Zero Suit Matchup Discussion - The Unproven - Pokemon Trainer

[Zero]

I've done my analysis and come to my own conclusion.

Your fair is a lot more prolonged than Diddy's fsmash, and if you pay attention it's no problem to SDI it.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying with nair. I'm saying even if you use it first, it will beat you out. At worst it will clash.

If ZSS beats you on the ground, in the air, and neither character can gimp each other in reasonable bounds, how can you say it's even? Learn to make your own decisions, man.

@MT: Australian ZSS ftw :D

 

[Camalange]

I've done my analysis and come to my own conclusion.

Your fair is a lot more prolonged than Diddy's fsmash, and if you pay attention it's no problem to SDI it.

Snakes Nair is longer and more deadly than Sonics Fair...
I can also say you're the first person ever to try and tell someone that Sonic's Fair can be negated just as simply as that, lol

I don't think you understand what I'm saying with nair. I'm saying even if you use it first, it will beat you out. At worst it will clash.

Nair will not be stopping all of Sonic's aerial approaches I can tell you that much.

If ZSS beats you on the ground, in the air, and neither character can gimp each other in reasonable bounds, how can you say it's even? Learn to make your own decisions, man.

First of all, never said ZSS beats Sonic on the ground. The only troublesome thing can be her jab because of how quick it is. ZSS attacks have enough either startup or ending lag for Sonic to get around. ASC works wonders, especially on Dsmash or SideB. Aren't those moves really good or something?

In the air, I said I only think ZSS is a little more effective since she can kill that way. Sonic simply aims to get you offstage or rack up damage (which is very good). His edgeguarding and gimping is effective, just cuz Kinzer doesn't think it'll happen doesn't mean I don't.

I've made my decisions, but I know you people won't be convinced. I talked to another Sonic to come in and help discuss...

Other (6:15:44 PM): Lollllll wow
Other (6:15:56 PM): I'm not gonna post in there

So I think I'm done as well, unless I can chat with Snakeee.

 

[Kinzer]

Heavy projectile spam, let alone projectile spam, I can agree to.

Aerial prowess? Sonic has that covered, maybe not enough to safely gimp Zero Suit Samus no, but it is enough to compete, evenly if I may add. I'll settle for ZZS > Sonic, but please don't think Sonic is Snake when compared to helplessness (even though Snake has his monstrously powerful and fast yet laggy at the end aerials)

Zero Suit may be a fast-faller, but you admitted to her being LIGHT, and it doesn't matter if you're able to fastfall, in fact this doesn't help your case.

If you want an extreme example of your characters' attributes, look at Fox, he is another light fastfaller, and yet do people know the character for living for a really long time? No, that would be left to D3, who is a heavyweight to back up his fastfalling. Wario is another heavy but in his case he is floaty so that just helps his case, Samus too but to a lesser extent.

A.K.A. It doesn't help to be a fastfaller, it also doesn't help to be light, period.

Bair being decayed is a player fault, it is suppose to be a kill move and if it is used to damage I'm sure that better players will be able to refresh it later on when it counts, or they would save it for the kill when it will be needed.. There's no theorycraft from my posts when it comes to MUs, only what works and why/how it does.

That was addressing you're second to last post here, BTW.

Are you talknig about SDIing Sonic's Fair or Zero Suit's Fair?

I'm gonig to assume you're talking about Sonics, and if you are you have the right idea but the wrong way to get to the result.

Well, at least with descending Fair, which is where it should be used anyway, I'm certainly not going to try to attack you head on with Fair which doesn't have that much range until the end. Again I don't theorycraft/worry about what bad players do, good Sonic's would be attacking you with Bair.

If you really want to DI Sonic's Fair, it depends where you are. If you're in front of him and/or haven't been hit yet, you want to DI away. This is also assuming that he just started it up, not almost ending, in which case hope you don't get hit by the last part.

If you're caught in the middle, DI towards his back.

