Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[KlWl]

I can't get behind donkey kong being better than ganon, though i can see the links being ahead of him probably.

But honestly from 14-18 it's all pretty arguable. Close.

Falco being 4th is a bit odd. and IC's should definitely not be that high over peach.

14-18 I did not put a huge amount of thought into. They are all pretty nonviable characters so its difficult to accurately scale them.

I put DK over Ganondorf because i feel like Donkey Kong is underused and has a lot more potential, only being showed by Green Ranger mostly. I'm honestly surprised that Ganondorf has had the amount of success that he has, considering how slow he is.

I put Falco 4th because of his lousy recovery. Another reason I put him at fourth is because his odd jump heights, as his full hop is the highest in the game, making it hard to combo with him. Pillaring is his main source of comboing and with good DI, pillaring can be rendered useless. He is still very good and has a fantastic neutral game, but can have trouble killing at higher percents if making reads is not your strong suit.

Lastly, I placed the Ice Climbers over Peach because of a similar story with the Ganondorf/DK. I feel like Ice Climbers are underused and have such a strong grab game that if more Ice Climber mains improved their approaching, stocks could be taken very quickly.

 

[KlWl]

aMSa and Shroomed's Doc have placed higher than any Ganon has ever currently placed. More representation ≠ that character is better. We're also starting to see some more of Mango's Mario and Westballz DK. And aMSa isn't the only good Yoshi. There's still Leffen and Vectorman.

On a side note about Sheik and Marth, Sheik has better MU against Peach than Marth imo.

I'm not saying that more representation means that the character is better, I'm just saying that IMO placings can't really show the true amount of skill that a character has, and that the reason the people like to place Peach and Doctor Mario high in tier lists is that they overestimate how good those characters are by watching very skilled players like Armada and Shroomed. Think of it as a science experiment, and more trials and test subjects means the more accurate results.

 

[pichuplayer]

Dat double posting doe

 

[ChrisWithAk]

Yo Fortress | Sveet what is the estimated time of release for this tier list you have been gathering data from?

 

[pichuplayer]

Yo Fortress | Sveet what is the estimated time of release for this tier list you have been gathering data from?

....dude he's only evaluated half the voters (more now most likley) though if i had to guess sometime this week

 

[Avoin]

I put Yoshi pretty low because the only player who really uses him to his full potential is aMSa, and even he does not place in the top 20 IMO. I feel like Icies would tie Falcon but there had to be a tiebreaker and i like icies more so yeah I definitely think Sheik is above Marth because Sheik has overall better matchups besides Peach and Icies. DK, Mario, and Link don't have much tournament representation and i feel like the DK meta is more developed than the other characters' meta so i put him higher. this could be inaccurate though



Ganon has more tournament representation than Yoshi or Doc (Kage, Bizz, and Eikelmann all play him, aMSa is the only good Yoshi, and Shroomed quit Doc) so i felt like Ganon would be overall better if so many more people used him. Young Link has better matchups than Link does and is good against floaties (no top players really used Link but Armada and Axe used to use Young Link). The Link meta is very undeveloped because nobody plays him, which is why Young Link seems better to me.

Look up SAUS - Link main who has beaten kage/ the moon
j666 - beaten lucky/3-0 on hugs
germ - beat tai and i'm sure many others.

Link meta is actually wider than young link. armada no longer uses young link as well as axe.

j666/SAUS are currently relevant and active players who beat high ranking players very recently.

 

[Avoin]

I meant by multiple players. We do not have enough top players for Doc to really see if his character has potential or if it was just because of how good Shroomed is.

i never understood this argument.

aren't good players supposed to play characters to make them seen at a high level/their potential?

 

[Raize]

aMSa and Shroomed's Doc have placed higher than any Ganon has ever currently placed. More representation ≠ that character is better. We're also starting to see some more of Mango's Mario and Westballz DK. And aMSa isn't the only good Yoshi. There's still Leffen and Vectorman.

On a side note about Sheik and Marth, Sheik has better MU against Peach than Marth imo.

