0-Deaths, Infinites, and Team Grab Release.

[The Phazon Assassin]

I wanted to put this in the Tactical Boards because my questions are mostly based from a competitive standpoint. I'll post it here for now to see other's ideas on this.

OK, these are MY definitions of the following two terms. The community definition may be different, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Infinite-A move, or set of moves, that when done correctly, give the opponent no chance of escape. Also, can be done at absurgly high percentages. Example: Ice Climbers Alternating Grab, Dedede's Standing Chaingrab.

0-Death combo-1. Back in the good old days of Melee, this was a combo that brought your opponent from a fresh 0% to death. But, that's not what I'm getting at.
2. A series of moves very similar to an infinite, however, tends to stop working, either because of space restraints, or damage/knockback restraints. Example: Pikachu's Chaingrab against Fox, Bowser's Grab Release (I need better examples, I don't know if these are actual 0-deaths)

Now, I just have a few questions.

1. Why ban Dedede's Small Step chaingrab?

I can understand banning his Standing Infinite. Even though he can only do it to five people onstage, a couple more at a ledge, the timing is incredibly simple, especially given a 10 frame buffer window. But, his Small Step isn't an infinite. It's not even a 0-death, unless I'm doing it wrong or something. The Ice Climbers can guarantee a kill on any character at no MORE than 150%. Pikachu can Usmash, which MAY KO Fox, if not, Pikachu can just follow DI and Thunder. Dedede only has two "kill" options, Dtilt and Fthrow, both of which can be DI'ed and survived at over 200% (given the people he can do this against, mind you).

Also, we allow 0-Death combos, so why doesn't Dedede get similar treatment? His "combo" doesn't even guarantee a kill.

2. Why ban every other infinite, but allow the Ice Climbers ALL of theirs?

Yes, chain grabbing is a big part of their metagame. Hell, that IS their metagame. Get a grab, take a stock. And, on top of that, there are hardly any other true infinites in this game. There's Jab/Tilt/Laser locks, but those are VERY situational, and not really infinites, unless done against a wall.

Hmmmm, as I was typing this, I realized that, really, only the Ice Climbers and Dedede have infinites. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I thing the "Any and all infinites are banned, including, but not limited to, Dedede's Standing Chaingrab" should be re-worded at least. Don't ban infinites if the Ice Climbers can do theirs. (Yes, I'm nitpicking. I hate the Icey's chaingrab, but that's another discussion)

3. In a 2v1 situation, a grab release "combo" into another grab is an infinite, right?

We've all seen it somewhere. I'm sure most of you have done it. Even I'm guilty of it. You grab someone, your opponent breaks free, your teammate grabs him, he breaks free again, 37 pummels later, someone charges an Usmash and kills the solitary player. Why do we allow this? A 2v1 situation =/= grab release death, or it shouldn't at least. Personally, I think we should eliminate it completely. There are several solutions though:

1: Get rid of it completely.
2: Limit it's number of consecutive uses.
3: Limit it to a set damage percentage.
4. Limit it based on opponents damage percentage.
5. Leave it be.

........this has poll written all over it.

Anyway, the "1" in a 2v1 should have a fair shot at pulling of an insane comeback. We gotta make Brawl exciting somehow, right?

Well, I think I'm done now. I'm looking forward to hearing some thoughts on these topics.

MAN, typing on Wiinet builds up an appitite. I'm gonna make a bowl of cereal.

And methinks I spelled "appitite" wrong.

 

[Saltix]

Excuse me, but where is the small step chaingrab banned >__>
As far as I know, it isn't.

 

[CT Chia]

I'll read all of it soon when I have a chance, but to answer OcTIx, the small step is banned at a lot of events around the Atl North. I can't give you an exact list of all of the events that due, but any event that I hold will have it banned.

It gives WAY too much damage even across small stages, and sets up the opponent perfect for an edgeguard. It's a very easy tactic to ban (Dedede must dash between grabs) unlike trying to ban the ICs stuff which is really hard, because they can infinite like 20 different ways. So if it's easily bannable, and can eliminate some matchups that almost become 100-0 with it on, then I say it goes.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Excuse me, but where is the small step chaingrab banned >__>
As far as I know, it isn't.

Yeah, being a Dedede main, I see this everywhere I go.

@Chibo: You say it does way too much damage, even on small stages. Difficulty aside, how is that any different from the Ice Climbers spam?

 

[Xebenkeck]

i always thought a good way to stop ddd's infinate but not the ice climbers was to increse the knockback from 1.0 to 1.1, but apparently no one likes that idea

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Look at it this way.

D3 has the longest grab range of any character without an "extended" grab (i.e. TL). Iirc, D3's small step chain grab is fairly easy to do.

IC's have a horrid grab range, it's a lot easier for someone to space so the IC's don't get a grab than it is to space so D3 doesn't get a grab. The IC's infinite is VERY hard to do consistently. Even very good players cannot do this "forever" ftmp.

This means that D3's is easier to initiate and complete.

