Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[Seagull Joe]

I know I'm gonna be given a warning for this, but most posters here are idiots. Whoever said should be given a combo throw needs to be given a hefty wedgie AND a wet willie.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I know I'm gonna be given a warning for this, but most posters here are idiots. Whoever said should be given a combo throw needs to be given a hefty wedgie AND a wet willie.

Its great when people enter a discussion just to declare that almost everyone is stupid but them.

Nice dude.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Its great when people enter a discussion just to declare that almost everyone is stupid but them.

Nice dude.

Comes with having played smash competitively a long time. Veteran life.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Comes with having played smash competitively a long time. Veteran life.

Just because you are almost certainly better at smash then most of the people in here, myself included, doesn't mean you should go swinging your **** around like that, its cocky and disrespectful. Rather then call a bunch of people idiots, try to help inform them more. Or don't say anything at all, its better then being passive aggressive. It would make smashboards a little bit better for everyone if more people behaved in such a way.

 

[Vipermoon]

It helps it true combo into uair, which was probably the intended compensation buff out of this changelist.

I think SDIing away puts you outside of uair range anyway though.

What I mean is that Uspecial 2 has set knockback. How does adjusting kbg (or having kbg in general) do to this move?

EDIT: I check KH and WT2 doesn't have set knockback. It has 30 base and 30 growth. Never mind.

 

[Grandpoobah]

I have two questions. One, is bayonetta the only character that got changed, and two, is 1.1.6 the last update of Smash 4?
As a Dedede main, I am scared to see if Dedede is not improved as well as every other character.

 

[Crimson23]

I have two questions. One, is bayonetta the only character that got changed, and two, is 1.1.6 the last update of Smash 4?
As a Dedede main, I am scared to see if Dedede is not improved as well as every other character.

So far, changes for other characters have not been found. Nintendo might surprise us, but we don't know.
And we also don't know if this patch will be the last. I personally think it's best to not expect anything, and be happy if it comes.
And yeah, I hope Dedede gets buffed too. Same with Jiggs.

 

[JL-Noir]

Is it true that only Bayo got changed?

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I never said we wouldn't adapt, but the nerf mentality and the bias against a character because most of the trolls were parroting what ZeRo said, which by the way since Bayonetta came out he never participated in a tournament pretending his injured says a lot about a minority thats get loud on social media asking for nerfs when they do not have the skill to adapt themselves.

I played Ike since day one in smash 4. The character was overwhelmed by Sheik, Zero Suit, and other speedy characters with great frametrap game. I never complaint and asked for nerfs online, I cared for balance patches that gives more buffs on Ike to counter some instances like the Ragnel hit box to get bigger and his throws to combo. I was glad the balance team fix that in a sensible manner.

Sheik got nerfs on her option kills, her speed, her neutral game and her frame data never got severely nerfed destroying her way of playing. She still is a combo fair freak with top tier neutral game, this never changed and I wouldn't want it to changed because it would throw her play style out the window. They could balance her other wise adding more landing lag frames on the moves, so not all aerials auto cancel to an insane speedy recovery that goes unpunished.

In Bayonetta's case they destroyed the only good thing her character provided her combos. I play with the best players in Greek Smash scene and they never got problem dealing with my Bayonetta, I even provided them with info of how they could get better and avoid most of her stuff so I could become even better. Greninja is my friends main and in our match ups he always won because of specific gimmicks Greninja had to avoid Bayonetta's combos like fspecial, incredible speed and great set ups and frame traps he does. Now with this nerfs on Bayonetta when I had 50/50 chance to land a combo and punish a mistake I would be limiting myself to use one or two hits. Also Bayonetta is a very light character she dies with a charged smash at 89%, has tremendous bad frame data, awful ending lag if she misses a combo and her Smashes are slow with low priority as a disjoint attack.

If you do not know the meta and you lose to a Bayonetta and asking for nerfs you are clearly a bad player. Nerf mentality is idiotic and never push the meta of smash in right competitive path. The game has 58 characters and people are asking for nerfs after 3 months of the release of Bayonetta... 3 MONTHS because of public outcry from a minority.