If Sonic's Rising with his Fairs and you're above him, I hope you have Godly SDI to back up Ding down, otherwise you're going to eat it. If you're below him when he's doing Rising Fairs feel free to DI down, though I don't know how often this will happen, my guess is not very likely.

Descending Fairs? Oh yeah as I already said before, they're bad, since they'll put Sonic in a fish-like state if he touches ground, but again nobody who is any good will leave them open oh heavens no.

Bair is disjointed, it is much easier said than done to work around this.

I hope I don't need to explain Uair, being that without D3s Mallet and G&W's... whatever he does, it's the most disjointed Uair in the game. Happens to be fast too. Both characters don't want to be above either really, options become limited there.

Now this is silly, I feel like this discussion is wearing out longer than it should be. I should just stop here and let you do whatever, I've done all I can up to this point.

Edit: I'm too slow.

 

[Zero]

sigh, people still have the 2008 mentality of ZSS. Dsmash and sideB are not our only options on the ground, our tilts are disjointed and have fantastic range, dtilt in particular, and good priority. Utilt out of shield will put you inthe air, and with a 3 frame start, there's not much time to react.

Hell, sideB isn't even a GROUND option, you will rarely see a good ZSS use it grounded.

Snake's nair is a lot longer, yes, but you know what? Every ZSS i know will SDI out of it and uair. Snakeee, Dazwa, Nick, and even the low level ones such as myself. It's not hard.

I'm standing by 60:40. If you think you can gimp ZSS, I&ll just wish uou luck.

 

[Kinzer]

sigh, people still have the 2008 mentality of ZSS. Dsmash and sideB are not our only options on the ground, our tilts are disjointed and have fantastic range, dtilt in particular, and good priority. Utilt out of shield will put you inthe air, and with a 3 frame start, there's not much time to react.

Hell, sideB isn't even a GROUND option, you will rarely see a good ZSS use it grounded.

Snake's nair is a lot longer, yes, but you know what? Every ZSS i know will SDI out of it and uair. Snakeee, Dazwa, Nick, and even the low level ones such as myself. It's not hard.

I'm standing by 60:40. If you think you can gimp ZSS, I&ll just wish uou luck.

...Okay, thank you for that sobstory?

Until we came in here, we were looking at how you could counter Spindash. Nuff said.

Great, so Zero Suit has some great OoS options and ground options, like I don't acknowledge this? We can go back and forth all day about what not to do, but this isn't getting us anywhere is it? I can just say how I spam Dash Attack and space so I don't worry about UTilt, but again people are going to get hit by either anyway so there's no point arguing this.

Okay, good to be reminded of this.

Snake's Nair is so easy to SDI out of, I've seen MK's Uair out of it, as Camalange said people still die from it... and I can imagine it being that they didn't get hit from the start to the finish. Like Snake misses 1 or two of his kicks. It lasts through airdodges, and I would love to see how people SDI it midway through the attack. This is getting ridiculous though, this doesn't even pertain to the main topic.

I guess I can't convince everybody though. I really hope you're the only one with this mentality though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh, I was the only person who even mentioned spin dash and I didn't say you'd use it to approach. I just said jab beats it.

Just about everything you've said about ZSS has been flat wrong. Just quit.

 

[sasook]

You guys need to calm down, like seriously. I dunno much about Sonic, but ZSS mains, you guys are acting as if everyone is supposed to know everything about ZSS from the get-go. There's a reason everyone has the '08 mentality about her - we never explain anything.

Most probably is very silly. I could say that any move in the game would beat out your attacks if I did it first.

This addressed the nair. Firstly, someone should have told you that we recently did some testing with nair, and found it has some really weird properties. One property is that it's exempt from that "aerials never clash, first one always wins" rule. It actually does have weird priority, and actually does clank with other aerials. So that's what he meant by its priority and how it will probably beat out your move or clank with it.

Are you talknig about SDIing Sonic's Fair or Zero Suit's Fair?

I'm gonig to assume you're talking about Sonics, and if you are you have the right idea but the wrong way to get to the result.

