1.10 Balance change speculation?

[Afro Smash]

You can follow opponents DI fairly easily yh, other Characters don't have to tho

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

You can follow opponents DI fairly easily yh, other Characters don't have to tho

It's that other characters don't have to that makes it ridiculous. Besides that, Samus's upair should have a hitbox in the shoulder area instead of waist and up. If we have to use it like a nair, it should have more nair functions.

 

[JAZZ_]

It's that other characters don't have to that makes it ridiculous. Besides that, Samus's upair should have a hitbox in the shoulder area instead of waist and up. If we have to use it like a nair, it should have more nair functions.

How about just fix Nair?

 

[Tonetta]

Part of the theme for Samus is that, just like her games, you have to think outside of the box to accomplish your goals.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Part of the theme for Samus is that, just like her games, you have to think outside of the box to accomplish your goals.

Just like Sonic.

No one likes playing Sonic.

 

[Teshie U]

Am I the only Samus that likes Uair not auto-linking? I love how you can sort of tickle people with it and hold them in place.

I feel like Samus just needs more reliable tilts and maybe a late KO throw and she is fine. Removing all knockback growth on upthrow would also work too.

I feel like Robin and Samus play similarly and the latest buffs for Robin make her far more dangerous at optimal range, but she has quick disjointed tilts/jab to help her fend people off at close range and a strong combo / KO game from dthrow now. The resource management gimmick doesn't really offset how much better Robin is at covering options within the same gameplan.


Her nair should just work like ganon's dsmash, she is basically doing the same thing and it would be the coolest aerial in the game at that point.

edit: back hit if downsmash should be safe on block, if falcon can have it with his OP foot flail, this harmless dsmash should be safe too.

 

[Afro Smash]

It doesn't require thinking outside the box though, it's just arbitrarily more difficult

And yeah I actually think Robin's spell limit thing is good for him since if he catches the book/Levin Sword he becomes really dangerous

 

[KenMeister]

Am I the only Samus that likes Uair not auto-linking? I love how you can sort of tickle people with it and hold them in place.

I feel like Samus just needs more reliable tilts and maybe a late KO throw and she is fine. Removing all knockback growth on upthrow would also work too.

I feel like Robin and Samus play similarly and the latest buffs for Robin make her far more dangerous at optimal range, but she has quick disjointed tilts/jab to help her fend people off at close range and a strong combo / KO game from dthrow now. The resource management gimmick doesn't really offset how much better Robin is at covering options within the same gameplan.


Her nair should just work like ganon's dsmash, she is basically doing the same thing and it would be the coolest aerial in the game at that point.

edit: back hit if downsmash should be safe on block, if falcon can have it with his OP foot flail, this harmless dsmash should be safe too.

Or at the very least, her dsmash and dtilt should reliably poke under shields better like they did in Melee.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Down smash should be reliable for killing people. like sure its a nice get off me but samus already has her whole game plan set around that. with many moves that acomplsh it better. her down smash should Kill at reasonable percents. Also yes i like Samus's U air not having suction. for the most part i rather not carry my opponent with me when when i short hop u air just to get potentialy punished by me cutting off the u air before the finisher.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Down smash should be reliable for killing people. like sure its a nice get off me but samus already has her whole game plan set around that. with many moves that acomplsh it better. her down smash should Kill at reasonable percents. Also yes i like Samus's U air not having suction. for the most part i rather not carry my opponent with me when when i short hop u air just to get potentialy punished by me cutting off the u air before the finisher.

Defo!

 

[KenMeister]

Samus' uair is probably one of two moves I'd probably keep the same (the other is Charge Shot and maybe zair), since it serves many purposes as is, which is something you can't really say about many other uairs in the game.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Soooo Samus is confirmed the character on the tier list...
Even it is a Jank list.

 

[Xeze]

Samus needs some better hitbox placements. And I still don't know why that down smash is so weak knockback-wise...

 

[KenMeister]

So if Samus were to have her moves work as intended, like removing unnecessary sourspots, fixing hitboxes, and making her moves much more difficult to SDI out of, where do you think she'd land on the tier list? It's crazy how the majority of her flaws simply stem from her moves simply not working well at all like they should.

 

[leiraD]

So if Samus were to have her moves work as intended, like removing unnecessary sourspots, fixing hitboxes, and making her moves much more difficult to SDI out of, where do you think she'd land on the tier list. It's crazy how the majority of her flaws simply stem from her moves simply not working well at all like they should.

