ZSS's personal MU-ratio: Diddykong

[wWw Dazwa]

Try to stay on topic guys, we're discussing Snake, not Meta Knight, and DEFINITELY not ZSS Player-related drama.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Wow, I stop by the boards and see I should have brought a popcorn.gif.

 

[Deathfox30]

Mmm, this is going nowhere fast. Anyway, can we get back to discussing Snake? .-. I don't have time right now, but I'll post my opinions later and I think it's pretty even 45-55 at the worst. <3 you SFP

 

[NickRiddle]

vs

SFP
Ratio: 50:50
I suspect I will be in the minority in still insisting this match-up is relatively even, but this is one of the few instances where ZSS will be the polar opposite of her opponent character. Snake's attributes are flat-out superior (launch resistance, specifically) and his DACUS and dash attack give him a lot of speed on the ground that he can use to counter ZSS which can make things difficult, but ZSS' moveset is just better in this match-up. Like MK, Tilts and dsmash are pretty effective and her air game just makes his life difficult, especially when combined with his poor aerial mobility. Off-stage, ZSS just plain wins and should be dealing 30-50% damage each time he's off. Frankly, the only thing that stops ZSS from whooping Snake hard is how hard he hits vs. how light she is; it only takes like 5-6 hits to put ZSS in utilt range, which is fortunately pretty easy to avoid, but it's still something you have to worry about. Grenade camping is only as big a deal as ZSS chooses to make of it, and she can glide toss them, which is something we probably don't utilize enough. Catch the **** things, they don't hurt that bad unless they've been cooking.


NickRiddle
Ratio: 60:40
Snake is stupid. Tilts are annoying to get around, and will always beat every move we have, except for d-smash. When you're at kill percent, it's like Snake has this magical bubble around him, that you WILL NEVER GET INTO! U-tilt sucks for that reason. Grenades are annoying too, especially because Snake has that ****ing psychic drop bull****. It would be worse if we didn't edgeguard him, like everybody else. Teehee~

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

vs

SFP
Ratio: 50:50
I suspect I will be in the minority in still insisting this match-up is relatively even, but this is one of the few instances where ZSS will be the polar opposite of her opponent character. Snake's attributes are flat-out superior (launch resistance, specifically) and his DACUS and dash attack give him a lot of speed on the ground that he can use to counter ZSS which can make things difficult, but ZSS' moveset is just better in this match-up. Like MK, Tilts and dsmash are pretty effective and her air game just makes his life difficult, especially when combined with his poor aerial mobility. Off-stage, ZSS just plain wins and should be dealing 30-50% damage each time he's off. Frankly, the only thing that stops ZSS from whooping Snake hard is how hard he hits vs. how light she is; it only takes like 5-6 hits to put ZSS in utilt range, which is fortunately pretty easy to avoid, but it's still something you have to worry about. Grenade camping is only as big a deal as ZSS chooses to make of it, and she can glide toss them, which is something we probably don't utilize enough. Catch the **** things, they don't hurt that bad unless they've been cooking.


NickRiddle
Ratio: 60:40
Snake is stupid. Tilts are annoying to get around, and will always beat every move we have, except for d-smash. When you're at kill percent, it's like Snake has this magical bubble around him, that you WILL NEVER GET INTO! U-tilt sucks for that reason. Grenades are annoying too, especially because Snake has that ****ing psychic drop bull****. It would be worse if we didn't edgeguard him, like everybody else. Teehee~

Xonar
Ratio: 50/50
Grenades are no deal, in fact, I think it improves the matchup for us if he keeps using them without getting a read. Yes, I think Snake needs a hard read to hit with a grenade while camping. That said, Snake sucks at approaching and ZSS is great at running. Crouching is really good against Snake, it allows you to avoid ftilt1, jab and grab. Crouching is a baiting tool and spacer. Overall, sideB really gets a Snake who gets predictable with Nade dropping, though as always, don't sideB too much. We can outrun him til he has to approach, then get him on that. His nades give us some more mobility too, thats cool, right?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Is there any reason why we're doing "_______ vs ZSS" and not the other way around? It seems deliberately confusing to not have our respective character as the first listed one, especially for the matchup ratio numbers >_>

 

[Zero]

I thought this match was even, then I played Hall and THINGS EXPLODE! I really need to play him some more to reevaluate.

