2013 Community Tier List

[john!]

And those are the opinions we should ignore.

yeah forget the top players

i'd rather derive my opinions on melee's metagame from some random dude on the forums spewing his ignorant bull****

 

[Iron Dragon]

snip

I really wish everyone who posted here said things this intelligent.

Oh also Bones it's Falconplayer. Just letting you know my name on this site. Hai.

 

[Bones0]

K yeah that's pretty much right across the board and I agree with all of it. I do still think it's theoretically possible for someone to bust out metagame-changing tech that they've been keeping secret and I do think it's possible for it to be evident from a single tournament that such a thing is relevant and meaningful, but I admit that such an event would be extremely unusual.

The one part of your post that I somewhat disagree with is "Maybe they were just caught off guard by new stuff and will figure it out and continue winning after Evo." We're far enough along in the metagame that any substantial new tech will not be so easily discounted imo. Not saying that anything new is a total game-changer--far from it--but I don't think anything new and considered by a top player to be worthy of putting into practice would simply be "figured out" and become largely useless soon afterwards.

If M2K did something like spam counter a bunch of times and got away with it for a whole set, I would hardly start thinking about raising Marth on the tier list until the other top players have a chance to completely break the strat in the next few tournaments.

yeah forget the top players

i'd rather derive my opinions on melee's metagame from some random dude on the forums spewing his ignorant bull****

If a top player changes his opinions from tourney to tourney, then yeah, he should be ignored. Luckily, no top players seem to have this problem. If anything, they all seem more steadfast in their opinions of the game than the average player.

I really wish everyone who posted here said things this intelligent.

Oh also Bones it's Falconplayer. Just letting you know my name on this site. Hai.

'Sup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Every now and then I wonder what it'd be like to see someone's posts on a subject ordered and arranged next to each other chronologically. Just to see the evolution of the opinion and look at the factors that went into a change of mind.

I'd be interested to see my transition from "Luigi is horrible" to "Luigi is okay".

I'd also be interested to see my transition from "Ganon is worse than Roy" to "Ganon is worse than Pichu".

 

[john!]

If a top player changes his opinions from tourney to tourney, then yeah, he should be ignored. Luckily, no top players seem to have this problem. If anything, they all seem more steadfast in their opinions of the game than the average player.

if we shouldn't change our opinions after a tourney, then when should we change them?

 

[Bones0]

Every now and then I wonder what it'd be like to see someone's posts on a subject ordered and arranged next to each other chronologically. Just to see the evolution of the opinion and look at the factors that went into a change of mind.

I'd be interested to see my transition from "Luigi is horrible" to "Luigi is okay".

I'd also be interested to see my transition from "Ganon is worse than Roy" to "Ganon is worse than Pichu".

Ganon is clearly mid tier.

if we shouldn't change our opinions after a tourney, then when should we change them?

Your opinion should change over the long term of multiple tournaments indicating a similar trend. I figured that was obvious.

 

[john!]

Your opinion should change over the long term of multiple tournaments indicating a similar trend. I figured that was obvious.

so opinion changes happen little by little over the course of multiple trials which point to the same conclusion?

this contradicts what you originally said, which is that nobody should change their opinion on the tier list because of evo.

perhaps the results of evo will indicate a new trend in the metagame. would it be okay to change my opinion then?

 

[Bones0]

I'm not going to argue semantics. The guy was clearly talking about changing his opinion solely based on what might happen at Evo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You underestimate Pichu and Kirby's viability.

 

[FourStar]

more like he underestimates their existence.....

 

[U.F.O]

Aren't these tiers just based on who's been going to tourneys? (and, of course, won them?)
I haven't been in a tourney myself but I'm almost certain Kirby and Pichu (along with a few other low tiers) are in low tiers because no one plays as them in tourneys right?
I for one, as a Pichu main, think he has a lot more potential than people actually believe. If I was to/could participate in a tourney, I totally would... With Pichu. Try to change the mind of at least the surface of people who think he's that bad.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

pichu is really bad

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm almost certain Kirby and Pichu (along with a few other low tiers) are in low tiers because no one plays as them in tourneys right?

Pretty much the opposite, nobody play them in tournament because they're bad characters.

 

[U.F.O]

I honestly can't really believe that any character in the game sucks. They have their hidden potential somewhere.

 

[The Golden Donald]

I honestly can't really believe that any character in the game sucks. They have their hidden potential somewhere.

Learn the tournaments to go. To form opinions if you have as little information is not wise.

 

[Ziodyne]

Man, even if they won't use Pichu or Kirby in tournaments, it should be ****ing easy to imagine any good player decide one day to go Pichu or Kirby just to **** around and have fun.

People have played Pichu and Kirby, they've tested their movesets and figured out many different tricks with them, but the long and short of the matter is that they're terribly designed and the only way for them to even think of reaching top/high-tier would be something absolutely game-breaking that turns their design on their heads.

