Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[Shaya]

The most simplest difference to make is how quickly you press attack/special again to kick, as the spike is attached to her heels and it's a 6 frame long hitbox (I'm not sure if the spike is too though).
Unless they're really close then I believe the smart thing to do is dash away b reverse flip jump (it may be dash away + jump). Nairo does it a lot.

Funnily enough I mess up when I want to go for the horizontal knockback by spiking quite often !_! [at the same time I'm doing this because I feel they would be able to dodge/avoid it if I didn't attack that quickly something something]

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I don't think I understand the discussed buffered uAir problematic at all. I jump with z and do my aerials (yes all of them) with the c stick and it's super ****ing easy. I get the swoosh sound too with rising SH uAir > second uAir too so I'm doing it right.
Why would anyone need double sticking for that?

 

[Shaya]

Because we don't all set a separate button to jump or the c-stick to attack [mostly the latter one]

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Because we don't all set a separate button to jump or the c-stick to attack [mostly the latter one]

>playing ZSS
>not setting c-stick to attack[collapse=Shiggedy Diggedy Hibbedy Doo]

[/collapse]
That said, Nairo plays with default. But I'm not changing my mind.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I actually had a discussion on reddit with VABengal about this. It's possible to get full benefits of double sticking and the Auto SH frame perfect UpAirs WITHOUT having the pesky tap jump on.

In my controller set up, I have TJ off, the left trigger set to jump, and the c-stick set to attack. As long as I press both the left trigger and up on the left stick and c-stick at the same time (mimicking the double -sticking tap jump input but with also pressing L), I automatically buffer the SH UAir, regardless of how long I hold the left trigger.

In addition, Tuen, I started using Z as "special" to get more consistent B-Reverses and Wave-Bounces with the Z+C-stick method you brought up a while back. I also am using A+B=>smash to help a little with the PP DSmashes that Shaya talked about(still hard as sh*t though). As it stands, my final controller set up is as follows:

Tap Jump: Off
A+B smash: On
L: Jump
Z: Special
X: Grab
C-Stick: Attack
Everything else is default.

I've gone through like 8 different iterations of it and I think this is FINALLY the optimal setup. I can't think of anything any of the other setups provide that this misses out on, and it's only problem is that it takes a couple hours to get used to the L-Jump Sticking and OoS UpBs and such.

OOOOOOH, that's cool!

That said, I keep X on shield so that it's a bit more accurate than the analog triggers. I discovered a way to make the R-special wavebounce work 9/10 times, so I'm good there too.

The A+B smash for pp dsmash sounds interesting though. I... have to be able to perfect pivot first. I get that to work less than 1/10 of the time. >.>. So, maybe another time.

Still, great input!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

OOOOOOH, that's cool!

That said, I keep X on shield so that it's a bit more accurate than the analog triggers. I discovered a way to make the R-special wavebounce work 9/10 times, so I'm good there too.

The A+B smash for pp dsmash sounds interesting though. I... have to be able to perfect pivot first. I get that to work less than 1/10 of the time. >.>. So, maybe another time.

Still, great input!

You got a good method for the trigger special wavebounce?
I get it right maybe 4/5 and it's ruining my thumb.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You got a good method for the trigger special wavebounce?
I get it right maybe 4/5 and it's ruining my thumb.

Ah, take this with a grain of salt, cause it might just be Tuen-Tendency specific. I have no real idea why this improves my efficiency. But, here we go:

I used to do this: hold right on the control stick, jump (still holding right), slam R+c-stick left at once (still holding right)

Now I do this: hold right on the control stick, jump (still holding right), release right, slam R+c-stick left+control stick right at once

I noticed that the double-stick imitation technique requires 3 simultaneous inputs (L, control stick up, c-stick up) and I was great at it. So, I tried it here. For reasons I can't really grasp, doing all 3 things at once (control stick right, c-stick left, R) nets me more consistency than 2 things at once (c-stick left, R).