 

[solecalibur]

I'll change it , and anyone can post like I said your not gonna be punished as long as your legitimately trying to discuss your views on the MU

 

[Nefarious B]

vs
45:55

This matchup is hard as balls. It really requires us to land something dumb on Snake to win IMO, we can't beat him off of normal play alone if you're around the same skill level. That being said, Snake is one of the easier characters to gay, and we have tools that are stupidly good for gaying him.

Crouching doesn't avoid ftilt 1 Xonar, did you mean crawling? That's still really good though. I agree that we can avoid Snake's nades pretty easily if we have plats to climb around on. Having to approach through nades though.. it's really hard if they know what they're doing.

I duno, I personally consider this my worst personal matchup as of now, so anything I say goes with grain of salt.

 

[zApollo]

I agree with Nefarious' comments above and his ratio. After playing Hall recently I figured the key is to keep pressuring snake and always be within his discomfort zone.

 

[solecalibur]

I'll leave this up til Tuesdayish
then we are moving on!

 

[Deathfox30]

Grenades are almost useless in this match up. We can also juggle snake extremely well provided we can get him in the air. If he didn't have a ridiculous disjoint on his F tilt that does like 26% each time and we weren't light, I think this would be heavily in our favor. The only thing that really makes this even is just how hard Snake hits compared to how light we are and how much trouble we have killing. I find D tilt extremely useful in this MU. I'm not completely sure about this, but I think if we spam D tilt on shield we can avoid a shield grab and hit before anything he can do OoS. I don't have any real experience against good Snakes but these are my impressions from facing a few decent wifi Snakes.

I think D tilt could be big against a lot of tall characters if it can beat F tilt 1 OoS and avoid shield grabs.

 

[Nefarious B]

Snake can ftilt us if we hit his shield with dtilt. It does duck a shield grab though, which for some reason is the more common reaction IMExperience

 

[solecalibur]

vs
Nefarious
45:55

This matchup is hard as balls. It really requires us to land something dumb on Snake to win IMO, we can't beat him off of normal play alone if you're around the same skill level. That being said, Snake is one of the easier characters to gay, and we have tools that are stupidly good for gaying him.

Crouching doesn't avoid ftilt 1 Xonar, did you mean crawling? That's still really good though. I agree that we can avoid Snake's nades pretty easily if we have plats to climb around on. Having to approach through nades though.. it's really hard if they know what they're doing.

I duno, I personally consider this my worst personal matchup as of now, so anything I say goes with grain of salt.

Deathfox30
??:??
Grenades are almost useless in this match up. We can also juggle snake extremely well provided we can get him in the air. If he didn't have a ridiculous disjoint on his F tilt that does like 26% each time and we weren't light, I think this would be heavily in our favor. The only thing that really makes this even is just how hard Snake hits compared to how light we are and how much trouble we have killing. I find D tilt extremely useful in this MU. I'm not completely sure about this, but I think if we spam D tilt on shield we can avoid a shield grab and hit before anything he can do OoS. I don't have any real experience against good Snakes but these are my impressions from facing a few decent wifi Snakes.

I think D tilt could be big against a lot of tall characters if it can beat F tilt 1 OoS and avoid shield grabs.

Solecalibur
40:60

Gahh this MU is annoying , you have to kill snake 3 times but he has the health of 6 stocks , unless you get a lucky gimp (down b on his UpB , his Cypher knocks you back like MK's shuttle loop) (flipstool when he is c4 recovering) , NEVER NEVER dash attack until at least 42% as your just gotta get ftilt'd has he doesn't really fall back that far , you can sheild grab all his tilts, we are essentially marth in this MU but we are much lighter in weight which puts us a disadvantage. Get those early "combos" and try and gimp him if possible, remember snakes have aura at 170 ****ing %


edit - i'll change later I wanna see some people moving this week!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can Dash Attack snake after 42%.

