1.10 Balance change speculation?

[leiraD]

Missile cancelling is pretty much out of the question - neeeeeever gonna happen.

Besides SM not killing, her projectile game is very fine (besides bomb). It's her close-range and spacing tools that need a buff. That's:
Zair
F-tilt
D-tilt
U-tilt
Nair
Up-air
Dair
D-smash
F-smash
Up-smash
(And aforementioned projectiles)
And I don't know make her airspeed and short-hop better

Zair - I think is pretty good, but damage could be better
F-tilt - should go back to pre-patch
D-tilt - Should kill at 160%
U-tilt - A little faster would be nice
Nair - bring back the sex kick or make the hitboxes bigger
Up-air - love it
Dair - shrink the sour spot, a little faster
D-smash - kills at 140%
F-smash - fix the hitbox
Up-smash - fix the hitbox

 

[Hark17ball]

His also has like half the range.

Well i stand by what I said! (In hindsight thanks! Never knew that.)

I like @ leiraD list. Its nothing absurd or broken.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Zair - I think is pretty good, but damage could be better
F-tilt - should go back to pre-patch
D-tilt - Should kill at 160%
U-tilt - A little faster would be nice
Nair - bring back the sex kick or make the hitboxes bigger
Up-air - love it
Dair - shrink the sour spot, a little faster
D-smash - kills at 140%
F-smash - fix the hitbox
Up-smash - fix the hitbox

Zair - autocancel, 4% throughout the whole thing
F-tilt - pre-patch, 1% more damage
D-tilt - 14%, KO's at 135%
U-tilt - untechable, like Falco's dair
Nair - YEH BUDDEH
Up-air - tip of move sucks in opponent, easier to link into final hit/ground opponent if cancelled into the stage
Dair - No sourspot
D-smash - yes
F-smash - smaller sourspot
Up-smash - YES

 

[apparently fuz]

Samus really needs some work to be even remotely useful. She's the unintentional joke character of this game.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Samus really needs some work to be even remotely useful. She's the unintentional joke character of this game.

Oi don't spit on our gurl

She's a solid counter in certain matchups, even if that does overly rely on lack of knowledge with the matchup (Example; Esam at Evo)

 

[apparently fuz]

Oi don't spit on our gurl

She's a solid counter in certain matchups, even if that does overly rely on lack of knowledge with the matchup (Example; Esam at Evo)

It's the truth.
And in what matchups is she a solid counter in?

 

[SpandexBullets]

It's the truth.
And in what matchups is she a solid counter in?

I've used her in Peach/Falcon/Yoshi/Luigi/Bowser/(basically every heavy character) matchups because I main Lucas, who has an awkward time with rushdown/invasive opponents. (Sometimes Ness too!)

She has great weight, range and all of her moves come out pretty fast, and a walk-off fair is an excellent gimping tool for characters with slow-awkward recoveries.

 

[leiraD]

It's the truth.
And in what matchups is she a solid counter in?

I think that most Samus players consider the most exaggerate counter picks are DK, Luigi, and Ryu. Samus pretty much wrecks those three.

 

[Blue Warrior]

I don't ever expect Samus to be a great character, I just want some of her dumb issues fixed. Jab shouldn't be interruptible no matter what your intended design is for the character.

 

[leiraD]

I don't ever expect Samus to be a great character, I just want some of her dumb issues fixed. Jab shouldn't be interruptible no matter what your intended design is for the character.

Word

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't ever expect Samus to be a great character, I just want some of her dumb issues fixed. Jab shouldn't be interruptible no matter what your intended design is for the character.

complain about it all you want its not gunna change so might as well fgure out other buffs instead since that flaw is 100 percent intentional.
for the most part people should just be using mega bomb for everything. it solves like 70 percent of her qcq issues.

 

[Gypsy_Panic]

I don't ever expect Samus to be a great character, I just want some of her dumb issues fixed. Jab shouldn't be interruptible no matter what your intended design is for the character.

I never looked it up so I'm just curios. Why is it that Jab1 doesn't connect properly with Jab2? I understand that it's intentional. But why on earth would you possibly do that intentionally? What positive purpose does/could that have?

 

[SpandexBullets]

I never looked it up so I'm just curios. Why is it that Jab1 doesn't connect properly with Jab2? I understand that it's intentional. But why on earth would you possibly do that intentionally? What positive purpose does/could that have?

Sakurai hates Samus because to him she's basically metaknight

Which is so strange because Zero Suit Samus...