If the characters were really better, then there would be more people playing them. Currently aMSa is the only Yoshi in top 100 but there are 2 or 3 Ganons in top 100. Leffen pretty much only uses Yoshi to sandbag during tourney, and V3ctorman doesn't place as high as the other Ganons. also shroomed quit doc so nobody good uses doc anymore

Look up SAUS - Link main who has beaten kage/ the moon
j666 - beaten lucky/3-0 on hugs
germ - beat tai and i'm sure many others.

Link meta is actually wider than young link. armada no longer uses young link as well as axe.

j666/SAUS are currently relevant and active players who beat high ranking players very recently.

Armada: beat HBox with Young Link consistently until his switch to Fox
Axe: beat ChuDat, MacD, and almost Fly Amanita with Young Link
I bet if either of them played any of SAUS, j666, and Germ they would be victorious.

 

[Dire Creeper]

If the characters were really better, then there would be more people playing them. Currently aMSa is the only Yoshi in top 100 but there are 2 or 3 Ganons in top 100. Leffen pretty much only uses Yoshi to sandbag during tourney, and V3ctorman doesn't place as high as the other Ganons. also shroomed quit doc so nobody good uses doc anymore

Less people play Yoshi because he's much harder to learn and use than Ganon. You're also looking at the 2014 top 100, which is outdated. In this top 100 however, it doesn't matter if aMSa is the only Yoshi in it because he's placed higher in tournaments and played better than all three of the Ganons on here (not to mention he's ranked higher than every Ganon on this list). The same goes for Axe's Pikachu. People stopped playing Doc so much because they're discouraged from Shroomed quitting Doc. Throughout his Doc era, Shroomed has outplaced and outplayed every Ganon (and that reign still stands stronger to this day). Unlike Doc, Yoshi and Pikachu, Ganon has never gotten into a recent national top 8.

I'm not trying to hate on Ganon (heck I love using him), but Doc and Yoshi are both better than Ganon, and not just because of their placements. Like I said, more representation ≠ that character is better. If everybody stopped using Fox and started using Kirby, does that make Kirby better?

 

[Comet7]

results are cool but they aren't the end all and be all for what should make a character good or bad. they're simply evidence for why you can think certain things.

also otg used doc semi recently, though he quit doc from what i've heard. velocity is also done with him. i should have asked to play his doc when i had the chance...

 

[Avoin]

If the characters were really better, then there would be more people playing them. Currently aMSa is the only Yoshi in top 100 but there are 2 or 3 Ganons in top 100. Leffen pretty much only uses Yoshi to sandbag during tourney, and V3ctorman doesn't place as high as the other Ganons. also shroomed quit doc so nobody good uses doc anymore



Armada: beat HBox with Young Link consistently until his switch to Fox
Axe: beat ChuDat, MacD, and almost Fly Amanita with Young Link
I bet if either of them played any of SAUS, j666, and Germ they would be victorious.

not true. tier list deters people from playing lower characters 9/10 times and links spot isn't pretty, potentially because past lack of dedicated mains, but more are starting to flourish and prove their ability.

armada/axe used the character for a counterpick, and they're some of the best in the world, so obviously if a counterpick was used they had a good chance of winning against said character.

and yes of course they would win, player quality is a thing lol.

Link has some pretty good matchups as well such as marth/peach that are very close to 50-50 and potentially winning and the rest of the top tier not being terribly awful *though fox/falcon are pretty rough*. just nobody uses link as a counter pick, and as it turns out young link has lost that title.


all i'm saying is that link MAINS are starting to beat very relevant players in not just counterpick matchups. I don't know one young link main that is making these strides. I think the only ones these days is kokiri soldier and he isn't very relevant at all.

Ganon yes does have kage/bizzaro which is a pretty good counter argument, not saying link players are currently better, but i think in the near future we will have links competing in top 100. they're already getting in the area, showing that they can beat pretty top talent.

In the end, tier list placement means very little to me. All i care about is what the character can do in matchups and in competitive play, and i'm glad we're seeing advancements in this aspect. We're seeing a lot of low/mid tier evolutions these past few years and it's amazing for the game and diversity.