She wasn't balanced so you must explore other methods of play for Bayonetta, she was gutted. Lost her gimmick, her combos, she cannot play a neutral game, her frame data are slow with big ending lad, most of her moves are punishable by throws, after the nerf she is more unsafe with her faster move dtilt got another 2 frames of ending lag which was at 7 frames, limiting her combos even more, dabk got destroyed as an approach tool good luck trying to approach heavy projectile characters and witch twist is SDIed by slowpokes now.

Also the patch shows the bias against the character which is the only character that got nerfed plus the 3 month period was very early to pass judgment for this kind of a move by the balance team.

The crybabes have won, the trolls are now our new meta overlords. If you enjoy this good for you, I choose to move on from this game competitive scene. I will find some other game to play.

Or you could ya know, find more moves that are safe, find more options, actually research more into the character. Look at Luigi mains, they still found stuff after the nerfs. If you're gonna leave this community cause of nerfs, than I don't see how you're gonna survive any other modern competitive game with/without balance patches. You're the one that's sounding like a cry baby here. "WAAAH, MY CHARACTER GOT NERFED, BOO HOO, TIME TO LEAVE THIS GAME!" When you can simply just found out what still works. Just put in the work.

 

[JAZZ_]

Part of me feels if everybody mained a bottom tier before moving to the cream of the roster they'd have a better perspective on adapting. When you have to play 150% better than your opponent just to compete you rely on adaptation and creativity. Me personally I'm interested and excited to see what new meta rises from the ashes of this nerf for bayo, because there WILL be new discoveries. 2-3 patches ago, for example, Samus mains were greeted with another woeful, Samus-no changes. But for the next few weeks after that, new meta started pouring through the woodwork. Crazy stuff like instant-tether ledge trump, the SH frame perfect double Upair tech and others reinvigorated the Samus community. Samus didn't change, she was still J Tier at the time, and yet creative and innovative tech was still pouring through because we didn't have it easy. I honestly think characters that have an easy time burning stocks are boring to watch and play as, so if Bayo truly has to remap her playstyle, the potential she has excites me with the possibility to see new stuff us as a community have never witnessed before. The fact most can't see this is baffling to me, unless of course you only play for easy wins than I guess you'll have to change mains if you're that upset. If you play for the easiest of strategies, instead of burning your time complaining, do the Easy thing and switch to another character that can still win easily.

OK I think I've said my peace.

 

[TekKnite]

Can someone tell me why the 3DS patch is larger than the wii u patch please respond

 

[blackghost]

I know I'm gonna be given a warning for this, but most posters here are idiots. Whoever said should be given a combo throw needs to be given a hefty wedgie AND a wet willie.

I play her and i agree with you on that her throws were made bad for a reason. heck she conically doest even grab in her games most of the time.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Can someone tell me why the 3DS patch is larger than the wii u patch please respond

This is just speculation, but I think it could be for updating various visual effects specifically on the 3ds version.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I find it interesting that Bayonetta was the only character nerfed, although I'd assume that all of the complaints currently about Bayo are sort of out-voicing everything else. I'm sad if this really is the only thing that we get, but at the same time I'm ultra happy/sad, partially because now my experience with Bayo is a bit less useful than before but now there isn't something as heavily dominating as pre-patch Bayonetta.

Part of me feels if everybody mained a bottom tier before moving to the cream of the roster they'd have a better perspective on adapting. When you have to play 150% better than your opponent just to compete you rely on adaptation and creativity. Me personally I'm interested and excited to see what new meta rises from the ashes of this nerf for bayo, because there WILL be new discoveries. 2-3 patches ago, for example, Samus mains were greeted with another woeful, Samus-no changes. But for the next few weeks after that, new meta started pouring through the woodwork. Crazy stuff like instant-tether ledge trump, the SH frame perfect double Upair tech and others reinvigorated the Samus community. Samus didn't change, she was still J Tier at the time, and yet creative and innovative tech was still pouring through because we didn't have it easy. I honestly think characters that have an easy time burning stocks are boring to watch and play as, so if Bayo truly has to remap her playstyle, the potential she has excites me with the possibility to see new stuff us as a community have never witnessed before. The fact most can't see this is baffling to me, unless of course you only play for easy wins than I guess you'll have to change mains if you're that upset. If you play for the easiest of strategies, instead of burning your time complaining, do the Easy thing and switch to another character that can still win easily.

