is turning every hit or grab into a KO. Un-winnable? You doubt his neutral that much?

His speeed and DD become nullified by those characters I mentioned since they have safer preemptive and reactionary tools that can beat any hope of a Falcon being "unpredictable" or evasive.

No. Nullified? Beat any hope? When's the last time a falcon dash danced faster and more intelligently than PPMD? Nullifying a falcon's "humanly" perfect dash-dancing would be much easier said than done. I don't think you give falcon enough cred.

 

[Plunder]

Nah Ace I think people give Falcon too much cred, and it's gone on so long now that people don't even consider the 10 years of non-stop evidence against him.

At the highest level, falcon is turning every hit or grab into a KO. Un-winnable? You doubt his neutral that much?

We've already been through this. If you want to play that game, well then the opponent has to be on the same level with a Fox, Falco, or Sheik. This isn't a super godly Falcon against a less skilled top-tier - that is a pointless scenario.

Just take a second and think about an optimal Sheik vs an optimal Falcon.

Think about that. You want to talk about tech chases, 0-to-deaths, combos, edgeguarding? Who do you think has it like 300% easier? Who has more of a chance to escape and recover?

Un-winnable with equal skill and MU knowledge. Same with Fox and Falco IMO.

 

[TDK]

Done some review: Here's my new list. Feel free to attack politely.


A+:
1:
2.
3.
4:

A:
5:
6:

A-:
7:

B+:
8:
9:
10:

B:
11:
12:

B-:
13:
14:
15:

C+:
16:
17:

C:
18:
19:
20:

C-:
21:
22:
23:
24:

F:
25:
26:

the way I did this one put a lot more emphasis on how good a character's neutral game over anything else, followed by spacing tools, combos, results, edgeguarding, recovery, and mixups.

In other words, come at me, Falcons.

 

[Plunder]

I don't think I would put Samus above Falcon, but I wouldn't argue with Pikachu above Falcon. Those 2 are a lot closer than people might think (the tier break is not as concrete IMO)

I would say Samus is definitely far more annoying to combo, get kill setups on, and edge guard. But Falcon does have a more average MU spread against more weight types even if he himself dies much faster (and vice versa).

Samus does seem to have a much better chance at the highest levels against spacies just based on the nature of her neutral and defensive capabilities. She is built in this game to counter them pretty much. Plup shows us glimmers of it, but there is still so much to be optimized with the Samus vs Spacies MUs.

 

[migul]

Done some review: Here's my new list. Feel free to attack politely.


A+:
1:
2.
3.
4:

A:
5:
6:

A-:
7:

B+:
8:
9:
10:

B:
11:
12:

B-:
13:
14:
15:

C+:
16:
17:

C:
18:
19:
20:

C-:
21:
22:
23:
24:

F:
25:
26:

the way I did this one put a lot more emphasis on how good a character's neutral game over anything else, followed by spacing tools, combos, results, edgeguarding, recovery, and mixups.

In other words, come at me, Falcons.

All of this... Is surpisingly within reason actually. I like the grouping of Pika, Samus, and Falcon. I agree they're closer than people imagine.

 

[Squirrell]

I'll let you by with saying Samus is better than Falcon (just based on recent tourny results), but what makes you think Pikachu is better than them? Why is Pikachu so overrated these days.. Axe gets 13th at Apex and 17th at TBH, 9th at Summit, 7th at DHW, etc. Meanwhile there were 3 Samus players in the top 16 at DHW, not to mention Plup got 4th at Summit AND EVO. If results speak, Samus >>> Pikachu.

EDIT: Not even gonna address the Pikachu>Falcon argument, that just seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Plunder]

I'll let you by with saying Samus is better than Falcon (just based on recent tourny results), but what makes you think Pikachu is better than them? Why is Pikachu so overrated these days.. Axe gets 13th at Apex and 17th at TBH, 9th at Summit, 7th at DHW, etc. Meanwhile there were 3 Samus players in the top 16 at DHW, not to mention Plup got 4th at Summit AND EVO. If results speak, Samus >>> Pikachu.

EDIT: Not even gonna address the Pikachu>Falcon argument, that just seems ridiculous to me.

lol this is hilarious.