 

[KlWl]

i never understood this argument.

aren't good players supposed to play characters to make them seen at a high level/their potential?

Yes but most top players can make any character look good. I think of it as a experiment where more players give you more accurate of how much skill is player skill aside character skill. It also gets rid of people putting up the argument of whether the character is a gimmick or not. But i wasnt trying to make it as an argument, i just want to get things more accurate

 

[Avoin]

Yes but most top players can make any character look good. I think of it as a experiment where more players give you more accurate of how much skill is player skill aside character skill. It also gets rid of people putting up the argument of whether the character is a gimmick or not. But i wasnt trying to make it as an argument, i just want to get things more accurate

I don't think that matters.

no matter who is playing the character, if they mained it and made it their own, they show the potential of said character.

there's only one ganon in like the top 40 players, though that means kage could probably do better with other characters, point is he's top 40 in the world with said character.

 

[KlWl]

I don't think that matters.

no matter who is playing the character, if they mained it and made it their own, they show the potential of said character.

there's only one ganon in like the top 40 players, though that means kage could probably do better with other characters, point is he's top 40 in the world with said character.

The maximum potential for each character is not only what is shown by top players. That is the maximum at the given moment and the more people tinker with characters the more that potential increases. Potential isnt a something that can be calculated, its just opinion. Thats what tier lists are all about, opinions and votes on who the best characters are. There is no definitive tier list and it changes, evolves, and grows all the time

 

[sadweather]

Yeah, I think that characters shouldn't be placed by how many people play them, it should be on how well they perform. I don't ever see a ganon get very far in big tournaments, even getting overshadowed by Docs, Yoshi, and Luigi.

Also no one answered my question: Should Pikachu always be higher than Samus, or is it a toss up?

 

[Spak]

I've always thought that Pika should be higher than Samus, but I have little to no Samus experience and have used Pika in tourney before. With that said, I took a stock off of ESAM's Samus in bracket while having little knowledge in the MU, so I tend to think that Samus should be a bit lower than Pika.

EDIT: I fought ESAM using Falcon, not Pika.

 

[sadweather]

I've always thought that Pika should be higher than Samus, but I have little to no Samus experience and have used Pika in tourney before. With that said, I took a stock off of ESAM's Samus in bracket while having little knowledge in the MU, so I tend to think that Samus should be a bit lower than Pika.

EDIT: I fought ESAM using Falcon, not Pika.

Ok cool, thank you. I put Samus higher on my tier list , but looking back on it, I think Pika should be a bit higher.

 

[pichuplayer]

Ok cool, thank you. I put Samus higher on my tier list , but looking back on it, I think Pika should be a bit higher.

Pika should be 9th i think thats established i think the characters established are: top 8, Pika, Samus, Luigi, Yoshi everything after is still up for grabs

 

[Spak]

Pika should be 9th i think thats established i think the characters established are: top 8, Pika, Samus, Luigi, Yoshi everything after is still up for grabs

I still think that Yoshi should be below Doc and (possibly) Ganon.

 

[pichuplayer]

I still think that Yoshi should be below Doc and (possibly) Ganon.

in your opinion but Yoshi i think gets more results than Doc and Gannon which is why i think he is a solid character

 

[Spak]

in your opinion but Yoshi i think gets more results than Doc and Gannon which is why i think he is a solid character

Yoshi has had subpar tourney results; the only reason people have been hyping Yoshi so much is because of aMSa. The only other notable Yoshi main is V3ctorman, who got 126th at EVO.

Up until last year, Shroomed was getting terrific results with Doc (no lower than 17th, numerous single-diget and podium finishes at large tournies), but decided to switch mains to his secondary because he got 19th at Apex. He still pulls out his Doc for some harder MUs, but assuming aMSa and Shroomed cancel each-other out (so we ignore both), Doc has had overall beter results than Yoshi. Velocity, for example, got 7th at Shots Fired, 17th at Super Nebulois 3, and is 3rd on Philidelphia's PR.

