ZSS Frame Data

[Zero]

Most characters have arcing hitboxes rather than the points that ZSS had. I don't think the small body invincibility is that useful for that reason.

 

[Nefarious B]

So I've been wondering side b and nB's advantage on shield for a while. Looking at SFP's guide that has side b's start and end data I can atleast figure that out, although the guide lack's nB data.

So:

Hitboxes out on frames: 24, 33 (total frames 43)

This thread says that ZSS gains 12 frames of lag for hitting a shield while the opponent has 1 frame of shield lag. I know from experience that only the second hitbox gives ZSS those extra frames.

So it would seem that the first hitbox has -19 or -20 advantage, depending on whether the 1 frame of shield stun is applied.

The second hit should have -21 advantage on shield.

I'm not sure if anyone has the ability to figure out nB but I'd love to know

 

[Kinzer]

Usmash has no data on it. First initial hitbox would be great

We have no specials data. For specials I'd like to know:

-up b's start and end data. It has a fast initial hitbox around her waist that will hit grounded opponents who are close to her, I'd like to know how fast it comes out specifically
-side b's advantage on shield, both the close and tipper hitbox.
-nB's start and end data, as well as its advantage on shield. It will obviously depend on the distance away from the opponent. If it's possible knowing what the frame advantage is at both point blank range as well as at her dtilt range, that'd be awesome

I'd also appreciate you double checking her aerial advantages on shield (land canceled bair/uair/nair as well as the second hit of fair's best advantage on shield), as well as dtilt/ftilt advantage

Thank you, ill check this to answer questions or you can PM me

I'll try to answer this in chronological order. Public too, since this might interest more than one person.

Up Smash data was missing entirely.

Seven hits total.

This assume that USmash was uncharged. First hitbox is on frame 8, in front of Zero Suit Samus. Deadzone on frame 9. Frame 10 is the second hit, 45° above and in front of her. Deadzone on frames 11-12. Frame 13 is the third hit, above her from this point on (I tested this on Bowser BTW. Then I had to use platforms, whee.). Deadzone on frames 14-15. Frame 16 is the fourth hit. Frames 17-18 are deadzones. Frame 19 is the fifth hit. Frames 20-21 are deadzones. Frame 22 is the sixth hitbox. Deadzone from frames 23-27 Frame 28 is the seventh and final hitbox. Frames 29-45 are all cooldown lag.

Start-up lag is frames 1-4. Zero Suit Samus takes 3 frames before the first hitbox becomes active from release.

The first hit does 4%, the next five hits deal 1%, and the final hits for 3% damage fresh, totaling up to 12% damage uncharged. 17% damage charged fresh if all hits connect. Don't ask me about the individual hits, display % is a funny thing and it makes it looks some of the hits from 2-6 do 2% damage when in fact they deal only 1% if certain parts of USmash don't hit.

Due to the nature of Up Smash, I only gathered shieldstun dis/advantages of a select few hits.

32 frame disadvantage if only the first hit connects. No difference charged or uncharged.
27 frame disadvantage if the second hit connects and nothing more. No difference charged or uncharged.
12 frame disadvantage on the last hit uncharged. 13 frame disadvantage on the last hit charged (crazy I know, but you gotta believe me on this).

I won't bother getting the other stuff rPSI covered. That's too much for the ley-man to bother, and that goes double for myself.

Special data was missing.

Up-B has 4 hitboxes in total. Frames 1-5 are star-up. First hitbox is frame 6, around her waist. Deadzone on frames 7-12. Second hitbox is frames 13-15, 45° above and in front of her. Frame 16 is a deadzone. Frame 17-19 is the third hitbox. Frames 20-22 are a deadzone. Frames 23-25 are the fourth and final hitbox. Frames 26-43 are cooldown lag.

First hit does 2%. Second hit does 4%. Third hit does 3%. Final hit does 6% damage. 15% damage in total all hits fresh.

24 frame disadvantage if the first/second hit connects on a shield.
18 frame disadvantage if the third hit connects on a shield.
15 frame disadvantage if the last hit connects on a shield.

Though I'm sure this data is the least of your concerns. You would like to know the dis/advantage Zero Suit Samus gets on hit, right?

Make another request for me after this post if you're curious. There's a lot of variables to test, like character, platform height, hitbox height, damage, I'm sure you get the gist of it. Too much to go over now and probably deserves its own section elsewhere.

Side-B:

9 frame disadvantage on shield from up close.
4 frame disadvantage on shield from a far.

