Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[sadweather]

If you do play him for more than 30 mins, you realize thats rlly ALL he has tho :O
Side B isnt terrible tho.

and really all Kirby has is bair and 50 different suicide tactics, most of them the opponent can break out of, so its a toss up between Kirby and Bowser.

 

[Dire Creeper]

If you do play him for more than 30 mins, you realize thats rlly ALL he has tho :O
Side B isnt terrible tho.

I actually play Bowser quite a bit and I can add on:

• Bowser actually has better ground and air mobility than Kirby.
• He has the biggest shield in the game. This combined w/ up b means he pretty much can't be shield pressured (there's even a 1 frame window on frame perfect multishines for an up b oos).
• Bowser actually has really good throws. Forward throw can set up an edgeguard or kill at high %, back throw is closer to a kill throw, up throw has set knockback and lets him always follow up, and down throw allows for techchasing on several characters. His grab range is also decent.
• His projectile may be pretty bad, but it helps against low recoveries.
• Bair is good off-ledge and for edgeguard mix-ups as well as some of his other aerials (except dair, which is abysmal. His nair is pretty much a better dair).

 

[Comet7]

bowser's fair is like sheik's but woth worse frame data. still good, but not amazing.

kirby can duck under marth's grab and has up tilt to anything, including up air which can kill (not always when it combos, but it's still a solid kill move).

and kirby has a legitimate ground game. bowser moves at brawl speed so he doesn't have that.

to above poster spacies have to be precise with pressure but that's assuming bowser gets the frame perfect up b. even when bowser hits the up b, the most he gets is platform tech chase opportunity, or else it's 12 or so percent and we're back to bowser neutral.

and bowser doesn't even have the frame data to match kirby's mobility.

 

[sadweather]

Also, Kirby has the copy ability, which is usually useless, but C Rabbit has proven Falco's lasers and Sheik's needles to be useful, and there is always the hilarity or Swallowcide (might I add, bowser is the easiest character to use swallowcide on)

 

[PracticalTAS]

Hey guys, I feel bad saying this, but I dont think I'll be able to release the official list this week. I am more than half of the way done sifting through voters, and I could probably have the data compiled by the end of day tomorrow, but I won't have time to create a proper post for the tier list. I'm sorry.

To make it up to you all, here is some preliminary information to bask in

https://imgur.com/1wghcRT

The tier divisions should take the variance in the distributions into account, not just the means. See this link. If you're doing this in excel, here's what you want to do, assuming your data for characters is on sheet1 (Fox is in 1:1, Falco 2:2, etc.) and you're doing these calculations on sheet2:

http://imgur.com/jLFqsAJ

Column G will have numbers between 0 and 0.5 if all of the characters are ordered by mean, and is the chance that a character actually has a better true score than the character above it. You should set a threshold (depending on the numbers you see and the number of tiers you want to have), and any place you see a number lower than that threshold, that character is in a different tier than the character above it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like the idea of involving higher level statistical theory to this list, but I do not think it is necessary for creating tier divisions. Plus the additional coding would push this project further back. I do not see a reason why significant changes in mean values cannot be used.

 

[PracticalTAS]

I like the idea of involving higher level statistical theory to this list, but I do not think it is necessary for creating tier divisions. Plus the additional coding would push this project further back. I do not see a reason why significant changes in mean values cannot be used.

Significant differences in means absolutely can be used, but they don't tell the whole story.

And adding this really won't be hard. PM me the excel sheet you're using and I can send it back with the variance stuff added in a few minutes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd rather not do that for a couple of reasons. Plus I dont think it will be as easy as you think it will be.

 

[KlWl]

S Tier (Will win most tournaments)

1.
2.
3.
4.

A Tier (Solid characters with capability of winning tournaments)

5.
6.
7.
8.

B Tier (Solid characters with slightly less capability to win tournaments)

8.
9.
10.
11.

C Tier (Characters that have potential, but none of which has been shown)

12.
13.
14. /
15.
16.

D Tier (Not very viable in tournament play)

17.
18.
19.

F Tier (Not viable in tournament play)

20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

 

[Avoin]

S Tier (Will win most tournaments)

1.
2.
3.
4.

A Tier (Solid characters with capability of winning tournaments)

5.
6.
7.
8.

