1.10 Balance change speculation?

[JAZZ_]

Sitting back and watching lancer get served while eating popcorn. Afternoon fulfilled. Thank-you @ DungeonMaster for some truly amazing logic. And you @ LancerStaff for the comedy. Seriously looking at this with an open mind it's clear one side knows what they're talking about. Besides how many 3 player FFA's do you get in? And how on earth are you able to camp? Any cap. Falcon knows you rush down Samus it can be an easy stock. No way in heck do I get to freely charge.
Seriously that lost your argument there. (Even the whole entirety of your argument previously was filler without any substantial evidence.)
Now get out of our threads you off topic wannabe devils advocate

 

[LancerStaff]

Sitting back and watching lancer get served while eating popcorn. Afternoon fulfilled. Thank-you @ DungeonMaster for some truly amazing logic. And you @ LancerStaff for the comedy. Seriously looking at this with an open mind it's clear one side knows what they're talking about. Besides how many 3 player FFA's do you get in? And how on earth are you able to camp? Any cap. Falcon knows you rush down Samus it can be an easy stock. No way in heck do I get to freely charge.
Seriously that lost your argument there. (Even the whole entirety of your argument previously was filler without any substantial evidence.)
Now get out of our threads you off topic wannabe devils advocate

Three-man is much easier to describe then four. The result is largely the same in four since nobody is going to let Caps get free KOs off of Samus unless you're fighting some god-awful players.

 

[JAZZ_]

Three-man is much easier to describe then four. The result is largely the same in four since nobody is going to let Caps get free KOs off of Samus unless you're fighting some god-awful players.

Did you or did you not just base your argument soley on medocre or average players? Even ZeRo agrees Samus needs changes. Why do you even care if we as the Samus community ask for our fundamental moves to stop being broken or whiffy? You try to pitch an your view of an idealistic FFA scenario for Samus as your proof but it has no bearing on all the raw data and EXPERIENCE from all the players your argueing against. Describing hypotheticals in ANY ARGUMENT won't win you a DANG thing.
When jury's are asked to make a decision on a legal case they're commanded to base their judgement on the FACTS and EXPERT testimony.

Let's face it, none of us are part of the dev team so we can't accurately speculate what moves them to patch what. HOWEVER based on previous actions taken and previous data we can accurately detect the pattern.
I'm not going to rehash all the fact @ DungeonMaster and the rest layed out, but its a much more compelling argument with data and references that are viable.

And I'm sorry
3 player FFA and 4 player FFA are vastly different, usually with 2 groups pairing off in dueling with switch off happening repeatedly. Where as 3 players is a game of monkey in the middle.
The math just doesn't add up bro
Odd is not equal to Even when numbers are concerned

 

[LancerStaff]

Did you or did you not just base your argument soley on medocre or average players? Even ZeRo agrees Samus needs changes. Why do you even care if we as the Samus community ask for our fundamental moves to stop being broken or whiffy? You try to pitch an your view of an idealistic FFA scenario for Samus as your proof but it has no bearing on all the raw data and EXPERIENCE from all the players your argueing against. Describing hypotheticals in ANY ARGUMENT won't win you a DANG thing.
When jury's are asked to make a decision on a legal case they're commanded to base their judgement on the FACTS and EXPERT testimony.

Let's face it, none of us are part of the dev team so we can't accurately speculate what moves them to patch what. HOWEVER based on previous actions taken and previous data we can accurately detect the pattern.
I'm not going to rehash all the fact @ DungeonMaster and the rest layed out, but its a much more compelling argument with data and references that are viable.

And I'm sorry
3 player FFA and 4 player FFA are vastly different, usually with 2 groups pairing off in dueling with switch off happening repeatedly. Where as 3 players is a game of monkey in the middle.
The math just doesn't add up bro
Odd is not equal to Even when numbers are concerned

Yes. Because that's how Sakurai balances the game.

And every Samus I ask outside of this board, and some inside, say that she works well in FFAs. Actually, the only people who don't think she's even viable in FFA are very biased against Sakurai and everything he does or is one of you whiners.

Let's see, none of the top tiers had any major nerfs without some form of compensation, almost every buff to the low tiers has either been almost unnoticable or still doesn't fix their crippling flaws overall. Almost like they're trying to not break something else, hm?

That never happens. Nobody is going to let somebody attack a weaker player for even a moment because they want it for themselves. Which leads to the stronger ones fighting each other, which leads to somebody camping, which then repeats the cycle. Most matches give Samus plenty of space. Samus herself wins just as much as the other characters from my experience and basically everybody else's.

Here's the thing... If she was bad on FFAs, she would of been buffed a long time ago because there's tons of bad Samus players on there to show Sakurai, right? Samus is a common character on Glory mode in general... And yet she's had a Usmash fix, some shaved frames off of her grabs, and not much else. If you think Sakurai is biased against her, you're going to be laughed out of any sensible room. Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Yes. Because that's how Sakurai balances the game.

And every Samus I ask outside of this board, and some inside, say that she works well in FFAs. Actually, the only people who don't think she's even viable in FFA are very biased against Sakurai and everything he does or is one of you whiners.

Let's see, none of the top tiers had any major nerfs without some form of compensation, almost every buff to the low tiers has either been almost unnoticable or still doesn't fix their crippling flaws overall. Almost like they're trying to not break something else, hm?

