Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Dolla Pills]

The only thing I'd hope for is that Ness and Zelda swap. Everything else I can deal with. Dr. Mario I think its more viable than Yoshi, but given recent results I don't expect most people to remember that.

After playing G&W for so long I'd say it's fair to have him tied with Roy at upper E tier, either one could be above the other. It's interesting that the consensus puts both above Mewtwo. As for as results go Mewtwo has shown more ability than Roy or G&W, but the whole E tier isn't worth arguing over 1-2 spots at the end of the day.

I would argue that Roy's reverse blazer is worth extensively arguing over

 

[Plunder]

I would argue that Roy's reverse blazer is worth extensively arguing over

Give it a few months or maybe even weeks I'm sure someone new to this game will discover it and probably bring it up. You shall have your argument again, as with most arguments on this site.

 

[Comet7]

so how guaranteed is roy's blazer ko?
can it be SDI'd out of? yes
does it have any confirms? yes, from down tilt?
is roy going to get away with down tilting a peach on a platform? once in a century.
does the down tilt have any confirms into it? probably not with proper DI. up throw up air can probably be avoided with good DI, though a someone more knowledgeable about roy would need to confirm this.

 

[pichuplayer]

Hey guys, I feel bad saying this, but I dont think I'll be able to release the official list this week. I am more than half of the way done sifting through voters, and I could probably have the data compiled by the end of day tomorrow, but I won't have time to create a proper post for the tier list. I'm sorry.

To make it up to you all, here is some preliminary information to bask in

https://imgur.com/1wghcRT

only thing i'd love is Pichu not to be F tier and thats it

 

[Jackson]

Pichu a bit low imo

 

[Magus420]

I've looked into D-Tilt->Up-B stuff 6 or so years ago when I noticed it killed G&W/Pichu anywhere on YS with proper DI on the up-b (if they DI the d-tilt away you can't up-b them though). Plunder 's claims about what characters it works on and where it kills are very off and are assuming bad DI on the up-b, which should never happen with the d-tilt setup once someone becomes aware it's a thing, and there's no reason for them not to DI away from Roy when they're both up in the air after d-tilt in that situation either.

Of the characters mentioned (ICs, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Marth , Peach, Pikachu, Samus), d-tilt->up-b isn't a combo on Jigglypuff, Luigi, and Samus in the first place. The others are pretty much limited to only the Top YS platform and the top parts/platforms of the PS transformations.


D-Tilt -> Up-B

(Combo)			ICs (0-35), Marth (0-70), Peach (0-15), Pikachu (0-80)
YS Top Plat KO		ICs (0-35), Marth (60-70), Peach (0-15), Pikachu (10-80)
YS Low Plat KO		Pikachu (70-80)

Numbers aren't exact. Assumes the 10 damage hit and no DI on the d-tilt -> away DI on up-b (the 12 dmg hit of d-tilt would have shorter ranges). BF's top platform to blastzone is larger than the lower YS platform, and the other non PS transformation platform distances are larger than that.

 

[Spak]

so how guaranteed is roy's blazer ko?

Pretty guarenteed.

can it be SDI'd out of?

Not if it's spaced perfectly. I guess if you SDI into Roy if he's not a proper distance away you could save yourself, but that would be a result of a screwup on the Roy's part. Also, you need to stop with all of this "But you can SDI it". Very few people would be trying to do SDI for the reverse blazer because it's unexpected. Even when you're expecting to SDI, you're still likely to die. It's harder to save yourself from reverse blazer than it is for U-Throw Uair and I see high level players get killed by that all the time.

does it have any confirms? yes, from down tilt?
is roy going to get away with down tilting a peach on a platform? once in a century.

Punishing spotdodge, punishing laggy moves. You just have to trick them into doing something laggy, but I agree that Roy isn't usually on platforms.

does the down tilt have any confirms into it? probably not with proper DI.

B-Throw into turnaround D-Tilt is a thing on some characters if they don't DI well, but he usually doesn't need to combo into D-Tilt; D-Tilt can be hit as a punish or after a CC. CC is one of Roy's most valuable tools up until he either goes against Peach or gets at too high of a percent.

up throw up air can probably be avoided with good DI, though a someone more knowledgeable about roy would need to confirm this.