I think she'd still be low. Aside from the obvious jank and without referring to specific moves, her biggest problems are that she doesn't have many options that easily close out stocks, she doesn't have the tools to really put on the pressure she would need to be a threat. Zair is great for putting on some pressure, but it doesn't do enough damage to really cause someone to be concerned by it, nor does it really set up for much aside from maybe a dash attack. Missiles would be great, but they come out too slow, they don't kill, and there's no missile cancelling, so they're easy to get around. d-tilt is fast and has good range, but will never kill...

So even if they fix the jank (which I would definitely appreciate), I still don't really see her being great unless they improve her tools.

 

[SpandexBullets]

So if Samus were to have her moves work as intended, like removing unnecessary sourspots, fixing hitboxes, and making her moves much more difficult to SDI out of, where do you think she'd land on the tier list. It's crazy how the majority of her flaws simply stem from her moves simply not working well at all like they should.

If F-smash had a sweetspot as clear and functioning as Mario's
And d-tilt/d-smash killed
And u-tilt was untechable
And f-tilt set up a tech-chase
And zair autocancelled with 4% throughout the whole thing
And up-smash connected on grounded opponents
And up air had great SDI frames (like Shiek's)
And fair/bair had less landing lag and ending lag
And dair always spiked
And dash attack hit the whole way through
And down throw was reliable
And missiles killed
And jab connected

Well I don't know I suppose she'd be at the top of the A tier and have one of the best matchup spreads in the whole game

Like ZSS.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

The nerf to d-air spike was reasonable, and consistent with the universal nerf to meteor smashes, due to meteor cancelling. I just with that the sourspot didn't sometimes knock opponents into an advantageous position, and that the sweetspot didn't lose out to so many attacks.

 

[KenMeister]

The nerf to d-air spike was reasonable, and consistent with the universal nerf to meteor smashes, due to meteor cancelling. I just with that the sourspot didn't sometimes knock opponents into an advantageous position, and that the sweetspot didn't lose out to so many attacks.

Honestly the real issue with dair, much like fair, is that it has a lot more landing lag than it did previous games, which makes her air-ground transitioning an issue when it wasn't in Brawl.

 

[Xygonn]

I think she'd still be low. Aside from the obvious jank and without referring to specific moves, her biggest problems are that she doesn't have many options that easily close out stocks, she doesn't have the tools to really put on the pressure she would need to be a threat. Zair is great for putting on some pressure, but it doesn't do enough damage to really cause someone to be concerned by it, nor does it really set up for much aside from maybe a dash attack. Missiles would be great, but they come out too slow, they don't kill, and there's no missile cancelling, so they're easy to get around. d-tilt is fast and has good range, but will never kill...

So even if they fix the jank (which I would definitely appreciate), I still don't really see her being great unless they improve her tools.

Zair sets up tech chases for CS at higher percents on a lot of the cast.

 

[leiraD]

Zair sets up tech chases for CS at higher percents on a lot of the cast.

True

 

[Tonetta]

I fail to see how samus has a lack-of kill moves with bair, dair, upb, cs, and fsmash (sometimes usmash lol) all killing at reasonable percents.

 

[Xygonn]

I fail to see how samus has a lack-of kill moves with bair, dair, upb, cs, and fsmash (sometimes usmash lol) all killing at reasonable percents.

The problem (and impression) stems from several factors.

1) Super missile, dtilt, and dsmash used to be kill moves.
2) Usmash is still not totally reliable.

I think we have plenty of good tools for closing out stocks, especially because soft hits of uair combo into upb, and if you are a badass, jab to fsmash or bair. Utilt also isn't half bad as a kill move.

We can also get nair and bomb gimps. Fair is also a pretty good offstage tool.

 

[Tonetta]

Ah yes, I forgot about utilt. I was just naming raw moves anyways, we have a TON of kill setups. If people are having problems taking stocks as samus it's a player flaw, not a character flaw.

 

[Afro Smash]

She has nothing guaranteed though, apart from Uair > jab > ?? On floatier characters, CS requires 2 1/2 seconds to charge and some characters have reflectors, her smashes and Bair aren't safe on shield and require precision, up b oos is weak without rage and hugely punishable on whiff

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit as I don't don't find it too difficult to kill with Samus generally , but really apart from CS none of her Kill moves are safe on shield, where as other better characters are free to spam Bairs/Up Smashes/Grabs for easy safe kills

What I mean is basically all her Kill moves are commitments that will get herself killed if shielded/avoided, including CS in certain MUs, Bair and falling Up Air are fairly safe but still require precision

 

[SpandexBullets]

I fail to see how samus has a lack-of kill moves with bair, dair, upb, cs, and fsmash (sometimes usmash lol) all killing at reasonable percents.