I think Ganon could go either way. So many people main Ganon (in comparison to the fairly even number of Doc vs Yoshi mains) that comparing a player pool of Yoshi and Ganon would be unfair.

 

[pichuplayer]

Yoshi has had subpar tourney results; the only reason people have been hyping Yoshi so much is because of aMSa. The only other notable Yoshi main is V3ctorman, who got 126th at EVO.

Up until last year, Shroomed was getting terrific results with Doc (no lower than 17th, numerous single-diget and podium finishes at large tournies), but decided to switch mains to his secondary because he got 19th at Apex. He still pulls out his Doc for some harder MUs, but assuming aMSa and Shroomed cancel each-other out (so we ignore both), Doc has had overall beter results than Yoshi. Velocity, for example, got 7th at Shots Fired, 17th at Super Nebulois 3, and is 3rd on Philidelphia's PR.

I think Ganon could go either way. So many people main Ganon (in comparison to the fairly even number of Doc vs Yoshi mains) that comparing a player pool of Yoshi and Ganon would be unfair.

when you put it that way i guess your right meh i guess we would have to look at the last two years to decide this list (because the last one was 2013) so it could go either way

 

[Avoin]

if it helps link case at all just to add on to it, j666 got 65th/33rd at evo 2013/14

he went to evo 2015 and was just outside of top 64. in the 70-80 range probably, not sure exactly where it landed him.

http://evo2015.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_g107.html on this bracket, he's jesson martinez. somebody who's better at brackets than i am could probably figure this out.

SAUS was there as well. he got out a bit earlier than him, probably still in the 128 spectrum

http://evo2015.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_g109.html

Derek langlois/SAUS, again not sure how to determine placement. i'm bad at it lol.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I'm all for Doc being higher than yoshi, but I can't see Ganon being better than Yoshi. Ganon just seems to stagnant. All Ganon mains have been placing roughly the same for the last few years, where as Amsa has been overall improving.

I think the thing that hurts Yoshi's placing the most is he has one of the roughest learning curves. Just to be acceptable as Yoshi you need lots of tech. I'm not saying other characters don't require tech, but in the mid tier range I think Yoshi requires the most. Ganon on the other hand isn't nearly as demanding, so you end up seeing more Ganons as a result. Going off of the argument of player representation really has a lot of bias, since certain characters benefit a lot more off of this.

To truly rank a character I believe you need to rank their max ranking, and the consistency to which they achieve this. If you look back at tournaments the last few years, how often does Ganon appear in the top 32? What about top 16? At least a Yoshi has gotten there a couple times. However, back in Shroomed's day, he placed similar to Amsa, but with more consistency. That's my arguement for Doc over Yoshi, but Yoshi over Ganon.

 

[Dire Creeper]

I'm all for Doc being higher than yoshi, but I can't see Ganon being better than Yoshi. Ganon just seems to stagnant. All Ganon mains have been placing roughly the same for the last few years, where as Amsa has been overall improving.

I think the thing that hurts Yoshi's placing the most is he has one of the roughest learning curves. Just to be acceptable as Yoshi you need lots of tech. I'm not saying other characters don't require tech, but in the mid tier range I think Yoshi requires the most. Ganon on the other hand isn't nearly as demanding, so you end up seeing more Ganons as a result. Going off of the argument of player representation really has a lot of bias, since certain characters benefit a lot more off of this.

To truly rank a character I believe you need to rank their max ranking, and the consistency to which they achieve this. If you look back at tournaments the last few years, how often does Ganon appear in the top 32? What about top 16? At least a Yoshi has gotten there a couple times. However, back in Shroomed's day, he placed similar to Amsa, but with more consistency. That's my arguement for Doc over Yoshi, but Yoshi over Ganon.

Completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Raize]

Well the thing is that if there is only one good player of a character, it's pretty hard to tell if the character is good or if the player is just abnormally good with the character. Take Taj, for example. He got really good results with Mewtwo but Mewtwo is still low tier.

 

[Avoin]

I'm all for Doc being higher than yoshi, but I can't see Ganon being better than Yoshi. Ganon just seems to stagnant. All Ganon mains have been placing roughly the same for the last few years, where as Amsa has been overall improving.