OK I think I've said my peace.

Perfect, we need more people like you around here.

 

[SavEmeBiGFooT]

Are the only changes Bayo changes?

Sorry about this post....

 

[blackghost]

Or you could ya know, find more moves that are safe, find more options, actually research more into the character. Look at Luigi mains, they still found stuff after the nerfs. If you're gonna leave this community cause of nerfs, than I don't see how you're gonna survive any other modern competitive game with/without balance patches. You're the one that's sounding like a cry baby here. "WAAAH, MY CHARACTER GOT NERFED, BOO HOO, TIME TO LEAVE THIS GAME!" When you can simply just found out what still works. Just put in the work.

luigi didnt lose the ability to down throw he had the ability to follow up toned down. he also kept other tools he had he kept all his normals (better than bayo), kept a killing special (bayo never had one), kept his essence as a character.
no other nerfed character was hit like this. she was nerfed like she won every tournament when thats not even remotely true.
I'm not saying new stuff will or won't be found but bayo after this patch won't even have combos, you know what she was designed for. every time a top tier has been nerfed their design has remained intact.
shiek: fast safe great normals just toned down zoning and need nore relience on BF for kills
zss: ladder still possible and had he flip kick touched so air resest work. but her grab itself was buffed right?
MK: ladder still works just not as early or as easily.
compare those to what bayo received. bayo players (me included) are upset not because she was nerfed but because every part o what made her character is gone and with hotbox and sdi changes all against her landing a hit isn't rewarded at all either.
WHats going to come from this the community will hate. bayo players will play run away and hit and run. why shouldn't they? they have no good normal that starts anything and wt is easily escaped now. its going to be a lot of rar bair and nair. she's still a great edge gaurd character but dont act like shes shiek or villager offstage she isnt.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*looks at how many people keep asking if only Bayonetta was changed*

Its like people lack basic reading comprehension or something. Can't even read literally 2-3 posts above their own to see somebody asking the exact same question, let along just read the first page and get their answer. Literally half a page down there is this nice twitter quote showing what the answer is.

Remember how a quite a number of patches ago there was people (including me) asking for the topic to be filtered so newbies can't post in it because they never add anything helpful? Still a great suggestion in this case.

 

[Yojiexo]

Holy Crap those bayo nerfs tho

I was not expecting so many nerfs too Bayo, I mean with Fox I could beat her easly in FG or my friends that play Bayo, yes she was a bit strong but not enough to nerf her that much...


But I wanted a Falco buff at least :I
Hoping for a 1.1.7

 

[CaP_Omega]

His assertion was Bayonetta completely dominated the metagame and controlled the flow of the battle to the point where beating her was a matter of luck.

She came out in the beginning of Feburary. It is now May 19th. When in that three and a half month period did she dominate the meta?

She also typically controlled the flow of battle because the opponent would give it to her on a silver platter. How she could control the match better than Sheik with worst tools at her disposal is beyond me.

Very few people bothered to learn how heelslide actually worked.

The downward dive kick was by far her most important move and the one most in need of developer intervention. Making it seemingly useless, however...

I could agree with you, but then I would be going against hundreds of consecutive tournament results in North America and Japan, and the facts that her moves have high priority.
EDIT: I grossly misinterpreted this chart, it is not a markup of total tournament results in March but a representation of weighted results. It is nonetheless an average representation of how well characters did in March. Take it with a grain of salt, interpret it as you wish.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I apologize for posting my tier list, especially since it lacked any explanation or follow up. My goal was to see if my perception of the current meta was at all accurate, but it's honestly way too early to start moving heads around, and my knowledge of the meta does not qualify me to place characters around like that.