My best guess why? The opposing directions on the control stick and c-stick help make this feel like a balanced motion and improves sync. Probably the best explanation: I'm weird.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Ah, take this with a grain of salt, cause it might just be Tuen-Tendency specific. I have no real idea why this improves my efficiency. But, here we go:

I used to do this: hold right on the control stick, jump (still holding right), slam R+c-stick left at once (still holding right)

Now I do this: hold right on the control stick, jump (still holding right), release right, slam R+c-stick left+control stick right at once

I noticed that the double-stick imitation technique requires 3 simultaneous inputs (L, control stick up, c-stick up) and I was great at it. So, I tried it here. For reasons I can't really grasp, doing all 3 things at once (control stick right, c-stick left, R) nets me more consistency than 2 things at once (c-stick left, R).

My best guess why? The opposing directions on the control stick and c-stick help make this feel like a balanced motion and improves sync. Probably the best explanation: I'm weird.

Thanks, maybe I won't need to cut off my finger after all. Gonna try it later.

 

[FUEGO!]

The most simplest difference to make is how quickly you press attack/special again to kick, as the spike is attached to her heels and it's a 6 frame long hitbox (I'm not sure if the spike is too though).
Unless they're really close then I believe the smart thing to do is dash away b reverse flip jump (it may be dash away + jump). Nairo does it a lot.

Funnily enough I mess up when I want to go for the horizontal knockback by spiking quite often !_! [at the same time I'm doing this because I feel they would be able to dodge/avoid it if I didn't attack that quickly something something]

Is he just doing that for style though? I could just flip jump forward and kick forward too, but if reversing it actually has benefits to how easy the spike-box lands, then so be it.

 

[David Viran]

Is he just doing that for style though? I could just flip jump forward and kick forward too, but if reversing it actually has benefits to how easy the spike-box lands, then so be it.

They can DI dsmash (which I don't know how many people do) or alot of the time you are just too close to flip jump straight out of dsmash. To get a spike at least. And it is run, jump, reverse flip jump.

 

[T-Loc]

I don't think I understand the discussed buffered uAir problematic at all. I jump with z and do my aerials (yes all of them) with the c stick and it's super ****ing easy. I get the swoosh sound too with rising SH uAir > second uAir too so I'm doing it right.
Why would anyone need double sticking for that?

The swoosh isn't quite good evidence that you're doing frame perfect UpAirs. I think a better test would be to see if you can OoS Rising SH UpAir a standing Falco, which is something that double sticking can do consistently. We're not saying that you can't do it manually, just that it requires MUCH less precision with double sticking, which can be a godsend in the heat of battle.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The swoosh isn't quite good evidence that you're doing frame perfect UpAirs. I think a better test would be to see if you can OoS Rising SH UpAir a standing Falco, which is something that double sticking can do consistently. We're not saying that you can't do it manually, just that it requires MUCH less precision with double sticking, which can be a godsend in the heat of battle.

I assure you that with z jump and tilt stick, this is a very easy thing to do.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ Dr. Tuen your version has the advantage that if you screw up, a nSpecial comes out instead of an sSpecial, but the distance is a tad smaller. The ****up rate seems to be the same though.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Can't you use Flip Jump once somebody attacks you and you run out of jumps? I was kind of "testing" her on FG yesterday, and I've died with 59% because I couldn't recover using it. She obviously has more recovery options, but I kinda got desperate on that time.
Also, can you Smash DI out of Boost Kick? If I can, what would be the right direction without screwing myself? Kind of a Anti-ZSS question, but since most of my mains are light weights and one of them is combo food, I find me having quite the difficulty against this move. Sorry if it was already asked.

 

[David Viran]

Can't you use Flip Jump once somebody attacks you and you run out of jumps? I was kind of "testing" her on FG yesterday, and I've died with 59% because I couldn't recover using it. She obviously has more recovery options, but I kinda got desperate on that time.
Also, can you Smash DI out of Boost Kick? If I can, what would be the right direction without screwing myself? Kind of a Anti-ZSS question, but since most of my mains are light weights and one of them is combo food, I find me having quite the difficulty against this move. Sorry if it was already asked.

Flip jump only refreshes when you grab the ledge or land. You can smash DI boostkick but it doesn't do much. Just do the mix up with DIing left or right most of the time.