 

[solecalibur]

Fix'd =X , SFP should probly post your opinion as well

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You guys are missing mine, sfp's and nick's lol

 

[Deathfox30]

vs

SFP
Ratio: 50:50

I suspect I will be in the minority in still insisting this match-up is relatively even, but this is one of the few instances where ZSS will be the polar opposite of her opponent character. Snake's attributes are flat-out superior (launch resistance, specifically) and his DACUS and dash attack give him a lot of speed on the ground that he can use to counter ZSS which can make things difficult, but ZSS' moveset is just better in this match-up. Like MK, Tilts and dsmash are pretty effective and her air game just makes his life difficult, especially when combined with his poor aerial mobility. Off-stage, ZSS just plain wins and should be dealing 30-50% damage each time he's off. Frankly, the only thing that stops ZSS from whooping Snake hard is how hard he hits vs. how light she is; it only takes like 5-6 hits to put ZSS in utilt range, which is fortunately pretty easy to avoid, but it's still something you have to worry about. Grenade camping is only as big a deal as ZSS chooses to make of it, and she can glide toss them, which is something we probably don't utilize enough. Catch the **** things, they don't hurt that bad unless they've been cooking.


NickRiddle
Ratio: 40:60

Snake is stupid. Tilts are annoying to get around, and will always beat every move we have, except for d-smash. When you're at kill percent, it's like Snake has this magical bubble around him, that you WILL NEVER GET INTO! U-tilt sucks for that reason. Grenades are annoying too, especially because Snake has that ****ing psychic drop bull****. It would be worse if we didn't edgeguard him, like everybody else. Teehee~

Xonar
Ratio: 50:50

Grenades are no deal, in fact, I think it improves the matchup for us if he keeps using them without getting a read. Yes, I think Snake needs a hard read to hit with a grenade while camping. That said, Snake sucks at approaching and ZSS is great at running. Crouching is really good against Snake, it allows you to avoid ftilt1, jab and grab. Crouching is a baiting tool and spacer. Overall, sideB really gets a Snake who gets predictable with Nade dropping, though as always, don't sideB too much. We can outrun him til he has to approach, then get him on that. His nades give us some more mobility too, thats cool, right?

Nefarious
Ratio: 45:55

This matchup is hard as balls. It really requires us to land something dumb on Snake to win IMO, we can't beat him off of normal play alone if you're around the same skill level. That being said, Snake is one of the easier characters to gay, and we have tools that are stupidly good for gaying him.

Crouching doesn't avoid ftilt 1 Xonar, did you mean crawling? That's still really good though. I agree that we can avoid Snake's nades pretty easily if we have plats to climb around on. Having to approach through nades though.. it's really hard if they know what they're doing.

I duno, I personally consider this my worst personal matchup as of now, so anything I say goes with grain of salt.

Deathfox30
Ratio: 50:50

Grenades are almost useless in this match up. We can also juggle snake extremely well provided we can get him in the air. If he didn't have a ridiculous disjoint on his F tilt that does like 26% each time and we weren't light, I think this would be heavily in our favor. The only thing that really makes this even is just how hard Snake hits compared to how light we are and how much trouble we have killing. I find D tilt extremely useful in this MU. Spamming D tilt on shield allows you to duck under shield grabs.