• F-smash is also not very reliable (that sweetspot is like 1 frame and it's TINY compared to the sourspot!)

No one on the cast lacks KO options, but because shield is so good, kill setups is what rolls most.
And we have a few of those, but they're very situational, often involving terrible DI or an up air follow-up into CS or Bair.

And, as Samus players, we don't roll.

 

[Tonetta]

Fsmash is actually really reliable, try pivot smashing for once. for ko options, we have zair into cs, jab 1 into cs, tilt sour spot into cs, basically anything tech chase into cs, just to name a few.

E: Yes the character is more difficult than other characters, but that's part of her theme. She is, in no manner, low tier at high level play.

 

[Xygonn]

She has nothing guaranteed though, apart from Uair > jab > ?? On floatier characters, CS requires 2 1/2 seconds to charge and some characters have reflectors, her smashes and Bair aren't safe on shield and require precision, up b oos is weak without rage and hugely punishable on whiff

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit as I don't don't find it too difficult to kill with Samus generally , but really apart from CS none of her Kill moves are safe on shield, where as other better characters are free to spam Bairs/Up Smashes/Grabs for easy safe kills

What I mean is basically all her Kill moves are commitments that will get herself killed if shielded/avoided, including CS in certain MUs, Bair and falling Up Air are fairly safe but still require precision

Perfectly spaced bair is safe on back of shield against most of the cast at -13. Maybe a few can jump -> bair or drop shield turnaround and do something to us but if we are far away and they get that bit of shield push. Don't know. It's not super unsafe.

 

[Tonetta]

I'll second that properly spaced bair is safe on shield, on or off a platform.

 

[Afro Smash]

I said it was fairly safe along with falling up Air, also F Smash isn't reliable since its unsafe on shield and requires a sweetspot, and pivoting is in no way a guarantee to land it. Sure it isn't impossible to land, but it's more difficult to land than many others. Tech chases also arent guaranteed and are only available for a small percentage vs most of the cast

I agree played to perfection she's high tier, she's just far harder to play to perfection than most others, and lacking reliability is not a good trait for doing consistently well in tournaments

 

[Afro Smash]

I said it was fairly safe along with falling up Air, also F Smash isn't reliable since its unsafe on shield and requires a sweetspot, and pivoting is in no way a guarantee to land it. Sure it isn't impossible to land, but it's more difficult to land than many others (to kill). Tech chases also arent guaranteed and are only available for a small percentage vs most of the cast

I agree played to perfection she's high tier, she's just far harder to play to perfection than most others, and lacking reliability is not a good trait for doing consistently well in tournaments

 

[Tonetta]

I agree with you that she needs more reliability in a couple key areas. Mainly upsmash, not connecting properly, people not falling out of upb, and a fsmash that matches the graphic is what I would like. Also sorry my above post about pivot smashing wasn't directed towards you, but yes pivot smashing will more or less guarantee fsmash sweet spotting when you use fsmash as a punish and not as a raw move, which I'm guessing is by design due to how strong her zoning game is.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think this thread has morphed from "balance patch discussion" into the more general stream-of- consciousness "Samus" thread we have stickied.
We should consider locking / migrating back. My 2 cents.

As for kill power, are you guys too young to remember Brawl? Brawl was inane and insane. I still played Samus to death, but man, the lack of KO power was astonishing.
I really have NO complaints about Samus' kill power in smash 4. I routinely kill in the 90-100 range, often in the 70-90 and 100-120 range, and rarely in the 120+ or sub 70 range.
If you read an airdodge Samus can kill ridiculously early at the edge of the range of her combos. Kirby in this example dies at 24%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=176
I literally, not figuratively, hit him three times. Up-tilt -> d-tilt for 24%, then up-tilt->up-air -> up-B = death. From his perspective, I got through his defence three times, he missed one tech, I read one dodge, and he DIED. Game.
Mewtwo can die in 2 hits. You land a standard dash -> up-airx2 -> up-B that we're all familiar with and then d-air->up-air->CS and he's dead. 2 hits, one missed tech, you're out.
That's quite brutal. At some level I'm sure Sakurai thinks this way and it enters into the balance equation.
Ultimately we're playing a very high skill cap character, if it wasn't already painfully obvious. If you're having trouble killing as Samus, I would say it's primarily a stage control issue. I see a lot of random FG Samus jumping on every opportunity to land a CS/f-smash, with NO stage control. Yeah of course you're going to kill late, the edge is way on the other side.