It can, but I've never relied on U-Throw U-Air to kill off the top because I'm usually not on a platform with Roy. It could be fairly unexpected.

EDIT: Holy mother of frame data, it's Magus!

 

[Comet7]

people who don't want to get cheesed by roy would SDI it. i haven't played any good roys myself, but somebody who has told me it's really obvious when roys will go for it since you have to go for that perfect spacing. my point is that it's not guaranteed. and just putting this out there, SDI is the future. it doesn't matter if pros don't do it even with the easy stuff sometimes, since that's a mistake on their part, not an excuse for others.

back throw into turn around down tilt should not be a consideration if it requires bad DI to work. an argument could be made if it's a mixup with the possibility of f throw and up throw, though i'm not sure why people would DI for up throw.

you seem to get my point with the down tilt on platforms thing. you need a hard read to get it at all, since peach has way better tools up close than roy has.

thank you magus. nice to know.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey guys, I feel bad saying this, but I dont think I'll be able to release the official list this week. I am more than half of the way done sifting through voters, and I could probably have the data compiled by the end of day tomorrow, but I won't have time to create a proper post for the tier list. I'm sorry.

To make it up to you all, here is some preliminary information to bask in

https://imgur.com/1wghcRT

What is the logic behind the divisions?

 

[Dolla Pills]

What is the logic behind the divisions?

Looks like a difference between rankings by at least 1 whole place

 

[1MachGO]

Looks like a difference between rankings by at least 1 whole place

Then why is Fox in his own tier but Sheik is in the same tier as Marth/Falco?

 

[Spak]

Then why is Fox in his own tier but Sheik is in the same tier as Marth/Falco?

Marth/Falco are in the S tier, Sheik is in the S-.

EDIT: Sheik, not Shiek. Shiek is not on the tier list and I forgot that Shiek vs Sheik is one of the exceptions for i before e except after c.

 

[Squirrell]

If Fox is seriously given his own tier I swear to god..

 

[1MachGO]

Marth/Falco are in the S tier, Sheik is in the S-.

EDIT: Sheik, not Shiek. Shiek is not on the tier list and I forgot that Shiek vs Sheik is one of the exceptions for i before e except after c.

Okay, so then why is Fox SS and not S+?

I feel like a tier is a tier regardless of the +/- subdivisions. SS is clearly its own tier whereas S- is still part of S.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Then why is Fox in his own tier but Sheik is in the same tier as Marth/Falco?

Probably because there is only a difference of one between Sheik and Marth whereas at other places the drop is more significant. Not entirely sure the exact process but it seems to be something around that

 

[1MachGO]

Probably because there is only a difference of one between Sheik and Marth whereas at other places the drop is more significant. Not entirely sure the exact process but it seems to be something around that

Fox to Falco is 1.12.
Different tier.

Marth to Sheik is 1.
Same tier. Different subdivision

Ice Climbers to Pikachu is 1.9.
Same tier. Different subdivision

????

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

Glad to see Luigi at #11, he definitely deserves to be there

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

For those of you that know Samus much better than I do, how is Samus's matchup spread against the top 8 characters?

 

[1MachGO]

For those of you that know Samus much better than I do, how is Samus's matchup spread against the top 8 characters?

I'd say...

Fox wins; counters.
Falco wins; soft counters (pretty disputed, though. Some will say its even and others will say Samus soft counters Falco)
Marth wins; probably between a counter and a hard counter.
Sheik wins; clear hard counter. I believe it was Mango who said "no Sheik should ever lose this match up at high level"
Peach wins; probably a counter but maybe a little better. I think Hugs called it evenish until Peach inevitably gets a power turnip.
Puff wins; counters. Probably even worse. Don't know much about this match up.
Falcon wins; Similar to Marth.
Ice Climbers lose; traditionally considered a hard counter in favor of Samus.

Super uphill battle but does disproportionately well vs. spacies like most mid tiers.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Based off of the Preliminary Tier List, I can agree with the placement of pretty much all the characters, and even the tiers themselves make a bit of sense, except for the tier that Ganondorf is in. I don't believe Ganondorf is in the same tier as Luigi, Yoshi, or Doctor Mario. I much more believe he is in the same tier as Mario and Young Link.

Other than that, looking pretty solid at the moment. Looking forward to the full version hopefully coming out soon.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Fox to Falco is 1.12.
Different tier.