I mean, have you seen Pichu's tech roll? that **** is hilarious

 

[BTmoney]

Lol imagine how different a post-EVO list could to look.

I think it'd be cool to have pre and post EVO just for the hell of it since there is so much new information.

 

[Comatose]

Lol imagine how different a post-EVO list could to look.

I think it'd be cool to have pre and post EVO just for the hell of it since there is so much new information.

I'm sure the ICs would be up quite a bit on some lists haha.

 

[Circa]

I honestly can't really believe that any character in the game sucks. They have their hidden potential somewhere.

Roy might actually be that bad. Vectorman was on PB&J's stream at some point last week talking about how him and Axe had both tried to play Roy on a competitive level, and they both gave up on him.

You know something's up when AZ gives up on a low tier. That just doesn't happen.

 

[BTmoney]

btw, roy can get hella better with pivot fsmashing. all the cool marths are doing it now. check it out

He might even gain more from it than Marth does

 

[The Hooded Informant]

You know guys, we need to rank the characters by the level of difficulty that players experience (the character that is higher on that level is MUCH harder than the last), the experience the players get from the characters (people playing as Sheik, Fox, Falco and Marth get NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER), and their overall power and skill. If these go into effect, the top characters would be Link, DK and Ganondorf.

 

[Upke]

Someone stop the ride. I want to get off.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You know guys, we need to rank the characters by the level of difficulty that players experience (the character that is higher on that level is MUCH harder than the last), the experience the players get from the characters (people playing as Sheik, Fox, Falco and Marth get NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER), and their overall power and skill. If these go into effect, the top characters would be Link, DK and Ganondorf.

Smash confirmed for RPG

 

[The Hooded Informant]

Oh haha, real funny guys. A person needs to have experience with a certain character in order to actually know the character's full potential.

Smash aside for this experiment, I used Astaroth instead of Maxi in SCV, Maxi was TOO easy and Astaroth was too HARD. I trained with Astaroth and became a pro with him.

Smash IN this experiment. I use Bowser for this experiment versus...Marth. Bowser is slow, so you have to time dodges right and perform aerial attacks on Marth, precisely, the F-Air. Marth has spammable combos and attacks, giving no one TRUE experience in the game. Bowser would give the person the best experience (being the worst character; Pichu is better than him) as a player.

 

[Kimimaru]

I see what you mean but I have to disagree. Every character requires good execution and every player requires general skills, like reading their opponents.

There will of course be characters that are easier to play than others. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this "true experience," though. Also for the record, Marth cannot just spam attacks and win, and I'm not sure what you mean by "spammable combos" since his require a good bit of execution.

 

[Purpletuce]

Kimi, don't respond to him. If you read his post, he uses the term "spammable combos", which implies combos he can throw out. This implies he doesn't understand DI. So he is either a troll, or a casual who is too steadfast in his opinion.

Also, in a previous post he described one of the categories he used to rank characters is the speed of their successive smash attacks. He actually cares how rapidly he can throw out smashes.

This goes for everyone, stop responding to him. He will go away eventually.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I already decided the new tier list. It's somewhere in the 2010 tier list thread. Furthermore, in light of recent events wherein I killed Cactuar, married Mow, and conquered the MBR to become its sole ruler, I have completely disbanded this project entirely. Luigi will rise. During the interim, while I leave to observe further areas of this forum that require improvement, I implore you b!tches to cower in fear and find appropriate shelter until I return with further instructions.

 

[Comatose]

Well... I guess there's not much of a choice now.

All hail KirbyKaze! *bows down and offers up a sacrifice of moose and maple syrup*

 

[BTmoney]

Because what Canadian doesn't want that

 

[lordvaati]

I honestly can't really believe that any character in the game sucks. They have their hidden potential somewhere.

To an extent you are right, some say Yoshi and Roy have more potential then shown, the Links can be good in the hands of a skilled player, and VMario is only that low because his clone makes him almost obsolete, but then again you've Got Kirby who was nerfed so bad that he only has 2 real ways of killing people and Pichu who was INTENTIONALLY made to suck, so there are some characters that can't really be used.

 

[GKInfinity]

Yoshi can be pretty amazing. Amsa was tearing it up at Evo. He's really fun to watch and play against

 

[The Hooded Informant]

Kimi, don't respond to him. If you read his post, he uses the term "spammable combos", which implies combos he can throw out. This implies he doesn't understand DI. So he is either a troll, or a casual who is too steadfast in his opinion.

Also, in a previous post he described one of the categories he used to rank characters is the speed of their successive smash attacks. He actually cares how rapidly he can throw out smashes.

This goes for everyone, stop responding to him. He will go away eventually.

Oh, tisk, tisk, tisk, Purpletuce. I thought you were "much" smarter than that, but apparently not.

You see, when I say "spammable combos", I say that when a player makes a character use the same/most of an attack in a combo, I.E. Marth's F-Air to opponents. I understand how DI works, and I also understand jumping and attacking immediately after.