That never happens. Nobody is going to let somebody attack a weaker player for even a moment because they want it for themselves. Which leads to the stronger ones fighting each other, which leads to somebody camping, which then repeats the cycle. Most matches give Samus plenty of space. Samus herself wins just as much as the other characters from my experience and basically everybody else's.

Here's the thing... If she was bad on FFAs, she would of been buffed a long time ago because there's tons of bad Samus players on there to show Sakurai, right? Samus is a common character on Glory mode in general... And yet she's had a Usmash fix, some shaved frames off of her grabs, and not much else. If you think Sakurai is biased against her, you're going to be laughed out of any sensible room. Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

Honestly your logic is flawed. Throughout all of your post the way you make it sound is as if Sakurai will only Balance, Patch, Buff, or Nerf a character solely based on their performance in FFA and nothing else. Which I think by now (based off all of the recent patches and data) is clearly not how it works.

Not only that. But you make it seem as if any improvement to this character would be absolutely unwarranted and also detrimental to FFA (and Sm4sh as a whole apparently) without ever giving a proper reason as to why besides repeating "She's good enough in FFA".

All you've managed to do so far is repeat yourself continuously while managing to spew out failed logic and horrible examples that do nothing to help your side of the argument. So this leaves me wondering honestly, do you truly believe what it is that you are saying, or are you just a troll?

 

[Hapajin]

Yes. Because that's how Sakurai balances the game.

And every Samus I ask outside of this board, and some inside, say that she works well in FFAs. Actually, the only people who don't think she's even viable in FFA are very biased against Sakurai and everything he does or is one of you whiners.

Let's see, none of the top tiers had any major nerfs without some form of compensation, almost every buff to the low tiers has either been almost unnoticable or still doesn't fix their crippling flaws overall. Almost like they're trying to not break something else, hm?

That never happens. Nobody is going to let somebody attack a weaker player for even a moment because they want it for themselves. Which leads to the stronger ones fighting each other, which leads to somebody camping, which then repeats the cycle. Most matches give Samus plenty of space. Samus herself wins just as much as the other characters from my experience and basically everybody else's.

Here's the thing... If she was bad on FFAs, she would of been buffed a long time ago because there's tons of bad Samus players on there to show Sakurai, right? Samus is a common character on Glory mode in general... And yet she's had a Usmash fix, some shaved frames off of her grabs, and not much else. If you think Sakurai is biased against her, you're going to be laughed out of any sensible room. Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

You keep doing this thing where you are basing your Samus FFA knowledge off all these "people you know" and "stuff you've heard." We're supposed to just listen to your experience?

I could use your same arguments/opposite arguments.

I know Samus mains outside the boards who say Samus is just straight garbage, FFA or not I rarely see Samus on FG, I don't see any trash talk about the video.

Feel free to post some evidence, I would be happy to see it.

Every Samus I know outside the boards has vocalized that Samus is terrible, FFA or not. And here are people in the boards affirming this. The only people who I saw saying that Samus was good in FFA said it out of ignorance, and realized the opposite after it was explained. I'll admit I even used to think that.

I haven't seen anyone making fun, in fact most people acknowledging and agreeing with that silly old video. Just read the YouTube comments.

It's easy for you to call us whiners when you use a functioning character whose hit boxes actually match the animation. Nobody here is asking for some game-breaking changes to Samus, have you even read our suggestions?

You still haven't acknowledged my point that Samus in previous smash games was superior in nearly every way to SSB4 Samus, yet was far from broken in those free for all scenarios. And yet we're not even asking for Melee or PM Samus, heck I'm fine if we don't even have the tools of the trashy Brawl Samus!

You can call us whiners, which is cute, but really it's just tiring for Samus mains who have put a lot of work into the character to see no improvement over a slew of patches.

I think it's cool that there are patches and characters are getting balanced, outside of PM, this is the first time we've seen the possibility of characters improving. During the brawl days, there was no hope for Samus getting any better, but now there's this great tool that the smash bros dev team has to tighten up weak characters. And with all the patches that have passed and only two minor buffs and a moderate nerf to Samus, it gets a bit discouraging.
Smash4 is great, I still play the game, although I've slowly been transitioning to melee and l PM again.just nice to have a game where your favorite character functions correctly, that's all. Don't freak out.

 

[Blue Warrior]

There are certain variables to consider in a character's probability for success in FFA settings

- Kill power (moves that hit hard and punish an unexpected player for bad positioning. Ganondorf, Link, Little mac share this trait)
- Area of influence (range, traps, projectiles; characters with a good projectile game can safely punish others for not targeting him/her)
- Combo susceptibility (Bowser gets hammered here due to his size)
- Mobility and recovery (Those who can travel from point A to point B quickly. Aerial and ground mobility both must be taken into consideration to respond to item spawns quickly)
- Ability to exploit items (reflects and special properties like pikmin grab and villager pocket)

Samus has an existent projectile game, but her missiles are low damage, low firing rate and can be easily intercepted by another projectile. Her charge shot is admittedly pretty good, but its kill power isn't so great that it defines a match. I would honestly say that Link has a much better projectile game due to projectile versatility and frequency.

Her item game is nothing special, she's floaty so she can reach the smash ball okay, but that's about it.

Her power is honestly pretty bad apart from her charge shot, and while her grab is easier to use there, it still doesn't reward her significantly and provides no kill options, which is important once the game gets down to the wire.

If you want someone who's really good in a FFA, try Zelda. More power, strong long range projectiles that force opponents to approach her, and a crazy long reflect that also repels uncoordinated close quarter attacks, plus her recovery is on Samus's level there and couples as a potential kill move.