Are you sure that's all you want or need to know? Nothing like how the first hitbox is from frame 24-25 and everything before that is all start-up? Or that ignoring the deadzone space that there is a deadzone in time from frame 26 up to frame 32 for the second hitbox? Or that the second hitbox is from frame 33-35? Or that the cooldown lag is from frame 36 to frame 43?

Eh, okay...

Neutral B:

Only has two states of charge. First the weak shot.

Frames 1-20 are start-up. Hits on frame 21 at point blank. Frame 42 at max range; otherwise it has a hitbox from frame 21-42. That's 22 whole frames of a hitbox. Zero Suit Samus can act on frame 39.

4 frame disadvantage on block at point blank.
0 frame advantage at max dtilt range, give or take 1 frame for spacing and shield health... maybe more...

Charged shot.

Frames 1-40 are start-up. Hits on frame 41 at point blank. Frame 83 at max range; otherwise it has a hitbox from frame 41-83. That's 42 whole frames of a Hitbox. Zero Suit Samus can act on frame 60.

3 frame disadvantage on block at point blank.
5 frame advantage at max dtilt range, give or take 1 frame for spacing and shield health... maybe more... don't forget shield pushback, 'cause I know what you're thinking...

More shieldstun frame data:

DTilt has 8 frames of disadvantage.

FTilt has 10 frame of disadvantage.

Uair has 1 frame of advantage.

Bair has 2 frames of advantage.

Nair has 5 frames of disadvantage.

2nd hit Fair has 6 frames of disadvantage.

That's it I guess. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance, or if my numbers were off!

 

[Nefarious B]

So... I'm guessing you must be giving advantage after shield drop? These numbers don't look correct. Like we all know uair doesn't have advantage on shield otherwise it'd be stupid, I'm assuming you mean we have 1 frame of advantage after they drop shield, which would make it actually -6 on shield. Or like how we know dtilt isn't actually -8 on shield otherwise it'd be safer than MK's dtilt, which it obviously isn't, so I'm assuming you meant -15?

Some clarification on how you're presenting the data would be appreciated, but yeah this has given me ideas for a couple other requests once we have this one figured out.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't know what else to tell you.

I just tested it and got the numbers as if trying to attack the soonest the game would allow me after the hitbox made contact with the shield (and letting go of that button). If I can make it anymore clear, tell me, I'm trying my best to make sure anybody and everybody knows just how I got to my figures, and replicate the same numbers for accuracy/consistency/what have you.

I used another ZSS dummy for that 1-frame jab, and nothing's faster than that. Nothing's faster than an input fame, otherwise known as frame 0. A shield drop takes 7 frames which isn't accurate at all if the opponent can attack you sooner than that.

Though if it makes you feel anymore comfortable, I'm guessing you (may) be able to jump-cancel inbetween the time it takes for the shield to drop, shieldstun to wear off, and the frame-1 jab to come out. I wouldn't quote me on that though.

Then again, assuming it is possible, some characters take longer to go airborne when they jump, and even then you don't have an aerial that comes out on frame one. It may or may not take the same amount of time to jump-cancel aerial as opposed to just using a grounded attack OoS.

 

[Nefarious B]

Well, like for an example here's what I could say based on your data. If I uair an opponent's shield, I can begin to jab their shield before they can begin to do anything. All they could do is hold shield. If they tried to spotdodge at the soonest possible frame after my uair hit their shield, they would be hit out of the 1 frame startup of their spotdodge. If they tried to shield grab my uair, I could hit his shield before the shield grab startup even begins.

This also says that nB, even at point blank range, is 100% unpunishable, because we could nB then down b away with our frame one invincibility before they could do anything, even shield grab. It's easy to tell that this is not correct from playing the character.

The thing is your numbers make sense if I add 7 frames to all of them, which is why I assumed you were giving advantage after shield drop. Like for uncharged nB for example:

Frames 1-20 are start-up. Hits on frame 21 at point blank. Frame 42 at max range; otherwise it has a hitbox from frame 21-42. That's 22 whole frames of a hitbox. Zero Suit Samus can act on frame 39.

4 frame disadvantage on block at point blank.
0 frame advantage at max dtilt range, give or take 1 frame for spacing and shield health... maybe more...

So at point blank, nB hits at frame 21, ZSS can act on frame 39. So that's -18, but you have to include the fact that nB has 7 frames of shield stun, so that's -11 on shield. If I add seven frames of shield drop, I arrive at your -4 number, which makes sense. But -4 on shield does not make sense.


ZSS jab OOS is 7 frames of shield drop and 1 frame startup. If you tested with that to find our advantages on shield then yes I believe I'm correct that you included that.