Solecalibur
Ratio: 40:60

Gahh this MU is annoying , you have to kill snake 3 times but he has the health of 6 stocks , unless you get a lucky gimp (down b on his UpB , his Cypher knocks you back like MK's shuttle loop) (flipstool when he is c4 recovering) , NEVER NEVER dash attack until at least 42% as your just gotta get ftilt'd has he doesn't really fall back that far , you can sheild grab all his tilts, we are essentially marth in this MU but we are much lighter in weight which puts us a disadvantage. Get those early "combos" and try and gimp him if possible, remember snakes have aura at 170 ****ing %

 

[solecalibur]

vs

SFP
Ratio: 50:50
I suspect I will be in the minority in still insisting this match-up is relatively even, but this is one of the few instances where ZSS will be the polar opposite of her opponent character. Snake's attributes are flat-out superior (launch resistance, specifically) and his DACUS and dash attack give him a lot of speed on the ground that he can use to counter ZSS which can make things difficult, but ZSS' moveset is just better in this match-up. Like MK, Tilts and dsmash are pretty effective and her air game just makes his life difficult, especially when combined with his poor aerial mobility. Off-stage, ZSS just plain wins and should be dealing 30-50% damage each time he's off. Frankly, the only thing that stops ZSS from whooping Snake hard is how hard he hits vs. how light she is; it only takes like 5-6 hits to put ZSS in utilt range, which is fortunately pretty easy to avoid, but it's still something you have to worry about. Grenade camping is only as big a deal as ZSS chooses to make of it, and she can glide toss them, which is something we probably don't utilize enough. Catch the **** things, they don't hurt that bad unless they've been cooking.


NickRiddle
Ratio: 60:40
Snake is stupid. Tilts are annoying to get around, and will always beat every move we have, except for d-smash. When you're at kill percent, it's like Snake has this magical bubble around him, that you WILL NEVER GET INTO! U-tilt sucks for that reason. Grenades are annoying too, especially because Snake has that ****ing psychic drop bull****. It would be worse if we didn't edgeguard him, like everybody else. Teehee~

Xonar
Ratio: 50/50
Grenades are no deal, in fact, I think it improves the matchup for us if he keeps using them without getting a read. Yes, I think Snake needs a hard read to hit with a grenade while camping. That said, Snake sucks at approaching and ZSS is great at running. Crouching is really good against Snake, it allows you to avoid ftilt1, jab and grab. Crouching is a baiting tool and spacer. Overall, sideB really gets a Snake who gets predictable with Nade dropping, though as always, don't sideB too much. We can outrun him til he has to approach, then get him on that. His nades give us some more mobility too, thats cool, right?

Nefarious
45:55

This matchup is hard as balls. It really requires us to land something dumb on Snake to win IMO, we can't beat him off of normal play alone if you're around the same skill level. That being said, Snake is one of the easier characters to gay, and we have tools that are stupidly good for gaying him.

Crouching doesn't avoid ftilt 1 Xonar, did you mean crawling? That's still really good though. I agree that we can avoid Snake's nades pretty easily if we have plats to climb around on. Having to approach through nades though.. it's really hard if they know what they're doing.

I duno, I personally consider this my worst personal matchup as of now, so anything I say goes with grain of salt.

Deathfox30
50:50
Grenades are almost useless in this match up. We can also juggle snake extremely well provided we can get him in the air. If he didn't have a ridiculous disjoint on his F tilt that does like 26% each time and we weren't light, I think this would be heavily in our favor. The only thing that really makes this even is just how hard Snake hits compared to how light we are and how much trouble we have killing. I find D tilt extremely useful in this MU. Spamming D tilt on shield allows you to duck under shield grabs, but Snake's f tilt1 will beat it.

Solecalibur
40:60

Gahh this MU is annoying , you have to kill snake 3 times but he has the health of 6 stocks , unless you get a lucky gimp (down b on his UpB , his Cypher knocks you back like MK's shuttle loop) (flipstool when he is c4 recovering) , NEVER NEVER dash attack until at least 42% as your just gotta get ftilt'd has he doesn't really fall back that far , you can sheild grab all his tilts, we are essentially marth in this MU but we are much lighter in weight which puts us a disadvantage. Get those early "combos" and try and gimp him if possible, remember snakes have aura at 170 ****ing %

Edited mine a little.

ninja'd me

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Change Nick's to 40/60, that's what he ment.