Really it all comes down to power. If Samus hit harder, she would probably be significant in FFAs. She's really just an average character there, as it stands.

 

[IsmaR]

Don't forget Samus has the only chargeable projectile of its kind that can't be charged in the air. Making it inferior in FFAs to Mewtwo/Lucario/Wii Fit.

 

[JAZZ_]

Yes. Because that's how Sakurai balances the game.

And every Samus I ask outside of this board, and some inside, say that she works well in FFAs. Actually, the only people who don't think she's even viable in FFA are very biased against Sakurai and everything he does or is one of you whiners.

Let's see, none of the top tiers had any major nerfs without some form of compensation, almost every buff to the low tiers has either been almost unnoticable or still doesn't fix their crippling flaws overall. Almost like they're trying to not break something else, hm?

That never happens. Nobody is going to let somebody attack a weaker player for even a moment because they want it for themselves. Which leads to the stronger ones fighting each other, which leads to somebody camping, which then repeats the cycle. Most matches give Samus plenty of space. Samus herself wins just as much as the other characters from my experience and basically everybody else's.

Here's the thing... If she was bad on FFAs, she would of been buffed a long time ago because there's tons of bad Samus players on there to show Sakurai, right? Samus is a common character on Glory mode in general... And yet she's had a Usmash fix, some shaved frames off of her grabs, and not much else. If you think Sakurai is biased against her, you're going to be laughed out of any sensible room. Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

Wow you sure know how to throw a ton of blanket statements and words out without any substance or backing. Honestly we wouldn't get laughed out of a room of experts, and the bias comments were only stated in the initial rage.
Me personally have NOTHING against Sakurai at all. He gave me the Kirby games and this series. But the lack of any attention recently is troubling. Especially when the data shows she still needs some work up.
I mean look at the patch notes, tons of characters got SOME attention. Thats what we want, SOME attention. THE BEST SMASH 4 PLAYER AGREES THAT SHE NEEDS HELP! And how many players have you asked? Hm? Your bro Ted from down the lane? The entirety of EXPERTS agree with us. Here's a thought, you play as Samus for 6 months exclusively then comeback and tell us we're wrong about OUR MAIN. Your experience.. Hah! That's rich.
Oh and by the way that "up smash fix" is not fixed at all. We have a whole separate thread on that alone. In fact the upsmaah is sooo niche that in FFA you be lucky to get it off without punishment, let alone expecting it to work. Here's another note, if she was perfect for FFA then why is only a PIT MAIN clammering to that story?

Why are you even wasting your dumb time here? Oh I know why, to pad up your post count and to throw us Samus players so off topic that we can't discuss this properly. Can someone lock this fool out of this thread.
Edit: I apologize, that was out of line

 

[SpandexBullets]

Don't you all miss when missiles killed?
I miss when a missile/S. Missile would kill.

Anyone think a down-throw with such low BKB that it can combo and setup a charge shot would be OP? (Granted you jump before firing...)

I think it'd be pretty sweet. That and a more horizontal f-throw which puts opponents on the defence if you use missiles straight after.

Oh and a zair that has 4% throughout the whole move. Otherwise it's just the same as ZSS's...and I'm not gonna get into that right here.

 

[Varia31]

Don't you all miss when missiles killed?
I miss when a missile/S. Missile would kill.

Oh, tell me about it. In pretty much the entire Metroid series, those Super Missiles obliterate just about anything and can cause isolated earthquakes that can even make wallcrawlers fall. Here? A friendly shove.

Seriously though, I do wish they were at least a little stronger. With as much risk as there is to use them, you would think there would be a little more reward to them. At the least, I would even be happy with them killing average weight characters at about 180%. They don't even KO the super light characters at 200%, like Mewtwo, as that one video demonstrated. Blarg...

 

[Boney]

Sitting back and watching lancer get served while eating popcorn. Afternoon fulfilled. Thank-you @ DungeonMaster for some truly amazing logic. And you @ LancerStaff for the comedy. Seriously looking at this with an open mind it's clear one side knows what they're talking about. Besides how many 3 player FFA's do you get in? And how on earth are you able to camp? Any cap. Falcon knows you rush down Samus it can be an easy stock. No way in heck do I get to freely charge.
Seriously that lost your argument there. (Even the whole entirety of your argument previously was filler without any substantial evidence.)
Now get out of our threads you off topic wannabe devils advocate

Wow, what an asshole reply. Who are you to tell someone to get off the thread just because you disagree with the statement.
I definately think Samus needs serious reworkings to be a tournament viable character, which according to the boards here she goes 50/50 with almost everybody so she can't be the bad /s.

The confusion of the argument that comes from the FFA/1v1 debate is that I believe that's the wrong angle to look at it. While it is true it has to be balanced for both modes, which can favour FFA in certain issues like the stupid fast shield regeneration, I think the game is balanced around medium level play and not expert level play. Most huge nerfs were stupid ko moves like Sonic back throw, diddy's up air and shiek's back air which are easy to exploit from casual level of play. While the buffs have been mostly landing lag and reworking of wonky moves like falco's aerials along with the few % here and there.

For average players Samus is a threat, and it's why I think Sakurai considered her one of the best characters earlier and why she got all the pre release nerfs and has mostly stayed the same (even made worse since release). You can make missiles to good because if they were they'd make a frustrating match were it's too easy to space yourself and land charge shots safely, while at the same time her crappy up close game is a reward for getting through here zoning and it's your turn to dish the punish.
You and I both know this is bull**** in a competitive environment. Samus has a mediocre spacing game, worse than Mario's and she's gonna get murdered by any rushdown character in any mode.

