2013 Community Tier List

[Griffard]

Happened to notice this by chance.

Did you and him practice together?

We've lived together for 2 years, we play every day for a few hours. Hit me up for the sexy deets.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Woah thats epic. I had no idea.

 

[Pluplue]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Samus
Pikachu
Ganon
Luigi
Yoshi
Mario
Young Link
Link
Donkey Kong
Roy
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch
Mewtwo
Zelda
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

I get carried in teams a lot so I feel like I should have a say in this.

 

[CyberZixx]

You can blame Dr. PP and the marth boards for that and I for the most part agree with it. I have him at #3
I'm excited about this

Heck yeah. 2013, year of the Marth.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, Marth is pretty cool.

 

[BladeWise]

• Top placings.
  • I've attended quite a few nationals, ie Apex 2012, Apex 2013, Genesis 1, Genesis 2, as well as a few large regionals, ie NCR, Rule 6 Regional.
  • I've beaten Chu Dat, Mango, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Shroomed, Zhu, Westballz
• I'm basically even in skill with Silent Wolf
• You can ask Silent Wolf to confirm these.

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Puff
Falcon
IC's
Doc
Ganon
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Link
DK
Yoshi
Roy
Ness
Mewtwo
G&W
Zelda
Bowser
PIchu
Kirby

 

[Nintendude]

Recent top placings:

9th at Impulse 2012
17th at The Big House 2
9th at ROM 5
49th at Apex 2013
Consistent top-5 at MD/VA locals

Notable tournament / MM (>= $5) victories: Kels, Chillin, DoH, Vudujin, Westballz, Dashizwiz

Comparable players: DoH (1-2), Vist (1-4), Kels (2-0), Sung (1-0 MM), Weon-X
References: Vist, Wenbo, Swift, CTL

Falco
Fox
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Marth
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Luigi
Samus
Ganondorf
Mario
Young Link
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Roy
Mr. Game & Watch
Zelda
Bowser
Ness
Kirby
Pichu

 

[choknater]

Top placings: It's too difficult to find the results of the tournaments, but I went to a lot of the Rule 6 Norcal locals which were usually pretty big, anywhere from 40~60+ people. Entry fee usually $5, one time $10. The players who attend are most of Norcal's ranked players like Shroomed, SFAT, PPU, Tafokints, etc. Norcal is mad good y'all already know lol. Every now and then socal comes, like S2J, westballz and Mango.
I usually beat all the mid-level players. I'm 3-0 vs Zeldafreak, for instance.

Best tournament victories: TANG, Bob$, Phil, HMW

Players who you consider yourself to be of about even skill with. Include your tournament record with them, if known: Same as above. Bob$. I'm 2-1 against him. Phil, I'm 1-2 against him. 2-0 against TANG. 1-0 against HMW. I always lose to the top players: Shroomed, SFAT, PPU, Tafo, Scar. I always lose to Bizzarro Flame due to IC's being countered by Ganon, though I consider myself equal to him.

Any players in your community who I could contact as a personal reference and/or to verify information provided: pretty much anybody. Hyuga knows everything.

My vote:

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Puff
6. Peach
7. Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Doctor Mario
10. Pikachu
11. Samus
12. Ganondorf
13. Young Link
14. Mario
15. Luigi
16. Link
17. Yoshi
18. Donkey Kong
19. Zelda
20. Ness
21. Mewtwo
22. Roy
23. Kirby
24. Mr. Game & Watch
25. Pichu
26. Bowser

 

[oukd]

I haven't beaten anyone very significant. If it helps, I got 33rd at Zenith2012 (Falco) and Rom5 (Pika).
References (probably not necessary): Wenbo, CTL, Bigwenz, Fortune, Vist

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Luigi
Mario
Ganondorf
Young Link
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Roy
Mr. Game & Watch
Zelda
Ness
Mewtwo
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

 

[_Keno_]

Try not to let a single GOOD peach, mario, or pikachu change your opinion of an overall character.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Cheap peach, 2 things. First, make sure to include credentials. Second, does the alternate coloring of falco, ganon, doc and pikachu have any significance?