I think the thing that hurts Yoshi's placing the most is he has one of the roughest learning curves. Just to be acceptable as Yoshi you need lots of tech. I'm not saying other characters don't require tech, but in the mid tier range I think Yoshi requires the most. Ganon on the other hand isn't nearly as demanding, so you end up seeing more Ganons as a result. Going off of the argument of player representation really has a lot of bias, since certain characters benefit a lot more off of this.

To truly rank a character I believe you need to rank their max ranking, and the consistency to which they achieve this. If you look back at tournaments the last few years, how often does Ganon appear in the top 32? What about top 16? At least a Yoshi has gotten there a couple times. However, back in Shroomed's day, he placed similar to Amsa, but with more consistency. That's my arguement for Doc over Yoshi, but Yoshi over Ganon.

Pretty much.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I personally think M2 should be higher on the tier list, but that's not really important. To me, even if one player is the only notable main of a character, they should be a good data point if they are consistently doing well, and have so for while. The whole point of the tier list to me is to determine viability. If someone places well consistently, they show the character is viable and isn't just gimmicks. Regardless if the player is good, they show a character is usable if they place well.

 

[Avoin]

Well the thing is that if there is only one good player of a character, it's pretty hard to tell if the character is good or if the player is just abnormally good with the character. Take Taj, for example. He got really good results with Mewtwo but Mewtwo is still low tier.

a lot of players can be good with a certain character. It's the lack of representation and dedication that makes it seem like very few people can/will be good with certain mid/low tiers. nobody plays them.

Honestly in the near future there will be a lot more people good with a lot more characters. that's my hope at least, it sure is looking that way though.

 

[sadweather]

I personally think M2 should be higher on the tier list, but that's not really important. To me, even if one player is the only notable main of a character, they should be a good data point if they are consistently doing well, and have so for while. The whole point of the tier list to me is to determine viability. If someone places well consistently, they show the character is viable and isn't just gimmicks. Regardless if the player is good, they show a character is usable if they place well.

What place would you say M2 is? I have him neck and neck with G&W.

 

[MurphyPrime]

For me, C tier behind DK. So not a huge jump.

 

[Squirrell]

Disregard posted in wrong tab

 

[SethaEP]

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Shiek
5. Puff
6. Peach
7. IC's
8. Falcon

A Tier
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. Dr. Mario
13. Mario

B Tier
14. Ganon
15. Yoshi
16. DK
17. Young Link
18. Link
19. Mr. G&W
20. Roy
21. Mewtwo

F Tier
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

 

[KlWl]

Yeah, I think that characters shouldn't be placed by how many people play them, it should be on how well they perform. I don't ever see a ganon get very far in big tournaments, even getting overshadowed by Docs, Yoshi, and Luigi.

Also no one answered my question: Should Pikachu always be higher than Samus, or is it a toss up?

It's pretty much a toss up.

 

[pichuplayer]

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Shiek
5. Puff
6. Peach
7. IC's
8. Falcon

A Tier
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. Dr. Mario
13. Mario

B Tier
14. Ganon
15. Yoshi
16. DK
17. Young Link
18. Link
19. Mr. G&W
20. Roy
21. Mewtwo

F Tier
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

hold up Yoshi worse than mario? maybe gannon but Mario?

 

[-ACE-]

It's appalling that people can't spell Ganon lol

 

[gmBottles]

It's appalling that people can't spell Ganon lol

Every time someone spells our Dark Lord's name as Gannon, I cry. It's so easy to spell right!

 

[pichuplayer]

Every time someone spells our Dark Lord's name as Gannon, I cry. It's so easy to spell right!

XD sorry i was in a rush to type it

 

[KaizorOne]

Samus is > Falcon and DK is > Link.

 

[Spak]

Samus is > Falcon

I don't think there is any evidence to back this up... If there is, please cite it and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

and DK is > Link.

I think that Link is better based off of recent placements in-tournament, but this is more debatable than Samus being better than Falcon.