If the game were balanced from expert to bottom I'm sure the mid/low level play would be pretty balanced as well but it'd have a few outliers. Someone mentioned that Shiek's back air is proof that the game is balanced for 1v1, but on the other side of the coin, if the game were to be balanced for tourney level play, a character as dumb as Shiek wouldn't have that frame data, those godly rolls and setups, the best antizoner projectile in the game and the best special in the game with bouncing fish (along with that stupid invincible up b that doesn't even have landing lag).

I do think Samus will continue to get a few buffs here and there as patches continue to roll in. But she's destined to be low tier character and that trash like the new ftilt is gonna guarantee it.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Wow, what an ******* reply. Who are you to tell someone to get off the thread just because you disagree with the statement.
I definately think Samus needs serious reworkings to be a tournament viable character, which according to the boards here she goes 50/50 with almost everybody so she can't be the bad /s.

The confusion of the argument that comes from the FFA/1v1 debate is that I believe that's the wrong angle to look at it. While it is true it has to be balanced for both modes, which can favour FFA in certain issues like the stupid fast shield regeneration, I think the game is balanced around medium level play and not expert level play. Most huge nerfs were stupid ko moves like Sonic back throw, diddy's up air and shiek's back air which are easy to exploit from casual level of play. While the buffs have been mostly landing lag and reworking of wonky moves like falco's aerials along with the few % here and there.

For average players Samus is a threat, and it's why I think Sakurai considered her one of the best characters earlier and why she got all the pre release nerfs and has mostly stayed the same (even made worse since release). You can make missiles to good because if they were they'd make a frustrating match were it's too easy to space yourself and land charge shots safely, while at the same time her crappy up close game is a reward for getting through here zoning and it's your turn to dish the punish.
You and I both know this is bull**** in a competitive environment. Samus has a mediocre spacing game, worse than Mario's and she's gonna get murdered by any rushdown character in any mode.

If the game were balanced from expert to bottom I'm sure the mid/low level play would be pretty balanced as well but it'd have a few outliers. Someone mentioned that Shiek's back air is proof that the game is balanced for 1v1, but on the other side of the coin, if the game were to be balanced for tourney level play, a character as dumb as Shiek wouldn't have that frame data, those godly rolls and setups, the best antizoner projectile in the game and the best special in the game with bouncing fish (along with that stupid invincible up b that doesn't even have landing lag).

I do think Samus will continue to get a few buffs here and there as patches continue to roll in. But she's destined to be low tier character and that trash like the new ftilt is gonna guarantee it.

You mean new nair?

I don't think she's destined to be an underwhelming character, she's just...there. Like WFT or Dedede or Megaman.

She's not like those characters that were designed to be amazing in 1v1; like Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Falcon, Shiek, Sonic...

or, you know

Samus.

 

[Xygonn]

You mean new nair?

I don't think she's destined to be an underwhelming character, she's just...there. Like WFT or Dedede or Megaman.

She's not like those characters that were designed to be amazing in 1v1; like Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Falcon, Shiek, Sonic...

or, you know
View attachment 66028
Samus.

1.0.6 ftilt added the sour spot that is unsafe on hit at low percents and doesn't lead to tech chase until about 150% and made the sweet spots have tech chases from about 40% to 70% (increased knockback). 1.0.4 ftilt had no sour spot and lead to CS tech chases at about 80% to 110%.

 

[Afro Smash]

If they make Super Missiles stronger, they'll hurt us more when they're reflected, thanks for looking out for us Sakurai :^]

 

[SpandexBullets]

If they make Super Missiles stronger, they'll hurt us more when they're reflected, thanks for looking out for us Sakurai :^]

Pls delete all moves incase we get countered
God bless Margarita Surprise

 

[Xygonn]

If they make Super Missiles stronger, they'll hurt us more when they're reflected, thanks for looking out for us Sakurai :^]

This is actually the worst part about the current super missile too. Most reflectors don't make them too bad, but a pocketed super missile from villager is actually pretty deadly fresh doing 20% and eats about half of a shield.

 

[KenMeister]

This is actually the worst part about the current super missile too. Most reflectors don't make them too bad, but a pocketed super missile from villager is actually pretty deadly fresh doing 20% and eats about half of a shield.

Not to mention it actually...*sighs in frustration*...kills.

 

[JAZZ_]

Wow, what an ******* reply. Who are you to tell someone to get off the thread just because you disagree with the statement.
I definately think Samus needs serious reworkings to be a tournament viable character, which according to the boards here she goes 50/50 with almost everybody so she can't be the bad /s.

The confusion of the argument that comes from the FFA/1v1 debate is that I believe that's the wrong angle to look at it. While it is true it has to be balanced for both modes, which can favour FFA in certain issues like the stupid fast shield regeneration, I think the game is balanced around medium level play and not expert level play. Most huge nerfs were stupid ko moves like Sonic back throw, diddy's up air and shiek's back air which are easy to exploit from casual level of play. While the buffs have been mostly landing lag and reworking of wonky moves like falco's aerials along with the few % here and there.