 

[Charoite]

Part of me feels if everybody mained a bottom tier before moving to the cream of the roster they'd have a better perspective on adapting. When you have to play 150% better than your opponent just to compete you rely on adaptation and creativity. Me personally I'm interested and excited to see what new meta rises from the ashes of this nerf for bayo, because there WILL be new discoveries. 2-3 patches ago, for example, Samus mains were greeted with another woeful, Samus-no changes. But for the next few weeks after that, new meta started pouring through the woodwork. Crazy stuff like instant-tether ledge trump, the SH frame perfect double Upair tech and others reinvigorated the Samus community. Samus didn't change, she was still J Tier at the time, and yet creative and innovative tech was still pouring through because we didn't have it easy. I honestly think characters that have an easy time burning stocks are boring to watch and play as, so if Bayo truly has to remap her playstyle, the potential she has excites me with the possibility to see new stuff us as a community have never witnessed before. The fact most can't see this is baffling to me, unless of course you only play for easy wins than I guess you'll have to change mains if you're that upset. If you play for the easiest of strategies, instead of burning your time complaining, do the Easy thing and switch to another character that can still win easily.

OK I think I've said my peace.

What is your option if you liked bayonetta design, but now she is totally different design, what is he liked that bayo was combo character but now she is a bait and punish character, that bayo will never return, imagine if Samus design was completely changed in one patch, she could became better or worse, but now you dont like how she plays, because say she is now plays like or , would you still like to play as her?? If the nerf are true then she is not the same character but "worse", she is not longer the same character you liked, i dont know but i would be angry if my favorite character design changed to something that i dont like, is not because she is no longer top tier, but because she is not longer Bayo, someone of you fail to see that.

 

[blackghost]

I could agree with you, but then I would be going against hundreds of consecutive tournament results in North America and Japan, and the facts that her moves have high priority.

But once again at the highest level, which as a competitive community we should be basing things off, what was she winning? winning like shiek or diddy pre and post patch? or cloud 75 wins to her 45 wins in same time-span. she has no majors outside of japan. watching videos from esam the accusation could be made the community is just lazy on counterplay and with most of this playerbase not putting in work to learn to fight high tiers because in all fighting game you need to learn how to fight high tiers.

 

[Mr. Johan]

WE base things off the top level. Nintendo is under no such prerogative.

If Bayonetta is crippling the mid-level players, which comprises the bulk of the Smash player base, then Nintendo is going to make changes that better serve the greatest common factor. No two ways around it.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I could agree with you, but then I would be going against hundreds of consecutive tournament results in North America and Japan, and the facts that her moves have high priority.

And your evidence of "hundreds of consecutive wins"....is a weighted pie chart of Top 16 placement from 47 different tournaments?

It's also worthless if you added it for shock value, considering how I actually know where that info came from.

Here's the master data the chart was made from, and the reddit post you took it from:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z134y9JCbXApl2X14tMNrm-5-NqY6mzgCo1bHDM3V3s/edit
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4jr41h/march_15thmay_15th_comprehensive_tourney/

If you look at the data itself, of what was looked at since March, she's won twice in the past month (31 days).

She never dominated, and places where she was originally doing best in has had a steep decrease in results. Amazingly enough, people naturally learned how to deal with the new character once they put their mind to it and, I can only assume, stopped drinking the kool aid. Fancy that.

While we're sort of on the subject...what exactly was it in my post you were actually responding to? Or was this just supposed to be you changing the subject for some reason?

 

[Cook]

I could agree with you, but then I would be going against hundreds of consecutive tournament results in North America and Japan, and the facts that her moves have high priority.

Would you mind explaining the methodology for this chart? It's interesting.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Would you mind explaining the methodology for this chart? It's interesting.