Also AAA death wheel I love your profile pic

 

[KenMeister]

I'm going to leave my thoughts for changes here:

Jab: Well, ya' know
Ftilt: Make it one hitbox
Dtilt: Either less KB like Melee for followups, or more KB like Brawl for KOs
Utilt: Make it non-techable
Nair: Since I don't see the animation changing, I'd give it way less startup and more KB. 8 frames is reeeally bad for a nair. Link's nair is 7 frames AND stronger than Samus'. WTF
Dair: Non-techable like Falco's dair
Uair: Hits connect better, sorta like Sheik's uair
Fair: Less landing lag and hits connecting better
Bair: Less cooldown to perform double bair in a short-hop
Dash attack: Just make it Falcon's dash attack, where hitboxes last the whole duration. lol
Upsmash: Hitboxes on both sides of Samus to connect hits better
Dsmash: Melee dsmash
Fsmash: Bigger hitbox, smaller sourspot
Missiles: Less endlag, SM should kill
Screw Attack: More priority so it isn't interrupted by a jab. -_-
Bombs: Bomb on impact like Melee
Charge Shot: Nerfed to Melee Charge shot, less power and more startup, but not as bad as Brawl's
Zair: Constant 4% damage from Brawl should be back
Grab: Waaay less endlag and throw followups shouldn't be super succeptible to DI

 

[Tonetta]

I think the biggest change that samus needs is her players' attitude towards the character.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I think the biggest change that samus needs is her players' attitude towards the character.

You're gonna have to be more specific. You're coming off as very condescending. As it stands, attitudes don't effect frame data and poor hitbox placement. Unless you know something nobody else does.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I don't think Tonetta's being condescending, it's likely a reaction to the rampant negativity. For what it's worth, I still love Samus in this game and I'm definitely NOT switching my main even if future patches nerf her further.
When I switch to sheik and rosa occasionally, yeah the game is definitely easier to play with them, but there's not much depth. Spitting out hitboxes is easy.
I often find myself looking at CS tech chase situations thinking "wow if only I had a CS.... but I have a luma...". When I hit the magic percentages "Here we go! Time to shine! ah.... wait... there's nothing cool to do. I guess I'll, uh, try for f-air.,, again..." I get little satisfaction out of it.
It also doesn't feel very comfortable. I never feel heavy and strong. When I get a lead as the lightweights, I never feel really powerful, dominant. I still feel there's a good chance of my opponent making a comeback. When I get the lead as Samus, I always have the thought: "you're @#%ed, it's over". You get the CS when they're re-spawning and all the low % combos.

I think we really need the cathartic video exposing ALL of the issues so we can move on and stop the griping and maybe get some exposure.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oi don't spit on our gurl

She's a solid counter in certain matchups, even if that does overly rely on lack of knowledge with the matchup (Example; Esam at Evo)

MU inexperience is a not a criteria for what makes a character a counter in a MU. At that point, you're just counterpicking the player himself/herself. It is silly to confuse the two.

Sakurai hates Samus because to him she's basically metaknight

What does this mean? He likes Meta Knight. And we've been buffed up progressively from what people consider to be a trash character to what it is now a high tier character. We've received buffs almost every balance patch. I fail to see the parallels.

 

[SpandexBullets]

MU inexperience is a not a criteria for what makes a character a counter in a MU. At that point, you're just counterpicking the player himself/herself. It is silly to confuse the two.




What does this mean? He likes Meta Knight. And we've been buffed up progressively from what people consider to be a trash character to what it is now a high tier character. We've received buffs almost every balance patch. I fail to see the parallels.

Yeah, sorry. "Solid" was a gross exaggeration.
It is the best example of Samus in high level play tho, and I wanted to emphasise the fact that MU inexperience was a significant factor in that match. My bad.

I was being a weenie about Sakurai hating Samus :3

Buuuuut...1.0.2 Metaknight was ridiculous, arguably the worst character behind Falco. He has been buffed since, but they've all been quite small in contrast to Ike/Wii fit/Charizard buffs; Sakurai never deals with MK's serious range issues.
It's almost like Sakurai is afraid of accidentally making him overpowered, as MK's incredible range in Brawl was one of the biggest factors that gave him his notorious dominance in the Brawl meta.

In that same vein, Sakurai initially remarked that he was apprehensive of how powerful Samus was, which was confirmed at E3 when he and Reggie basically told the world that their team and the players agreed that Samus was the GOAT - that's the most popular reason you'll see on Samus boards as to why she hasn't been buffed in 10 patches; Sakurai thinks Samus is already incredible.