 

[Trifroze]

Has anyone been utilizing Plasma Whip / side b? The nerf from brawl is pretty terrible sure, but it's still an extremely long range poke. What got my attention though was that characters like Mario or anyone who's either slow or doesn't have a forward boosting dash attack or dash grab can't punish it on shield from around max range (most don't come even close). I used to think that it's better to just go for a grab instead but now I don't know. The custom side b 3 that everyone probably favors in a customs on metagame is of course better since it does the same damage and is less punishable by several frames (although it comes out a bit slower) plus it guarantees a follow-up, but the default shouldn't be shaken off either.

 

[David Viran]

@ Shaya has been talking about uses for plasma whip like against kirby and ness.

 

[Trifroze]

@ Shaya has been talking about uses for plasma whip like against kirby and ness.

Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Ness, Villager and a bunch of others (and just for the sake of saying no to crouch shenanigans Kirby, G&W and Jigglypuff) definitely can't do anything about this. This is one of those moves that I really wish received a damage buff or endlag reduction, would be sweet if this killed at least somewhere around 150% or less with rage. It probably would if they buffed the last hit from 6% to 8-10%.

EDIT: Forgot Pikachu has a thing called QA, replace him with Diddy then I guess.

 

[David Viran]

Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Ness, Villager and a bunch of others (and just for the sake of saying no to crouch shenanigans Kirby, G&W and Jigglypuff) definitely can't do anything about this. This is one of those moves that I really wish received a damage buff or endlag reduction, would be sweet if this killed at least somewhere around 150% or less with rage. It probably would if they buffed the last hit from 6% to 8-10%.

Yeah Nintendo it's not like we're talking about bringing back brawl plasma whip that did 15% and had like no end lag.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah I've been semi-hyping side-b for a while.
Most of the cast cannot punish it well spaced on shield, as you noticed. However a forward roll on reaction if you are moving forward will cover it and be able to punish it hard enough.
But besides that, it's kinda golden and underutilized.
It's the move I keep coming back to as the "maybe I should've tried this instead".

I think as we develop around the fact that we're mid-range focused (dash attack punish and retreating short hops either from a dash forward or otherwise) we'll come to see how solid a tool side-b is for managing our less-than-fantastic sub-mid range options. Our dash option game needs to get better either way though, one way or another.

Also forward smash should start being utilized as our alternative punish over grab, slightly faster, great range, high damage, kills, well spaced can be hard to punish (if both hits tap shield spaced it's kinda NUP); however it whiffs many of the shorty-height characters which is so bull **** [the y pos of this needs to be buffed BADLY]. Obviously we can also charge it for covering dodges too. If you're standing in a position where your body will limit the roll distance a character can reach, the first strike is a roundhouse that can catch people on top of you/slightly behind.

 

[Trifroze]

Speaking of forward smash I've yet to figure out how the sweetspot with stronger knockback works on it. Sometimes it happens when the move is used extremely close and sometimes when it's used from max range. Back air is weird too, it's supposed to have a 10% sourspot when it's used close to the opponent but 90% of the time it either hits with the 12% hitbox or misses completely because most of the sourspot is actually just a deadzone.

No big deals but I wonder when they give ZSS the bugfix treatment they've been giving to a lot of characters now.

 

[Shaya]

Because she just so happened to be a pretty strong character before hand I guess.
Although her "faults" will probably become more pronounced as our opponent's figure her out.
She's definitely had some of the most work put to her in pre-release over everyone else though, that much is obvious (animations, models, etc).

She's one of very few characters who haven't been touched since the WiiU release.
Either they think she's fine / her power level is fine, so "BALANCE"
They don't think she's fine but they know she has "bug"-like issues so "BALANCE"
or they just haven't come around to looking at her again in the patch cycle; going by patterns they're looking at nearly half the cast at once for any given patch (it's likely 1 team working in two separate development cycles of 2 months overlapping or 2 teams with a 3 or so month cycle looking at nearly half the cast each).

The sweetspot for Forward Smash is her foot and her foot swings around close to her in the animation as she extends, allowing you to get it close to you.

