2010 Marth MU Discussion vs. ZSS

[ChKn]

Let's keep this rolling and do one MU per week.

Previous Discussions:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241268

Zero Suit Samus​

Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- ZSS's Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
- Positioning/Zoning
2. Killing Methods
- Killing
-Getting Killed
3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
- Recovering as Marth
- Against ZSS's recovery
4. Moves
5. Stages
6. Videos

1. Overview/Normal Play

Summaries

I loath this matchup with every inch of my soul.

~Nike20

ZSS's Style(s) of Play



Marth's Style(s) of Play


Positioning/Zoning

Don't try to shield her Dsmash wait for it and then punish it. you have a greater frame advantage by doing so. You'll need to be fast with your punish though stay alert.

Since she doesn't have a practical grab you will need to power-shield everything since she will be spacing attacks on your shield. Her back air can cause problems with your fair along with her uair so I recommend using something like nair which when you use moves you back and is more disjointed than fair.

She also doesn't have amazing OoS options actually since she can't grab (her grab is 16 frames and has like a falcon punch start up times of lag)
since her upsmash or up B isn't practical out of shield she will have to actually shield drop jab (8 frames) for her fastest option. Because of this you can actually FF fair Shield before she can do anything that will hit you.
~Blacknight99923

Her down smash is actually +2 on shield, so she can always at least jab/up tilt before you can do anything. Up tilt can also cover her landings well if you get too eager to punish, since it comes out on frame 3. It has a lot of lag though, so if you can predict those, and punish well, they're less likely to throw them out. If you get dsmashed, just (s)di the follow up as best as possible. Her fair or bair can challenge your fair range, and her movement is better than ours (same air speed, but everything else, she wins), but we out-disjoint her. If they're aggressive, playing just outside of her range can be very effective.

~Shun Goku Satsu


Ftilt beats all of zss' aerial magicks from the ground.

Shieldbreaker also outranges the down smash.

~Shaya


Tilt your shield up at higher % or your will get shield poke by her bair, and it hurts.
Abuse your shield because she don't have a grab lol.
Since you cant shield on dash,take care dashing because of her spacing with side B.
If you get hit by her dsmash, SDI up so you don't get by the second it of fair, and if she bair you are already doing the right DI.

ZSS can get you on top of the stage easily due to her awesome speed, so sometimes you have to DI down her atacks when you are in the air.

~ChibixD


=================================================


3. Recovery/Edge Game

Recovering



Against ZSS's recovery



Edge guard with bair (it covers her down b completely and utterly).
Use dolphin slash regrab if they try being low... but otherwise stage height etc it's bair.

~Shaya

 

[Blacknight99923]

Don't try to shield her Dsmash wait for it and then punish it. you have a greater frame advantage by doing so. You'll need to be fast with your punish though stay alert.

Since she doesn't have a practical grab you will need to power-shield everything since she will be spacing attacks on your shield. Her back air can cause problems with your fair along with her uair so I recommend using something like nair which when you use moves you back and is more disjointed than fair.

She also doesn't have amazing OoS options actually since she can't grab (her grab is 16 frames and has like a falcon punch start up times of lag)
since her upsmash or up B isn't practical out of shield she will have to actually shield drop jab (8 frames) for her fastest option. Because of this you can actually FF fair Shield before she can do anything that will hit you.

 

[Reizilla]

Her down smash is actually +2 on shield, so she can always at least jab/up tilt before you can do anything. Up tilt can also cover her landings well if you get too eager to punish, since it comes out on frame 3. It has a lot of lag though, so if you can predict those, and punish well, they're less likely to throw them out. If you get dsmashed, just (s)di the follow up as best as possible. Her fair or bair can challenge your fair range, and her movement is better than ours (same air speed, but everything else, she wins), but we out-disjoint her. If they're aggressive, playing just outside of her range can be very effective.

ZSS is a character that can be played a lot of ways though, so take everything with a grain of salt, I guess.

 

[Nike.]

I loath this matchup with every inch of my soul.

 

[Lord Chair]

Her down smash is actually +2 on shield, so she can always at least jab/up tilt before you can do anything.

It's -5, stop spouting lies. You should even be able to buffer a guaranteed DS OoS if she messes up her spacing.

 

[Reizilla]

Last I checked, it was +2. Marth boards are like the only ones without really ****ed up frame data anyway.

 

[Blacknight99923]

as I said before don't shield it and don't run into it.

 

[Shaya]

You can't dolphin slash to punish it if they shield.
So it's -5 or less.

I thought it was -4.
Maybe they mean +2 on shield drop.

Anyway...
mmm...
Ftilt beats all of zss' aerial magicks from the ground.

Edge guard with bair (it covers her down b completely and utterly).
Use dolphin slash regrab if they try being low... but otherwise stage height etc it's bair.

