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Zero Suit Samus Questions & Answers

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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Why is Falco such a nuisance.
It's not that he's a nuisance it's that most falco's like to play this game where they see either A how many lasers they can get you to eat before you get cancer and expire on the spot, B how much damage they can do to you via chain grab /reflecting suit pieces Or C where they see how many times they can kill you with a dacus where the upsmash sends you side-ways instead of upwards due to when/where his foot connects with your face.

Hey maybe thats just me being crazy...

But sometimes Falcos make me want to punch them in the face.
 
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DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Have you confirmed that in frame advance?

I asked SFP to do that one time and he said there wasn't a quantifiable distance iirc
 

Psalm

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Another thing that annoys me is when I do two jabs then get shieldgrabbed on the third, and I suck at landing and killing.
 

infiniteV115

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You shouldn't be using full jab against Falco..or most characters. Most characters can just hold shield and they'll shield the 3rd hit even if the first two hit them. And yes, if they shield the 3rd hit, they can shieldgrab it, no exceptions.
Marth can't do this but he can spam upB instead of shielding...in fact if you ever hit Marth with jab2 he gets a guaranteed upB on you..so don't jab him either

Exceptions to this (ie characters you CAN use full jab on) are Olimar, Pit, I think Toon Link and Lucario, and some others that I don't think are worth remembering. There's a list somewhere in the ZSS subforums with the people you can use the full jab combo on, but it's one of those things where instead of thinking "okay, I can jab combo the entire cast except for this char, that char...", you should be thinking "okay I can't jab combo anybody except for this char, that char..."
 
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1PokeMastr

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ZSS takes a couple more frames of hitstun for each laser.
For no reason.
Because this game sucks.

A fresh laser will always have 9 frames of hitstun on every character, I checked in frame advance myself.

Distance the laser hits you from doesn't matter, always 9 frames of stun, for everyone.
 

DeLux

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Yea, I was under the impression that any "variance" was purely cinematic.
 

Psalm

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A fresh laser will always have 9 frames of hitstun on every character, I checked in frame advance myself.

Distance the laser hits you from doesn't matter, always 9 frames of stun, for everyone.
The keyword here is "fresh" is there such thing as a stale laser? If so how many frames of hitstun are there?
 

DeLux

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Then why did people say for years that Mario, Samus, and ZSS took extra hitstun...
As far as I can tell, there's a purely cinematic difference when Samus gets hit by the laser that would lead one to believe the lasers are hitting "harder", thus fueling the diffusion of incorrect information?
 

Psalm

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Hey guys, any tips regarding the Ike matchup please?
The main problem very me was his SHFair, I counter with SHFF Fairs (because I like to challenge myself by landing Fairs for punishes). His jab is amazing but he can shield grab ours. Try jabbing once then observing what he does. His up b is loaded with super armor and most Ike mains I have played only ledge camp to calm down or to stall. I just stay a distance away and neutral b, but be wary because Ike/Marth mains love to jump onstage quickly with a counter. We should juggle with Uair, because he has 3 maybe 4 options. *Dair,Airdodge,Up B,neutral B* we can punish his up b landing of course. I forgot counter, but we should be using the max range of our Uair. I don't ever grab because we can eat a Fsmash to the face.
 

infiniteV115

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What I understand is that ZSS Samus and Mario get 4 frames of hitlag (not hitstun) whereas everybody else gets 2, but the hitstun is the same
 

Demna

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Good to know. Regarding that match (@ min 2:32), don't you think that x2 D-smash > Falling Upair is better than x1 D-smash > Falling Bair? Since the Upair is fresh and the Bair is staled.
 

infiniteV115

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Yeah. Even the best ZSSs make mistakes as simple as not capitalizing on dsmash punishes (yes even Salem). There's never really a reason to use 1 dsmash instead of 2 in singles, unless you're doing the dsmash lock, some sort of dsmash infinite, or the dsmash is so stale that dsmash --> sideB actually deals more damage (but I don't think it ever gets this stale in a real match)
 

Demna

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I've been noticing a lot of high/top level ZSSs using x1Dsmash > Falling Bair. I find it really weird since our punish game rotates around Dsmash and getting the most out of it. I personally almost never use x1Dsmash unless I'm certain that I can land a killing blow with Bair/Fair2/Upair/SideB afterwards.
 

