ZSS Frame Data

[Nefarious B]

DS is like, the best escape move in the game. You should never jab a marth

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

uair to downB.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You guys suck at spamming my PM box. >:V

I'm finally on spring break and will finally have free time.

 

[noradseven]

Thanks bro...can you post the active frames of f-smash I just want to point out something. Also when you PS what happens are you allowed to immediately frame drop or does it just reduce shield stun by X amount of frames

 

[rPSIvysaur]

When you PS there is no shieldstun IIRC.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Both, an early shield drop is 1 frame only. PS reduces/removes shield stun.

 

[noradseven]

When you PS there is no shieldstun IIRC.

Jesus why would they do this....didn't really matter shield stun is too low in brawl anyways so even if it did remove stun the effect would be the same. Ala PS = free punish.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Jesus why would they do this....didn't really matter shield stun is too low in brawl anyways so even if it did remove stun the effect would be the same. Ala PS = free punish.

First of all, no. It's talking about the shield hitlag, which is the part which BOTH people are in it. So that's about 6-8 frames on average. And no shield drop really.

PS = Free Punish though.

BTW: N-air, F-smash, D-air and U-air are finished

 

[Nefarious B]

Good work man. Can you explain what autocancel vs land cancel means?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Did you check the forward and backward hitbox for uair?

Srsly, uair and bair being 8 frames is depressing D:

 

[Nefarious B]

Good work man. Can you explain what autocancel vs land cancel means?

Still this

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I hate this frame data >: (

I think autocancel is if you hit it and land AFTER the move is over, and land cancel if you hit it perfectly fastfalled on the first frame possible etc.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Xonar has it right.

You'll rarely be AC anything as ZSS though, her land cancel is really good.

-8 Frames advantage is actually really good.

 

[ph00tbag]

First of all, no. It's talking about the shield hitlag, which is the part which BOTH people are in it. So that's about 6-8 frames on average. And no shield drop really.

That doesn't seem right. When I was doing my testing, there were some moves (fsmash) where the opponent could drop their shield before ZSS had exited hit-lag. I was under the impression hit-lag was always experience by the attacker whether they hit a shield or a hurtbox, but only by the attackee when they are hit by the move. Shieldlag seems to be lower that hitlag.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Xonar has it right.

You'll rarely be AC anything as ZSS though, her land cancel is really good.

-8 Frames advantage is actually really good.

-8 doesnt allow for downB and jab mindgames
give -5 sakurai D:

 

[Nefarious B]

Well since snake's grab is 8 frames if you LC uair you can always down b away

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

not if he does it frame perfect : D

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

double post for bump

1. would love to see this continued
2. dsmash > jab is not legit. he has 1 frame of grab armor, so if he buffers it perfectly youre ****ed. dsmash > downB is fine tho : P

 

[Zero]

Buffering out of shield? I didn't think you could do that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can do that. I've been grab armored on multiple occasions already : (

 

[zApollo]

His grab-armour is only 1 frame? I swear it seems longer.

Please continue this project...

 

[Nefarious B]

I messaged him and he seems set on not finishing it unfortunately. Knowing side b's date would be really useful, the rest is kinda extra.

Edit:

Buffering out of shield? I didn't think you could do that.

Well you're buffering out of shield stun, which on almost all of these moves is one frame, so they have 2 frames instead of 1 basically, if I'm understanding it correctly

 

[A2ZOMG]

If the frame advantage of uncharged D-smash is exactly -5, that means if you buffer Jab and your opponent buffers a 6 frame shieldgrab (which is like 2/3 of the cast), the grab will trade hits with the Jab and they'll take damage while grabbing you. So don't Jab after D-smash unless it's against that 1/3 of the cast, since that will make it EASIER for them to grab you if anything since it extends your hurtbox.

Just thought I would point out.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

double post for bump

1. would love to see this continued
2. dsmash > jab is not legit. he has 1 frame of grab armor, so if he buffers it perfectly youre ****ed. dsmash > downB is fine tho : P

Above poster is gay.

 

[Nefarious B]

Yes that is correct. The nice thing is you have a guaranteed down b escape off of dsmash. Dsmash>dtilt, if you spaced the dsmash well, is really safe against most characters because the foot from dtilt seems to get low enough to avoid most grabs

 

[Zero]

Um, a little bump.

What's the frame data on down B?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

All in good time, young one.

 

[Luxor]

Yeah, later. I might look for it in PSA right now, since I'm bored.

 

[Luxor]

Looked into it the other day and might as well post it now that I remembered:

Flip Jump frame data, w/o capitalization
duration 81 frames
invincible frames 1-13
a bunchload of bones invincible 13-44, so for most purposes you're invincible 1-44
I can't tell which frame is the first frame you can input a kick
kick hits frame 9 after input- spike strong hit 9-11, nonspike "weak" but really strong other hit 12-50
5 frames of landing lag
the kick has 31 frames of landing lag
kick lasts 61 frames

...Bam.

 

[Zero]

hooooooly ****.

 

[Luxor]

llllloooooooooooots oooooooooffffff iiiiiiiinnnnnnvvvvviiiinnnncccciiibbbbbiiiillllliiiitttttyyyy

 

[Nefarious B]

Too bad having most of your bones invincible doesn't cut it against MK's nair

 

[Luxor]

It might be all the bones, tomorrow I'll see exactly which ones.

 

[Dakpo]

....i wonder how we can put the Down B invincibility to actual use

 

[Zero]

Well there's a really good and little known application in recovering.

You can cancel your ledge-tether with a downB. If you predict someone trying to edgeguard you, you can downB immediately as you tether, using the invincibility to save yourself and possibly counter edgeguard your opponent.

Less useful application could be a spotdodge replacement, as it would start at frame 1, which is safe getaway for most moves and grabs, but doesn't leave you as vulnerable and stationary as a spotdodge.

 

[Nefarious B]

I want to see how useful dsmash to down b can be. Like, imagine, you dsmash DDD's shield, he attempts to shield grab, but you buffer a down b, invincible over his head and kick him in the end lag of the grab. Or dsmash a Snake, he drops shield and tries to ftilt you, but you're over his head kicking at him.

 

[Zero]

IMO never do that more than once in a few matches. If they predict that option then you're pretty gone. :S

ESPECIALLY against Snake/D3

But it's a good way to keep someone in shield and land a grab I guess.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'd probably try it at a percent where down b would kill, to make it worth the risk

 

[Dakpo]

ohh i see... this seems pretty useful. I doubt we could actually hit a good player with Down B after Down smash on shield

 

[Luxor]

Subaction Main0x1E0
@174C4

-----------|START|--------------------------
Body Collision - Collision State=0x2, 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x, 
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[24], 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=12.00x, 
Enable/Disable Ledgegrab - 0x1, 
Body Collision - Collision State=0x0, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0x20, Collision State=0x2, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0xB, Collision State=0x2, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0x3F, Collision State=0x2, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0x3B, Collision State=0x2, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0x3E, Collision State=0x2, 
Modify Bone Collision - Bone=0x3A, Collision State=0x2, 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=18.00x, 
Enable/Disable Ledgegrab - 0x2, 
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[19], 
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[20], 
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[23], 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=26.00x, 
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[22], 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=43.00x, 
Body Collision - Collision State=0x0, 
----------------------------|END|-----------

Bones
20 = head
B = hip
3F = right knee
3B = left knee
3E = right leg
3A = left leg

...the invincible ones during frames 13-44 of flip jump.