For average players Samus is a threat, and it's why I think Sakurai considered her one of the best characters earlier and why she got all the pre release nerfs and has mostly stayed the same (even made worse since release). You can make missiles to good because if they were they'd make a frustrating match were it's too easy to space yourself and land charge shots safely, while at the same time her crappy up close game is a reward for getting through here zoning and it's your turn to dish the punish.
You and I both know this is bull**** in a competitive environment. Samus has a mediocre spacing game, worse than Mario's and she's gonna get murdered by any rushdown character in any mode.

If the game were balanced from expert to bottom I'm sure the mid/low level play would be pretty balanced as well but it'd have a few outliers. Someone mentioned that Shiek's back air is proof that the game is balanced for 1v1, but on the other side of the coin, if the game were to be balanced for tourney level play, a character as dumb as Shiek wouldn't have that frame data, those godly rolls and setups, the best antizoner projectile in the game and the best special in the game with bouncing fish (along with that stupid invincible up b that doesn't even have landing lag).

I do think Samus will continue to get a few buffs here and there as patches continue to roll in. But she's destined to be low tier character and that trash like the new ftilt is gonna guarantee it.

You're right, I'm sorry @ LancerStaff , that was uncalled for. Though I will still encourage you to play as Samus for some time. maybe our opinions won't seem as outlandish as they appear to you.

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly your logic is flawed. Throughout all of your post the way you make it sound is as if Sakurai will only Balance, Patch, Buff, or Nerf a character solely based on their performance in FFA and nothing else. Which I think by now (based off all of the recent patches and data) is clearly not how it works.

Not only that. But you make it seem as if any improvement to this character would be absolutely unwarranted and also detrimental to FFA (and Sm4sh as a whole apparently) without ever giving a proper reason as to why besides repeating "She's good enough in FFA".

All you've managed to do so far is repeat yourself continuously while managing to spew out failed logic and horrible examples that do nothing to help your side of the argument. So this leaves me wondering honestly, do you truly believe what it is that you are saying, or are you just a troll?

I'm not saying that Sakurai only balances for FFA, I'm saying he won't make a change that negatively effects FFA.

FFAs are just about perfectly balanced. If you did something like make her missiles autocancel or basically anything that'd maker her viable in 1v1s then it'd break FFAs. You can't even give her something good off of her grab because of how she was designed. Yes, some characters with tethers have good grab games. But Samus wasn't made with having a good grab game in mind. Robin and DK can get hoo haas because their other weaknesses keep it in check in FFAs. Robin is slow as molasses and his grab range sucks, and DK is huge and going from grab > cargo > throw > aerial takes too much time in a FFA.

You're right, I'm sorry @ LancerStaff , that was uncalled for. Though I will still encourage you to play as Samus for some time. maybe our opinions won't seem as outlandish as they appear to you.

Apology accepted.

It's just that when you look around and ask people about their character in FFAs, it's always like "OMG, they're great now" and nobody can agree on a single best character in FFAs. I'm more inclined to think that every character is good in FFAs then all but one.

If you want a bad FFA character, try Brawl Pit. Smashes took forever to KO besides Fsmash, which barely went from hit 1 to hit 2 without whiffing, had little range, and wasn't even that powerful. His only good KO moves were Glair and Bair. Bair was fast and had a lingering sourspot, but still had range issues. Glair was absurdly powerful, but horribly telegraphed and required flying straight into danger. He wasn't even that good at getting around or dealing with items. His air speed sucked, and gliding wouldn't let you get high enough to be safe without taking forever to jump up high enough. His Uspecial was great for mobility, but if he got hit out of it, he wouldn't get it back unless he touched ground. Only reason I ever did as well as I did was because you could get his Uspecial back without leaving the first one, AKA a glitch made him kinda good at getting around. Then with items, that made his recovery impossibly easy to gimp. Chuck one or two Beam Swords or whatever at him and he's dead. His Final Smash was terrible too... You'd be lucky to get a KO. At best he could hope to snag a few KOs and camp out the rest of the match.

Smash 4 Pit is completely different, if you're wondering. More differences between Brawl Pit and SSB4 Pit then between Ness and Lucas, honestly.

 

[DungeonMaster]

You can't even give her something good off of her grab because of how she was designed. Yes, some characters with tethers have good grab games. But Samus wasn't made with having a good grab game in mind.

You didn't follow my advice. You didn't read the combo thread, you didn't look at the videos.
Comments like the above display you are deliberately choosing to not understand the character in any depth.
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg#t=89
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=88
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=69

Are all examples of grab related true combos. The fact that they are stupidly difficult to pull off compared to say, luigi, ZSS, does not mean there is no grab game.
It means the grab game is stupidly difficult to pull off, for no good goddamn reason.
Particularly given the guaranteed penalty for a whiffed grab.

FFAs are just about perfectly balanced. If you did something like make her missiles autocancel or basically anything that'd maker her viable in 1v1s then it'd break FFAs.

Your opinion is duly noted, it is simply wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, not based on any fact, but that doesn't change the reality that it is wrong.
It will in no way "break FFA" for Samus' n-air, d-air to match onscreen animations.
It will in no way "break FFA" for Samus' grab to have less obscene end-lag or start up.
It will in no way "break FFA" for Samus' up-smash to connect properly, all of the time.
The list goes on with these "will not break FFA" requests. These are quality of life requests to avoid player frustration. Ease of use. We are not asking for the moon.

My patience has all but worn out. I am worried that rational arguments cannot convince you.

 

[JAZZ_]

I'm not saying that Sakurai only balances for FFA, I'm saying he won't make a change that negatively effects FFA.