 

[Tonetta]

I never looked it up so I'm just curios. Why is it that Jab1 doesn't connect properly with Jab2? I understand that it's intentional. But why on earth would you possibly do that intentionally? What positive purpose does/could that have?

It's intentional because we have excellent spacing tools in both missles, cs, and zair and the threat of cs forces almost all of the cast to approach us and we already have other great intercept options. Also jab 1 comes out on frame 3 and can combo with all sorts of other stuff at various percentages, I'm perfectly fine with jab 1-2 not linking up pre 40%, especially when we have true combo's that deal 40% from 0%.

 

[Blue Warrior]

They don't even need to link up, they just need to do their job consistently and not punish me for successfully connecting with the first jab. If it's supposed to be a shove, make it an actual shove.

 

[Hark17ball]

They don't even need to link up, they just need to do their job consistently and not punish me for successfully connecting with the first jab. If it's supposed to be a shove, make it an actual shove.

I agree its dumb most characters can counter our Jab1/Ftilt with their full Jab combo pre ~35%. But i do agree with @ Tonetta on the attitude part. I don't want everyone thinking the Samus community is a bunch of babies who just whine until we get our way. As @ DungeonMaster said so we can move on and stop the griping.

 

[FlAlex]

If it's supposed to be a shove, make it an actual shove.

Would that really be an improvement for Samus? I thought everybody loved the combos jab1 enabled in the forum
Various Samus Tech (Update! Jab 1 OP)

If Jab1 was a push then we probably wouldn't have these combos. Is it worth it? (Not a rhetorical question. Do u guys actually want that?)

The more we talk about how bad Samus is, the more I feel nobody has the same ideas for how Samus needs buffed/fixed. I know its objective to say that screwattack and Fair need tweeking to insure ALL hits make contact, but then there are things like how to fix f-tilt and Nair and we don't seem to be on the same page besides general properties. In the case of f-tilt, everyone wants it to be safe. But how would we like it to be safe? Should there just be one single, universal hitbox throughout the leg? Do some of us want the tipper-mechanic in our F-tilt? This goes double for super missiles. Some want a slower missile, some want a faster one.

Just wondering.

 

[Tonetta]

Yes, I do want jab 1 to remain as is.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Would that really be an improvement for Samus? I thought everybody loved the combos jab1 enabled in the forum
Various Samus Tech (Update! Jab 1 OP)

If Jab1 was a push then we probably wouldn't have these combos. Is it worth it? (Not a rhetorical question. Do u guys actually want that?)

The more we talk about how bad Samus is, the more I feel nobody has the same ideas for how Samus needs buffed/fixed. I know its objective to say that screwattack and Fair need tweeking to insure ALL hits make contact, but then there are things like how to fix f-tilt and Nair and we don't seem to be on the same page besides general properties. In the case of f-tilt, everyone wants it to be safe. But how would we like it to be safe? Should there just be one single, universal hitbox throughout the leg? Do some of us want the tipper-mechanic in our F-tilt? This goes double for super missiles. Some want a slower missile, some want a faster one.

Just wondering.

Uh...fair? Up B? (They connect fine!)

If any multi-hit attack should get buffed to connect better, it should be up-air! (Parts of Samus's legs don't draw the opponent in, which puts Samus in anawkward and easily hittable position.)

Given less BKB, it would be a better combo tool for connecting bairs, fairs, CS, and Up B!

Also put away the jab 1 fingerfoams.
All those jab 1 combos rely on the opponent being in the air when they're jabbed - consistently performing these combos in high level play is about as hard as Falco's dair cancel.
We need a fast, consistent jab to interrupt CQC and put opponents on the defensive, because Samus can't deal with fast rushdown characters that can deal with her projectiles.

 

[Afro Smash]

I definitely want Jab 1 to change so that it's safe on hit, and I would trade it for a combo'ing Jab in a heartbeat, the combos it brings at high percents are nice though

 

[SpandexBullets]

I definitely want Jab 1 to change so that it's safe on hit, and I would trade it for a combo'ing Jab in a heartbeat, the combos it brings at high percents are nice though

Jab 2 tho.


Mm so fine, 8%, very low diagonal knockback

I want it so bad

 

[Hapajin]

Would that really be an improvement for Samus? I thought everybody loved the combos jab1 enabled in the forum
Various Samus Tech (Update! Jab 1 OP)

If Jab1 was a push then we probably wouldn't have these combos. Is it worth it? (Not a rhetorical question. Do u guys actually want that?)