Well, at least with descending Fair, which is where it should be used anyway, I'm certainly not going to try to attack you head on with Fair which doesn't have that much range until the end. Again I don't theorycraft/worry about what bad players do, good Sonic's would be attacking you with Bair.

If you really want to DI Sonic's Fair, it depends where you are. If you're in front of him and/or haven't been hit yet, you want to DI away. This is also assuming that he just started it up, not almost ending, in which case hope you don't get hit by the last part.

If you're caught in the middle, DI towards his back.

If Sonic's Rising with his Fairs and you're above him, I hope you have Godly SDI to back up Ding down, otherwise you're going to eat it. If you're below him when he's doing Rising Fairs feel free to DI down, though I don't know how often this will happen, my guess is not very likely.

Descending Fairs? Oh yeah as I already said before, they're bad, since they'll put Sonic in a fish-like state if he touches ground, but again nobody who is any good will leave them open oh heavens no.

I think this should be included in the write-up. DI info is always important, thanks Kinzer.

Bair is disjointed, it is much easier said than done to work around this.

I hope I don't need to explain Uair, being that without D3s Mallet and G&W's... whatever he does, it's the most disjointed Uair in the game. Happens to be fast too. Both characters don't want to be above either really, options become limited there.

I'd consider both characters' bairs to be great, we should leave it at that, tbh. There's really no arguing over which one is better, they're both good, they're both sorta disjointed, etc.


As for the uair thing, that is where I, and probably several ZSS players, will disagree. Not on your actual usefulness of the move, but simply the bolded part. We've come to believe after several tests that in fact it's ZSS' uair that is the most disjointed uair in the game, and, like yours, it's fast. Of course, you have to space it correctly so it's like, her toes hitting the opponent, but the fact still stands.

Not a huge point, I'm being nitpicky lol. Your point about your uair being great, still has merit and shouldn't be taken lightly, considering ZSS being above an opponent is never good.


EDIT: Also, Kinzer, stop putting ZZS please.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You guys need to calm down, like seriously. I dunno much about Sonic, but ZSS mains, you guys are acting as if everyone is supposed to know everything about ZSS from the get-go. There's a reason everyone has the '08 mentality about her - we never explain anything.

Yeah, no ZSS main has ever explained that ZSS isn't easily gimped or that she has great recovery. We've probably also never explained that she has good kill power or that her uair is broken, or that she has three of the game's best aerial moves.

I think the reason we're so frustrated is that we're annoyed that we have to explain it every time there's a match-up thread, heh. Do you know how many times I've typed "We can flipstool you if you edgehog the loltether?" It gets old, lol. Instead of talking about the finer points of a character match-up, we're explaining ZSS 101 to players who should presumably know better but don't.

This is probably at least part of the reason we can't get any good players here to talk about match-ups because the good players don't want to explain that ZSS can boost jump or that the suit pieces aren't the deadliest part of her game. We should expect people to know this crap by now. lol

 

[Camalange]

This is probably at least part of the reason we can't get any good players here to talk about match-ups because the good players don't want to explain that ZSS can boost jump or that the suit pieces aren't the deadliest part of her game. We should expect people to know this crap by now. lol

Hmm...

I've only done this MU a few times and don't wanna offer like a huge synopsis or anything, but a few tricks:

Holding A > Spindash

Every attack in the entire game can beat Spindash. That's why it's used as a punisher.

Dtilt > Many of Sonic's ground approaches (lol, dtilt... sonic... lol)

Brilliant.

ZSS does not suck at killing, what are you talking about? lol ZSS should kill Sonic way before he kills her.

lol

Just about everything you've said about ZSS has been flat wrong. Just quit.

You're on a roll buddy, keep it up. You don't think Sonics have to explain the difference between DownB and SideB every MU, and how Dtilt does not counter him? Top it all off with how every character board says Sonic has telegraphed kill moves that don't land (I thank OS for this) and you got yourselves a character board that get tired of it, but still keep a cool head (what a great song...) At least Zero's posts are worth reading and responding too.

You're not the only one dude, get over it. Almost every character board is like this.