 

[Deathfox30]

Done. And nothing has a chance against F tilt. :/ Do we have anything safe on shield up close?

 

[SuSa]

Snake's best OoS option is usmash, or OoS dair... not including his grab.

If you can find a move that is closerange that outspeeds/outranges the above options, then those are safe on shield. Just be sure to compare our speed of attack with your endlag. You should also just assume we powershielded your attack, rather than a normal shield... <_<

 

[Deathfox30]

I thought F tilt's hitbox came out the same frame as the first part of U smash OoS...and Jab was a frame earlier or something. I don't know much about frame data but wouldn't it be (in terms of speed):

1) Grab = 8 2) Dair = ? frames 3) Jab = 10 frames 3) F tilt/U smash = 11 frames

I think Snake can Shield drop F tilt us after we D smash(?), F tilt, U tilt, or D tilt before we can jab.

Snakeee said if they shield our jab3, we can hit them with Jab1 before they can grab, iirc.

This is probably way, way off (I know absolutely nothing about frame data), but F tilt out ranges everything we have except F smash, D tilt (?), and D Smash. And it out speeds everything except U tilt and Jab? Excluding specials.

From what I've seen, Snakes try to either F tilt or grab OoS.

So, we either have to perfectly space a D tilt or D Smash perfectly or spam jab if we're going to hit his shield?

 

[Nefarious B]

Bair is 100% safe against Snake's shield.

nB is safe even on PS if you space it for max range. they can maybe dash attack

Uair is technically safe but in practice it's hard not to get grabbed if the Snake is moving to mess with your spacing.

Dsmash is very safe on his shield. We can dtilt after a dsmash (non PS) and hit him before he can punish with anything except a jab (which if you have any kind of spacing you should outrange his jab with dsmash).

You definitely cannot spam jab on his shield, every character can punish jab 3 on their shield.

Dtilt can be ftilted every time but it requires faster reaction than most people have. Kind of like how we can technically grab an MK's fair on shield every time, but it's hard to react that fast.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

We can grab MK's fair on shield every time?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You definitely cannot spam jab on his shield, every character can punish jab 3 on their shield.

That's not true. Link doesn't have a single OOS option that can beat jab 1, he has to roll away. Pit's grab can't shieldgrab jab 3 at max range, so you can actually continue to jab him too I believe.

 

[solecalibur]

Edit'd OP and switched the ratios around so zss is first for confused seagulls
Next up : Diddykong

 

[Deathfox30]

Maybe he said it only works on some characters. I don't think G&W can do anything either, I know he can't shield jab 3.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you jab Link and he shields, spam jab until he rolls away and punish.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

vs

Xonar
Ratio: 35/65
I guess I'm one of those people who really suck at this MU, because it's overall believed to be really even. I however think this MU is even worse than Falco. Diddy's ground game absolutely dominates us, as soon as we take the air don't count on landing any time soon without taking damage. So, we can't really take the air except if he is in the air (and even if you're both in the air, you have to make sure you get to the ground faster even with our crappy fastfall), now a smart Diddy will probably just abuse his ground game and not take the air on his own free will. You can't use your little Dsmash and SideB tricks to get Diddy in the air, he has bananas. Once he is in the air, he has nanas against juggling and sideB to get out of your grip. Overall, medium difficulty to juggle. So, it basicly comes down to this: He beats you on the ground, he in no way is going to take the air. Once he has you, you're done. Don't shield, you'll be in for a ride all the way to hell and back. Don't attack his shield, same thing. The only thing that makes this MU doable for ZSS is when she gets a banana, but you probably won't get a lot of those opportunities. Inb4 Nick almost beat ADHD. ADHD was playing bad imo.