FFAs are just about perfectly balanced. If you did something like make her missiles autocancel or basically anything that'd maker her viable in 1v1s then it'd break FFAs. You can't even give her something good off of her grab because of how she was designed. Yes, some characters with tethers have good grab games. But Samus wasn't made with having a good grab game in mind. Robin and DK can get hoo haas because their other weaknesses keep it in check in FFAs. Robin is slow as molasses and his grab range sucks, and DK is huge and going from grab > cargo > throw > aerial takes too much time in a FFA.



Apology accepted.

It's just that when you look around and ask people about their character in FFAs, it's always like "OMG, they're great now" and nobody can agree on a single best character in FFAs. I'm more inclined to think that every character is good in FFAs then all but one.

If you want a bad FFA character, try Brawl Pit. Smashes took forever to KO besides Fsmash, which barely went from hit 1 to hit 2 without whiffing, had little range, and wasn't even that powerful. His only good KO moves were Glair and Bair. Bair was fast and had a lingering sourspot, but still had range issues. Glair was absurdly powerful, but horribly telegraphed and required flying straight into danger. He wasn't even that good at getting around or dealing with items. His air speed sucked, and gliding wouldn't let you get high enough to be safe without taking forever to jump up high enough. His Uspecial was great for mobility, but if he got hit out of it, he wouldn't get it back unless he touched ground. Only reason I ever did as well as I did was because you could get his Uspecial back without leaving the first one, AKA a glitch made him kinda good at getting around. Then with items, that made his recovery impossibly easy to gimp. Chuck one or two Beam Swords or whatever at him and he's dead. His Final Smash was terrible too... You'd be lucky to get a KO. At best he could hope to snag a few KOs and camp out the rest of the match.

Smash 4 Pit is completely different, if you're wondering. More differences between Brawl Pit and SSB4 Pit then between Ness and Lucas, honestly.

yeah no Samus has a grab combo game, its there clear as day. Again I ask you to play as Samus exclusively for some time.
Samus isnt terrible in FFA, but she does consistently lack the KO count in a FFA match. meaning in a timed match Samus is at an immediate disadvantage. I dont know how many times I Spam Full charge CS all match and still come way behind the leader in KO's. in a stock match your still on the defensive back foot trying to outlive your opponents till it comes down to a 1v1 and then the 1v1 problems really show their colors.
And I know Brawl Pits kill problems. your talking to a guy who for nearly a decade played on Random 24/7. Ive been brawl pit, I lived the horror..
But heres the difference, we dont have to live with our character being stuck in the garbage tier like we had to with brawl. Because the devs are constantly tweaking each and every character they obviously want to improve their game and its balance, not just in FFA but in its entirety.
we as a community have a voice to make Reasonable suggestions that can help our character be more viable. I dont ever want them to tweak a character so much that it makes them OP as crap. I dont want that for Samus, I dont think any of us are asking for that.
the dream would be that even the lowest of tiers could compete with any of the cast, but thats not a reality yet.
And the game isnt perfect, I would like to see them keep tweaking the balance for some time with every character. Its just the fact that Samus has these flaws in her moves that werent intended to be there going unnoticed shows us we havent been heard yet.
so there is nothing wrong with us asking for the team to look at what we proposed. to say we shouldnt speak up is literally begging for conditions like brawl again. which if thats your opinion that is fine. That game still exists, you can play it anytime. clearly though smash 4 was intended to evolve beyond its initial release version. And thats the beauty of doing all this research and discussing these issues, its that they can be fixed. some things should be fixed, others could be fixed and still others are just wishful thinking.
The game doesnt break when you buff 1 or even 10 characters. Buffing Samus in these ways would not effect FFA, and in fact could help the game out.

 

[KenMeister]

Samus indeed has a grab game that can either lead into fair or uair juggles into Screw Attack, problem is that it's more DI dependent than most other characters who get more mileage than Samus anyway, and misinterpreting the DI often leads into a free punish, unfortunately.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-version-2-11-new-votes-from-the-28th-of-july.379736/

If you have not done so already this round, go to the above thread and vote Samus down. (Plus two other votes.) I think we need two or three more votes to get her down a tier. (Two people actually voted her up early on.) If we want people to realize how much Samus needs buffs, we need to make sure that the tier list doesn't overrate her.

Just one more down-vote needed here, provided no one upvotes. This could big, guys. Popular opinion is already turning our way. We just need a bit more.

Honestly, I think our problem in the past may be linked to the fact that we just haven't gone out there and complained enough. People have been whining about WFT forever and now she's been massively buffed, as she deserved. We just need to impress unto the community how badly Samus needs buffs.

Edit: Just for the record: I don't think Samus is actually in a tier of her own, below everybody else. But tier 8, although nobody's in it now, is the actual bottom tier on this list. Mii Swordfighter and Zelda got voted out of it so now it's vacant.

I think Dedede belongs in the bottom with Samus, with Mewtwo and maybe one or two other characters, but a lot of people (most who don't even main him) seem to think he's viable. He'll probably end up down there eventually; especially if he doesn't get buffed again.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Samus's grab game is present, and it's very very sad and ridiculously difficult to use consistently. I stopped maining Samus at about 1.0.9 because it was an uphill battle that had a ridiculous amount of work and rarely any payoff. (i still second in certain matchups!)

Meanwhile, Luigi gets 40% of a grab with fair, up air, up smash or fair fair nair into regrab, which can actually lead to death since he can easily full hop dair and footstool out of d-throw.