The methodology is here, where he took it from:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4jr41h/march_15thmay_15th_comprehensive_tourney/

It does not show what he's implying it shows in the slightest and is a deliberate misinterpretation of another person's data.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I can't wait for the patch to actually drop. The dedicated Bayo mains will get to the lab and continue work on the game's meta. They'll bring out her new optimal play style that the nay-sayers here can't even imagine.

I'm going to guess that she'll still be relevant and plenty scary. We just need to look harder. And look harder they will. I look forward to what they show us.

 

[Vipermoon]

Please, shrooby , put the explanation to why the 3DS has a bigger file size in the first post! I'm about to stop reading this thread because of how freaking repetitive it is.

For bonus points you can make something about where the data came from, the possibilities that more changes will be added to the server, and whatever else these people keep asking.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Can someone tell me why the 3DS patch is larger than the wii u patch please respond

From what's been explained to me, the 3DS isn't capable of partial patches; it's the entire patch, since the beginning or something all together.

Apparently all 3DS patches have been an ever increasing size and this new one is not abnormal in this regard.

 

[Darklink401]

Please, shrooby , put the explanation to why the 3DS has a bigger file size in the first post! I'm about to stop reading this thread because of how freaking repetitive it is.

For bonus points you can make something about where the data came from, the possibilities that more changes will be added to the server, and whatever else these people keep asking.

This man deserves a medal


Eyy, here's hopin for more patchy stuff. It's weird if they announce a patch for once (without it coming along with a character, or being to fix a bug) and yet its one of the smallest patches :O

 

[rm88]

Honestly, this thread keeps making me believe people who only play top tiers simply don't know a lot about balance in the game. Everyone should at least second a low tier character (as in, actually using it at tourneys) and these discussions would be completely different.

 

[IsmaR]

We will hand out large infractions and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch note exploration & future patch discussion.

Some examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Posting false changes or future patch news, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behaviour and complaining over the patch changes.

If the title wasn't obvious enough, this is the last reminder to actually read the above before posting the same exact thing every page.

Any posts asking "Are there changes to only Bayonetta/no one else/why are patch sizes different?" will be treated as spam from here on.

Everything that has been confirmed is listed in the first post. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

We can probably expect the patch late today/early tommorow for us EST people cause iirc maintence is their and the patch was on their site and normally they don't keep it their for another week before releasing it.

 

[CaP_Omega]

The methodology is here, where he took it from:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4jr41h/march_15thmay_15th_comprehensive_tourney/

It does not show what he's implying it shows in the slightest and is a deliberate misinterpretation of another person's data.

*facepalm*
I apologize, I didn't mean to shock anyone. But I did see someone's compiled Japan results somewhere on the Bayonetta discussion forums which indicate that she has won a large amount of tournaments in that region since her release, and I have watched many Finals matches from VGBootcamp, MVG, Tourney Locator, Geeky Goon Squad and Unrivaled Tournaments in which Bayonetta has dominated. Very few times have I seen someone come out on top against a good Bayonetta, and none of those times have I not seen them struggle harshly. I had no right to say that she has won "hundreds" of tournaments, but I have seen her win a majority of the tournaments that I have watched and there is no doubt in my mind that she has any less favorable results outside of my spectacle experience.

 

[Dark_Ky]

Bayonetta will be fine. Bayo mains will find new ways to combo and adapt to her changes, even if she goes down 2~4 tiers.
hell Bayo mains like myself are still super happy that she is even in the freaking game!

but these are still undeniably very harsh nerfs to her neutral/combo etc. game..

imo the most regrettable thing about this whole Bayo ban/hate/nerf mentality is the toxic (yes ^^) behavior of the smash
community. this was on a whole other level and I ve never seen anything like this before..

at least we learned something meaningful from this?... right?... right? :/

 

[Yojiexo]

Bayonetta will be fine. Bayo mains will find new ways to combo and adapt to her changes, even if she goes down 2~4 tiers.
hell Bayo mains like myself are still super happy that she is even in the freaking game!

but these are still undeniably very harsh nerfs to her neutral/combo etc. game..

