ZSS problem

[saviorslegacy]

Okay, I entered a tourney this past Friday. It was double elemination, I was on the last match and I hadn't lost yet. I was almost positive I would get first. At the tourney they had this gay rule where you register you character. -_- You can't change your character. So it was Falco vs ZSS. I hate this guy now (not really). He kept on shooting his laser, dash attacking and using a+a+a combo. If I tried to reflect her laser I would have lag and get the combo. If I shielded I would avoid his attack but face it again. I tried shield grabbing but he just timed it differently and hit me on my ending frames. If I used lasers she would crawl under them. If I Illusioned him he would use Plasma wip or laser. I tried using combo's but I was at FD both times. ps It was on random stage select and only FD and BF. Nice how I didn't get BF huh? T-T So... what is a good stradegy?

ps He was in the losers bracket and we had two matches. The first match he beat me with 2 stock and about 80 damage on a 3 stock match. On our second match it was 1 stock 115 damage. I tried mind games.

 

[J4pu]

I'm not gunna say you are bad at smash because if you made it to the finals in a tourney you must be pretty good, but dang this entire post screamed scrub. You need to learn what terms mean before using them. When you say none of your options work because he had a counter for it, it makes it sound like you were being predictable, because he was able to predict and adapt and punish. I'm guessing that your strategies worked once or twice but then he got wise to them and you continued to use them even though he was planning on you using them (just a guess), if this is the case you need to be able to constantly cycle through different strategies so that in a given situation your opponent is not able to accurately predict (with greater than about 30% success rate) what you are going to do. I'm not saying it's easy, because it isn't, but that's what good players are able to do.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm not gunna say you are bad at smash because if you made it to the finals in a tourney you must be pretty good, but dang this entire post screamed scrub. You need to learn what terms mean before using them. When you say none of your options work because he had a counter for it, it makes it sound like you were being predictable, because he was able to predict and adapt and punish. I'm guessing that your strategies worked once or twice but then he got wise to them and you continued to use them even though he was planning on you using them (just a guess), if this is the case you need to be able to constantly cycle through different strategies so that in a given situation your opponent is not able to accurately predict (with greater than about 30% success rate) what you are going to do. I'm not saying it's easy, because it isn't, but that's what good players are able to do.

I was not being predictable. He was just spacing. He would only use plasma wip and laser, and only combo when the laser hit. I would have to get in close to combo. So when I would aproach (he camped and never aproach... and lasers wouldn't hit him... ducking) I would get a laser combo or a wip. If I rolled he would just use a+a+a combo then repeat the spam. So I almost had no options.... except for aproaching by jumping. He punished this too. However I rarely used it.

If you noticed on when I told you the scores on the two matches I turned the tides on the last one. The only thing I had left was mind games. -_- Which was funny cause he would run into a smash after I stepped dodged his laser..... I was trying to make him ancious (or however you spell it) and it worked. Drew the matches out though. XD

 

[gunterrsmash01]

You need to laser him. and if he crawls, Side B into him. when he gets annoyed by this he will start approaching and then the match is in your hands.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You need to laser him. and if he crawls, Side B into him. when he gets annoyed by this he will start approaching and then the match is in your hands.

This was one of my stradegies. I also would do it in reverse.

 

[J4pu]

your constant use of the words combo and mindgames makes me want to slap you.

 

[B0mbe1c]

I wouldve spammed SHDL/SHL until he got close to me and then Phantasm'ed or something. Also, SH phantasm wouldve hit him if he was crawling/crouched if you do it correct.

 

[Mith_]

lol.
i dunno what to tell you but that tourney was kinda wtf since you couldnt change ur character and only 2 levels on random all the time. i had the same thing happen to me in my first tourney except.....it was normal. (and i didn't make it to the finals. cuz g&w fails against toon link and snake which i did not know at the time)

 

[XxBlackxX]

your constant use of the words combo and mindgames makes me want to slap you.

lol this.
there are no combos in brawl remember? xD

anyways the tourney you were in sounds really...scrubbish no offense. only 2 maps, and random? AND no counterpicking different characters? what kinda tourney is this, im surprised not everyone picked MK >_>

anyways for your original problem, remember that falco outcamps ZSS but ZSS has far greater melee range so CAMP! if you're getting laser spammed by ZSS, you're obviously doing something wrong...