I second what Kinzer said, and thank you Sasook for clearing that up.

EDIT: Also, Kinzer, stop putting ZZS please.

XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dtilt is disjointed, it stops many approaches, not just sonic's. It also doesn't flat-out counter it, I was just being funny. Can you not tell the difference?

Sonic players should watch out for ZSS' dtilt. It has ridiculous range, good damage, and a pretty good-sized disjoint. Do you disagree?

Sonic does not beat ZSS in the air or even match her. I realize Sonic has a strong aerial game. ZSS' is stronger, and is as good as if not better than characters like Meta Knight and Wario. Bair, Fair, and Uair have disjoints, high priority and kill. Usmash and high-angled ftilt are very powerful anti-air as well. Do you disagree?

ZSS' ground game lacks and this is where Sonic should try to focus if he's any good. However ZSS has a few tricks on the ground, such as strong tilts and a 1 frame jab that get her out of sticky situations. You are advantaged on the ground because of your movement speed. Use it.

The offstage game is where I lose you. ZSS doesn't get gimped by Sonic any more than she can gimp him. I've tried to gimp good Sonic players before and it is close to impossible, btw. ZSS mains, don't try it, lol.

 

[sasook]

Yeah, no ZSS main has ever explained that ZSS isn't easily gimped or that she has great recovery. We've probably also never explained that she has good kill power or that her uair is broken, or that she has three of the game's best aerial moves.

I think the reason we're so frustrated is that we're annoyed that we have to explain it every time there's a match-up thread, heh. Do you know how many times I've typed "We can flipstool you if you edgehog the loltether?" It gets old, lol. Instead of talking about the finer points of a character match-up, we're explaining ZSS 101 to players who should presumably know better but don't.

Believe me, I know what it feels like. Not only here, but we get tired of having to explain how Link lives to 170% consistently, that he's harder to gimp than throw-off-stage-then-taunt, etc.

Just put up with it, you can only expect to get repetitive for the lesser used characters.

This is probably at least part of the reason we can't get any good players here to talk about match-ups because the good players don't want to explain that ZSS can boost jump or that the suit pieces aren't the deadliest part of her game. We should expect people to know this crap by now. lol

Links have the same problem, and probably for the same reason. Again, you just need to be patient.



Anyways, to answer somebody from waaayyyyyyyy back, Snakeee doesn't always post in all threads, but I'm pretty sure he reads them all. So he'll probably post eventually, since he's so wanted. lol

Spoiler

Snakeee is on the Most Wanted list o_o. He's a marked man now

 

[Kinzer]

I'm sorry, I make typos and overlook some occasionally.

I am however not taking back what I said about how this is ******** to discuss when all we get is backsass for trying to help, I'm not dealing with it. I've learned by now that what goes on the T.V. is much more important than the monitor, so even if you don't want to take my advice, that's perfectly fine, you don't have to, but the again it's not my problem if I'm getting work done and you have your metagame stale because you're all too ignorant.

 

[Camalange]

Dtilt is disjointed, it stops many approaches, not just sonic's. It also doesn't flat-out counter it, I was just being funny. Can you not tell the difference?

Hard to tell when you have Jab > Spindash right above it

Sonic players should watch out for ZSS' dtilt. It has ridiculous range, good damage, and a pretty good-sized disjoint. Do you disagree?

Ah, reasoning.

I gotta agree. ZSS does have a nice Dtilt which is a pain since it can setup for aerials. Sonic's ground approaches are generally...

SH Fair
SH RAR Bair
Running Shield

SH Fair is decent and is quick, SH RAR Bair has good range and disjoint which is good for poking through. Running shield comes into play on how certain players react, like if I run towards you and you decide to Ftilt each time, I can approach, PS the tilt and grab.

Generally Running Shield isn't considered an option for characters, but I say it is with Sonic simply because of the intimidation of his speed causes players to react differently, making it a viable and very often used approach.