B Tier (Solid characters with slightly less capability to win tournaments)

8.
9.
10.
11.

C Tier (Characters that have potential, but none of which has been shown)

12.
13.
14. /
15.
16.

D Tier (Not very viable in tournament play)

17.
18.
19.

F Tier (Not viable in tournament play)

20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

I can't get behind donkey kong being better than ganon, though i can see the links being ahead of him probably.

But honestly from 14-18 it's all pretty arguable. Close.

Falco being 4th is a bit odd. and IC's should definitely not be that high over peach.

 

[C9_VT]

This is the community tier list we made on r/ssbm

S TIer
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon

A Tier
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Yoshi

B Tier
12. Luigi
13. Dr. Mario
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario
16. Young Link

C Tier
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mr. Game & Watch

F Tier
20. Ness
21. Roy
22. Mewtwo
23. Zelda
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

for the most part i agree but i would think dr.mario would be higher then pickachu and yoshi

 

[pichuplayer]

for the most part i agree but i would think dr.mario would be higher then pickachu and yoshi

why? the latter have better results than the former

 

[sadweather]

Spoiler: Here is my Tier list.

I made this a while ago and pretty quickly, so not everything is 100% thought out (B and C tiers)

 

[pichuplayer]

Spoiler: Here is my Tier list.

I made this a while ago and pretty quickly, so not everything is 100% thought out (B and C tiers)

dude this is pretty good i do have some complaints but i'll hold my toungue

 

[sadweather]

dude this is pretty good i do have some complaints but i'll hold my toungue

Say it! Discussion is what forums are for

 

[Dire Creeper]

C Tier (Characters that have potential, but none of which has been shown)

12.

Shouldn't this mean Doc belongs in B Tier? His potential has definitely been shown mostly because of Shroomed.

why? the latter have better results than the former

Doc has actually had better results than Yoshi. Pikachu's results aren't necessarily better, he just has far more of them.

 

[pichuplayer]

Say it! Discussion is what forums are for

it's baised but ok Bowser should be better than kirby and Pichu should be higher than M2

 

[C-SAF]

Shouldn't this mean Doc belongs in B Tier? His potential has definitely been shown mostly because of Shroomed.


Doc has actually had better results than Yoshi. Pikachu's results aren't necessarily better, he just has far more of them.

Honestly, the potential of Yoshi is pretty amazing. My region has the best Yoshi in Canada in it and the options available to Yoshi dwarf doc. People can say its theorietical or whatever, but I think this is the first era where people are technical enough to start practicing it seriously. Im not sure how long people should hold onto shroomed. He dropped the character to improve and the game has changed a ton since he has.

 

[sadweather]

it's baised but ok Bowser should be better than kirby and Pichu should be higher than M2

We have been discussing the low tier placings, and its still a toss up. I haven't played much bowser, and I know kirby pretty well, so it's biased on my half as well. Although Pichu being better than mewtwo is quesionable, though. I feel as if pichu doesn't have as much potential as mewtwo. Pichu really is entirely based around his nair, not giving him much options. Mewtwo on the other hand, has more options with his different moves. Although it only my opinions, and again, these low tiers are still a complete toss up.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Alright, Here's a new tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Would appriacte feedback, whether good or bad.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I would argue Luigi is better than Yoshi at this point, just because more players for Luigi and only a few majors for Yoshi. Also why is Doc worse than Ganon? Doc seems to have everything Ganon has (except for range) but also has better mobility and combos.

 

[sadweather]

Alright, Here's a new tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Would appriacte feedback, whether good or bad.

My tier list is literally a few posts above, but I'll keep my suggestions only to the once that i think are major:

I feel like with the amount of good shiek players makes it deserve to be in s tier.
I also agree with MurphyPrime that Doc should be ahead of Ganon, but I do think that yoshi vs Luigi is a toss up between the two.
Roy should be a bit lower, and Pichu a bit higher.

Other than that, your tier list isnt bad!

 

[MurphyPrime]

It honestly isn't that big a deal. It's hardly a difference with Yoshi to Weegee.

I'm curious though, what is a bit lower for Roy? Under M2 or under Ness?

I agree completely with the tier list otherwise.

