Zero Suit Matchup Discussion - The Unproven - Pokemon Trainer

[Tien2500]

lol...yeah I figured I was probably playing Charizard vs ZSS all wrong... against the ZSS in my region it was so bad I was relying in Squirtle/Ivy instead of Squirtle/Charizard. As Charizard in this matchup I shield a lot, and use grabs to do most of my damage, with the occasional u-smash. Rock Smash is nowhere near as safe here as it is in most matchups. Between neutral-b, side-b, and one frame jab it's really hard for Zard to get in close.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but I do agree that Squirtle's air game is better than ZSS's overall as well as in this matchup

Yeah side B means you have to be more cautious in using Rock Smash. But you can also punish ZSS if she's careless with her side B. Its easy to powershield and if you do you can run in and grab. Shielding too much can be a problem because ZSS can put enough pressure up to easily shieldstab a big character like Charizard. An aggressive ZSS can be really hard to deal with if you're not used to it. Good powershielding is pretty essential.

Flamewar about who has the better air game coming up soon.

 

[Steeler]

if you have the luxury of playing gay with charizard (usually meaning you just got the kill on zss with zard and are up by a stock), DO IT, it's **** and helps squirtle out a lot

if your shield is low, just run the hell away and flamethrower/rock smash if you get the opportunity

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think anyone will flame. Squirtle's aerials are really fast and amazing. But ZSS' uair is probably one of the best aerials in the game, it only comes out in 4 frames and has a disjoint the size of a small planet, and that's just uair.

Overall against the rest of the cast I'd guess ZSS fares better as an aerial fighter. It isn't just the speed and priority (she does have those) it's the disjoints and range that really make it good.

In this specific MU Squirtle has an advantage in the air though for sure.

 

[noradseven]

if you have the luxury of playing gay with charizard (usually meaning you just got the kill on zss with zard and are up by a stock), DO IT, it's **** and helps squirtle out a lot

if your shield is low, just run the hell away and flamethrower/rock smash if you get the opportunity

Yeah however she shouldn't be hit by charizard p. much ever that match should be like 7:3 our favor or better, if we hug the ground in that match, their really isn't much zard can do, as far as quick kills at least, his grab is his most terrifying thing against us, and his over B due to our terrible shield. As long as we remember than f-air is fast as hell and not jump into it like a ****** it shouldn't be a problem, but you can always go for it the zard is heavy, but once we hit the zard you will probably eat 50+% damage.

 

[Tien2500]

Yeah however she shouldn't be hit by charizard p. much ever that match should be like 7:3 our favor or better, if we hug the ground in that match, their really isn't much zard can do, as far as quick kills at least, his grab is his most terrifying thing against us, and his over B due to our terrible shield. As long as we remember than f-air is fast as hell and not jump into it like a ****** it shouldn't be a problem, but you can always go for it the zard is heavy, but once we hit the zard you will probably eat 50+% damage.

70:30? Nah. Not even close. 70:30 is a pretty hopeless matchup. Charizard can make you pay big time for any error in spacing, has some defensive tools to make approaching tough, and has very good KO moves. Dtilt, Utilt, and Usmash are all fast and powerful. Plus being really heavy is nice too. Its a disadvantage for sure but nothing in the 70:30 range.

As for the air game debate while ZSS may be better in terms of air to air combat Squirtle's airgame is definitely better for approaching and can easily get him around projectile spam which ZSS has trouble with which is why I think its better overall. But they're both great.

 

[noradseven]

70:30? Nah. Not even close. 70:30 is a pretty hopeless matchup. Charizard can make you pay big time for any error in spacing, has some defensive tools to make approaching tough, and has very good KO moves. Dtilt, Utilt, and Usmash are all fast and powerful. Plus being really heavy is nice too. Its a disadvantage for sure but nothing in the 70:30 range.

As for the air game debate while ZSS may be better in terms of air to air combat Squirtle's airgame is definitely better for approaching and can easily get him around projectile spam which ZSS has trouble with which is why I think its better overall. But they're both great.

Yeah it is p. hopeless, they "can" punish the spacing, but as long as the ZSS plays it carefully and defensively rather than going lol easy match and dash's in its p. bad. Personally I ahve always felt like charizard is like rob but not as good, and we 6:4 rob without the infinite, FYI.

squitle has a better air game against grounded oppenents, but we have a better AA, sometimes ppl forget there is a difference.