Sakurai saw this and thought
"hm. He needs an easier way to get grabs. Let's slightly nerf his ridiculous fireball and make d-tilt a grab setup. And Up-B kills easier. Perf."

No excuses as to why Samus is so legendarily neglected in Smash 4.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Okay, this might be stupid, but:
What if we started a "plz buff" alliance?

It seems like there are three underwhelming characters who have been completely overlooked when it comes to buffs.


King Dedede was actually nerfed pretty hard in one of the early patches. People justify this by saying that he'd be OP on the casual level otherwise, but Captain Falcon and Little Mac, as they currently are, are still more of an issue on that front. Just some little changes could go a long way with this guy. Like Gordos taking 1 or 2% more damage to be reflected. That would be huge in several of hi worst match-ups. His down-b, as it is, is damn near useless and that could use changing as well. Etc.

I don't think Jigglypuff has even been touched by the patches. She's not botttom tier anymore, but she could use some buffs here and there. She got some underserved nerfs from Brawl, even though she was buffed overall. (Not buffed enough. ZSS, who was already hight tier, got buffed more than her.) It would be huge if they could give Jiggs some way to combo into rest at KO percents. (I think sourspot fair into rest is a thing, but it doesn't seem very reliable and I don't know how it is at higher percents.) I think she has one of the worst sets of specials in the game. Rollout is not a good recovery move. Sing is dangerous and unreliable. Rest is situational and punishable. Pound is her only move that she'll be using on a consistent basis, and even it probably isn't as good as it used to be. The shield damage is nice, but shields recover so fast in this game that it seems like unless you break a shield in one go, it's pointless. (It still applies a lot of pressure though, which is good.)

Samus, we all know about.

The mains of these characters could help each other out, and we would all benefit from having more people actively campaigning. This way, instead of three separate groups of mains supporting only their own character, we would be showing more unity and demonstrating a communal consensus.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Okay, this might be stupid, but:
What if we started a "plz buff" alliance?

It seems like there are three underwhelming characters who have been completely overlooked when it comes to buffs.


King Dedede was actually nerfed pretty hard in one of the early patches. People justify this by saying that he'd be OP on the casual level otherwise, but Captain Falcon and Little Mac, as they currently are, are still more of an issue on that front. Just some little changes could go a long way with this guy. Like Gordos taking 1 or 2% more damage to be reflected. That would be huge in several of hi worst match-ups. His down-b, as it is, is damn near useless and that could use changing as well. Etc.

I don't think Jigglypuff has even been touched by the patches. She's not botttom tier anymore, but she could use some buffs here and there. She got some underserved nerfs from Brawl, even though she was buffed overall. It would be huge if they could give some way to combo into rest at KO percents.

Samus, we all know about.

The mains of these characters could help each other out, and we would all benefit from having more people actively campaigning. This way, instead of three separate groups of mains supporting only their own character, we would be showing more unity and demonstrating a communal consensus.

We're already doing something on Miiverse (4 of us anyway)

 

[KenMeister]

Okay, this might be stupid, but:
What if we started a "plz buff" alliance?

It seems like there are three underwhelming characters who have been completely overlooked when it comes to buffs.


King Dedede was actually nerfed pretty hard in one of the early patches. People justify this by saying that he'd be OP on the casual level otherwise, but Captain Falcon and Little Mac, as they currently are, are still more of an issue on that front. Just some little changes could go a long way with this guy. Like Gordos taking 1 or 2% more damage to be reflected. That would be huge in several of hi worst match-ups. His down-b, as it is, is damn near useless and that could use changing as well. Etc.

I don't think Jigglypuff has even been touched by the patches. She's not botttom tier anymore, but she could use some buffs here and there. She got some underserved nerfs from Brawl, even though she was buffed overall. (Not buffed enough. ZSS, who was already hight tier, got buffed more than her.) It would be huge if they could give Jiggs some way to combo into rest at KO percents. (I think sourspot fair into rest is a thing, but it doesn't seem very reliable and I don't know how it is at higher percents.) I think she has one of the worst sets of specials in the game. Rollout is not a good recovery move. Sing is dangerous and unreliable. Rest is situational and punishable. Pound is her only move that she'll be using on a consistent basis, and even it probably isn't as good as it used to be. The shield damage is nice, but shields recover so fast in this game that it seems like unless you break a shield in one go, it's pointless. (It still applies a lot of pressure though, which is good.)

Samus, we all know about.

The mains of these characters could help each other out, and we would all benefit from having more people actively campaigning. This way, instead of three separate groups of mains supporting only their own character, we would be showing more unity and demonstrating a communal consensus.

I'd be all for supporting some good buffs for Samus' moveset to be fixed. I actually wanted to main her given she fits my playstyle well, but the fact her moveset is so dang whiffy and vulnerable to low priority and SDI makes her an unlikely choice for me in a serious setting. If her moves actually, y'know, worked, I'd drop everyone and main her full-time. Her good mixups, charge shot and varied combo game make me keep coming back to her currently.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

We're already doing something on Miiverse (4 of us anyway)

I'm gonna be completely honest with you: I see people talking about Miiverse a lot, but I don't actually know what it is. Some kind of official online community? I don't have a computer right now, so I can't do much. With my phone service as bad as it is, it's hard enough just posting on SBoards.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I'm gonna be completely honest with you: I see people talking about Miiverse a lot, but I don't actually know what it is. Some kind of official online community? I don't have a computer right now, so I can't do much. With my phone service as bad as it is, it's hard enough just posting on SBoards.