 

[NickRiddle]

vs

Xonar
Ratio: 35/65
I guess I'm one of those people who really suck at this MU, because it's overall believed to be really even. I however think this MU is even worse than Falco. Diddy's ground game absolutely dominates us, as soon as we take the air don't count on landing any time soon without taking damage. So, we can't really take the air except if he is in the air (and even if you're both in the air, you have to make sure you get to the ground faster even with our crappy fastfall), now a smart Diddy will probably just abuse his ground game and not take the air on his own free will. You can't use your little Dsmash and SideB tricks to get Diddy in the air, he has bananas. Once he is in the air, he has nanas against juggling and sideB to get out of your grip. Overall, medium difficulty to juggle. So, it basicly comes down to this: He beats you on the ground, he in no way is going to take the air. Once he has you, you're done. Don't shield, you'll be in for a ride all the way to hell and back. Don't attack his shield, same thing. The only thing that makes this MU doable for ZSS is when she gets a banana, but you probably won't get a lot of those opportunities. Inb4 Nick beat ADHD. ADHD was playing bad imo.

I lost the set to him.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Oh right, you did go close though.

 

[Lord Chair]

Looool Diddy is mad easy to juggle. If Wario can do it, so can ZSS. Nanas aren't supposed to invalidate your juggle game. He can't throw them diagonally, so long as you space your uair so that you make use of the silly arc it has, you shouldn't find yourself obstructed by nanas.

Invinci-dropping (Zdrop>airdodge) is overrated because of the aforementioned reason: it's no different from a normal airdodge so long as you space properly. Monkey flip is a mediocre anti-juggling tool, by committing to Monkey Flip he pretty much takes away one his best options to cover his landing with (if Diddy no longer has his Monkey Flip, you can technically wait for his landing without having to worry about anything but spacing w/e you want to catch his landing with). As such, chase. If he uses Monkey Flip, fastfall and land earlier than he does and proceed to catch his landing.

Diddy's aerial mobility is total garbage, don't ever forget that.

 

[FIERCE]

Can't you U-air out of sheild to grab the bananas that hit your sheild? That was a strategy I used recently while playing a friend that liked to glide toss them at me a lot on FD. I ledge camp a lot in this matchup, at least until either there's one banana in my hand, or one on the stage.

EDIT:

I agree with Nefarious' comments above and his ratio. After playing Hall recently I figured the key is to keep pressuring snake and always be within his discomfort zone.

I thought this match was even, then I played Hall and THINGS EXPLODE! I really need to play him some more to reevaluate.

How did you two do against Hall? I play him all the time down in San Diego since we live pretty close and we go even all the time now (he used to obliterate me before). Against Hall though I've learned that he is extremely patient and has no problem tossing grenades out if you don't plan on going anywhere. A 'Cat & Mouse' playstyle works well against him, I think.

 

[Dumbfire]

You can Z catch, Airdgode catch and catch them with most Arials Oos..
And lol I wouldn't advise going to FD FIERCe.

 

[Nefarious B]

45:55

I actually like FD better than SV in this matchup. I think the main reasoning for not going to FD is that it gives Diddy more room to pull nanners, and allows for longer nanner locks. I just find SV much harder to stall on, and my main goal in this matchup is to force them to throw the nanners or repull them. So against an agressive Diddy you just have to worry about countering his approaches, but against a Diddy that stands back and shoots peanuts you pretty much just have to wait until the nanner on the ground fades so that you're only dealing with one.

Maybe it's just that the diddys i've played weren't very good, but I find that if you mixup your means of dealing with a nanner on shield (don't get predictable basically) they have a very hard time starting combos on us.

Like, you can shield to SH zgrab OOS, SH fair if they try and fair you out of the zgrab, SH airdodge punish the end lag of his fair, or just roll behind as he runs in to grab you. Don't bother trying to deal much damage in the neutral state, if the Diddy's any good you'll just get shielded and punished. Try and bait him into throwing his nanners at you, or just wait until he has to repull again. 1 nanner can be shielded easily and dealt with most of the time, but two is much more difficult. So force him to repull and try and knock him off stage in the process.

We also have very solid CPs on him which can't be discounted, if you're the same level as them it should be a win for us if you can take them to Brinstar or RC

 

[solecalibur]

bump for activity , I'll get to mine later