 

[Kinzer]

It isn't holding their shield though. The game isn't forcing the opponent to hold the shield. The instant I let go of the shield button, the game will go through the normal process of shieldstun, then shielddrop, and then whatever attack they buffered. At the same time, you/Zero Suit Samus go through hitlag, then the landing lag, and once that's done I found that the game would allow Zero Suit Samus to act sooner than her opponent by a certain amount.

Though I suppose it wouldn't hurt for me to look into it again, try a different method. Perhaps the jump-canceled stuff is what you're looking for/telling me and I'm missing it by a long-shot. I did not want to use my traditional method of using the shield with this project because my last couple of projects involving shieldstun were off as well as a colleague of mine pointed out to me, and I didn't want to get more inaccurate data with new/future projects I would take upon myself to fill out.

I wouldn't mind after I get some sleep.

 

[Nefarious B]

It should be simple enough if you are in frame advance. Here's a simple method:

1. Using the latest possible startup frame, attack a shield with each attack
2. As soon as the attack hits the shield, drop shield and buffer jab. Buffer a jab with ZSS as well
3. The difference between when the opponent ZSS can jab and the attack ZSS can jab is the shield drop advantage. Add 7 to that and you have the on shield advantage.

Edit:
ADVANTAGE FORMULA: SHIELDSTUN + HIT - SHIELDHITLAG - END (or IASA)

 

[Nefarious B]

Here's some other stuff I think would be great to know, when you have time :

Item toss data, startup and duration

The number of frames that nB stuns for, both charges

The number of frames that dsmash stuns for. Since it changes based on %, how bout at 0%, 50%, and 100%

frame data for grab, as in, how long does it take for the hitbox take to extend fully, and whatever other interesting details you can think of

Thanks! It's great to have one of the smash researches actually willing to help

 

[Kinzer]

Here's some other stuff I think would be great to know, when you have time :

Item toss data, startup and duration

The number of frames that nB stuns for, both charges

The number of frames that dsmash stuns for. Since it changes based on %, how bout at 0%, 50%, and 100%

frame data for grab, as in, how long does it take for the hitbox take to extend fully, and whatever other interesting details you can think of

Thanks! It's great to have one of the smash researches actually willing to help

Alright.

Item toss, for those who aren't aware, depend on which direction, and how much goes into the toss.

I'll go over the list very briefly right now:

Forward toss (Light) [Ground]: 1-6 start-up. 7 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Forward toss (Heavy) [Ground]: 1-6 start-up. 7 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Forward toss (Light) [Aerial]: 1-6 start-up. 7 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Forward toss (Heavy) [Aerial]: 1-6 start-up. 7 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.

Backward toss (Light) [Ground]: 1-8 start-up. 9 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Backward toss (Heavy) [Ground]: 1-8 start-up. 9 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Backward toss (Light) [Aerial]: 1-8 start-up. 9 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Backward toss (Heavy) [Aerial]: 1-8 start-up. 9 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.

Overhead toss (Light) [Ground]: 1-10 start-up. 11 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Overhead toss (Heavy) [Ground]: 1-10 start-up, 11 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Overhead toss (Light) [Aerial]: 1-10 start-up. 11 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.
Overhead toss (Heavy) [Aerial]: 1-10 start-up, 11 is the first active hitbox. 20 frames in total.

Throwdown toss (Light) [Ground]: 1-5 start-up, 6 is the first active hitbox. 18 frames in total.
Throwdown toss (Heavy) [Ground]: 1-5 start-up, 6 is the first active hitbox. 18 frames in total.
Throwdown toss (Light) [Aerial]: 1-5 start-up, 6 is the first active hitbox. 18 frames in total.
Throwdown toss (Heavy) [Aerial]: 1-5 start-up, 6 is the first active hitbox. 18 frames in total.

Now how long the item has an active hitbox varies, from when it lands on the ground and is motionless, gets caught, what type of an item it is (a Fireflower has a longer hitbox because it floats will a suit piece is heavy and falls like a rock), hits something, etc. And if you didn't already see it, it's the same for every variant, the difference is in which direction.

21 frames for no charge of neutral B, 37 frames for full charge neutral B.

50 frames for DSmash @ 0%, 72 frames for DSmash @ 50%, and 80 frames for DSmash at 100%. No charge.

Finally, first let me tell you that Zero Suit loses her grab hitbox on frame 30. It's all cooldown after that. Graphically, it appears that the hitbox is at it's furthest on frame 23. This is standing grab BTW, if you want running or pivot grab let me know, and I'll see what I can do.