Yup, Plup sure did get 4th at EVO.....all with Samus. Al the way. Plup = Samus confirmed.


I mean it's not like a Pikachu has beaten almost all the Gods (some of them more than one time). Let's go ahead and leave out all the very high placings Axe got going ALL PIKACHU at majors. Your post is more biased than Nazi propaganda during WWII.

 

[1MachGO]

Squirrell

You do realize that Axe is considered 7-9th best player in the world right? It is ridiculous to believe that Samus has better results because no Samus main is currently considered better than Axe.

Also, you got some info wrong. Axe got 7th at Summit; not 9th. You also conveniently forgot to mention his 7th place at Evo (among other strong placings).

 

[Spak]

I think people are overlooking the difference in MU information between Pika and Falcon. You are right that Falcon has had a lot of representation over the past few years, but that also means everyone knows how to play against Falcon really well. Not everyone has a good local Pika to practice with, so people would naturally have less knowledge on the character. Another example of this happening is in Plup V. Leffen, Leffen wanted to play friendlies with Plup's Samus because he needed to learn the MU. Plup turned him down and played Shiek in friendlies because he knew that he could beat one of the top 6 players in the world based on a slightly lower skill level and complete MU knowledge on Fox (vs Leffen's lacking MU knowledge on Samus).

 

[-ACE-]

Nah Ace I think people give Falcon too much cred, and it's gone on so long now that people don't even consider the 10 years of non-stop evidence against him.


We've already been through this. If you want to play that game, well then the opponent has to be on the same level with a Fox, Falco, or Sheik. This isn't a super godly Falcon against a less skilled top-tier - that is a pointless scenario.

Just take a second and think about an optimal Sheik vs an optimal Falcon.

Think about that. You want to talk about tech chases, 0-to-deaths, combos, edgeguarding? Who do you think has it like 300% easier? Who has more of a chance to escape and recover?

Un-winnable with equal skill and MU knowledge. Same with Fox and Falco IMO.

10 years of evidence means little when a game is constantly changing. Especially when falcon has not had the same representation, nor the same kind of representation (players trying hard to maximize the character), which means he is changing at a faster rate than many other characters currently.

The scenario you say is pointless is a scenario you created in fairy tale land. We are not talking about TAS. But if you want to, I'm really not sure who would win. Falcon's neutral is flat out better, his punish game is just nowhere near as easy/reliable. But at top level, the 0-death's that require top skill are seen just as often as sheik's ftilt to fair, so it really won't be that bad. Are you forgetting how well hax and wizzy have been able to handle m2k? You might think sheik spanks falcon worse at top level, but it's simply not true.

 

[Spak]

Also, at TAS levels, Falcon should always win. His movement is so good that he could punish pretty much any move in the game. The only caveat is if he were going up against spacies, they could just multishine into a draw.

 

[Avoin]

I think most should agree that falcon is underdeveloped in the same sense that icies are. Both were dropped by their best ever players and falcon is really being pushed well by those doing so. *s2j/wizzy*

Personally i think axe has peaked, and our falcon mains are far from doing so *not saying axe will not get better, just think those above him will get better faster*. Will falcon start to peak at where around axe is? possibly. but i think a huge goal in a character is "can it hit top 4/8" we already know falcon can, but can he do so more consistently? i think that answer is also a yes. i'd say it's more about top 8 showings than it is taking a tourny. because if you're hitting top 8 you have a chance at winning a tournament, but it's all about can you pull an upset on players that are just plain better than you more often than not, and even most top fox's can not do that. and it'll stick that way for the most part.

 

[-ACE-]

Gahtzu and gravy have been making strides too, especially with their control of falcon's movement. Their technical prowess is underrated.

 

[TDK]

Also, at TAS levels, Falcon should always win. His movement is so good that he could punish pretty much any move in the game. The only caveat is if he were going up against spacies, they could just multishine into a draw.

We're never going to get to TAS levels because TAS is impossible to achieve with mortal human hands.

 

[-ACE-]

True. Unwinnable is just too strong of a word for many matchups when you're talking about top level. Of course there are many matchups that I would agree are essentially unwinnable, but I don't think any falcon matchup is.

 

[Spak]

We're never going to get to TAS levels because TAS is impossible to achieve with mortal human hands.