NickRiddle

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If I'm unsure of the staleness of d-smash, or I don't check the opponent's % I will often do dsmash x1 so they don't fly away too early/late.
 

Psalm

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We need a thread on every possible Dsmash follow-up with the opponent on various percents. Not to mention we should add the damage it does. So that way we can get a big idea of what we should do aside from the standard "x2 dsmash > bair".

Maybe Salem will help, it would be something interesting.
 

NickRiddle

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You would have to consider stale moves, positioning, stage layout, and crouch cancelling.
There is absolutely no point. Crouch cancelling in itself would ruin the entire thread.
 

Psalm

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I didn't mean it as in ways to kill, but if we get a dsmash at x percent we can do y setup. That's what I meant but it would be very time consuming since there are 35 characters and 0-200% setups.

Noob confession : I thought crouch cancelling was only in Melee:
 

NickRiddle

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Okay, everything you said means absolutely nothing in relation to the post I made.
D-smash stun time is based off of the staleness of d-smash and the % of the opponent. Setups that work at 0 stale do not work at 9 stale.

Crouch cancelling in Brawl halves hit... lag... I believe. Whatever it is, it halves d-smash's stun time.
 

Psalm

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Ah, didn't know a stale didn't have as much as a fresh stun time.

What is a great move when you are very close to your opponent? I try Dash attack into tilts, but I don't know exactly.
 

Demna

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What is a great move when you are very close to your opponent? I try Dash attack into tilts, but I don't know exactly.
Dash attack > Uptilt - at low percentages
Dash attack > Dtilt - at mid percentages
after that try to follow it up with the aerial that best fits the situation. I usually follow up Dtilts with SH buffered F-airs. Sometimes when your opponents varies his DI quite frequently and airdodges on point to avoid your aerials, you should frame trap your opponent with Dash>UpSmash, it's truly a viable option that's been underestimated in my opinion. At high percentages you might wanna follow up a dash attack with another dash attack (may work at any percentage) or dash attack>SideB if you predict they'll airdodge as they land back on stage. When you catch an opponent with a Dash Attack near a ledge (where the dash attack will put them offstage), you should use your Jab to get them further offstage and follow up to an aerial (or D-smash > DownB Spike/footstool etc.)
 

infiniteV115

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@ Psalm
These aren't all the possible dsmash followups but this is like a general outline for what you should be doing in most situations. Again as NR said, your dsmash followups depend on a lot of things, like staling, positioning, stage layout, how comfortable you are with all the timings and spacings of the followups, etc.

- From 0, if you don't have a dsmash lock on the opponent, then just dsmash x2 --> fair (doesn't work on MK, he doesn't pop out high enough), or dsmash x2 --> dash attack --> utilt. They both do 39%. You can also just replace the 2nd dsmash with a falling nair, though this makes the dash attack --> utilt harder.
- All of these can be SDI'd to avoid the full damage
- If you have a dsmash lock, do that and then followup according to w/e percent it finishes at by looking at what's below. I'll note that if you're doing the dsmash lock on a character on whom it lasts really long (eg Fox and Wolf go up to 100ish), then finish it off with a sideB because that might kill them and if it doesn't, your more reliable kill moves (bair/fair/uair) are still fresh.

- If the double dsmash puts them at dash attack lock percents, then do that and finish the DAL with an utilt to maximize guaranteed damage, dtilt to potentially continue the combo (eg DA x3 --> dtilt --> uair, and now you're juggling them)
- DAL starts working at about 40-50, if it's fresh. I find 45 is a good number for most relevant characters.

