ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[clowsui]

Okay, so if you've played ZSS for even a little amount of time, you'll notice that ZSS is a "reset" based character. Characters of this archetype rely not on extremely long combos or massive damage hits but successive placement of the opponent into disadvantageous scenarios that have high damage potential with proper prediction, follow-up, or both. The following characteristics of ZSS put her into this category:

1. ZSS does not hit like a truck but does best when stringing opponents. Uair, Dash Attack, Dair, Dtilt and Nair are great stringing moves. Side B/Down Smash/Paralyzer/Dtilt (at low %s) are good initiators (generally).

2. During these strings, the opponent is consistently placed in awkward/disadvantageous positions. However, these positions can be escaped with proper reaction/prediction. This leads to the third point.

3. She doesn't really have strong ways to continuously keep the opponent in a defensive position without prediction and/or specific (though numerous) situations - i.e., setups.

Given that ZSS is a reset character, a good ZSS player should seek to have a vast repertoire of combos (so as to maximize damage every time a string is initiated, given facts 1+3), and also to have a large number of setups so as to be able to consistently control the opponent's behavior.

As such, thread is therefore meant to be used as a resource for ZSS players to discover, list, and discuss the numerous combos/setups that ZSS has. Every 1-3 months I will gather the "bread and butter" stuff (BnBs as determined by me + the community of ZSS players) and also compile newer or more specific information in the second post of this thread.

Happy findings, everyone! Let's whip everyone into shape

 

[clowsui]

Reserved for stuff.

 

[Translucent]

D-SMASH INTO ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!

I also really like Dair into other aerials, sometimes into an Up-smash. Nair is very good, and at lower percents can lead up into another move.

 

[clowsui]

Dtilt at low percents is fun.
Dair chains into different aerials based on their DI
My favorite reset is probably side b'ing, predicting DI toward, and following their landing into a dsmash.

 

[Translucent]

I think Dsmash is the move that defines ZSS, and a ton of her gameplan. If you get a hit with it, you can do so much with it and choose what situation to put your opponent in.

Plus, it's awesome to Dsmash someone who is trying to recover then fsmsh FTW!

 

[clowsui]

Kinda. I think dsmash's low range and high startup make it difficult to implement sometimes

 

[standardtoaster]

don't forget that people can reduce the time they're in paralyze by mashing now

 

[Translucent]

Really toaster? Do you know how much they can reduce it by?

 

[standardtoaster]

i think it's like grab mashing

 

[G13_Flux]

she can use up b to set up for a tech chase pretty well. sets up for grabs, jab resets, side bs, and fsmashes.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Nair is just simply amazing.

 

[ph00tbag]

I agree with ringworm. Nair's capacity for extending strings is understated in the OP.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Plus it's just so safe. It can cover so many options.

 

[Dubforce]

I agree with ringworm. Nair's capacity for extending strings is understated in the OP.

Forizzle.

Her best combo moves IMO are Dtilt, Dair, Uair, Nair in that order. Fair is okay as well but at high %s knocks them out of combos. SHFFLd nair is too good. Sometimes I fair them out of a combo and use down b to get over to them and start a up-b > side-b tech chase. If it works out then you get a free dair. A perfect combo for me with ZSS looks like this atm:

diar > uair > nair > nair > fair > side-b over to them > up-b > tech-chase with side-b > dair > read-DI and kill with either Uair or bair.

I've only pulled this off twice but both times it was a 0 > death. ZSS too good.

Also, sometimes I just SHFFL nair the whole match. Why not?

 

[clowsui]

I haven't experimented enough w nair lol so tell me more!

Do different parts of the nair do different things? And do different timings of the nair affect combo/KB?

 

[Dubforce]

Yeah. The back hitbox of nair seems to combo into itself a LOT easier than the front, but that might be my personal style of movement or something holding me back in relation to that front hitbox.

Nair combos into itself pretty much all the time and can also be a good kill move. More than once I've knocked an enemy offstage with fair and then gone out Nair > kill and then sideb back to the stage.

 

[Translucent]

Nair seems similar to Marth's

It's very quick and has medium range on both sides of her.

 

[BlueXenon]

Are there any videos of a good zss? I learn best by watching videos because I get bored from training mode and playing cpu's.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txz11-2FfFs&feature=youtu.be&t=4m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfSbaTjewt4&feature=youtu.be&t=2m45s

 

[BlueXenon]

Thankyou..

 

[DrinkingFood]

Actually seems like all of nair has the same knockback, idk for sure about tipper though, or if it even has a tipper.
reverse nair comboing better is just because you're often moving forward as you pass them up to hit with it, so they're further back when they get hit and don't fly as far in front of you, keeping them closer and easier to combo
but yeah nair is amazing. What's that? Too close to hit with dash->SH->nair, but need the momentum to follow up after? No matter! Reverse nair does the exact same thing and can hit when front-nair can't!

 

[clowsui]

watched Sethlon, convinced that Nair is awesome. Worse at higher percents I think, and better on aerial opponents. I think we should start thinking about setups that are viable on a higher percent opponent because ZSS loses a lot of her kill combo potential as percents grow higher

 

[ph00tbag]

Nair has a unique property where if you start the move with ZSS facing the opponent, then cross them up before the move hits, it still hits them forward relative to ZSS. It's a property that carried over from Brawl, and it's related to the way Brawl handles articles.

It's a similar question to how nair never decays in terms of damage.