imo the most regrettable thing about this whole Bayo ban/hate/nerf mentality is the toxic (yes ^^) behavior of the smash
community. this was on a whole other level and I ve never seen anything like this before..

at least we learned something meaningful from this?... right?... right? :/

I agree with you
Since the toxic behavior of the community against Bayonetta and not doing something like Learn good to play against her (reasons why in small tourney Bayonetta is getting bodied)
But...most of the comunnity only complains against her, and it is not the first time
Diddy....Sheik...Zss...Corrin... etc...
Always complaning at somethig cuz they don't know how to beat it or something
I just hope that Smash community stops crying about bayo

 

[rm88]

I mean, if the outcry against her is what made the nerf happen, then I'm glad it happened, to be honest. This was a much needed change, and I actually feared it'd never happen.

 

[shrooby]

shrooby
Her d-tilt FAF would be 26 -> 27 due to her FSM, please fix OP.

Please, shrooby , put the explanation to why the 3DS has a bigger file size in the first post! I'm about to stop reading this thread because of how freaking repetitive it is.

For bonus points you can make something about where the data came from, the possibilities that more changes will be added to the server, and whatever else these people keep asking.

Sorry, I haven't been home. And I'm still not home. #_#
But paging @Liberation

 

[JAZZ_]

What is your option if you liked bayonetta design, but now she is totally different design, what is he liked that bayo was combo character but now she is a bait and punish character, that bayo will never return, imagine if Samus design was completely changed in one patch, she could became better or worse, but now you dont like how she plays, because say she is now plays like or , would you still like to play as her?? If the nerf are true then she is not the same character but "worse", she is not longer the same character you liked, i dont know but i would be angry if my favorite character design changed to something that i dont like, is not because she is no longer top tier, but because she is not longer Bayo, someone of you fail to see that.

I'll try to rebuttal that whilst ignoring the glaring grammatical errors.

I get that it seems that Bayo's design was just destroyed but you're acting like this has never happened to a character before. It happened to Samus, before the game was even released she was nerfed to where the intent of her design did not work well, or at all. I'll reference this info with an example but I don't want to go off track with a Samus rant.

Samus design fault evidence video :

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/nCYCj3et36U
the video does more than request changes, it shows the intention of her design and how tweaking before launch because of perception lead to that design not working out as intended.

Back to Bayo though, why does everyone say she's completely lost everything? We don't even have the patch yet, things on paper don't always translate into the reality of the gameplay. If we all just wait for a week or so before trumpeting the horns of doom there maybe things that you're not able to see yet. No one can look at a sheet of data and determine every possible thing you can do with a character in a game without doing it first. What I was bringing out in my post was there is still time to dig deep. If you love your character, you'll find things that work.
Again to reference Samus ( I know enough about her to make an accurate statement) Samus can't safely roll away, unlike most every character in the game. 1 roll can spell doom during a critical moment in battle. How often do you roll to save you skin? Its a core element of the game, yet Samus' takes a while to complete and is vulnerable for half of it. A core design of every character and its flawed for one. What do us Samus mains do? We remapped our brain to SH AD (short hop air dodge) instead. Turned out to be a better option in the long run because we can sweetspot Bair and Nair out of SHAD. How many of you Shield grab? Another core element of the game that Samus can't do effectively, We instead Up B out of shield.
This infectious mentality that Bayo is Neutered beyond repair is preposterous and ill timed. But it's not uncommon, everybody whose main has received the nerf hammer has felt that way, and made it very clear how they've felt. Especially us Samus mains, so I understand the frustration and aggravation. But it's just too soon to declare a character dead yet. When this patch finally is dropped, and the dedicated Bayo mains can't find any new tech or strategies that work well after a few weeks or so, then we can consider this was too much.
Can we at least wait?

 

[TurboLink]

I mean, if the outcry against her is what made the nerf happen, then I'm glad it happened, to be honest. This was a much needed change, and I actually feared it'd never happen.

Why did you fear that it would never happen with all of the outcry?