 

[Purpletuce]

I think he was criticizing the list above him, he seems to have copy pasted it and changed the color of some characters to emphasize them. Reading the explaination he seems to think there is one standout Falco, Ganon, Doc and Pika.

 

[_Keno_]

Naw, I just copied and pasted it, only changing what I wanted cause I was too lazy to remake it entirely myself. The auto-formatting did its own work, and not by my choice. I don't mean to criticize the opinions of others, as if mine was somehow absolutely superior. I wasn't actually referencing any other 's post with my own.

My only credentials are experience, of which I have 8 years. I know other people are more experienced in different areas than I am, but I was only trying to say that too many people are basing the tier list of how well incredibly good people are doing with their characters. Representation shouldn't affect the tier list.

 

[Bones0]

Cheap peach, 2 things. First, make sure to include credentials. Second, does the alternate coloring of falco, ganon, doc and pikachu have any significance?

Those are the characters he changed from dkuo's list. lol When you copy and paste it keeps the colors, but when you retype them they come up white.

 

[Kimimaru]

If that's the case, if all Fox players did poorly throughout Melee's history then would he be considered one of the best characters? The best players with their respective characters usually show us new things the characters can do. If they can do that well with those characters, what is stopping anyone else?

 

[Bones0]

If that's the case, if all Fox players did poorly throughout Melee's history then would he be considered one of the best characters?

They have, and he is.

 

[Kimimaru]

Simply placing in the top 8 consistently would show that a character can be good. It's not like every Fox player in existence never made bracket.

 

[Bones0]

Simply placing in the top 8 consistently would show that a character can be good. It's not like every Fox player in existence never made bracket.

I don't know that there have been any Fox mains placing in the top 8 in recent years unless you count Mango, who uses Fox in only a few matchups. There's so many Fox players that some are bound to make bracket. If Link was as popular as Fox was, I'm sure we would have plenty of Links in bracket too. If there were a segment of the population that considered Fox good and thinks that Fox players just suck overall, then that's fine, but the opinion that Fox is the best or at least top 3 is borderline unanimous. I never agreed with the Puff craze back when Mango played him in addition to Hbox nor do I agree with the Falco craze because PP and Mango are top placers that use him, but at least I can understand why people would see the results and have theory to back up why those characters are good. I'm at a loss for why such a huge majority of people consider Fox top 3, if not the best, despite seeing no evidence of that in practice. The only thing I can really come up with is people ignore a lot of his issues when they're theory crafting such as him being comboed like a rag doll, being insanely light, having really poor priority overall, and having many flimsy combo moves such as drill and uair which get SDIed out of all the time now, or waveshines getting FFed onto the ledge to avoid what used to be a free KO.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Naw, I just copied and pasted it, only changing what I wanted cause I was too lazy to remake it entirely myself. The auto-formatting did its own work, and not by my choice. I don't mean to criticize the opinions of others, as if mine was somehow absolutely superior. I wasn't actually referencing any other 's post with my own.

My only credentials are experience, of which I have 8 years. I know other people are more experienced in different areas than I am, but I was only trying to say that too many people are basing the tier list of how well incredibly good people are doing with their characters. Representation shouldn't affect the tier list.

make sure you edit your credentials into your tier list post. Otherwise I will not see them when I go to tally the votes in june