 

[Tien2500]

Yeah it is p. hopeless, they "can" punish the spacing, but as long as the ZSS plays it carefully and defensively rather than going lol easy match and dash's in its p. bad. Personally I ahve always felt like charizard is like rob but not as good, and we 6:4 rob without the infinite, FYI.

squitle has a better air game against grounded oppenents, but we have a better AA, sometimes ppl forget there is a difference.

But Charizard is absolutely nothing like ROB. Only thing is they're both easy to juggle. But Zard has Rocksmash which is useful both on the ground and in the air. Charizard also has much better KO options (Dtilt, Usmash) , a quicker Bair, flamethrower, and great grab game.

For comparison's sake here are a few other matches that are listed as 70:30 by other boards...

Marth vs Squirtle
Pika vs Fox
Snake vs ICs
Snake vs Zelda
Peach vs Falcon
Olimar vs Ganondorf
ICs vs Dedede
Dedede vs Samus/Ike/Wolf

Charizard vs Zamus is not nearly as bad as any of these.

 

[sasook]

Olimar vs Ganondorf

The Ganons have this listed as 0:100.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah however she shouldn't be hit by charizard p. much ever that match should be like 7:3 our favor or better, if we hug the ground in that match

i find this ironic considering charizard will also be hugging the ground

 

[Tien2500]

The Ganons have this listed as 0:100.

Lol. I don't see how it can be 100:0... Unless a Ganon player just says **** it and puts down the controller everytime. Has to be at least 99:1. But in any event Olimar's board has it listed as 70:30.

i find this ironic considering charizard will also be hugging the ground

ZSS can't really approach very well by the air. Her only safe approach in this match is her Bair and that doesn't really put Charizard above her where she wants him. Uair can sometimes be used as an approach but not against someone with Zards grab range. Fastfalled Nair might work too. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what options ZSS has to entirely shut Charizard down.

 

[Magik0722]

I play against shlike somewhat frequently, ill post up a summary o what i think about the matchup later

but one thing i have to say

ZSS vs Ivy isnt that bad, its 6:4 IMO

 

[Toby.]

I would like to discuss this matchup with zero on msn a bit before I do a write up. Methinks it will be quicker that way. Expect something in a day or two

 

[noradseven]

I would like to discuss this matchup with zero on msn a bit before I do a write up. Methinks it will be quicker that way. Expect something in a day or two

come on irc problem solved

 

[Zero]

I have him on MSN, but Toby hanging out in IRC would be teh coolz

 

[Toby.]

i was actually going to come on irc but an old friend came to visit

zero ima come on msn nao.

 

[noradseven]

I play against shlike somewhat frequently, ill post up a summary o what i think about the matchup later

but one thing i have to say

ZSS vs Ivy isnt that bad, its 6:4 IMO

It's p. bad I really can't think of any gimmick you got on us that another character doesn't have just as much.

Personally I find ivysaur to be an easier olimar, I know their are plenty of diffs and stuff, but hey I find ivy's attacks far easier to evade, and I can use similar approach/pressure strings.

Ivy is far less punishing damage wise, but ivysaur defiantly does more knockback especially in the air but still...

 

[Zero]

i was actually going to come on irc but an old friend came to visit

zero ima come on msn nao.

You should totally lurk in our channel. :D

 

[Toby.]

I'll lurk YOU.

Anyway after talking with Zero we pretty much decided that Squirtle has a 75:25 Advantage on ZSS. If squirtle waterguns zamus' side b whilst she is airborne it instantly sends he into the blastzone, killing her.

Since this pretty much destroys any spacing options you might have and lets us read you really easily, its pretty obvious that its almost unwinnable for you guys.

We haven't talked much about the other two yet.

 

[sasook]

But....ZSS players hardly use the whip anymore...

 

[noradseven]

I'll lurk YOU.

Anyway after talking with Zero we pretty much decided that Squirtle has a 75:25 Advantage on ZSS. If squirtle waterguns zamus' side b whilst she is airborne it instantly sends he into the blastzone, killing her.