 

[Wintermelon43]

My tier list is literally a few posts above, but I'll keep my suggestions only to the once that i think are major:

I feel like with the amount of good shiek players makes it deserve to be in s tier.
I also agree with MurphyPrime that Doc should be ahead of Ganon, but I do think that yoshi vs Luigi is a toss up between the two.
Roy should be a bit lower, and Pichu a bit higher.

Other than that, your tier list isnt bad!

Pichu can't be higher since it harms itself.

 

[pichuplayer]

Pichu can't be higher since it harms itself.

he could if you believe really hard

 

[sadweather]

It honestly isn't that big a deal. It's hardly a difference with Yoshi to Weegee.

I'm curious though, what is a bit lower for Roy? Under M2 or under Ness?

I agree completely with the tier list otherwise.

I had him above Ness and under Zelda.

Pichu can't be higher since it harms itself.

Saying he is bad just because he harms itself with certain moves is silly. Pichu has a great recovery and his nair is really good as well.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I had him above Ness and under Zelda.


Saying he is bad just because he harms itself with certain moves is silly. Pichu has a great recovery and his nair is really good as well.

A great recovery.... that hurts him.

The problem with Pichu is that he hurts himself for trying to live, KO, or use the right attack in many situations, which results in its death.

 

[sadweather]

A great recovery.... that hurts him.

The problem with Pichu is that he hurts himself for trying to live, KO, or use the right attack in many situations, which results in its death.

ugh, yes, but its so minimal i doesn't make that much of a difference, pichu is light so he dies pretty quick, forcing a strategy on the user to be careful and to take as little damage as possible. what I mean by that is Pichu plays carefully, so the added damage comes up infrequently so it doesn't make a difference. just watch a skilled Pichu play and I can assure that its better than Ness, Roy and Zelda.

 

[C9_VT]

why? the latter have better results than the former

idk man

 

[Dire Creeper]

ugh, yes, but its so minimal i doesn't make that much of a difference, pichu is light so he dies pretty quick, forcing a strategy on the user to be careful and to take as little damage as possible. what I mean by that is Pichu plays carefully, so the added damage comes up infrequently so it doesn't make a difference. just watch a skilled Pichu play and I can assure that its better than Ness, Roy and Zelda.

Also this.

 

[sadweather]

Also this.

I'm more of a fan of

 

[Raize]

Here is mine:

 

[sadweather]

Here is mine:

Um,its got a few oddities.
Yoshi that low? Really? And icies above falcon and shiek above marth? Dk above mario and link? Not so sure about this. But, im open to ideas, so explain!

 

[Avoin]

Here is mine:

Um,its got a few oddities.
Yoshi that low? Really? And icies above falcon and shiek above marth? Dk above mario and link? Not so sure about this. But, im open to ideas, so explain!

Okay well, icies above falcon is a toss up, i can see either.

i start to have an issue with ganon being above yoshi/doc and dk being over mario/link.

9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. doc
13. yoshi
14. mario
15. - here is where issues arise and honestly, i think Link-YL-Ganon are kinda in a 3 way tie. All have a pretty okay match up line with some pretty bad ones among a few top tiers. Links a bit unexplored at the highest levels but i see much more potential in them.

18. donkey kong

under here, is usually largely disagreed on but essentially it's nothing to really be too concerned with, all these characters have amazingly gaping flaws that stop them from being usable in any other fashion but at mid level - high level players just messing around in pools. None of these will probably ever pass DK or any other character IMO.

 

[sadweather]

Okay well, icies above falcon is a toss up, i can see either.

i start to have an issue with ganon being above yoshi/doc and dk being over mario/link.

9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. doc
13. yoshi
14. mario
15. - here is where issues arise and honestly, i think Link-YL-Ganon are kinda in a 3 way tie. All have a pretty okay match up line with some pretty bad ones among a few top tiers. Links a bit unexplored at the highest levels but i see much more potential in them.

18. donkey kong

under here, is usually largely disagreed on but essentially it's nothing to really be too concerned with, all these characters have amazingly gaping flaws that stop them from being usable in any other fashion but at mid level - high level players just messing around in pools. None of these will probably ever pass DK or any other character IMO.

Yeah, i guess icies and falcon are closer than i thought. I guess im just used to falcon being higher.
I always have had dk at 18, kind of as the gatekeeper to the crappy low tiers. I forgot about doc as well, since usuall have him under yoshi and luigi, but still above ganon.