I don't know that there have been any Fox mains placing in the top 8 in recent years unless you count Mango, who uses Fox in only a few matchups. There's so many Fox players that some are bound to make bracket. If Link was as popular as Fox was, I'm sure we would have plenty of Links in bracket too. If there were a segment of the population that considered Fox good and thinks that Fox players just suck overall, then that's fine, but the opinion that Fox is the best or at least top 3 is borderline unanimous. I never agreed with the Puff craze back when Mango played him in addition to Hbox nor do I agree with the Falco craze because PP and Mango are top placers that use him, but at least I can understand why people would see the results and have theory to back up why those characters are good. I'm at a loss for why such a huge majority of people consider Fox top 3, if not the best, despite seeing no evidence of that in practice. The only thing I can really come up with is people ignore a lot of his issues when they're theory crafting such as him being comboed like a rag doll, being insanely light, having really poor priority overall, and having many flimsy combo moves such as drill and uair which get SDIed out of all the time now, or waveshines getting FFed onto the ledge to avoid what used to be a free KO.

Idk foxs place top 8 all the time but nobody seems to notice. Lovage, SFAT, Kels, SIlent Wolf, Chillindude, unknown522 and others... Not to mention Javi and Leffen.

 

[Bones0]

make sure you edit your credentials into your tier list post. Otherwise I will not see them when I go to tally the votes in june


Idk foxs place top 8 all the time but nobody seems to notice. Lovage, SFAT, Kels, SIlent Wolf, Chillindude, unknown522 and others... Not to mention Javi and Leffen.

I know they have all placed well at nationals before, but none of them seem to be doing it consistently. Of course throwing 10 Fox mains of their caliber into the mix at every national is going to mean 1 is bound to do well and place high. If it's not the same player, then the fact that Fox keeps getting top 8 placings can just be attributed to his popularity. It sucks Javi has only been able to attend Apex (4th and 13th) and Leffen was banned (17th). I won't be surprised if we see top Foxes in the near future, but I think there is quite the double standard when it comes to tier lists being influenced by results. People will kick and scream that Fox is top 3 despite not placing well relative to his popularity, but if anyone had argued pre/post-Armada that Peach is top 3, but she just doesn't have any players using her correctly, they'd be seen as insane even though it's the same situation. More recently, we see this with Marth. PP and PPU start doing well with Marth, and suddenly all the tier lists start placing Marth much higher than they were even just a few months ago. It's not like there's been any terrific improvement his metagame in the past year or anything. Mew2King's Marth is still better than PP's and PPU's, but just adding more really good Marths at the top level has changed what people consider Marth on the tier list, even though the tier list should be based off of the peak of a character. The difference between Mew2King and 10 Marths just under his level should not result in any difference of opinion than Mew2King with no Marths just under his level.

 

[_Keno_]

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Marth
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Doc
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Yoshi
Young Link
Link
Donkey Kong
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Roy
Zelda
Ness
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

8 years experience
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/poe3-results-wobbles-zhu-rockcrock-macd-kels-cosmo.279030/
Beat: Dmac, Zeus$
Lost to: Iori, Watty
17/83

Haven't been to a lot of big tournaments sadly. If i find anymore ill post, but player skill has nothing to do with player knowledge so idk.

 

[BTmoney]

I know they have all placed well at nationals before, but none of them seem to be doing it consistently. Of course throwing 10 Fox mains of their caliber into the mix at every national is going to mean 1 is bound to do well and place high. If it's not the same player, then the fact that Fox keeps getting top 8 placings can just be attributed to his popularity. It sucks Javi has only been able to attend Apex (4th and 13th) and Leffen was banned (17th). I won't be surprised if we see top Foxes in the near future, but I think there is quite the double standard when it comes to tier lists being influenced by results. People will kick and scream that Fox is top 3 despite not placing well relative to his popularity,

• Ask yourself how many high caliber players play Fox. How many top 8 players are Fox mains? Fox is popular in what demographic? There is a huge tier of Fox players who are unlikely to win a national. This isn't an insult btw. (Silent Wolf, Javi, Lovage, Unknown, Sfat etc.) The only National tournament level Foxes currently in my mind are M2k and Mango.

but if anyone had argued pre/post-Armada that Peach is top 3, but she just doesn't have any players using her correctly, they'd be seen as insane even though it's the same situation.