EDIT: at least you made it to the finals. on my first tourney, i placed 23/25 xD

 

[8AngeL8]

ZSS players LOVE to roll around you and use their jab AAA, and dash attacks. When they start doing that, watch their roll and have a jab combo of your own waiting. Try to stay away with lasers when you can.

I find Bair and Nair really useful because if you're at SH height, she can't use her whips without eating a Dair, but she can't really jab combo you either. She has to jump up to meet you, and you beat her if you're not directly above her.

 

[Vorguen]

Maybe he was just better than you. lol

 

[ftl]

Isn't the third hit of ZSSs AAA really slow? I don't know this from experience, but I remember in the SBR weekly character discussions that being mentioned. Does shieldgrabbing between the 2nd and 3rd hits of the AAA work, or is Falco's grab not fast enough for that? (Or is there enough time to spotdodge or shield or something, if you got hit with the first two?)

 

[J4pu]

Isn't the third hit of ZSSs AAA really slow? I don't know this from experience, but I remember in the SBR weekly character discussions that being mentioned. Does shieldgrabbing between the 2nd and 3rd hits of the AAA work, or is Falco's grab not fast enough for that? (Or is there enough time to spotdodge or shield or something, if you got hit with the first two?)

you may be thinking about normal Samus, you can Jab her back in between her first and 2nd Jab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8
so sad

 

[8AngeL8]

Zamus' jab combo is really fast, I doubt you could shield grab the first one.

 

[Denzi]

Falco

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Pros:

• Can gimp Falco's recovery.
• Can partially D-Smash Chain Falco (<44% w/ DI, <87% w/o DI)

Cons:

• Falco's stage control will make it difficult for you to approach.
• Falco can gimp ZSS's recovery.
• Falco can chaingrab ZSS at low percents (< ~30%)
• Falco's reflector will minimize the advantage of suitpieces.

Final Verdict: 3:7​

Matchup Advice:

• Game Plan:
  Try your best to get Falco off the stage and force him into repeated edgeguard or gimp attempts.
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  Falco's reflector is probably the most difficult reflector to deal with. It reflects for the entire duration of the move, both out and back in, and its hitbox's range is just barely under that of our Side-B range. This means that ZSS's primary alternate attack while holding a suitpiece is very difficult to properly space. In order to still maximize the suitpiece advantage, mix-up your suitpiece game with Falco's reflector in mind. When glide-tossing at a Falco, throw up or down instead of forward; many Falco players will reflect on instinct, so dodge the incoming hitbox. Then, punish accordingly with a D-Smash, grab, or other attack.
  
  
• Long Range:
  At a long distance, Falco will cover most of the stage with constant lasers. In order to approach a Falco at long range, you will have to crawl towards him or jump over them. Both of these methods have flaws. When crawling towards a Falco, you are limited to D-Tilts and shield. When jumping, you have no downward facing hitbox to challenge Falco's approach.
  
  
• Medium Range:
  At this range, you'll probably be crawling, in the air, or in your shield. When in the air, be careful what you come down with. If you come down with a Side-B, watch for the lasers that may interrupt you. If you come in with an aerial, it's likely you'll get shield grabbed (which at low percents can be deadly). When you are crawling at this range, watch for two things, boostsmashes and reflectors. Both of these options can be shieldgrabbed. If Falco goes to the air while you are crawling, you should expect a D-Air. You should be able to U-Tilt or Jab out of shield. If you are shielding Falco's lasers, watch out for boostsmashes and dashgrabs. Both of these options can be spotdodge/rolled, but it may be difficult to time properly. If you manage it, punish with a U-Tilt or Jab.
  