Oh BTW, for anything more concerning frame-data, I'm your go-to guy now. I've taken it upon myself to gather frame-data for more characters besides Sonic, Zero Suit is one of them since I just like her I suppose; and if I can't use that excuse, the Smash Lab has taken some steps toward revitalization/more member/project activity, so here I am!

... If you're looking for other things like PSA and hitbubbles, I think you're better off going to another researcher for that I'm afraid. I'm sorry! :X That's out of my knowledge/power right now.

I promise I'll check up on things moreoften here, and I'll respond much faster too!

 

[Nefarious B]

This is great, thanks a lot! For now I can't think of anything specific I'd want except the data for pivot grab and dash grab would be nice. Does anyone know if we actually have a deadzone on pivot grab btw? I'd assume we do but I can't remember ever seeing it deadzone.

 

[Dakpo]

how fast does up smash come out?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Up Smash comes out on frame 7 I'm pretty sure

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What is the startup for the initial sideB hitbox (the whippart)?

 

[Kinzer]

This is great, thanks a lot! For now I can't think of anything specific I'd want except the data for pivot grab and dash grab would be nice. Does anyone know if we actually have a deadzone on pivot grab btw? I'd assume we do but I can't remember ever seeing it deadzone.

Dash grab:

Frames 1-15 are start-up. First active hitbox is frame 16. Lasts until frame 29. As for when the hitbox looks like it's fully extended graphically... I'm going to say that's frame 23. Frames 30-84 are cooldown.

Pivot grab:

Frames 1-15 are start-up. First active hitbox is frame 16. Lasts until frame 29. As for when the hitbox is fully extended graphically... I'm going to say that's frame 23. Frames 30-84 are cooldown.

... Well look at that. Zero Suit's grabs are all the same in duration and things related...

As for the deadzones, I couldn't tell you anything you probably don't already know. Yes, there's no hitbox close to Zero Suit after the tip has fully extended itself.

how fast does up smash come out?

Up Smash comes out on frame 7 I'm pretty sure

Frame 8.

What is the startup for the initial sideB hitbox (the whippart)?

... Whippart? Do you mean the first hitbox that usually tries to send people into the second one? Let me get you both just in case I get them mixed up.

24 and 33 respectively.

Heh, lookie there. Half a month. I got faster.

 

[Dakpo]

Thanks, upsmash OoS kinda looks like a good option right now

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What is the earliest frame for downBs kick to come out?

 

[Nefarious B]

Thanks, upsmash OoS kinda looks like a good option right now

Agreed, it's pretty much what we should be using in place of a shieldgrab IMO. Everything that a shield grab would punish, usmash can, and even though usmash is pretty laggy, characters like marth that space around shield grabs would punish a normal whiffed shield grab or our whiffed usmash the same way. And it does 12 damage if it hits from that frontward hitbox which is pretty sexy

 

[Dakpo]

Agreed, it's pretty much what we should be using in place of a shieldgrab IMO. Everything that a shield grab would punish, usmash can, and even though usmash is pretty laggy, characters like marth that space around shield grabs would punish a normal whiffed shield grab or our whiffed usmash the same way. And it does 12 damage if it hits from that frontward hitbox which is pretty sexy

i really want to see the hit bubbles for it. I want to know if it touches the ground and if so how far out beside us does it reach

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

 

[fkacyan]

Not sure why you would usmash oos instead of utilting oos. Utilt comes out frame 3, and I dont think any character jump straight above you to dodge your oos options.

 

[Zero]

Shield drop is 7 frames and most likely you're not going to input it perfectly, so it's already more than 10 frames.

JC Usmash is about the same though, considering a 4 frame window to cancel the jump and an 8 frame usmash.

sigh we need a grab.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm fairly sure you can actually just utilt straight OOS. It has been a long time since I played, though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can just buffer utilt during the shielddrop frames.

 

[Nefarious B]

Not sure why you would usmash oos instead of utilting oos. Utilt comes out frame 3, and I dont think any character jump straight above you to dodge your oos options.

you have to drop shield, so utilt is frame 10, while usmash is frame 8 cause it jump cancels. They have almost identical horizontal range in front of us too. It'd be cool if we could compare its range to other characters' grab ranges just to understand how useful it actually would be, my gut tells me it's similar range to grabs like MK's or Falco's, probably not as long as Snake's.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nah utilt has maaaad range

 

[Zero]

I'm fairly sure you can actually just utilt straight OOS. It has been a long time since I played, though.

You can't, it'd be amazing if we could.

Nah utilt has maaaad range

It's not that good, dtilt is way better.

 

[Dakpo]

It'd be cool if we could compare its range to other characters' grab ranges just to understand how useful it actually would be, s.

Totally agree

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Usmash out of shield is really really good.