 

[leiraD]

I fail to see how samus has a lack-of kill moves with bair, dair, upb, cs, and fsmash (sometimes usmash lol) all killing at reasonable percents.

It's not so much the amount of kill moves, but more of how with what amount of ease or difficulty you can get those moves in. I would trade all of Sammy's current kill moves for a back-throw like ness's or mario's. On the other hand, compare our handful of difficult kill options with those of a character like luigi who kills with uair, dair, nair, bair, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, upb, bthrow, and even fthrow...... We don't seem to compare very well.

 

[Hark17ball]

It's not so much the amount of kill moves, but more of how with what amount of ease or difficulty you can get those moves in. I would trade all of Sammy's current kill moves for a back-throw like ness's or mario's. On the other hand, compare our handful of difficult kill options with those of a character like luigi who kills with uair, dair, nair, bair, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, upb, bthrow, and even fthrow...... We don't seem to compare very well.

His bloodlust knows no bounds.....

 

[Xygonn]

It's not so much the amount of kill moves, but more of how with what amount of ease or difficulty you can get those moves in. I would trade all of Sammy's current kill moves for a back-throw like ness's or mario's. On the other hand, compare our handful of difficult kill options with those of a character like luigi who kills with uair, dair, nair, bair, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, upb, bthrow, and even fthrow...... We don't seem to compare very well.

It's not particularly fair to compare us to the character that has literally the best kit of normal moves in the game. His weakness is that he is slow and has a very hard time punishing hits on his shield.

 

[SpandexBullets]

It's not particularly fair to compare us to the character that has literally the best kit of normal moves in the game. His weakness is that he is slow and has a very hard time punishing hits on his shield.

Those are small cracks in his game compared to the glaring flaws that plague the rest of the cast.

 

[leiraD]

It's not particularly fair to compare us to the character that has literally the best kit of normal moves in the game. His weakness is that he is slow and has a very hard time punishing hits on his shield.

Why isn't it fair? I might agree if we were comparing different smash games, but we've contained the discussion to compare two characters from the same smash game... We have to play against characters of that caliber or greater, so why wouldn't we compare to a character we have to play against?

Many characters in this games can kill with all aerials, all smashes, some tilts, and some specials. For Samus, we don't get nearly that treatment. For what reason? Because charge shot works so well? Its easily power shielded, has a long start-up, and half the cast can either reflect, absorb, or clank with it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pshh can Luigi gets rekt by mega bomb relentless missle samus. acutally a good amount of the cast does. i Know alot of people are not taking customs into the equasion right now but seriously mega bomb is really REALLY stupid. almost any character that was rush down in any form had too respect mega bomb. and relentless missles just makes frame traps too easy.
*edit*
also just to mention getting hit by megabomb at high percents can convert into kils via, well any of her air kill options

 

[Xygonn]

Why isn't it fair? I might agree if we were comparing different smash games, but we've contained the discussion to compare two characters from the same smash game... We have to play against characters of that caliber or greater, so why wouldn't we compare to a character we have to play against?

Many characters in this games can kill with all aerials, all smashes, some tilts, and some specials. For Samus, we don't get nearly that treatment. For what reason? Because charge shot works so well? Its easily power shielded, has a long start-up, and half the cast can either reflect, absorb, or clank with it.

Basically yes. We have CS, good CS setups in nair, zair, missile and super missile (SM used to be better). We can break shields and have a basically guaranteed kill on shield break (though arguably marth does this better). We have a harder to gimp recovery. We actually have way more air mobility especially with bombs. We have kill setups from uair. I'm not gonna complain way too much that not all of our moves kill. Yes, I want dsmash to kill earlier. Yes, I'd like nair to have an even flatter angle or other buff. Yes, the hitboxes don't match the animations, but overall I don't feel like I have any truly irredeemable problems like bowser landing, zelda aerial lag, being too easy to juggle or gimp, etc. Samus has tools you can use to get around most of her weaknesses.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Pshh can Luigi gets rekt by mega bomb relentless missle samus. acutally a good amount of the cast does. i Know alot of people are not taking customs into the equasion right now but seriously mega bomb is really REALLY stupid. almost any character that was rush down in any form had too respect mega bomb. and relentless missles just makes frame traps too easy.
*edit*
also just to mention getting hit by megabomb at high percents can convert into kils via, well any of her air kill options

Be cool if missiles killed

Then we wouldn't need relentless to make people repsect missiles