• I don't see the point of the peach top 3 example/comment, that's just clearly wrong and there aren't any good arguments for that and it's not the same situation

More recently, we see this with Marth. PP and PPU start doing well with Marth,

• PPU is not the reason (at least not to me) why I have more faith in Marth

and suddenly all the tier lists start placing Marth much higher than they were even just a few months ago. It's not like there's been any terrific improvement his metagame in the past year or anything.

• Uthrow->uair. The way I see it only two players play Marth correctly. One of them isn't even good (Mow).

Mew2King's Marth is still better than PP's and PPU's , but just adding more really good Marths at the top level has changed what people consider Marth on the tier list, even though the tier list should be based off of the peak of a character. The difference between Mew2King and 10 Marths just under his level should not result in any difference of opinion than Mew2King with no Marths just under his level.

• Other than seeing more aspects of the same character obviously. M2k obviously does not show all of Marth's meta when he plays a set nor can you see all of marth's meta from just watching M2k. PP's Marth looks wildly different from M2k's. I don't see any other marth beating M2k's sheik or beating him in a set of dittos. Take that for what you will and define better. Has M2k taken a set off Armada as Marth or has he even beat a high level Sheik as Marth? The only thing M2k's Marth (who is my favorite player mind you so if anything the bias is in his favor) has on PP's is that M2k destroyed the character Fox vs his Marth and no one goes Fox (and wins) against his Marth.

Why can't we just be friends Bones?
And hell "peak" Marth is good as ****. If anything you just made an argument for Marth to be God Tier if you want to judge all the characters based solely on play that has been perfected. I don't see how perfect anyone beats perfect uairs.

I have Marth at #3 btw. TheCrimsonBlur also expressed a lot of what I feel in some other thread. Not sure if you saw that.

 

[Bones0]

Why can't we just be friends Bones?

Because you just claimed M2K's Marth was bad.

 

[BTmoney]

Because you just claimed M2K's Marth was bad.

Lol I never said that. He wouldn't be the most fun thing to watch in all of creation if it was bad. And he's obviously not bad at all. My point was I don't see him going Marth vs Kirbykaze or insert national level sheik here and PP beat him fair and square.

I don't think Mow will tell you PP's marth is better than m2k's but I believe it is. You can blame him for my opinion lol.

tl;dr
PP has the best Marth mostly due to play style differences.

 

[JKJ]

I honestly believe wholeheartedly that Fox and Falco's problems nigh-negate their positives. Falcon is in the same category of combo-ability (nearly) and since he doesnt have nearly the same options or speed as spacies, he is lower and has trouble placing at a high level. Spacies need to play nigh-perfectly to not die, for any hit can (and, at high level, will) result in a death. Once offstage, a read=death.

Floaties ultimately own Melee, imo.

Sheik is, in my opinion, the best combo of anti-combo, ability to combo others, range, priority, recovery, survivability, and speed. Combined with an incredible grab game, chaingrab, planking ability, etc. etc. I could go on to enumerate her positives, I believe Sheik is the best character in the game.

 

[john!]

^ is that you, bones?

 

[Upke]

^ is that you, bones?

 

[FourStar]

Im just sticking with my list but with full credentials:
I've been playing melee for about 6 months now. I've only watched Nor Cal Regionals in person but have watched plenty of live streams. I know a lot about the game considering i'm still kinda new but here's my list
S:
1. Fox (+0)
2. Falco (+0)
3. Sheik (+1)
A:
4. Peach (+2)
5. Jigglypuff (-2)
6. Marth (-1)
B:
7. Ice Climbers (+1)
8. C. Falcon (-1)
9. Pikachu (+3)
10. Dr. Mario (-1)
C:
11. Samus (+0)
12. Ganondorf (-2)
D:
13. Mario (+0)
14. Young Link (+3)
15. Link (+1)
16. Mewtwo (+4)
E:
17. Luigi (-3)
18. Donkey Kong (-3)
19. Roy (+0)
20. Zelda (-2)
F:
21. Yoshi (+0)
22. Mr. Game and Watch (+0)
23. Ness (+0)
G:
24. Kirby (+2)
25. Bowser (-1)
26. Pichu (+0)

 

[JKJ]

@Fourstar

You think Kirby isn't the worst character in the game?