  
• Close Range:
  It's rather difficult to get close to Falco without having had a confrontation already, but just like most matchups, Falco can shield pressure better than you can respond. Stick to high-speed, low-lag attacks: Jab and D-Tilt. The biggest problem with this matchup is that retreating out of close range isn't your best option. You will have to handle Falco's shield pressure with ZSS's normal handicaps, out-of-shield U-Tilt, Jabs, etc.
  
  
• In the air:
  As usual, ZSS's lack of downward facing hitboxes is a problem, however, Falco doesn't have an amazing U-Air, which minimizes the weakness. Falco's D-Air can be out-prioritized by ZSS's U-Air, but it's a tricky timing and must be well spaced or you will trade hits. When hit by N-Air or F-Air, SDI away to avoid the last hit. Otherwise, you should have a slight advantage in the air.
  
  
• When Falco is Recovering:
  Falco really only has one option when recovering, Phantasm. Falco puts himself in an extremely dangerous situation when trying to recover with Firebird: it's slow, easily edgehogged, and easily countered. If Falco is trying to Firebird from below the stage (which is usually the only time Falco should) fall next to him and B-Air him into the stage.
  
  As for Phantasm, there are multiple angles to consider. When Falco is coming back to the edge from far away, he's either going to sweetspot the edge or plan on landing on the stage just above it. If you can properly predict him sweetspotting the edge, edgehog quickly for the kill. If he's planning on landing just above, you can wait for him and D-Smash his landing. If you don't want to predict his choice, you can attempt to interrupt the Phastasm with a B-Air (which is risky but highly rewarding). However, it's less risky to B-Air the Falco before he even starts the Phantasm.
  
  
• When ZSS is Recovering:
  There are two options that Falco has to gimp ZSS. He can properly predict her aerial path and spike her with D-Air (must be above the stage), or he can stagespike you with the B-Air which is made easy by the set-path of ZSS's tether. Be careful of recovering high with Flipjump, since it's very easily spiked. Also be careful of stalling on the ledge with your tether, since Falco can easily drop down with a B-Air and stagespike you (since B-Air's hitbox lasts so long). Try to mix-up your recovery when recovering from below, or recover so high that Falco can't reach you with his aerials.
  
  
• Matchup Unique Information:
  Falco's chaingrab can be escaped at >30% by flipjumping immediately out of hit-stun. Before 30%, Falco will be able to walking chaingrab you.
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Brinstar - The fallthrough stage helps make it dangerous for Falco's Phantasm, his only option for recovery. It also doesn't have a stage to spike with, so he can't gimp your tether with B-Air. The close quarters help lower his ability to laser and the lava helps bring the fight into the air, where the fight is more balanced.
  • Frigate Orpheon - Again, small quarters means less laser game. The lack of edge on the right side also helps to remove his choices for recovery, forcing him to Firebird. However, this should be considered a double-edged sword since getting spiked off the right side means death.
• Stages to Avoid:
  • Stages with wide spaces (Final Destination, Jungle Japes, etc.)

Taken from the ZSS match-up thread. Hope it helps.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Wow.... a lot of new posts thanks guys.

#1 TY a lot Denzi! That really helps! I didn't think of the match up sticky.

#2 There are to combo's in Brawl. Wavedash freaks (I use WD too so don't get deffensive) get mad since they believe combo's are only in Melee.

#3 I was not miss using the words combo and mind game.... wait mind game is two words...... owell. -_-

#4 The tourney was hosted at the main branch Library. Oh, I would agree the rules where gay. I argued with the guy in charge. He said if one person picks a strong match up the foe will pick a counter and on and on.

#5 How can you camp with Falco against lasers? She freakin crawled under them.

#6 I did use SHDL and SHL. lol

uhhhhhhhh.... I think I got every body. Sorry if I didn't answer someone. -_-

 

[J4pu]

Define the word combo in a smash context without looking elsewhere for a definition.

