1.10 Balance change speculation?

[❤ Nikodemus05]

Can we get rid of this idea? I'm not targeting you specifically Skellyton, but the idea, specifically.
These buff/nerfs of other characters do not have a major impact on FFA games. No one is going to notice Luigi's forward air going from 9 -> 8% or fireballs going from 40 -> 43 frames in an FFA setting. It's just not relevant. These are ALL targeted 1v1 changes.
Sakurai deliberately increased Ness' down-air hitbox - and reduced his absorber endlag to nill.
Sakurai deliberately removed teching from Falco's d-air to allow guaranteed follow ups, and created ryu as a combo character with no teching of any of his starters at all.
Sakurai deliberately increased Link's tether grab range, reduced its end-lag and even this time around improved T.Link's tether grab.
Sakurai deliberately made Yoshi's b-air multi-hit connect better when it already connected way better than any of Samus' multihits.
Sakurai deliberately improved throw combos for a host of characters making it much easier for them to link and acquire damage, and left Samus' grab follow ups as hard to execute.
Sakurai deliberately increased Diddy Kong's, Gannon's, Mewtwo (the list goes on..) d-smash growth and knockback/damage.
Sakurai deliberately reduced Greeninja's water shuriken startup and end frames, they are now at 45 frames, he can shoot 4 in the space we shoot 3 of Samus' missiles.
Sakurai deliberately made Metaknight's hitboxes match his animations.

Let's be totally clear: Every single change Samus mains and casual players alike have identified as possible improvements to the character to level the playing field have been given in some form to other characters. There is no a-priori reason or rationale to specifically ignore this character for any of the changes he has chosen to make to other characters. This is BIAS.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Afro Smash]

btw @ DungeonMaster I'd like to help make that video showing all of Samus flaws

Some ideas i have so far

• Pivot grab endlag being punished by ganons up tilt or a fox running full stage length to up smash us
• missile end lag being punished by falcon ff knee
• fox running/walking through a trail of bombs and up smashing us
• getting jabbed/grabbed out of our jab on hit, sour f tilt too
• f smash whiffs
• up smash being absoulte **** on platforms, generally not vacuuming, maybe somone falling out of up smash and up smashing us
• d smash not killing til 200%, have her flachback/reminisce about brawl/melee d smash
• showing all other tethers getting kills from their grabs 1 at a time, then samus awkwardly trying to throw kill her opps at 200%

Looking back at my post in the 'ideal changes for samus to become viable' thread, the funny thing is literally nothing I suggested was a 'buff', it was just making the moves ****ing work like they should. D-Tilt combos and 10% earlier up b kills are **** that I'd quite like to see, but with our basic moves remaining broken, actual buffs are nothin but a pipedream.

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

@ Afro Smash @ DungeonMaster I'm looking forward to this. I'll make sure to post it everywhere I can on Reddit, Smashboards, etc.

To start things off; https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...portant_discussion_relating_to_samus_and_the/

 

[DungeonMaster]

btw @ DungeonMaster I'd like to help make that video showing all of Samus flaws

I'm very motivated now. Let's do it.
It was on my backburner since I'm a busy guy but this latest round of changes has infuriated me yet again and I'm really going to do it now.
Let's collect the most egregious ridiculous stuff we have to cope with. I'll create a new thread here as well.

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

I'm very motivated now. Let's do it.
It was on my backburner since I'm a busy guy but this latest round of changes has infuriated me yet again and I'm really going to do it now.
Let's collect the most egregious ridiculous stuff we have to cope with. I'll create a new thread here as well.

Hell yeah, let's do it. I'll be spreading the word.

 

[Varia31]

Real talk with the release of the Samus mii Gunner outfit and no buffs Sakurai really is just trying to say 'there is absolutely no reason to play Samus'

I know, right? I got the costume, sure (it is cool looking), but at the same time, I can't help but feel a bit insulted. It doesn't help that Mii Gunner does a few things better than Samus already (e.g. Up Smash, Down Smash, missiles are slower but home better, etc.). Mii Gunner might as well be a "make-your-own Samus now".

