Bahamut777
Smash Ace
Discuss...
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[#07] Marth MU Discussion Thread 2010
- Thread starter Bahamut777
- Start date
Discuss...
thexsunrosered
Smash Lord
pic win yessssss
Exalted
Smash Lord
He/She/It looks quite unchanged.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
Well, let's see.
First of all, Marth is very good against Ganon, as I'm sure we all know.
Let's start with something simple xD.
Marth's fair owns Ganon, really hard.
First of all, Marth is very good against Ganon, as I'm sure we all know.
Let's start with something simple xD.
Marth's fair owns Ganon, really hard.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
that pic is not my girlfriend.......
on a serious note I don't think this MU has changed a lot
on a serious note I don't think this MU has changed a lot
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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Don't try to Warlock Punch, he can counter it.
Literally.
Literally.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
Nice one ^_^
Oh yes, Marth with moonwalking + tilts works really well against Ganondorf, too. Very easy to outmaneuver and outrange Ganon's moves and stuffs.
Oh yes, Marth with moonwalking + tilts works really well against Ganondorf, too. Very easy to outmaneuver and outrange Ganon's moves and stuffs.
clowsui
Smash Legend
marth playing a basic zoning and trap style v ganondorf *****, seriously
please give me a feasible counter to a reactionary style w/ marth that only presses the advantage with momentum
please give me a feasible counter to a reactionary style w/ marth that only presses the advantage with momentum
GanonkingAbyss
Smash Apprentice
marth can easily land a tipper if u mistime air dodge(when landing, like after being juggled) and have landing land, it can lead to really early kos from either the fsmash, or he could gimp u with fair, edgeguard. he can also probably use a uair or something to force ur airdodge early and get a free fsmash, i think
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
If Marth ****s up, Ganon can punish him big time, but a big good luck on getting in.
The best advice I can give you is legendary advice "Wait for him to swing his sword then hit him", but against good Marths that strat probably won't work lol
The best advice I can give you is legendary advice "Wait for him to swing his sword then hit him", but against good Marths that strat probably won't work lol
Ye, our iDA works decently for that.
Right after his first Fair.
If we successfuly land it, we are now under Marth.
Right where we want to be.
A2ZOMG
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I personally think this matchup is funny. When I'm winning of course. =P
Breezy
Smash Ace
I spam wizkick and iDA in this MU.
Teh Future
Smash Master
55-45 ganon's favor
Terodactyl Yelnats
Smash Ace
Yes Pierce's magnificent and flawless approach was beaten by Ganon, ganon da bess obv.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
This MU is EXACTLY like Jiggz.
If Marth zone you with FAir, you lose. If he uses any other move, you have a chance to win.
If Marth zone you with FAir, you lose. If he uses any other move, you have a chance to win.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
tl;dr the Ic mu strategy
Unplug controller or play so bad on purpose that there more busy sandbagging next two matches then paying attention to their spacing.
yes
Unplug controller or play so bad on purpose that there more busy sandbagging next two matches then paying attention to their spacing.
yes
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Ganon match-up discussions are hilarious
Exalted
Smash Lord
Ganon's a joke himself.
Exalted
Smash Lord
He can cut it...
...with his SWORD!
...with his SWORD!
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
Like every other RCO Lag, if you Lag with an aerial, it overwrites the RCO lag. If he Fairs on stage, he receives that almost-0 lag and it overwrites the RCO.
So he'll cancel it out with his FF FAir, just great ;\
@Exalted: We are trying to keep it real here atm.
A2ZOMG
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Well if you know he's gonna F-air, you could attempt to powershield it, which does let you punish him.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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...
...
Punishing FAir landing lag.
You're funny.
...
Punishing FAir landing lag.
You're funny.
A2ZOMG
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If he doesn't space his F-air as blatantly close to the ground as possible (which lets him throw bait you into Up-B) and if you're in shieldgrab/Jab range, then yeah. You have a pretty good chance of punishing Marth's F-air if you manage to powershield.
And rising F-airs are fair game to SH U-air out of shield if he's close enough.
And rising F-airs are fair game to SH U-air out of shield if he's close enough.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Honestly I don't mind this matchup, as long as it's not on YI (or BF to an extent).