Since this pretty much destroys any spacing options you might have and lets us read you really easily, its pretty obvious that its almost unwinnable for you guys.

We haven't talked much about the other two yet.

No ****ing way its 75:25, its p. bad Ill give you that its not total *** **** though, jesus. If this was 75:25 jiggs would be like 6:4 jiggs favor, which its not, and yeah the jet does total lol own us in the air when we use over B sometimes is p. funny, but not being able to use over B is not really that big of a deal for ZSS, especially because its still safe using it close to the ground, but there are other reasons to not use it against squrtle.

When I fight squirtles I use alot of j. buffer b-air, because it kinda beats, and if you mess up ties with anything squirtle throws out at us, and if you get solidly above us you get owned by u-air as much as anyone. That being said you have the speed advantage in the air are tiny and have quick good range moves.

Actually I don't even know if its bad I don't have a super lot of matchup exp but then again thats what most ppl will be going in with soo...

 

[Zero]

It was a joke, Norad -_-

We're midway through discussing Squirtle, there's so much crap Squirty can do it's not funny. My preliminary thoughts say 60:40 in Squirtle's favour, and it'll probably stay that way.

As for Ivyzard, that'll come later.

 

[Tien2500]

So it seemingly doesn't seem like we're going to get much more input on this match. I think we should probably call it 60:40 Squirtle's favor, 65:35 ZSS' favor against Ivy, and 40:60 Zard's favor. I'd call the overall matchup 55:45 (maybe even) in a stage that allows instant switching (mainly Smashville and Lylat). On stages that don't I'm not sure. Close to 60:40 ZSS. It depends alot on who gets the first kill. If Squirtle (who should always be first) does then Ivy can be sacrificed hopefully doing a bit damage and things are fine. But if Squirtle dies firsts it could easily be 50% damage or more before Ivy finds a safe time to switch. (dtilt, bthrow are the main tools).

 

[noradseven]

So it seemingly doesn't seem like we're going to get much more input on this match. I think we should probably call it 60:40 Squirtle's favor, 65:35 ZSS' favor against Ivy, and 40:60 Zard's favor. I'd call the overall matchup 55:45 (maybe even) in a stage that allows instant switching (mainly Smashville and Lylat). On stages that don't I'm not sure. Close to 60:40 ZSS. It depends alot on who gets the first kill. If Squirtle (who should always be first) does then Ivy can be sacrificed hopefully doing a bit damage and things are fine. But if Squirtle dies firsts it could easily be 50% damage or more before Ivy finds a safe time to switch. (dtilt, bthrow are the main tools).

Wait how the hell does zard beat us, I mean its not like its easy but, and a good strat is to never use your second jump against the zard, because otherwise you will die hella early, like against zard just poke with d-tilts and b-air, and juggle with u-airs, I mean its not like easy or anything but the match always felt similar to the rob match, with zards grabs being a ton better, but him lacking the godly d-smash, and various other switch's, but in all seriousness in this match numbers arn't going to matter alot its going to be style and experience due to the lack of matchup exp on both sides.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zard definitely does not beat ZSS, she beats him by 6:4 at least.

 

[Tien2500]

Wait how the hell does zard beat us, I mean its not like its easy but, and a good strat is to never use your second jump against the zard, because otherwise you will die hella early, like against zard just poke with d-tilts and b-air, and juggle with u-airs, I mean its not like easy or anything but the match always felt similar to the rob match, with zards grabs being a ton better, but him lacking the godly d-smash, and various other switch's, but in all seriousness in this match numbers arn't going to matter alot its going to be style and experience due to the lack of matchup exp on both sides.

Zard beats ZSS because I made a typo.

 

[ph00tbag]

Zard beats ZSS because I made a typo.

I'm totally using this john if I ever lose to a Charizard.

"It's a bad match-up! Tien made a typo, so Charizard has the advantage."

 

[Tien2500]

I'm totally using this john if I ever lose to a Charizard.

"It's a bad match-up! Tien made a typo, so Charizard has the advantage."

Lol. Then people will be like... Who the **** is Tien?

 

[Sabin0786]

Yea squirtle definitely gives the hardest time out of them.

 

[Nefarious B]

ZEEERO wrap this one up and start the next one