I honestly don't know what I can say that hasn't already been said... But hey, obviously a high-octane super soldier that's known for having insane mobility, strength, and firepower should totally be just some campy, slow, not-actually-a-specialist-at-anything instead, right? /sarcasm

Sorry, I'm a bit ticked off about this, too, if you couldn't tell...

 

[Goldliner]

Really wish Sakurai would give Samus the proper treatment she deserves and stop neglecting her because his testers don't know how to get around projectiles. Literally every buff that Samus has needed, Sakurai has given to other characters, indirectly making her worse.

 

[JAZZ_]

I'm playing splatoon this week, forget smash, the injustice is ridiculous
We need our voices heard gosh dangit!!!!!

 

[Jonny Westside]

I'm staying positive. They probably chose who to work on before anything happened at EVO. Now that they worked on everyone BUT her and she wasn't used at EVO at all.....next patch could be focused on her.

Hi. I'm Jonny westside and I used default Samus all the way at Evo. I think I placed 49th losing to Mr R. And a PR Diddy from Texas.

Pretty sure I was the highest placing Samus.

 

[Afro Smash]

Ay nice placing man, did you get any stream time at all? and a PR Daddy?

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ Jonny Westside You should really post that in Xyro's tournament results thread. That's the best result ever for a Samus main, with over 1000 entrants, no small feat.

 

[Hark17ball]

Thats what I get for trusting GFaqs...they made a list of characters who didnt get used.. Samus being one of them lol

@ Jonny Westside Congrats man that's so awesome! How was the EVO experience as a whole?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

The worst part is that I was really happy with this patch overall. I mean, they fixed a lot of issues and made a lot of characters better. I guess I was just expecting Samus to get something too.

Samus needs buffs far more than Ness needs a better damn d-air.

 

[zeldasmash]

As someone who has greatly enjoyed playing Samus in every smash game (even Brawl), i feel sad that Samus is being this mistreated. Buff Yoshi, Buff Luigi, keep Samus the way she is.....Sakurai, do we fans have to have video proof that Samus needs way more than what she already has? Zelda, despite being bad, at least got buffed in the previous patch. The more and more patches come & go, the more people start to see Samus as a joke! Samus needs improvements so stop buffing already good characters like Yoshi & Luigi and buff characters that need it.

 

[Hapajin]

I like how even zero thinks Samus needs buffs
https://youtu.be/bpp-b2zxmD0
His requests for Samus are pretty implausible, but it's nice to see such I high profile smasher acknowledging her awfulness

 

[Boney]

Hi. I'm Jonny westside and I used default Samus all the way at Evo. I think I placed 49th losing to Mr R. And a PR daddy from Texas.

Pretty sure I was the highest placing Samus.

Awesome! Shame we missed you on stream it seems. No Samus were on

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Times like these really make me wish Sakurwhy stayed with the Kirby series. Someone so situationally close minded and anti competitive should have NO business WHATSOEVER developing a fighting game.

Whoa don't dump him my Kirby, he hates sequels, so that series would be rotting as we speak! Kirby has gone so far and maybe better off than without Sakurai.

 

[Zaprong]

Charge shot got buffed (at least fully charged anyway).

Comparing side by side with the 3ds version, Samus's charge shot does 28 instead of 25. Which could mean potentially easier shield breaks?

 

[Hark17ball]

Charge shot got buffed (at least fully charged anyway).

Comparing side by side with the 3ds version, Samus's charge shot does 28 instead of 25. Which could mean potentially easier shield breaks?

Are you sure a bomb didnt go off next to it or something?

 

[KayJay]

Charge shot does 25 damage pre-patch and after the patch.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Charge shot got buffed (at least fully charged anyway).

Comparing side by side with the 3ds version, Samus's charge shot does 28 instead of 25. Which could mean potentially easier shield breaks?