 

[Raize]

Um,its got a few oddities.
Yoshi that low? Really? And icies above falcon and shiek above marth? Dk above mario and link? Not so sure about this. But, im open to ideas, so explain!

I put Yoshi pretty low because the only player who really uses him to his full potential is aMSa, and even he does not place in the top 20 IMO. I feel like Icies would tie Falcon but there had to be a tiebreaker and i like icies more so yeah I definitely think Sheik is above Marth because Sheik has overall better matchups besides Peach and Icies. DK, Mario, and Link don't have much tournament representation and i feel like the DK meta is more developed than the other characters' meta so i put him higher. this could be inaccurate though

Okay well, icies above falcon is a toss up, i can see either.

i start to have an issue with ganon being above yoshi/doc and dk being over mario/link.

9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. doc
13. yoshi
14. mario
15. - here is where issues arise and honestly, i think Link-YL-Ganon are kinda in a 3 way tie. All have a pretty okay match up line with some pretty bad ones among a few top tiers. Links a bit unexplored at the highest levels but i see much more potential in them.

18. donkey kong

under here, is usually largely disagreed on but essentially it's nothing to really be too concerned with, all these characters have amazingly gaping flaws that stop them from being usable in any other fashion but at mid level - high level players just messing around in pools. None of these will probably ever pass DK or any other character IMO.

Ganon has more tournament representation than Yoshi or Doc (Kage, Bizz, and Eikelmann all play him, aMSa is the only good Yoshi, and Shroomed quit Doc) so i felt like Ganon would be overall better if so many more people used him. Young Link has better matchups than Link does and is good against floaties (no top players really used Link but Armada and Axe used to use Young Link). The Link meta is very undeveloped because nobody plays him, which is why Young Link seems better to me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I feel like if you're gonna make a tier list you should at least comment on each character you are placing and why you are placing them there. Otherwise it's really hard to determine your reasoning just from looking at a list and a lot of people might get the wrong idea. As long as you explain yourself when you post your tier list I feel like it can bring forth better discussion instead of questions like "Why is X above Y on your tier list?"

 

[sadweather]

I feel like if you're gonna make a tier list you should at least comment on each character you are placing and why you are placing them there. Otherwise it's really hard to determine your reasoning just from looking at a list and a lot of people might get the wrong idea. As long as you explain yourself when you post your tier list I feel like it can bring forth better discussion instead of questions like "Why is X above Y on your tier list?"

Oooh. Thats a good idea. I might do that with my tier list.

On an unrelated note, should pikachu always be above samus? I had samus ahead of pikachu due to mainly more representation and its good history against fox, but i'm probably wrong.

 

[KlWl]

Shouldn't this mean Doc belongs in B Tier? His potential has definitely been shown mostly because of Shroomed.


Doc has actually had better results than Yoshi. Pikachu's results aren't necessarily better, he just has far more of them.

I meant by multiple players. We do not have enough top players for Doc to really see if his character has potential or if it was just because of how good Shroomed is.

 

[Dire Creeper]

I put Yoshi pretty low because the only player who really uses him to his full potential is aMSa, and even he does not place in the top 20 IMO. I feel like Icies would tie Falcon but there had to be a tiebreaker and i like icies more so yeah I definitely think Sheik is above Marth because Sheik has overall better matchups besides Peach and Icies. DK, Mario, and Link don't have much tournament representation and i feel like the DK meta is more developed than the other characters' meta so i put him higher. this could be inaccurate though



Ganon has more tournament representation than Yoshi or Doc (Kage, Bizz, and Eikelmann all play him, aMSa is the only good Yoshi, and Shroomed quit Doc) so i felt like Ganon would be overall better if so many more people used him. Young Link has better matchups than Link does and is good against floaties (no top players really used Link but Armada and Axe used to use Young Link). The Link meta is very undeveloped because nobody plays him, which is why Young Link seems better to me.

aMSa and Shroomed's Doc have placed higher than any Ganon has ever currently placed. More representation ≠ that character is better. We're also starting to see some more of Mango's Mario and Westballz DK. And aMSa isn't the only good Yoshi. There's still Leffen and Vectorman.

On a side note about Sheik and Marth, Sheik has better MU against Peach than Marth imo.