The more we talk about how bad Samus is, the more I feel nobody has the same ideas for how Samus needs buffed/fixed. I know its objective to say that screwattack and Fair need tweeking to insure ALL hits make contact, but then there are things like how to fix f-tilt and Nair and we don't seem to be on the same page besides general properties. In the case of f-tilt, everyone wants it to be safe. But how would we like it to be safe? Should there just be one single, universal hitbox throughout the leg? Do some of us want the tipper-mechanic in our F-tilt? This goes double for super missiles. Some want a slower missile, some want a faster one.

Just wondering.

That's a good point. Despite the benefits of jab one at higher percentage, the risks and punishment at low percentage outweigh the benefits for me. In the other smash games, I didn't really care if jabs connected or not, but in smash 4, it seems to me like most characters have a decent-to really good jab, and in such a defensive game, quick damage is really useful. Also, Samus' jab 2 deals decent damage and knockback so it would be kind of a luxury for me to be a reliable follow up. Currently, I don't think her jab 1 is awful, just compared to everyone else's, it could be so much more

 

[FlAlex]

Uh...fair? Up B? (They connect fine!)

Also put away the jab 1 fingerfoams.

I have footage that says otherwise...

Nope. Won't do it.

 

[FlAlex]

Yes, I do want jab 1 to remain as is.

Why? Not hating just wondering.

 

[FlAlex]

So what about f-tilt?

And are we willing to sacrifice good projectiles for better melee moves or do we want a zoning character? (or do u guys just want projectiles worth using)? Cuz the way I look at it, Sakurai isn't going to buff our melee moves if we are supposed to be projectile characters, and won't buff our projectiles if we are great at CQC (that is the reason for the intentional flaw of jab1).

 

[SpandexBullets]

I have footage that says otherwise...

Nope. Won't do it.

Screw Attack connects as well as any other multi-hit Up B (ZSS, Charizard, Mario, etc). Given it's height achieved, it's pretty ok.
Fair is guh-lorrrious. It's a fantastic gimping move that comes out really fast and has amazing range. It might not always connect, but the same can be said for any other multi-hit move (except for Shiek's up air, but Shiek is the worst character in the game sooo...)

 

[Tonetta]

Why? Not hating just wondering.

Because jab 1 combo's into dtilt around the same time jab 1 - jab 2 links up and honestly it puts your opponent in a better spot. later on jab 1 combo's into the end of ftilt, and cs at some point that they can't do anything about, and this is all happens from a jab that comes out on frame 3. I don't really care that our jab doesn't link up pre 35% when we have multiple combo's that do 40% from 0% and would much rather have the combo's stated above with jab, than without and having the jabs link up pre 35%.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Because jab 1 combo's into dtilt around the same time jab 1 - jab 2 links up and honestly it puts your opponent in a better spot. later on jab 1 combo's into the end of ftilt, and cs at some point that they can't do anything about, and this is all happens from a jab that comes out on frame 3. I don't really care that our jab doesn't link up pre 35% when we have multiple combo's that do 40% from 0% and would much rather have the combo's stated above with jab, than without and having the jabs link up pre 35%.

But the timing is ridiculously strict!
Wouldn't you rather have both?

 

[Afro Smash]

Jab 1 > DTilt and F Tilt isn't true on all characters, Jab > CS is p good but it's still only a tech chase and doesnt start til high percents, and landing Dash Attacks on good players isn't very easy, and the issue isn't it not combo'ing pre 35%, its it not being safe on hit. I'd be fine if it became a read after you landed it, but your opponent can just spam Jab or Grab and punish you

 

[Xygonn]

Jab 1 > DTilt and F Tilt isn't true on all characters, Jab > CS is p good but it's still only a tech chase and doesnt start til high percents, and landing Dash Attacks on good players isn't very easy, and the issue isn't it not combo'ing pre 35%, its it not being safe on hit. I'd be fine if it became a read after you landed, but your opponent can just spam Jab or Grab and punish you

Jab cs is a true combo 10% of the time at about 100% thanks to the trip mechanic. I'll fish for that.

 

[Afro Smash]

Well even if it trips, unless you fire pre emptively anticipating a trip the opponent can still avoid it by gettin up at the right time

 

[Xygonn]

Well even if it trips, unless you fire pre emptively anticipating a trip the opponent can still avoid it by gettin up at the right time

that's exactly how I fish for it.

 

[Afro Smash]

Ok but I'd still take a reliable jab than a 10% chance for a kill combo at high percents

 

[SpandexBullets]

that's exactly how I fish for it.

Luigi can kill every character with d-throw > down B from as low as 87% as a true combo regardless of DI.
These setups are so difficult and give only the smallest rewards.

Smash 4 Samus might just be the saddest thing in my life right now.