I don't recommend using Neutral B "spam" because it's a slow projectile, and Sonic has a very easy time getting around projectiles in general simply because he can cover such a wide area of ground with his speed alone, shield a projectile, and continue running. I think this was touched on a bit, but not deeply so I bring it back up.

 

[The Filth]

I play RyuKen frequently, he lives about 20 minutes away from me if you guys know him. He's probably the best sonic in the UK.

99% of cases I will live longer than he will. Sonic maybe heavier, but it seems you guys need an Uair/Fsmash/Bair to finish a zero suit off. I normally don't even bother trying to gimp him, it's altogether too much effort and not likely, but I can't remember a time he's gimped me either.

This isn't me saying ololo ZSS > Sonic, but it does feel that he generally has more trouble finishing me than I do to him. I also find it's the Uair/Bair which ends if for sonic most of the time, ours come out significantly faster too.

I'll have a chat to him and see how he feels about this, and get back to you all.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Paralyzer isn't a very good move vs Sonic, I agree.

In order to react to your approaches, there is the possibility of retreating ff'd nair (at low percents), dash attack, grab (if your shielding gets predictable), and of course, ff'd bair or uair, sourspot uair, etc.

We might use nB to force you to react to it, either by shielding or jumping and then punishing appropriately, though.

 

[Camalange]

I see you edited your last post, so I'll respond to that.

Sonic does not beat ZSS in the air or even match her. I realize Sonic has a strong aerial game. ZSS' is stronger, and is as good as if not better than characters like Meta Knight and Wario. Bair, Fair, and Uair have disjoints, high priority and kill. Usmash and high-angled ftilt are very powerful anti-air as well. Do you disagree?

I honestly think Sonic fairs decently in the air, but I can't argue that ZSS is at her prime there. She wins in the air mostly because of the range and speed of her aerials, and that being her primary form of killing.

I just wanted to enforce that Sonic can have his fair share of fun as well, just for much shorter periods of time.

ZSS' ground game lacks and this is where Sonic should try to focus if he's any good. However ZSS has a few tricks on the ground, such as strong tilts and a 1 frame jab that get her out of sticky situations. You are advantaged on the ground because of your movement speed. Use it.

I agree. I also don't recommend grabbing ever unless you have a 100% guaranteed set up for it, because Sonic can spring out of almost any "combo" and your grab leaves her very vulnerable.

ZSS rules the air, Sonic gets the ground. It's funny because for Sonic it's usually the opposite in MUs >_>

ZSS doesn't get gimped by Sonic any more than she can gimp him. I've tried to gimp good Sonic players before and it is close to impossible, btw. ZSS mains, don't try it, lol.

Agreed. The reason why I don't see ZSS having such a favoroble MU on Sonic is for all the following we have just agreed on.

Sonic wins on the ground.
ZSS wins in the air.
Both characters don't get gimped.
Both characters have average KO move.

I know ZSS can kill of course, but you have to admit she has average KO moves at best. Her Uair and Bair are the best options and you will rarely get Sonics with SideB since it's slow and easily punished by the blue blur. She has crafty tricks in the air to land them, but no guaranteed, right? I'm not aware of ZSS having guaranteed setups for Bair or Uair at higher percents, except for Maybe UpB pull > Uair.

Just remember Sonic can live to very high percents. Sonic has a fantastic momentum cancel, and ZSS has average KO moves.

ZSS is light and dies at earlier percents, but Sonic has mediocre KO moves with no guaranteed setups at all.

I give ZSS the slight advantage 55:45 but after all this debate and reading of everyone's posts, I don't think I will ever be convinced of it being 60:40, even if that's what you guys decide on for the final ratio.


I'm glad things kinda cleared up a bit here..things started mad ugly >_>

 

[The Filth]

At around 90-100% or so, a Dsmash landed is pretty much a guaranteed KO near edges of stages. I normally catch sonics out of spindashing with it if they try it on the higher percentages.

By Dsmash I mean our Dsmash - Dsmash - Bair combo, it's good stuff.

 

[Nixernator]

Going to reread thread and edit this post later with my response.