Personally, I don't care, I'm just saying.

:sniper:

 

[CT Chia]

@Chibo: You say it does way too much damage, even on small stages. Difficulty aside, how is that any different from the Ice Climbers spam?

While there are some differences, I am one of the very few people out there that want the ICs infinite banned. I tried banning it at a tourney last year, and all it did was spawn about 10 pages of arguing on the thread -_-

One of the biggest problems about it was how do you ban it? If you ban passing back and forth, then they hobble or some crap or some weird infinite grab that I've never even seen before.

The main differences from the two are:
Making DDDs worse:
-Longer grab range, very easy to shield grab
-Easier to do
-Works at all percents and situations
Making IC's worse:
-It ends in death
-Can happen pretty much anywhere on stage
-Works on all characters

Both are pretty bad, but it's no doubt that ICs are worse overall since that ends in guaranteed death.

My main argument against it is - since the ICs chain grab makes the opponent lose all control of their character (there is no way to DI out of it or anything) while it works on every character from 0 to death, makes it bannable imo. If only more people thought this way...

 

[cutter]

It gives WAY too much damage even across small stages, and sets up the opponent perfect for an edgeguard. It's a very easy tactic to ban (Dedede must dash between grabs) unlike trying to ban the ICs stuff which is really hard, because they can infinite like 20 different ways. So if it's easily bannable, and can eliminate some matchups that almost become 100-0 with it on, then I say it goes.

So why didn't we ban Melee Sheik's chaingrabs then? Just like DDD, Sheik has many LOL matchups (more than DDD has) because of her Dthrow chaingrab. Why didn't we fix those matchups? Why should we give special treatment to the infinite victims?

Banning stuff to artifically increase specific matchups shouldn't be done. DDD's infinites have proven they are not broken or overcentralizing, and so they should not warrant a ban.

 

[marthmaster04]

not to mention DDDs chains and infs take nearly no skill to do..the very first time I played brawl after I heard about his chains many months ago, I was able to do em barely trying, Tho the iceys infs may be broke as a b**** they're at least a little harder to do. But I agree they should be banned. I'm glad to see some soft bans goin around on this. It will force players to be more creative.

 

[cutter]

Difficulty of execution shouldn't be considered. If something can be humanly done, it will be mastered. ICs infinites might be really hard to do, but there are people who can do it to near perfection.

 

[Xebenkeck]

So why didn't we ban Melee Sheik's chaingrabs then? Just like DDD, Sheik has many LOL matchups (more than DDD has) because of her Dthrow chaingrab. Why didn't we fix those matchups? Why should we give special treatment to the infinite victims?

Banning stuff to artifically increase specific matchups shouldn't be done. DDD's infinites have proven they are not broken or overcentralizing, and so they should not warrant a ban.

Hence one of the reasons Melee was so imbalanced, Brawl is a new game and we should stop things at the start, oppose to let them happen like we did in melee. We should strive to make this game as balanced as possible, getting rid of D3's infinate makes of 5 other characters more tourney viable, and viable to win a tournament. Getting rid of the IC chaingrabs however doesn't affect anyone except them, you get rid of there CG's you throw away their entire Meta-game up to this point.

 

[RDK]

Hence one of the reasons Melee was so imbalanced, Brawl is a new game and we should stop things at the start, oppose to let them happen like we did in melee. We should strive to make this game as balanced as possible, getting rid of D3's infinate makes of 5 other characters more tourney viable, and viable to win a tournament. Getting rid of the IC chaingrabs however doesn't affect anyone except them, you get rid of there CG's you throw away their entire Meta-game up to this point.

This thinking is inane and outmoded.

We do not ban things to balance or fix individual matchups. If we did, the D3 or IC infinites are the last thing you should be worrying about.

The D3 infinite doesn't effect a slightly significant portion of the cast, let alone the amount it would take before we should actually consider a ban. The IC infinite works on everybody, but pulling it off is so difficult and risky that it balances itself out (those of you unfamiliar with what conditions it takes to perform one should look it up). Neither break the game, overcentralize, or prevent competition.

Don't fix what's not broken.

Edit: if the pro-bies are going to continue with this logic, I'm just going to go ahead and link to the old D3 infinite ban thread so you can all educate yourself instead of wasting people's time with multiple threads of the same rehashed arguments.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Ummm. I wanna see that thread. I wanna edubacate myself.

 

[Saltix]

Whats the difference between a soft ban and a hard ban?
I always wondered the difference, and I think now's a good time to ask

 

[Mit]

I think the 2v1 grab releases are okay. You should gain a good advantage if you eliminate one of your two opponents, and it's not completely easy to pull off, as both teammates need to be in the correct position and ready for the grab release, as the opponent might break out before the teammates are in place. If you're the lone player in a 2v1, you should never allow yourself to have your opponents on offense while on both sides of you, to avoid situations like this and other similar ones as well.

 

[kr3wman]

A hard ban is a written rule.

A soft ban is a rule that is agreed by most players. However, USA isn't known to be that humble.