The most important thing to do in this matchup is to keep your playstyle fresh. This matchup only becomes horrible for Ganon when he lets Marth play a reactionary game. So if you're being predictable, Marth doesn't have to react to your actions--he just has to react to his predictions of what your action will be. Because if he predicts you correctly, he already knows what you're going to do as well as the best way to punish it. So all he has to do is space it beforehand and time it correctly.
On the other hand, if you're being unpredictable and perform an action that he doesn't expect, not only does he have to register your action--he also has to think of the best way to punish it, and attempt to space himself so that he can time it properly and punish it. It's much harder, especially against an opponent as intimidating as Ganondorf.
I know you're probably thinking that you should try to be unpredictable in every matchup, so saying it here is pointless. What I'm saying, however, is that it's a lot more important in this matchup than it is in most matchups. Due to the nature of Marth's spacing, Ganon has a lot of tools to punish him for even slightly bad spacing--but you need to be unpredictable for them to be effective.
One of these tools is Wizkick. IMO, Wizkick is more important in this matchup than in any other matchup, by far. It just punishes Marth's whiffed Fairs so nicely. Most of my Wizkicks will hit Marth during his vulnerability frames when he hits the ground, or maybe a bit earlier. Something about the way that most Marths space just makes this work so well, as long as you're not being predictable.
Also, iDA is really good against a Marth who's spacing with SH fairs. It's a quicker punish than Wizkick obviously, and it's safer. Staling a kill move kinda sucks though.
If you're diagonally below Marth (after knocking him in the air), baiting an air dodge can be pretty easy since Marth doesn't have good options when his opponent is below. Landing a sweetspot Fair after a baited air dodge feels SO good, and it will **** Marth's **** up. Especially if he already used his DJ.
Now to my favorite part of this matchup... edgeguarding. Marth is probably the easiest character to edgeguard, in relation to his spot on the tier list. Which means you need to get Marth offstage as MUCH as possible. Note that Wizkick does this nicely, so if you're trying to be unpredictable with it, try using it in situations where it will probably knock him offstage. Once Marth is offstage, Ganon's usual edgeguarding tactics work very well in this matchup (uair/reverse uair, drop off aerials, etc). He can side B stall to try to throw you off, but it really isn't that great. If you're going to be going below the stage to edgeguard, however, make sure you're ready to tech his up B. If you're not good at teching, then you need to practice teching. Of course, don't TRY to get hit by the up B just so you can tech it; just be aware that it will happen somewhat often when you're fighting Marth offstage.
But one thing that I find effective (but kinda risky) is spiking Marth when he recovers with up B. More specifically, when you're on the stage, full hop off the stage, then fast fall a Dair directly into Marth's up B hitbox. Marth's up B is only out 1 frame I think? And Ganon's stomp is out for 6 frames. If Marth comes into contact with Ganon during those frames, he dies. And the best part is, you'll never get stage spiked when you space it properly. If you hit, then you'll get hit by a very weak hitbox which, if anything, just helps you recover. If you miss Marth with the spike, then you'll likely get hit by a stronger hitbox, but you'll probably be popped straight up and not into the stage. If you miss Marth altogether, then you still have a double jump and an up B. Luckily Marth just grabbed the ledge, so he probably won't be able to regrab it fast enough to edgehog you.
As far as the rest of the matchup goes... well I'm pretty sure you guys know the stupid stuff Marth can do to Ganon, especially if they play patiently. One thing to note is how hard it is for Ganon to get back onstage on YI or BF when he's hanging from the ledge. Marth covers all of his options very nicely on these stages. So make sure you avoid those stages... if I have to choose (I usually do), I'd ban YI and let him take me to BF, though that's likely because I dislike YI in general.
All in all, if you're good at gaining momentum in a match, you'll probably do well in this matchup. Just make sure you don't fall into a rut when you're fighting Marth, because he will systematically destroy you.
30:70
The most important thing to do in this matchup is to keep your playstyle fresh. This matchup only becomes horrible for Ganon when he lets Marth play a reactionary game. So if you're being predictable, Marth doesn't have to react to your actions--he just has to react to his predictions of what your action will be. Because if he predicts you correctly, he already knows what you're going to do as well as the best way to punish it. So all he has to do is space it beforehand and time it correctly.
On the other hand, if you're being unpredictable and perform an action that he doesn't expect, not only does he have to register your action--he also has to think of the best way to punish it, and attempt to space himself so that he can time it properly and punish it. It's much harder, especially against an opponent as intimidating as Ganondorf.