- If the double dsmash puts them at high-but-not-kill %s then usually fair will no longer work as the first hit will knock them too far away for the second, so instead you can just go for dsmash x2 --> nair/uair/bair. Bair does the most damage (12/13 depending on which part of it hits) but it's also one of your kill moves so if you don't want to stale it, the others are fine. Nair always does 10 and never stales nor refreshes your other moves, uair does a bit more when fresh but since it's usually stale, it'll usually do less damage than nair.
- I'm not sure, but I think at these %s fair will still work if you do a full hop rather than a short hop.
- At these percents you can also start to go for dsmash x3 --> uair/bair (bair is much harder)

- If the dsmash combo puts the opponent at kill %s, whether or not you do 2 dsmashes is entirely your choice and depends on things like whether 1 dsmash puts them at kill % or not, how comfortable you are with the timing, etc. But yeah just go for dsmash x2 --> your aerial of choice (uair/fair2/bair), or dsmash x1 --> sideB. The followup depends on how much % they're at (therefore also depending on whether you used 1 dsmash or 2), and how stale each of your kill moves are. Just note that dsmash x2 --> sideB won't work (it might be possible but I don't think it is. If it is, the timing is really really strict). You can also kill with dsmash x3 --> uair/bair depending on how comfortable you are with the timing for these. If you're comfortable with all the timings, and you keep your kill moves as fresh as possible, then you have a lot of leeway here. If you're only comfortable with some timings and only some kill moves are fresh, you have fewer options.
- I'll note that for bair/fair2, the tip of the foot is where the strongest hitbox is.

- If you have guaranteed air releases at %s where the pummels+throw combination deals more damage than the conventional followups, then use them. eg With MK you might be better off at the high-but-not-kill %s range going for double dsmash x2 --> grab --> air release chaingrab with some pummels --> finish with uthrow, and that'll deal a good ~35-45% depending on how many pummels you get in there. The pummels will also help to refresh your other moves.
 
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pichuthedk

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Ok so Falco has official made it to the top of my hit list almost all of the included troll statements happened to me yesterday by 2 separate falcos, The one that pisses me off the most was getting hit by a dacus at that awkward angle while i was adjusting my di for upwards =/.

I almost got screwed over last stock in a set by cause when i was landing a down smash lock the we were on the island transition for Castle siege( My CP for G3) and the island tilted slightly throwing off my timing *sigh*.

I'm starting to want to get rid of my suit pieces just for that matchup because one falco was only spaming his reflecter when ever it was like 100% safe and I just dislike starting at a disadvantage because of 1 reflect at the wrong time.

But I digress Can I get Match up tips?
In terms of CP stages and moves I should probably avoid using in the match up as much as I usually do for other characters?
I took one to castle siege which seemed to work the best I'm pretty sure yoshis was banned by 1 and the other banned ps 1? something like that.
 
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Demna

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I'd go for a dash grab usually, and when falco is prone to spotdodging from your grabs then you should start using your pieces.
 

1PokeMastr

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What are the applications of Jab -> Grab with Zss and Jab -> Fsmash ?

I have an inside source that keeps telling me that they're amazing options.
 

ViperGold42

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I have 2 questions. I have been having problem killing at low percentages, what are some good combos to kill at low range? My 2nd question is that I'm also having trouble with Uair, It seems I'm not getting the sweet spot that kills, any tips on how to practice this?
 

Demna

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I have 2 questions. I have been having problem killing at low percentages, what are some good combos to kill at low range? My 2nd question is that I'm also having trouble with Uair, It seems I'm not getting the sweet spot that kills, any tips on how to practice this?
At low range you can use SH falling B-air/F-air2 for the kill. Considering the sweetspot for Up-air, it's located toward the tip of the Upair (the toes if you will) iiirc. I personally don't have troubles killing with Up-air from any spot except the bitter backside of it.
 

ViperGold42

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At low range you can use SH falling B-air/F-air2 for the kill. Considering the sweetspot for Up-air, it's located toward the tip of the Upair (the toes if you will) iiirc. I personally don't have troubles killing with Up-air from any spot except the bitter backside of it.
aww I think I know what's going on. I keep hitting the spot where it deals 10% but it doesn't kill.
 
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