 

[Zero]

I'm glad things kinda cleared up a bit here..things started mad ugly >_>

Me too, it's more fun this way :]

There's a lot of things I agree with, surprisingly, however there's just a few things. I need a proper keyboard to respond properly, mobile phone qwerty isn t good enough >.>quopond properly, mobile phone qwerty



isn't enough >.>

 

[Camalange]

Me too, it's more fun this way :]

:D

I need a proper keyboard to respond properly, mobile phone qwerty isn t good enough >.>quopond properly, mobile phone qwerty



isn't enough >.>

LOL xD

qwerty

 

[noradseven]

WTF guys with all the rage this isn't the ban MK thread also hillarious fun, gg guys.

Sonic beats us on the ground he has a good grab and all that **** plus just the way he attacks on the ground is bad for us, we can still do some nifty stuff with d-tilt and u-tilt, but in all honesty normally we should be just evading his ground attacks, with jumps.

In the air we have sonic beat, reasonably bad too, one of the main reasons is if sonic whiffs his aerials he is prey to ours and not so much the other way around, plus our moves outspeed his in p. much every area except down air.

As far as who will die first normally it seems to be the sonic player, but even then its normally not till like 140%-160% a late kill for us but, normally sonic mains have difficultly landing there killing blows against me so I normally live to around 200%, then n-air kills me or soemthing.


Also jeez ppl you shouldn't get a good sonic with d-smash, maybe off the edge until they learn to recover high but thats not hard either.


Also I play alot of sonic myself because he is kinda fun and stuff, and yeah those killing moves land far more often than you think b-air might take a while but the animation is subtle and the hitbox is great, that being said it still really doesn't connect with me too much anymore, mainly because I try to never be behind sonic :D.

I personally find ppls biggest problem with sonic is mental lol his attacks are so easy to dodge, uhh no they arn't they arn't like impossible to dodge, but you got to focus.

 

[Yankee]

The thing is though, you guys are probably right about sonic winning on the ground, but it really doesn't matter too much because we in a jump 90% of the time anyway. So really it doesn't make a ton of a difference. I just spent a long time reading through the whole thread, and i don't have that hard of a time believing its 60-40 still. And if we can't agree on that, it is still at least 55-45.

 

[Browny]

people who have never played against a competent user of either character should not post. It becomes painfully obvious who they are and there wouldnt be all this pointless discussion about explaining sideb/downb, flipstool jumps etc

 

[noradseven]

people who have never played against a competent user of either character should not post. It becomes painfully obvious who they are and there wouldnt be all this pointless discussion about explaining sideb/downb, flipstool jumps etc

Now here is a problem I have never really played against a sonic better than mine, granted a few sonic mains in the area say they are good with him, but no sorry they are not, also the fact that there isn't a good ZSS players everywhere makes it hard for us to have a relyable match, heck I am basing a good portion of my exp playing as sonic against my friends ZSS which tried to clone mine, also yeah alot of ppl don't know why sonics over B >>> down B, and alot of his crazy tricks he has, but the same thing happens to us ZSS players so who knows.

Also this match is so unknown that if one of you knows the match and the other doesn't its p. much over right there, also the odds of us running across this in a tourny is slim so I wouldn't worry about it a ton. Just get a friend to pick up the other character for a while though this is hard because most ppl have large misconceptions on how to play as both these characters.

 

[Zero]

Yeah, no ZSS main has ever explained that ZSS isn't easily gimped or that she has great recovery. We've probably also never explained that she has good kill power or that her uair is broken, or that she has three of the game's best aerial moves.

I think the reason we're so frustrated is that we're annoyed that we have to explain it every time there's a match-up thread, heh. Do you know how many times I've typed "We can flipstool you if you edgehog the loltether?" It gets old, lol. Instead of talking about the finer points of a character match-up, we're explaining ZSS 101 to players who should presumably know better but don't.