Marth to Sheik is 1.
Same tier. Different subdivision

Ice Climbers to Pikachu is 1.9.
Same tier. Different subdivision

????

It could also be the relation between the characters position and their rating. I'm just guessing though, I'm sure Sveet has an algorithm he's using

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You guys are reading way too much into the names and divisions. But I guess thats half the fun

 

[pichuplayer]

just hoping Pichu isn't F for once he SHOULD be better than Roy or Zelda though both is a bit of a stretch

 

[EddyBearr]

Pichu deserves not only to be F tier, but to be among the worst in F tier. The character blows.

 

[pichuplayer]

Pichu deserves not only to be F tier, but to be among the worst in F tier. The character blows.

your opinion i accept that i do think he is better than bowser cause mobility and Kirby because well...its kirby Roy has a noodle sword and Zelda is b-air or f-air or nothing i do think pichu is better than most of the aforementioned (maybe not Zelda) cause even though rare we do see representation of Pichu by one of the best in the game not much but its something

 

[Comet7]

kirby has rep. he's also way better than most give him credit for.

i still think pichu's nair is better than roy, ness, and zelda.

 

[pichuplayer]

kirby has rep. he's also way better than most give him credit for.

i still think pichu's nair is better than roy, ness, and zelda.

better than thier nair's? or better than the character's themselves

 

[1MachGO]

It could also be the relation between the characters position and their rating. I'm just guessing though, I'm sure Sveet has an algorithm he's using

If there is an algorithm, shouldn't be obvious?

All I am saying is that this shouldn't be something accepted with blind faith.

 

[TDK]

better than thier nair's? or better than the character's themselves

The character themselves.

 

[Dolla Pills]

If there is an algorithm, shouldn't be obvious?

All I am saying is that this shouldn't be something accepted with blind faith.

Yeah I see what you're saying but at the end of the day it's just preliminary results, so I'm sure it will make more sense when it's done

 

[MarthOfHyrule]

Just my opinion, people are ranking Ness too high. He has the bat and that's pretty much it. I think Roy and Mewtwo beat him, maybe even Kirby.

 

[Squirrell]

only thing i'd love is Pichu not to be F tier and thats it

I think Pichu belongs somewhere around 17-20. Sure you die super fast as him but you're also ungodly fast and impossible to effing hit.

 

[pichuplayer]

I think Pichu belongs somewhere around 17-20. Sure you die super fast as him but you're also ungodly fast and impossible to effing hit.

yeah the u-air are good for juggling and if you don't die by getting knocked off you have a god like recover to get you back on

 

[Avoin]

I think Pichu belongs somewhere around 17-20. Sure you die super fast as him but you're also ungodly fast and impossible to effing hit.

20 at best. not really sure i'd put pichu better than G&W

Not better than DK for sure, and definitely wouldn't out shine either of the links.

i wouldn't say pichu deserves 24th, but i for sure wouldn't say it deserves 17th-19th either.

 

[sadweather]

I have some pretty good experience with low tiers, and here is what I think:

Kirby is bad, but i think that Bowser is worse. Ness is worse than Zelda, and Roy is as well, but better than Ness. Pichu is in between Zelda and Mewtwo, and I dont know that much about G&W, but above Mewtwo is probably right.

So That means...

19 G&W
20 Mewtwo
21 Pichu
22 Zelda
23 Roy
24 Ness
25 Kirby
26 Bowser

 

[Avoin]

That low tier set up looks probably about right to me.

But my low tier knowledge is pretty trash, as with most people.

 

[sadweather]

That low tier set up looks probably about right to me.

But my low tier knowledge is pretty trash, as with most people.

I'm not like amazing with my knowedge of low tiers, i was just that guy at one point where i only played low tiers. I will admit i know next to nothing about bowser, zelda or g&w.

 

[Sempai]

Bowser still has crazy fair range and UpB OOS

 

[sadweather]

Bowser still has crazy fair range and UpB OOS

Yeah, i dont know about bowser being the worst, ive never played bowser for more than like 30 minutes. He does have a good fair though .

 

[Sempai]

Yeah, i dont know about bowser being the worst, ive never played bowser for more than like 30 minutes. He does have a good fair though .

If you do play him for more than 30 mins, you realize thats rlly ALL he has tho :O
Side B isnt terrible tho.