 

[David Viran]

Speaking of bair I'm pretty sure it does decimal percent because if it has the freshness bonus it does 13%.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

To utilize parlance introduced by @ Shaya ... ZSS' crouch is definitely, the truth.

I've forced Sheik's nair, and some fairs (spacing dependent), to whiff by just... crouching. Mario's rising nair, Ness' rising fair, and some others have also missed due to this. Worth noting: her dtilt and her crawl are both shorter than her crouch. Her down tilt also shield pokes sometimes, and I've been getting it enough to warrant an investigation on what dtilt leads to.

I think part of what helps this works is the sheer difference in height from her standing to her crouching height. It's a big change in target.

Also an interesting bit. Some have called this "fuzzy guarding," but I don't know how well that matches up with the original FGC term. Crouch, wait for an attack that enters your standing height space, powershield instantly. This nets a few benefits:

• Lasting hitboxes hit the shield and "turn off" (depends on the move), this allows a response without fear for a trade
• Responses are obnoxiously fast for ZSS
• The actual act of powershielding is easier

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

To utilize parlance introduced by @ Shaya ... ZSS' crouch is definitely, the truth.

I've forced Sheik's nair, and some fairs (spacing dependent), to whiff by just... crouching. Mario's rising nair, Ness' rising fair, and some others have also missed due to this. Worth noting: her dtilt and her crawl are both shorter than her crouch. Her down tilt also shield pokes sometimes, and I've been getting it enough to warrant an investigation on what dtilt leads to.

I think part of what helps this works is the sheer difference in height from her standing to her crouching height. It's a big change in target.

Also an interesting bit. Some have called this "fuzzy guarding," but I don't know how well that matches up with the original FGC term. Crouch, wait for an attack that enters your standing height space, powershield instantly. This nets a few benefits:

• Lasting hitboxes hit the shield and "turn off" (depends on the move), this allows a response without fear for a trade
• Responses are obnoxiously fast for ZSS
• The actual act of powershielding is easier

I don't have any problems powershielding projectiles, but crouch PS might be pretty interesting for shutting down approaches.

 

[Shaya]

Crouching is definitely an amazing spacing tool (crouching into shield being a really simple way to reactively power shield many things, touted in many games, including brawl [if you want I can link you to a late Brawl essay on it in the context of marth, it's somewhere lol]). I've been drilling landing into a slight back crawl as a habit as it seems like a fast-ish transition. I've been hyping down tilt a little recently too because of it's angle, I think it's applicably setting up fairs, bairs, flip jumps and paralyzer.
It's still laggy though. And yeah it's the type of move that shield pokes as she's moving forward during hitbox animation and strikes very low, probably her most reliable shield poke move, although angled ftilts (usually upwards) tend to do the job too.

 

[Hydrosine]

How can i practice double up-air ??
I've never been able to do it.

 

[Shaya]

You can't get two up airs out in a short hop, but you can get the sound effect of the second up air if you buffer/time it well.

 

[Muffin!]

You got a good method for the trigger special wavebounce?
I get it right maybe 4/5 and it's ruining my thumb.

Can also mix in a RAR b-reverse for a similar effect. I use it a lot since I'm not terribly consistent with the wavebounce.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The thing about sideside b is that if you do land it, you don't get anything out of it. It never combos and it never kills. Speaking of side b, I have a question. Sometimes I'll hit my opponent with side b and they'll get knocked back and slide across the ground but they don't take damage. So what's going on there?

 

[Muffin!]

Yeah I think Side special is a very matchup dependent tool. It does give you instant stage control though, which isn't nothing. I'm also wondering about the no damage hits.

 

[Fluggerson]

I need a secondary to cover Zamus's bad matchups (SmallCharacters/Pikachu/Sheik). Small characters would be like Lucas, Toon Link, Kirby, etc.

I'm thinking of Mario or Sheik. Not sure though.

 

[iVoltage]

I need a secondary to cover Zamus's bad matchups (SmallCharacters/Pikachu/Sheik). Small characters would be like Lucas, Toon Link, Kirby, etc.

I'm thinking of Mario or Sheik. Not sure though.