That's all I can think of atm... just woke up... I'll comment more on what others say.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Vinnie told me it's -3 on block and I'm inclined to believe him

walk and shield, react, gg

 

[demonictoonlink]

That's all I can think of atm... just woke up... I'll comment more on what others say.

At 10:30 PM?!?!

Sorry had to.

To avoid infractions...ZSS has bad OoS options. And an awkward recovery.

 

[Spelt]

what dtl said.


and to avoid infractions ... samus is a girl

 

[Punishment Divine]

At 10:30 PM?!?!

Sorry had to.

To avoid infractions...ZSS has bad OoS options. And an awkward recovery.

Shaya is from Australia, where I believe 10:30 PM to us is 12:30 PM to them lol

 

[ChibixD]

Tilt your shield up at higher % or your will get shield poke by her bair, and it hurts.
Abuse your shield because she don't have a grab lol.
Since you cant shield on dash,take care dashing because of her spacing with side B.
If you get hit by her dsmash, SDI up so you don't get by the second it of fair, and if she bair you are already doing the right DI.

ZSS can get you on top of the stage easily due to her awesome speed, so sometimes you have to DI down her atacks when you are in the air.

I think is better for you to stay more(not ALL the time) on the ground in this MU with Dtilts, DB, Ftilt and grabs

 

[demonictoonlink]

Shaya is from Australia, where I believe 10:30 PM to us is 12:30 PM to them lol

Yeah, I just had to make that joke...even if it was stupid and unfunny...And got me a ****ing warning >:0

I said completely legitimate things

Also I'll try to post a bit better now cuz I'm trying to second Marth. I have no idea what MU he does better in than MK though. (MAYBE ZSS??!?)

Other than DS, can Marth punish ZSS's Dsmash?

 

[Shaya]

counter punishes it.

If the sword doesn't reach zss, she gets the counter hitbox lag (like mk's tornado).
Shieldbreaker also outranges the down smash.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Sorry, I meant punish on shield. Can you DB after it?

Sex robot, sex robot.

 

[Shaya]

nah you can't punish down smash on block unless you predict their next movement.

 

[demonictoonlink]

****. **** that move though. Really.

With MK I like to block the first one, jump over her and grab. Obviously won't always work...but yeah. It's an option.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I also think this is viable to bring up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbAYGJTzHMU

Shaya, could you maybe use your supah mod powers to make it a vidya you can see in a post lol

 

[MintyFlesh]

Quarter circle DI?!

and matt i think they can just wait for you to pop up, and then bair you.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, that only exists if you're still in the "electric" stun of the move.

Most ZSS wait until you bounce out then hit you (as Minty said).

 

[Punishment Divine]

No, if you watch at the end of the video they show that you can actually SDI the stun down, so you don't go popping up. I thought the same thing you guys did but ESAM verified that this IS real and effective

 

[Rubberbandman]

No, if you watch at the end of the video they show that you can actually SDI the stun down, so you don't go popping up. I thought the same thing you guys did but ESAM verified that this IS real and effective

He means wait for the stun to wear off, when you still can't do anything.

If you're thinking what I'm thinking, then you're wrong; You can't (s)DI the move to tech it unless you're hit by something else during the stun, thats why at the end of the video he always jabbed.

 

[Punishment Divine]

He means wait for the stun to wear off, when you still can't do anything.

If you're thinking what I'm thinking, then you're wrong; You can't (s)DI the move to tech it unless you're hit by something else during the stun, thats why at the end of the video he always jabbed.

I remember ESAM saying it was legit, and it's worth mentioning

 

[ChKn]

I'll update the thread during the weekend.

 

[iamjason8]

I actually haven't played this MU that much, and I may be repeating things but nevertheless I still feel "contributing".


1. Overview/Normal Play:
Summary
Marth is a character with a pretty big sword - the epitome of his range and priority. Marth doesn't have any strong grab combos on ZSS like he does on Fox but his grabs aren't exactly useless.

ZSS is a light character with a lot of speed, unique projectiles and some KO potential. Her aerial game is incredible too.

ZSS's Style(s) of Play
Imo, she has a lot more options when the match starts. She can just open by camping with her neutral B while the Marth has to approach. She can also approach with aerials or dash attack. She can beat Marth in the air when he's beside her because her aerials have so much freaking range. When Marth is over her, its a very bad sign for the Marth since he can't really do much when he's above someone.

Marth's Style(s) of Play
Marth wants ZSS to be above him since there's a lot he can do. Basically all, if not all of his Up moves beat her D-Air and you can space F-Air a descending Flip Jump. Most Marths probably wouldn't go for the grab since he has a lot of better tools to use against her and most ZSS shouldn't abuse (power) shield because her OoS aren't very good. Each character has aerial tools that beat one another so Marths, I wouldn't suggest you heavily rely on your aerials to win this one. I still feel ZSS wins in the air a lot of the time though.