You're probably using custom equipment by mistake.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Early this morning:
Me: Damn, Samus got no buffs that annoys me to hell.
Bro: Sorry to hear that man.
Interested in mii costumes?
Me: Not a fan of miis sees Samus costume.
!!!
Bro: Bro calmed down... Its OK.
Me: why? SakuWhy?

 

[zblaqk]

Regardless of patches, I still enjoy playing her. Not to say it wouldnt be nice if she buffed her a bit but hey... no nerfs is erm... good?

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

Mark my words. When/If Samus gets properly patched she will be damn near worthy of being top tier. Despite all of her current flaws we're able (though we struggle) to keep up with the majority of the cast

 

[Zaprong]

Whoops, my apologies, I seriously thought I saw it doing 28 damage against the sandbag but it seems like not, my bad.

 

[Jonny Westside]

@ Jonny Westside You should really post that in Xyro's tournament results thread. That's the best result ever for a Samus main, with over 1000 entrants, no small feat.

I'll need to look up the full results for Evo.

 

[Emerlad_Element]

Whoops, my apologies, I seriously thought I saw it doing 28 damage against the sandbag but it seems like not, my bad.

Ha, it's all good. Charge shot does 28 to sandbag for some reason.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Awesome! Shame we missed you on stream it seems. No Samus were on

My final WFs pool set was suppose to be on stream, but they opted to not let me to play due to time constraints.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

We need our voices heard gosh dangit!!!!!

I think this is one of our biggest issues. I feel we are easily one of (If not the) most quiet player bases in Smash. This could tend to us missing out on things, even if they ARE REALLY FREAKING OBVIOUS AND TOTALLY FREAKING STUPID (Read: F-Smash Blind Spot, Up-Smash dropping people, Our damn throw, Pikachu, etc.) and generally, that hurts us as if everyone around us is getting better, we're getting closet nerfed. I believe that there are a lot more Samus users out there that we don't know of (And I'm not talking about people that go "Oh check that Robot out! It has a gun for an arm!") that stay quiet because they don't see a point in even trying because of things like this patch. It's up to people that can go to the tourneys to start a voice or something to actually get us heard and keep going.

And if I'm wrong, let me know, because I probably am because I never know what I'm talking about anyways. Go Armstrong!

 

[SpandexBullets]

I feel really, really, really not ok about this.

How about we start something with the miiverse page and twitter and stuff, like a phrase expressing outrage at Samus's almost legendary neglect in a game as layered and amazing as Smash 4.

#SamusIsTheGirl
#That'sNorfair
#ReturnOfSamus
#JustinBailey

They can't really ignore something like that, not like they ignored Samus for 10 patches.

 

[ZombieBran]

Characters [...] worse then Samus

Who are these mythological characters???

 

[SkylarBird]

I believe that there are a lot more Samus users out there that we don't know of (And I'm not talking about people that go "Oh check that Robot out! It has a gun for an arm!") that stay quiet because they don't see a point in even trying because of things like this patch. It's up to people that can go to the tourneys to start a voice or something to actually get us heard and keep going.

That's essentially the boat I've in for the longest time. I've since decided to pick up Samus again anyways because I just love playing her so darn much. I hope some other people will do so, too. The more people that play her, the more likely it is she will get noticed and (hopefully) fixed.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Times like these really make me wish Sakurwhy stayed with the Kirby series. Someone so situationally close minded and anti competitive should have NO business WHATSOEVER developing a fighting game.

What an entitled way of thinking. You want Sakurai to have stayed with Kirby instead rather than having a hand in developing Smash Bros. (which current iteration may not have existed without his creative input) just because your favorite character hasn't gotten any buffs yet? Talk about spoiled. Not saying I don't want a stronger Samus, but at the end of the day she is only a small part of something much bigger, so saying that he has no business in Smash is beyond wrong. The good he has done for this series completely outweighs the bad.

Yes, it sucks that Samus has gotten no changes at the moment but is ironic how you claim that that he is close minded and anti-competitive when a lot of other underperforming characters have been getting much needed buffs as well to prove you wrong. Samus's turn will have to come sooner or later, there are still balance patches left in the future. Keep pointing out her flaws and perhaps she will get some attention, I know that a lot here are desperate to see buffs for her but the bratty and cynical attitude is not helping.