I know you're probably thinking that you should try to be unpredictable in every matchup, so saying it here is pointless. What I'm saying, however, is that it's a lot more important in this matchup than it is in most matchups. Due to the nature of Marth's spacing, Ganon has a lot of tools to punish him for even slightly bad spacing--but you need to be unpredictable for them to be effective.
One of these tools is Wizkick. IMO, Wizkick is more important in this matchup than in any other matchup, by far. It just punishes Marth's whiffed Fairs so nicely. Most of my Wizkicks will hit Marth during his vulnerability frames when he hits the ground, or maybe a bit earlier. Something about the way that most Marths space just makes this work so well, as long as you're not being predictable.
Also, iDA is really good against a Marth who's spacing with SH fairs. It's a quicker punish than Wizkick obviously, and it's safer. Staling a kill move kinda sucks though.
If you're diagonally below Marth (after knocking him in the air), baiting an air dodge can be pretty easy since Marth doesn't have good options when his opponent is below. Landing a sweetspot Fair after a baited air dodge feels SO good, and it will **** Marth's **** up. Especially if he already used his DJ.
Now to my favorite part of this matchup... edgeguarding. Marth is probably the easiest character to edgeguard, in relation to his spot on the tier list. Which means you need to get Marth offstage as MUCH as possible. Note that Wizkick does this nicely, so if you're trying to be unpredictable with it, try using it in situations where it will probably knock him offstage. Once Marth is offstage, Ganon's usual edgeguarding tactics work very well in this matchup (uair/reverse uair, drop off aerials, etc). He can side B stall to try to throw you off, but it really isn't that great. If you're going to be going below the stage to edgeguard, however, make sure you're ready to tech his up B. If you're not good at teching, then you need to practice teching. Of course, don't TRY to get hit by the up B just so you can tech it; just be aware that it will happen somewhat often when you're fighting Marth offstage.
But one thing that I find effective (but kinda risky) is spiking Marth when he recovers with up B. More specifically, when you're on the stage, full hop off the stage, then fast fall a Dair directly into Marth's up B hitbox. Marth's up B is only out 1 frame I think? And Ganon's stomp is out for 6 frames. If Marth comes into contact with Ganon during those frames, he dies. And the best part is, you'll never get stage spiked when you space it properly. If you hit, then you'll get hit by a very weak hitbox which, if anything, just helps you recover. If you miss Marth with the spike, then you'll likely get hit by a stronger hitbox, but you'll probably be popped straight up and not into the stage. If you miss Marth altogether, then you still have a double jump and an up B. Luckily Marth just grabbed the ledge, so he probably won't be able to regrab it fast enough to edgehog you.
As far as the rest of the matchup goes... well I'm pretty sure you guys know the stupid stuff Marth can do to Ganon, especially if they play patiently. One thing to note is how hard it is for Ganon to get back onstage on YI or BF when he's hanging from the ledge. Marth covers all of his options very nicely on these stages. So make sure you avoid those stages... if I have to choose (I usually do), I'd ban YI and let him take me to BF, though that's likely because I dislike YI in general.
All in all, if you're good at gaining momentum in a match, you'll probably do well in this matchup. Just make sure you don't fall into a rut when you're fighting Marth, because he will systematically destroy you.
30:70
A2ZOMG
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Dark Lord Almighty! That was an epic post.
Yeah I suck at teching. You're too amazing.
Yeah I suck at teching. You're too amazing.
Exalted
Smash Lord
Teching da bess.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Lol yeah, it was a bit longer than I wanted but it definitely served its purpose.
Anyways, I really like this matchup for some reason, and I'd go Ganon every time if my MK didn't absolutely **** every Marth I fight.
*waits...*
Anyways, I really like this matchup for some reason, and I'd go Ganon every time if my MK didn't absolutely **** every Marth I fight.
Exalted
Smash Lord
Did I see MK? Blasphemy!
thexsunrosered
Smash Lord
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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Durr.
If you're not familiar with MK, just picking him up won't guarantee the win. He's not that easy to pick up.
Given, he sucks as he doesn't have as much depth as Ganondorf.
If you're not familiar with MK, just picking him up won't guarantee the win. He's not that easy to pick up.
Given, he sucks as he doesn't have as much depth as Ganondorf.