Positioning/Zoning
They are even up close in my opinion. ZSS has D-Smash and her quick jabs, and although very punishable, a grab which outranges Marth's. Her Side-B is also incredibly good as it deals a lot of knock back and has so much utility since the sour spot pushes the victim into the sweet spot. The queer prince on the other hand can space a Dancing Blade to build up damage whilst making sure he is not caught in a jab and can punish a dash attack with D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash or Side-B when timed correctly. He also has Dolphin Slash which works very nicely for me too!

Mid distance, ZSS obviously has the advantage. Her neutral and Side-B outrange most if not all of Marth's attacks so Marth does not have many options. She can break approaches with D-Smash and random U-Tilts. Her F-Smash is really annoying too because it hits in front of her and behind her. Marth has to work very hard to get in a few good tippers. Also remember to use Counter Marths! If you want...

Far away, ZSS hands down because she can camp whilst Marth can't.

2. Killing Methods
Killing
Marth is better at killing. He already has a plethora of reliable killers and ZSS being very light doesn't help her either. Here's the list of what I use to kill. All smash attacks, all aerials, U-Tilt, tipper Dancing Blade, high knock back Dolphin Slash (on or off stage). He doesn't have too much trouble building up damage either.

ZSS doesn't have that many killers to start with really but they all work well against Marth. All aerials except D-Air and Plasma Whip. U-Air is essentially her "MVP move" especially against Marth since it comes out faster than his D-Air and if spaced properly, will not get punished by Counter. Let us all not forget the notorious D-Smash -> Side-B.

Getting Killed
(lolwut?) ZSS is better at getting killed than Marth because she has less killers and is lighter. Her tether hanging on to the stage can also get caught by a Dolphin Slash (you'd be surprised as to how often this happens) leading her to get stage spiked. Marths should just not be stupid and not put themselves in a situation where they get gimped by Flip Jump or (multiple) offstage F-Airs/B-Airs. The usual shenanigans.

3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
Recovering as Marth
Aim low to sweet spot the ledge. You never want to be above ZSS who has plenty of options when beneath you. I wouldn't suggest using Side-B recovery (when Marth uses one hit from Dancing Blade to give himself a bit of leverage and horizontal distance) since she can use her Paralyzer or run off and land a fast aerial. You need to sweet spot the ledge because lack of precision can result in you getting D-Smashed. Not pretty.

Against ZSS's recovery
Just like against most characters, you don't want to be hanging onto the ledge when the invincibility frames wear out. An aerial can stage spike you, and the Flip Jump or Up-B can meteor you. Don't hesitate to run off the stage and randomly F-Air or something because it will probably work. When recovering, their number one priority is safety so they will be more cautious in pulling out aerials (since they don't have many jumps to work with in the first place) so this is your golden opportunity to score a kill. If they're not going for the ledge, F-Air beats Flip Jump or you can be a **** and run up and Counter. If for whatever reason, their tether is extended and they don't retract it, that's another opportunity to score a kill off stage.

4. Moves
Well Marth has all of his smashes, tilts, aerials and specials at his disposal against her. Just be careful of what moves to use at certain times. I think Shield Breaker's range deserves a mention too because its his move with the most range but I haven't found that many opportunities to use it.

ZSS has her aerials, up moves and Paralyzers. Side-B and F-Smash too. Nothing out of the ordinary.

5. Stages
Marth, don't go to FD lol. I'm not so good here because my friends and I only really play on neutrals. I guess Delfino isn't bad because in my opinion its okay for Marth but ZSS might have a hard time recovering and such. Just be careful of the walk off blast lines. I suppose Halberd is good too for similar reasons and it has a low ceiling where you can get some fast KOs.

6. Videos
Sorry, I'm a scrub and don't have videos.

Conclusion
When approaching with Marth, you need to (keep away and) have an idea of what she's going to do. If you're far then she'll probably charge her Paralyzer or D-Smash hoping you'll run into it so you can approach with F-Air. If she's going dash attack, then start up your Dancing Blade before it hits you so she'll end up getting hit. If she approaches with her aerials then Counter or space and time a tipper.

I see this as whoever is on the bottom will pull out on top. ZSS has better overall stage control (zoning on the stage) against Marth in general but Marth beats her at basically everything else.

I would be happy with 50:50 but I feel Marth may have a slight advantage.
Verdict: 55:45 to Marth.

 

[Lord Chair]

Sorry, I'm a scrub

That is correct.

Most of the killing moves you note aren't good against ZSS at all, lolsmashes loldancingblade (since when does that reliably kill anyway) LOL FTILT and lol DS, you won't DS a lot in this MU.

ZSS' has reliable and safe killing moves called bair and uair.

Then I realized you're wrong about almost everything you're saying and I have better ways to spend my time.