 

[LancerStaff]

You see weak characters get buffs... But they're still largely irrelevant. Strong characters get nerfs... And they're not even hit that hard. Sakurai has been largely conservative with the changes. You know why? Because he's trying to keep FFAs balanced, regardless of the competitive community's opinions. Unless Samus suddenly stops working in FFAs, she's not going to get anything major. You're asking for the impossible.

 

[MOI-ARI]

You see weak characters get buffs... But they're still largely irrelevant. Strong characters get nerfs... And they're not even hit that hard. Sakurai has been largely conservative with the changes. You know why? Because he's trying to keep FFAs balanced, regardless of the competitive community's opinions. Unless Samus suddenly stops working in FFAs, she's not going to get anything major. You're asking for the impossible.

This is actually the legit reason why. if not, then MOST LIKELY the reason. It has indeed been confirmed that this is what the game is actually balanced around. Everything, BUT 1v1 it seems?
Its a dark road we are traversing. If next patch there's nothing for her...then yikes. Sorry fellas.

But i want to still stay hopeful. She truly deserves a buff, any buff the most out of anybody in sm4sh.

 

[Hapajin]

I play lots of casual matches and FFAs with my friends at school, Samus' issues still stick out in FFAs too. Having the worst roll, grab, Usmash, Dsmash, and throws are all awful to have in a four-8 player match. If people somehow are doing really well with her in FFAs, and I just don't know about it, kudos to them, but actually good characters will demolish Samus in a FFA as well as 1v1. No difference in my experience.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is actually the legit reason why. if not, then MOST LIKELY the reason. It has indeed been confirmed that this is what the game is actually balanced around. Everything, BUT 1v1 it seems?
Its a dark road we are traversing. If next patch there's nothing for her...then yikes. Sorry fellas.

But i want to still stay hopeful. She truly deserves a buff, any buff the most out of anybody in sm4sh.

You can do things like give Charizard a combo throw and an easily interrupted KO throw without effecting the overall FFA balance. Most combos don't really work in FFAs, actually.

 

[ZombieBran]

I'm willing to believe they try to balance across all modes, given things like Ganondorf's trophy ( and his entire moveset), but Sakurai is reportedly a genius designer and I'm sure he takes 1v1 into account. Making Samus less of a one trick pony (CS in FFAs) wouldn't even break her in FFAs.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm willing to believe they try to balance across all modes, given things like Ganondorf's trophy ( and his entire moveset), but Sakurai is reportedly a genius designer and I'm sure he takes 1v1 into account. Making Samus less of a one trick pony (CS in FFAs) wouldn't even break her in FFAs.

Samus is balanced by her disability to defend herself. She's durable and gets tons of KOs with charge shot. If you notice, there's a similar theme with characters with charge shot-like moves. Mewtwo is absurdly powerful but light, Robin's goes through opponents but has it's own drawbacks and he's physically slow, WFT has janky hitboxes, and then Lucario is only really viable one because the chaos of FFAs keeps aura in check.

 

[Hapajin]

Its funny that charge shot is brought up, considering its like, the only charged attack that can't be charged in the air, making it even more situational to use.
Add in the fact that a good chunk of the cast has reflectors or other ranged counters as well, one of Samus' best tools in FFAs (and 1v1s), is made significantly less viable. If I'm on the sidelines trying to use charge shot to net all my kills, not only are my (casual, by the way) opponents quick to use their reflectors, but I also become the target player. With weak grabs, rolls, and standard attacks, Samus pretty much suffers the same in a FFA. IMO, Samus is designed to make the person playing as her frustrated.

Compare this Samus to Melee and PM Samus (who is better in nearly every aspect) to SSB4 Samus, and she does just fine in FFAs, but is far from overpowered in these scenarios. I mean, has anyone else noticed Samus dominating FFAs so much in previous smash games?