WHAT

I know you're not the only one in this thread, but the majority of people placed him last,
what's your reasoning? Not calling you out, just interested to hear your reasons. What makes Kirby better than Bowser and Pichu, and what makes Pichu worse than Kirby and Bowser?

 

[FourStar]

@Fourstar

You think Kirby isn't the worst character in the game?

WHAT

I know you're not the only one in this thread, but the majority of people placed him last,
what's your reasoning? Not calling you out, just interested to hear your reasons. What makes Kirby better than Bowser and Pichu, and what makes Pichu worse than Kirby and Bowser?

alright so even though kirby is pretty much garbage, i still have seen more representation by kirbies than bowsers or pichus. and also bowser is really slow and so are his moves. pichu..... well half his moves inflict damage on himself. also kirby has great recovery and i believe he has could have good potential in the hands of a good player. and i personally would rather use him rather than most of the low and mid tier characters.... idk i guess personal preference?

 

[Upke]

Well, I'd say Pichu's recovery is better and his self-damage is largely negligable, but I like some of Kirby's moves a lot better. His dtilt has decent range and gimping power and it hits under the stage like Marth's dtilt. His utilt also has a nice hitbox and can chain. His bair and dair are also decent attacks with low endlag and the dair is a soft meteor smash.

 

[FourStar]

Well, I'd say Pichu's recovery is better and his self-damage is largely negligable, but I like some of Kirby's moves a lot better. His dtilt has decent range and gimping power and it hits under the stage like Marth's dtilt. His utilt also has a nice hitbox and can chain. His bair and dair are also decent attacks with low endlag and the dair is a soft meteor smash.

Yea i thought i was forgetting something. his gimping is really good and that's the reason i love using him. that and i used to always play kirby games <3

 

[BTmoney]

I just want to know how marth got worse when I look at people's lists

 

[FourStar]

I think because
1: not as many people use marth
2. i think he's just too slow in the current metagame
3: not as many people place with him anymore
but this is what i think so idk
i still love marth though

 

[Purpletuce]

Guys, watch out for this JKJ guy, I don't know if anyone of you remember, but he was the one who made a post about how Falco has it and everyone beats him too easy.

He actually was arguing why Yoshi vs. Falco is kind of even.

Ha.

 

[FourStar]

Guys, watch out for this JKJ guy, I don't know if anyone of you remember, but he was the one who made a post about how Falco has it and everyone beats him too easy.

He actually was arguing why Yoshi vs. Falco is kind of even.

Ha.

LOL thanks for the heads up. but yeah he was saying my tier list off only because of kirby's placing.....

 

[Get Low]

I hope that this thread doesn't stray from it's original purpose and turn into "Tier List Discussion Version 2".
It's already starting to, unfortunately.

 

[FourStar]

well no one wants to post tier lists......

 

[Bones0]

I hope that this thread doesn't stray from it's original purpose and turn into "Tier List Discussion Version 2".
It's already starting to, unfortunately.

My bad. I think this project is really cool, so hopefully people keep posting lists.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Of course throwing 10 Fox mains of their caliber into the mix at every national is going to mean 1 is bound to do well and place high. If it's not the same player, then the fact that Fox keeps getting top 8 placings can just be attributed to his popularity.

One could argue it means exactly the opposite. Maybe more good players are playing fox, but maybe players are placing better with fox because they are playing a better character.


edit- not saying this is true, just pointing it out. everyone should make up their own mind