Your use of the word(s) mindgames is just silly, people don't normally use that in a serious context, it does technically have the meaning of having variation and tricking your opponent into an unwanted situation but it is not normally used in a serious manner as you used it. Denzi's sig is a good representation of how the term is normally used.

It really isn't that you are misunderstanding the meaning of the words so much as you are using them out of the context that they are normally used in. AAA combo was the only time I didn't cringe because that is used commonly.

The best way I can think to describe it is like using the slang you would hear in the ghettos of LA when hanging out with some respectable people in Britain, while it isn't being used wrong, it doesn't belong in that situation.

and what does WD have to do with combos? That's like saying "there are too combos, you JC shine people."
while it can help combo in certain situations it doesn't really make sense.

 

[Donkey Bong]

you can shield grab Zamus out of the 3rd hit of the AAA combo

and if she crawls under lasers then use your reflector. or phantasm. or aim a ftilt downwards

 

[saviorslegacy]

Define the word combo in a smash context without looking elsewhere for a definition.

Your use of the word(s) mindgames is just silly, people don't normally use that in a serious context, it does technically have the meaning of having variation and tricking your opponent into an unwanted situation but it is not normally used in a serious manner as you used it. Denzi's sig is a good representation of how the term is normally used.

It really isn't that you are misunderstanding the meaning of the words so much as you are using them out of the context that they are normally used in. AAA combo was the only time I didn't cringe because that is used commonly.

The best way I can think to describe it is like using the slang you would hear in the ghettos of LA when hanging out with some respectable people in Britain, while it isn't being used wrong, it doesn't belong in that situation.

and what does WD have to do with combos? That's like saying "there are too combos, you JC shine people."
while it can help combo in certain situations it doesn't really make sense.

So then how would you describe a "combo" in this situation?

 

[J4pu]

Combo is an inescapable string of attacks.
In smash for this to occur, any attacks following the first must make contact before hitstun wears off. A reason melee enthusiasts (or wave dash freaks as you call them) dislike brawl, is because of it's strange hitstun mechanics: there is "soft" and "hard" hitstun, and only attacks that make contacts during "hard" hitstun can be considered combos now since you can use an aerial or an AD out of "soft" hitstun.

Anyway in brawl combos are just not such a large part of the actual game (other than CG), so when you say things like "I have to get in close to do my combos" it just sounds strange, it would sound better if you expressed this without "combo" like you need to get in close to do pressure ZSS well but her spacing was too good with her attacks that outrange your to make this possible.

As I said before, you technically used the words correctly but they just aren't normally used in that context.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Combo is an inescapable string of attacks.
In smash for this to occur, any attacks following the first must make contact before hitstun wears off. A reason melee enthusiasts (or wave dash freaks as you call them) dislike brawl, is because of it's strange hitstun mechanics: there is "soft" and "hard" hitstun, and only attacks that make contacts during "hard" hitstun can be considered combos now since you can use an aerial or an AD out of "soft" hitstun.

Anyway in brawl combos are just not such a large part of the actual game (other than CG), so when you say things like "I have to get in close to do my combos" it just sounds strange, it would sound better if you expressed this without "combo" like you need to get in close to do pressure ZSS well but her spacing was too good with her attacks that outrange your to make this possible.

As I said before, you technically used the words correctly but they just aren't normally used in that context.

I get what you are saying. Could you call it a string then?

 

[XxBlackxX]

I get what you are saying. Could you call it a string then?

yea. what i do when i need to say combo in brawl is to put " " around it. like "combo". lol.

 

[saviorslegacy]

lol kk

Can't wait till I get to enter a big tourney. Instead of a stupid local one. -_-

ps I live in a small city so yeah.... not a lot of good people. :/

 

[J4pu]

I get what you are saying. Could you call it a string then?

yes i believe attack string would work much better.

 

[saviorslegacy]

yes i believe attack string would work much better.

K I'll call it that then.