...it's nintendo's facebook. On Wii U and 3DS.

 

[zblaqk]

I'd be all for supporting some good buffs for Samus' moveset to be fixed. I actually wanted to main her given she fits my playstyle well, but the fact her moveset is so dang whiffy and vulnerable to low priority and SDI makes her an unlikely choice for me in a serious setting. If her moves actually, y'know, worked, I'd drop everyone and main her full-time. Her good mixups, charge shot and varied combo game make me keep coming back to her currently.

I feel somewhat the same way, mostly because I really enjoy mix-up characters but yeah she needs some tweaks for sure. I'm just going to continue playing her and wait patiently for some patching....


"Waiting Intensifies"

 

[Tonetta]

Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

The video is very stupid yes I agree.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Yes. Because that's how Sakurai balances the game.

And every Samus I ask outside of this board, and some inside, say that she works well in FFAs. Actually, the only people who don't think she's even viable in FFA are very biased against Sakurai and everything he does or is one of you whiners.

Let's see, none of the top tiers had any major nerfs without some form of compensation, almost every buff to the low tiers has either been almost unnoticable or still doesn't fix their crippling flaws overall. Almost like they're trying to not break something else, hm?

That never happens. Nobody is going to let somebody attack a weaker player for even a moment because they want it for themselves. Which leads to the stronger ones fighting each other, which leads to somebody camping, which then repeats the cycle. Most matches give Samus plenty of space. Samus herself wins just as much as the other characters from my experience and basically everybody else's.

Here's the thing... If she was bad on FFAs, she would of been buffed a long time ago because there's tons of bad Samus players on there to show Sakurai, right? Samus is a common character on Glory mode in general... And yet she's had a Usmash fix, some shaved frames off of her grabs, and not much else. If you think Sakurai is biased against her, you're going to be laughed out of any sensible room. Haven't seen a Smashbros forum that hasn't been making fun of that video you guys made either. Sakurai listens, but to the fanbase at large and not the mains of one character.

The Up Smash and grab frame buffs are not significant. They don't buff the core strengths and weaknesses of the character, and Up smash still misses most characters.

You know what Up Smash is the same, but hits everyone in the cast?
Mii gunner.

Mii Gunner also has Samus's d-tilt, but at 14% damage with actual KO power.
Samus's d-tilt got nerfed to 12%, killing at extremelly high percents, and only working as a combo starter at low percents. Mii Gunner can basicslly be played like Samus in FFA, and she's only been getting buffed.

It's like 1.0.3 Falco. It's like you're being punished for attempting to play the character in 1v1.

 

[leiraD]

Lancer, the last couple of posts gave me a lot more insight into your reasoning and perception of what the game is. You have nearly 5000 posts so I assumed you were a more advanced player / expert.

I think you should do a few things:
#1 Fight better players. What you are saying in fighting game terminology is that you feel Samus is good at camping. Good players will not sit back and watch someone camp in FFA. In your specific, rather hilariously simplistic example, C.falcon would likely charge after Samus - and easily keep up with her since he runs/jumps/falls literally twice as fast. Both Falcon AND Luigi will turn on Samus if she gets a lead in any way and she cannot out-camp two players, it's all but impossible. You try to kill the leader and hunt the weak. That's FFA at a respectable level of play.
#2 Watch some videos from actual Samus players before you comment further. There are some very nice compilations, just this week Tonetta and Afrosmash put out some noteworthy ones.
#3 You say: "Most KO moves are horizontal (...) You can't give Samus anything powerful or combos (...)" Samus has tons, and tons of true combos. You will see them in compilation videos, you could look at my own compilations for instance, and there is a thread linked at the top of the forum detailing nearly 300 in gory detail. I don't really know what to say about most KO moves being "horizontal". This game is literally structured around having advantage over targets above you.

I'm not trying to be condescending, it's that you've said a bunch of things that are flat out wrong and ring alarm bells in my (and clearly other people's) minds.

This is everything that needs to be said.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Sorta wished Samus had missile cancelling.
It feels like Samus will never be buffed. Even Wii fit got a buff!
Honestly dare I say it I had more fun maining Samus in Brawl at some points.
What are the devs doing!

 

[SpandexBullets]

Sorta wished Samus had missile cancelling.
It feels like Samus will never be buffed. Even Wii fit got a buff!
Honestly dare I say it I had more fun maining Samus in Brawl at some points.
What are the devs doing!

Missile cancelling is pretty much out of the question - neeeeeever gonna happen.

Besides SM not killing, her projectile game is very fine (besides bomb). It's her close-range and spacing tools that need a buff. That's:
Zair
F-tilt
D-tilt
U-tilt
Nair
Up-air
Dair
D-smash
F-smash
Up-smash
(And aforementioned projectiles)
And I don't know make her airspeed and short-hop better

 

[Hapajin]

Sometimes for kicks, I play with custom Samus plus equipment (yes heresy) and use only speed buffs, it's super fun, the airspeed component is really nice, but probably an unlikely buff.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Sometimes for kicks, I play with custom Samus plus equipment (yes heresy) and use only speed buffs, it's super fun, the airspeed component is really nice, but probably an j likely buff.

She could do with slightly buffed airspeed...

 

[Hark17ball]

What do you want from Zair? I'm hoping it gets a DMG buff to match Links. Ours does 1/3 his does 2/4.

 

[Tonetta]

What do you want from Zair? I'm hoping it gets a DMG buff to match Links. Ours does 1/3 his does 2/4.

His also has like half the range.