Marth's F-Air in the game is one of the fastest F-Airs (comparable to Sheik), but it also throws a character upwards or diagonally, giving Marth the opportunity to jump once again to perform another F-air, fast-fall and repeat the same thing. This also applies with his N-air.

If Marth manages to knock the opponent horizontal, he can fast-fall to the ground, jump up and perform the combo or end the opponent with a meteor smash, only if the opponent does not meteor cancel.

Basically, if you are in front of Marth in the air, you are basically what I call, "Combo Trapped", despite knowledge of DI.

DI has no use whatsoever in a Combo Trap attack strategy. When a player uses the Combo Trap strategy, you are basically asking for a beating. Even if you manage to air dodge, a Combo Trapper will fast-fall, L-Cancel and perform a Smash Attack, keeping you in the air.

At high percentages, it would be nearly impossible to defeat a Combo Trapper. If you are away from the edge, you better come up with a good strategy of recovery, as many (if not all) people can predict recoveries.

As for Dash Trapping, another term I created, it basically implies that the opponent uses a dash attack to keep you in the air. If the opponent is fast enough, they can turn back and do another. If you air dodge and they miss, you better be a fast button pusher, as they will instantly come back and attack you again.

Finally in the "Trapping Series" is the Downward Trap. Basically, a character spams a meteor attack at a rather high percentage, and will either go for a semi-spike, spike or meteor and repeat the process again, if not KO'ing you first.

Characters most effective with Air Combo Trapping are as follows:
Marth (F-Air and N-Air)
Sheik (U-Air)
Ganondorf (F-Air, N-Air and U-Air)
Link (N-Air and F-Air)
Young Link (N-Air and F-Air)
Yoshi (N-Air)
DK (U-Air and F-Air)

Characters most effective with Dash Trapping are as follows:
Link
Marth
Fox/Falco
Sheik/Roy
Mewtwo
Ganondorf

Characters most effective with Downward Trapping are as follows:
Ganondorf/Captain Falcon
Falco
Yoshi
DK

To end this inquiry, I play the game one step ahead of the opponent(s). The game to me is like chess. I perform the first move, you perform the second, and on and on, until...

Checkmate, I win.

This isn't always the case, as I am not perfect at this chess game. I may make one mistake, but I quickly make a new strategy which the opponent cannot follow. When opponents see the same strategy, yet I come up with a new one, they are thrown completely off guard, and most times...

I win.

Think of this series as a chess game, move one step at a time and calculate where your prime position will be with the piece, and you will understand how you shall win.

 

[Upke]

Link's bad, ya know?

 

[BTmoney]

Lmao if you get nair comboed unplug your controller and run into traffic. How do you get comboed into the same move that doesn't combo into itself?

Fantastic read, 10/10 highly recommended

 

[GKInfinity]

Upke: You have an amazing Avatar

Hooded Informant: I have no idea what you're talking about, but we should MM

 

[Naughty Pixel]

dat ganon nair

 

[john!]

i wish i was dumb enough to think that i know everything about this game

 

[Upke]

dat ganon nair

HAHAH OH **** I DIDNT EVEN SEE THAT PLS KILL ME THIS IS HILARIOUS WOW

 

[The Hooded Informant]

Lmao if you get nair comboed unplug your controller and run into traffic. How do you get comboed into the same move that doesn't combo into itself?

Fantastic read, 10/10 highly recommended

Well, interesting fact is that N-air can have amazing properties in the eyes of a trained player (one who can actually see the frames of the attacks), which are unseen by people who aren't "Frame Seers".

You see, "Combo Trapping" is where you keep your opponent in the air, no matter what they do. Sometimes, it's not even necessarily a combo needed, which I call, "Air Trapping".

i wish i was dumb enough to think that i know everything about this game

I know what you are saying, and let me clarify:
1. Do not call someone dumb. It's quite rude.
2. I DON'T know everything about the game, no one does.
3. I don't think, I strategically place the chess pieces in perfect sync in order to find out more about the game. Some things unseen.

Take your time, people, I already used you people as test subjects. If you ask why I used you as test subjects, here is the answer:
----I used you as a source to find out if Smash Bros. players are the biggest trolls.
What was my result: 100% TRUE. You people do nothing but troll people you deem either "Noobs" or "Trolls", when they can actually perform much better than you.

Hmm...I wonder if I should teach you people a lesson in Smash?
Then again, I could be wasting my time.
But then, how would I show how good or bad I am?
How COULD I show it?

Someone, "tell" me.
Is there going to be some "important Smash Tournament"?

 

[Upke]

Upke: You have an amazing Avatar

Hooded Informant: I have no idea what you're talking about, but we should MM

Thanks, bby. She is a super qt. :3

when they can actually perform much better than you.

GK just MM'd you, man. Fight him IRL.