 

[clowsui]

Nair never decaying is AMAZING. That means that no matter how you use it it will have set KB/set hitstun which is so so so good imo

 

[Translucent]

Wow, do other characters have moves that don't decay also?

 

[ph00tbag]

There might be some, but I don't recall.

 

[clowsui]

Iirc DK cargo didn't decay in vBrawl

 

[BigJ]

Hello all, this may have been covered already, but whats up with her down B? There have been moments where I've used it and she would flip out of it like her old down B. I can't seem to figure out how it works at all. Also, Nair is godlike... That is all..

 

[Wavebuster]

Nair never decaying is AMAZING. That means that no matter how you use it it will have set KB/set hitstun which is so so so good imo

Damage decay is of very little consequence in Melee/P:M, if you've even seen an instance of someone's recovery (say, Sheik's) being edgeguarded over and over by the same attack until they eventually just die from the damage.

 

[clowsui]

Disagree. For example at the highest level for melee falco stale count of dair and/or shine are highly significant

 

[Dubforce]

Sethlon 2 good. I wonder if hes going to main her. I'm definitely open to the idea herself. I'm not sure whether its going to be ZSS or squirtle, but right now they are the only characters I have my eye on.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hello all, this may have been covered already, but whats up with her down B? There have been moments where I've used it and she would flip out of it like her old down B. I can't seem to figure out how it works at all. Also, Nair is godlike... That is all..

Her old down-b animation is now her new flipstool technique. It's activated by pressing B during down-b animation while in footstool range. it makes grounded opponents trip.

 

[Dante']

I haven't had that much time to play match with ZSS, so take this lightly.
For kill combos at high percents, I found side b and d-air set up nicely for a b-air kill at around 110-130% on fast fallers. This works out well because b-air starts killing around the same %. On normal and floaty characters, I normally just get kills from well spaced f-smashes and b-airs.
On a different note, I think her platform pressure is exceptional. I find that a lot of her moves (n-air, up-air, up throw) frequently leave her opponents on platforms, and she is very well equipped to capitalize on this. her up-air is great and up b has crazy range, but up-smash takes the cake for me. It is active for a long amount of time, and its hitbox is very wide. It seems to cover around 3/4 of battlefield's lower platforms, and almost all of pokemon stadium's.

 

[Wavebuster]

Disagree. For example at the highest level for melee falco stale count of dair and/or shine are highly significant

Even though I know what this is about, I still can't agree with "highly significant" when Falco is just one character of many who otherwise don't bother paying attention to this. In Brawl, damage staling really changed up your viable movepool for every character in the game due to how much it affected KOs and even combo moves.

 

[Snips]

I think that Utilt deserves an honorable mention for its ability to create juggles directly above ZSS, which opens up some deadly possibilities. I haven't had much time to play around with it, but it seems like it should be able to chain into itself (% and character dependent of course), but more importantly, set up Nair strings, Uair follow-ups, Up-B resets, and- my personal favorite- Chun-Li-esque Dair staircases. I'm certainly going to look into it further because it seems well suited for reliable Up-B resets/tech-chases which are mad cool.

 

[thespymachine]

"Reset character." Never thought about that description. "Flow chart" came to mind.

Do A -> Does opponent do Option 1 or 2 -> 2 -> Do B -> Does opponent do Option 1, 2, or 3 -> 1 -> Downsmash -> Fsmash

*shrug*

Love it though!

 

[SillyGoose]

Dis my character

 

[ph00tbag]

Damage decay is of very little consequence in Melee/P:M, if you've even seen an instance of someone's recovery (say, Sheik's) being edgeguarded over and over by the same attack until they eventually just die from the damage.

I think you underestimate the impact of being able to guarantee that three hits of the same move in a row will always do 30% damage. This is something that will likely happen often with ZSS.

 

[clowsui]

"Reset character." Never thought about that description. "Flow chart" came to mind.

Do A -> Does opponent do Option 1 or 2 -> 2 -> Do B -> Does opponent do Option 1, 2, or 3 -> 1 -> Downsmash -> Fsmash

*shrug*

Love it though!

I dunno I think I might be biased towards a reset based playstyle because already from just playing on my own there's a TON of stuff that's escapable w/ ZSS' combos based on DI + move choice + percentage of opponent. And it's not like ZSS's combos are especially fast or cause the opponent to be helpless or anything IMO (like not Fox/Falco/Marth stupid, lol), so I think the metagame direction for ZSS should be centered on this long term, more solid approach.

As a side note, this is also kind of why I don't like Sethlon's playstyle as much as others might. He's definitely done a lot with the character + has a lot of great strings/combos but I just don't think that in the long run camping for combos/strictly baiting-based strategies are effective for ZSS. All IMO of course. In the event that discussion becomes directed towards this idea of ZSS I will change the title to "ZSS Metagame Thread" to make it less misleading.

This answer went in a few directions but I hope it will bring out some discussion and prove interesting.

 

[Wavebuster]

I think you underestimate the impact of being able to guarantee that three hits of the same move in a row will always do 30% damage. This is something that will likely happen often with ZSS.

Even in vBrawl, this "advantage" worked both ways. Nair never staled, but it never refreshed other moves, either. This is still the case.

It's certainly not enough of an effect to change how I consider using her aerials, since using Dair/Uair 3x in a row is far more consistent than multiple Nairs due to the launch angles. They're also more conducive to getting a different attack out to end the string for the same reason, ultimately coming ahead in damage/kill potential if you land a finisher to the string.