I agree, but I'm just refuting the posts that are arguing for characters in hypothetical TAS-level play with the fact that Falcon wouldn't lose.

 

[1MachGO]

Leffen, Leffen wanted to play friendlies with Plup's Samus because he needed to learn the MU. Plup turned him down and played Shiek in friendlies because he knew that he could beat one of the top 6 players in the world based on a slightly lower skill level and complete MU knowledge on Fox (vs Leffen's lacking MU knowledge on Samus).

Funny you mention that because Plup went Samus on Leffen's stream pretty much all day to help him learn the matchup after dreamhack. It'll be interesting to see how Leffen fares next time he plays a Samus

I think most should agree that falcon is underdeveloped in the same sense that icies are. Both were dropped by their best ever players and falcon is really being pushed well by those doing so. *s2j/wizzy*

Personally i think axe has peaked, and our falcon mains are far from doing so *not saying axe will not get better, just think those above him will get better faster*. Will falcon start to peak at where around axe is? possibly. but i think a huge goal in a character is "can it hit top 4/8" we already know falcon can, but can he do so more consistently? i think that answer is also a yes. i'd say it's more about top 8 showings than it is taking a tourny. because if you're hitting top 8 you have a chance at winning a tournament, but it's all about can you pull an upset on players that are just plain better than you more often than not, and even most top fox's can not do that. and it'll stick that way for the most part.

I have to completely disagree with your assessment. Lets look at some the most important majors in the past 2 years. i.e. tournaments with large #s of top 25 in attendance and at least 4 of the top 6

Spoiler

Apex 2014: No Falcon in top 8
SKTAR 3: No
MLG 2014: No
KOC4: No
Evo 2014: No
BH4: No
Paragon ORL: No
Apex 2015: No
MVG Sandstorm: Yes, S2J got 7th
Press Start: No
Evo 2015: No
Paragon LA: No
HTC Throwdown: No
BH5: No
Summit: No
DHW: No

The only other two tournaments worth mentioning are Apex 2013 (Hax got 7th) and Evo 2013 (Hax got 9th). So, at most, Falcon has gotten 7th at two majors in the past 3 years which is pretty awful considering how many people are using him and how highly rated the character is. I don't think anyone can say "we know" he can get higher than 7th at high-stakes tournaments and I think you are downplaying the question of his consistency. So far, the only thing saying Falcon is stronger than Pikachu or Ice Climbers in the contemporary meta is unconditional faith in the Falcon. I would like to think he is better than the meta is demonstrating but I can't ignore the facts. He is clearly overrated and probably 9th best character in the game right now

 

[NS23]

Has the official 2015 Community Tier List been released yet?

 

[BauxFalcon]

1) Yes, Falcon is fast. Peach has a strong projectile, Float, and a slew of long-lasting, powerful aerials.
2) This applies to every top and high-tiered character in the game, alongside a lot of the mid tiers and even some bottom tiers.
4) Until it gets used, it doesn't count for as much.
5) This only applies if both Characters get sent off the Top above the stage. With a fast falling speed and awful recovery, Falcon isn't living Hard punishes if your opponent knows how to edgeguard. Even then, with Peach's floaty property, she can live off the side easily.
6) See 2.
7. So can almost every top tier. Fox and Falco have lasers, Sheik and Marth have spacing tools galore, Jigglypuff and Peach have aerial conversions and spacing aerials, Peach also has turnips, and with IC's, it's one grab and you're done.

VS Falcon, it only takes one grab and proper tech chasing to liquefy a stock.
You don't need a good projectile to be good.
Falcon outmaneuvers most top tiers.
I like to say that he's tied with peach, but I really think that he's better, he just hasn't had as many good players backing him up recently. Armada is literally the only consistently good peach around.

 

[TheAcornDestroyer]

Hi I'm a newbie at melee and smashboards, can anybody tell me how to beat Armada?

 

[TDK]

Armada is literally the only consistently good peach around.

So it's 1 to 0 then?

 

[TDK]

Has the official 2015 Community Tier List been released yet?

Not yet. Which you might have figured out because we're still arguing here.

 

[Spak]

Hi I'm a newbie at melee and smashboards, can anybody tell me how to beat Armada?

Git gud.