Spoiler

WHY THE F AM I EVEN HERE

 

[Anaky]

WHY THE F AM I EVEN HERE

Cuz an obvious troll obvious.

 

[iamjason8]

Most of the killing moves you note aren't good against ZSS at all, lolsmashes loldancingblade (since when does that reliably kill anyway) LOL FTILT and lol DS, you won't DS a lot in this MU.

Smashes are to punish. Dancing Blade when tipped can kill if you're near the ledge. D-Smash won't get much usage but will still kill.

ZSS' has reliable and safe killing moves called bair and uair.

I never said they weren't reliable. I feel Marth has more options to kill then she does but all her normal killers still remain effective in this MU.

Then I realized you're wrong about almost everything you're saying and I have better ways to spend my time.

Lol? I should respect that opinion then. >.> Well next time, don't hesitate to enlighten the Marth boards.

EDIT: Sorry to all of those who disagree with my post. I just based it off my own experiences. My only john is that I guess I'm playing pretty rubbish ZSS. Don't flame, just say you disagree and if enough people think its very wrong, I'll just edit clear the post. Thanks.

Thank you.

 

[Lord Chair]

Now I actually feel bad.

Alright then, important thing to keep in mind is that ZSS doesn't have a static counter against shield approach. Marth's shield is kinda broken in and by itself, but in this matchup it's safe to put extra emphasize on it. ZSS has stuff that's safe on shield, but whenever you shield one of those things (dsmash, whip, bair) you can feel free to either retreat (and repeat the process if you feel like it) or to commit to reading their next option. It's a lot easier for Marth to pick up ZSS' habits than it is the other way around, simply because Marth has a lot more safe options to commit to.

So long as you're grounded, you're in a safe position. Don't feel threatened unless your shield is actually getting low, which is a likely thing to happen. Learn to powershield Plasma Whip, it's an entirely human thing to do, just get the timing down, it'll safe you a lot of pressure.

ZSS' tools become clear once she gets you popped up, she's a queen at exploiting landings, and her uair is, as you all should know, borderline broken in terms of juggling potential, as well as killing.

Of course, Marth can juggle her as well. She is a fairly straightforward target for juggle traps, don't take those too high, she can use dair as a decently practical means of escape. Learn the height at which it cancels, and do commit to catching her landing instead of pushing the uair. If she manages to break the juggle and you still happen to be in the air, perhaps jumpless, you're in for a world of pain.

Learn the range of her ledge getup attack. 'S annoying. Once you got that down, ledgeguarding her is fairly straightforward and should net you some practically free %.

Offstage, don't chase her too far. Just don't. If she has her double jump, she'll probably recover safely and you'd rather want to resort to ledgeguarding. If she lost her DJ, however, her options are much more limited and in a lot of cases she won't be able to recover. Learn those occasions.

IIRC, (please do confirm, I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one but I'd hate to spread false information, 's long time ago I played this matchup) once she uses her downB, she won't get it back unless she lands. As such, if you manage to make her commit to it and you hit her back, she's lost a tool just like you'd lose a double jump. If she loses both, she's dead, if she loses one, you can limit her options. JUST DON'T VENTURE TOO FAR AWAY OFFSTAGE OR YOU GET LOLOL EDGEHOGGED.

Fine, bored now.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah she doesn't gain her down b back if you hit her.

Ledge drop bair ***** her recovery.
Severely.

 

[iamjason8]

Nice enlightenment Lord Chair! =D

I really should have explained my stuff better..

So what's your verdict?

 

[Lord Chair]

I've never played this MU at a top level, I'd say it's slightly in Marth's favor.

 

[Orion*]

id say 6:4 marth

 

[Shaya]

Yeah I'd lean towards 60:40.

Over all Marth has a lot more... easier things going for him to beat zss' air game than MK does. Mostly our better aerial mobility and longer lasting aerials. As well as ftilt/jab/utilt hitting zss where she spaces herself in the air.

Top it off with her having several moves that can be countered on reaction, bair edge guarding...

 

[MurdaMoe]

she gets *****


she tends to sheild alot in this matchup cause of the pressure, so SB *****.

 

[Lord Chair]

she gets *****


she tends to sheild alot in this matchup cause of the pressure, so SB *****.

Lolgtfoofhere.

 

[Broly]

id say 6-4 in marth as well. i play shlike here constantly and i usually gain control of the match when im able to penetrate her spacing. dancing blade helps, and i realized the shielding helps out more than trying to run r dodge since alot of her attacks lag after hitting shield. Also, i find f-airing her teether grab attempt very useful in edgeguarding as the side b doesnt attack you since its targeting the ledge. one thing i find very annoying is her down-b range. its pretty gay, lol. her u-air is also one of the best as it can juggle marth if your not careful. in other words, dont ever be under her in the air.