Everyone has a pocket sheik

Anyway I'm actually buying this game for myself this weekend and I've decided on Zero Suit as my character of choice to stop being a casual scrublord. Is there any videos or anything that can help me get started on learning zss? I know what she does I just need to know how to do anything other than running around with spaghetti hanging out of my pocket and getting roflstomped.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Everyone has a pocket sheik

Anyway I'm actually buying this game for myself this weekend and I've decided on Zero Suit as my character of choice to stop being a casual scrublord. Is there any videos or anything that can help me get started on learning zss? I know what she does I just need to know how to do anything other than running around with spaghetti hanging out of my pocket and getting roflstomped.

You will find everything you need in this forum.
Take 5's videos are great, Delux' old videos too, mine is fine for percentages, everything Shaya and Tuen post is gold.

 

[pichuthedk]

D-tilting under shieks needles is going to be the future...Despite the fact that it works for only 1-3(or 4) needless =/.
What are some of the things you guys forced to whiff with down tilt? I can't remember all of them , However I am sure AF I down tilted under DK grounded up b for one thing and was like @.@?

 

[pichuthedk]

Yeah I've been semi-hyping side-b for a while.
Most of the cast cannot punish it well spaced on shield, as you noticed. However a forward roll on reaction if you are moving forward will cover it and be able to punish it hard enough.
But besides that, it's kinda golden and underutilized.
It's the move I keep coming back to as the "maybe I should've tried this instead".

I think as we develop around the fact that we're mid-range focused (dash attack punish and retreating short hops either from a dash forward or otherwise) we'll come to see how solid a tool side-b is for managing our less-than-fantastic sub-mid range options. Our dash option game needs to get better either way though, one way or another.

Also forward smash should start being utilized as our alternative punish over grab, slightly faster, great range, high damage, kills, well spaced can be hard to punish (if both hits tap shield spaced it's kinda NUP); however it whiffs many of the shorty-height characters which is so bull **** [the y pos of this needs to be buffed BADLY]. Obviously we can also charge it for covering dodges too. If you're standing in a position where your body will limit the roll distance a character can reach, the first strike is a roundhouse that can catch people on top of you/slightly behind.

In terms of the side b I feel you I find myself "incorporating" or rather attempting to incorporate it into my long range game for characters/players that love to rush down.

So far as to even sh at them and wave bounce the side b so I retreat as far back as possible with the explosion hitting them just before I move out of range.

There is something I want to tinker with and see if it has any use, when you dash and turn around as your skidding you can side b to do a sliding plasma whip.

Kind of wondering if we can use those in the situations where instead of risking a run through pivot grab, you do a run through turn around skidding side b aiming to hit the explosion hitbox on their shield before you continue sliding out of range.


I also have a question since I'm about to swallow my pride and say goodbye to smash stick, is it possible to PP uptilt and slide through people?

I would like to try some different grounded approaches and since pp Down tilt doesn't slide bit up tilt does...I am praying for some sort of hidden jank factor...Kami-Sama please?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

honestly the main issue with sideb is that... how often is it more useful than nb? ive gotten some gimps with the string but that's about it. i used to use it a lot when i wasnt used to smash4's b reversing yet but nowadays i dont really use it anymore. One thing it's definitely good for is rising sideB if someone short hop approaches at you. it's a lot better than zair in those scenarios

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Yeah I think Side special is a very matchup dependent tool. It does give you instant stage control though, which isn't nothing. I'm also wondering about the no damage hits.

So I did some testing in training mode, if only one of the middle hitboxes connects, then it only does two percent and knocks them back at a very horizontal angle. I'm starting to think it might be useful for edgeguarding because the middle hits have good knockback and they send so horizontal. It's not too difficult to get the last hit to miss. They just have to be right next to you and slightly above or below you.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I wonder if side B hits under the stage at all. Hmm, could be cool. Though the end lag might leave you unable to respond to your foe's getup options. Not that the off stage flip kick lover should be care... ha.

 

[Trifroze]

At the very least side b will forever be useful for reverse tether ledgegrabs and for buffering tether ledgegrab out of aerials.