This is probably at least part of the reason we can't get any good players here to talk about match-ups because the good players don't want to explain that ZSS can boost jump or that the suit pieces aren't the deadliest part of her game. We should expect people to know this crap by now. lol

We need some sort of guide on the front page that explains this sort of stuff to people who are new to ZSS, no joke.

But seriously, maybe we should write a thread with a few key points that are often misunderstood, and make it mandatory reading for any matchup contributor.

Now on to the point.

I've read through the pages and so I'll try and summarise it for everyone in a few points.

• On the ground, Sonic's speed, strong grab game and versatility will often overwhelm meticulous spacing and thus, we should take the fight to the air as quickly as possible, avoiding his attacks with jumps and punishing whiffed moves accordingly.
• You can beat all of Sonic's options with any aerial, unless you are hit first. Punish whiffed aerials with your own and make them count. UpB will break up combos though, however this does not put them below you and generally, they will try to dair. It is quick, but you can hit them out of dair with uair, spaced properly you will win, if not, you will clash.
• Both characters are very difficult to gimp and edgeguard.
• Sonic has an excellent momentum canceller, however he has a tough time landing his kill moves, so you should be scoring the blast zone kills first.
• Plasma Whip and Paralyser use should be minimalised in this fight, as Sonic is too fast and can punish both (grounded) options with ease.
• Sonic has an unusually strong armour piece game, so use them with discretion. This being said, still use them to their potential as his strong armour piece game does not override our various options with them.

The main reason I believe the matchup is 60:40 is because although you have a solid ground game, it does not completely shut down our ground game and other various options. Jab, dtilt and utilt handle the majority of your approaches with ease when used properly, and they put you in a highly disadvantageous position: the air. Since we can't particularly gimp each other and we both have average killing power, it's a slight disadvantage. I could call it even if your ground game beat all, or most of our ground options, but it doesn't.

EDIT: Oh! One more thing, counterpick stages. I would ban FD and try to pick Battlefield against Sonic, as Battlefield accentuates our aerial advantage and decreases the space that Sonic has to play with. As a counterpick, I would call Brinstar, for the same reasons as Battlefield except with even smaller blast zones. But I'm not sure of the stage to ban...

 

[Browny]

Sonic isnt highly disadvantaged once put in the air lol. Spinshot, jump cancelled sideb and spring dairs all over the place mean he can avoid your juggles quite well.

however i am lol'ing @ SFP comment about 3 best aerials.

are you seriously implying that those 3 aerials are all better than luigi nair, kirby/G&W/DDD bair, Ness/marth/peach fair, lucario/MK dair, MK/wario uair?

 

[noradseven]

Sonic isnt highly disadvantaged once put in the air lol. Spinshot, jump cancelled sideb and spring dairs all over the place mean he can avoid your juggles quite well.

however i am lol'ing @ SFP comment about 3 best aerials.

are you seriously implying that those 3 aerials are all better than luigi nair, kirby/G&W/DDD bair, Ness/marth/peach fair, lucario/MK dair, MK/wario uair?

Yeah sonic is quite disadvantaged, once he is put in the air, against ZSS, who has a high enough air speed too keep under you for the most part and an aireal game thats hard to get around, not to mention our crazy vertical acceleration which is really only beaten by like sonic lol. Plus its also not just how hard it is for us to hit you its also how hard it is to hit us.

As for the aerials, plus I don't know what sfp is talking about its 4 aireals that are god not just 3 but okay.
I wouldn't say we are better than all of them or even most of them, but we probably have one of the best if not the best aireal arsenal out there, most ppl seriously have no idea how bad our aireals can **** u up, and yes our u-air is better than MK/warios, its the best u-air in the game, and our b-air is very comparable to kirby/DDDs, and our f-air has a weird use but its amazing, and our n-air is flat out free combo on hit, not to mention its great blockstun, and weird angle.

 

[Browny]

comparable to kirby/ddd bair lol...

Seriously?

 

[noradseven]

comparable to kirby/ddd bair lol...

Seriously?

Its harder to use because its only out for an instant but it outranges theirs(well I think it trades with DDD...), and it is as safe as kirbies on block.

Does kirbies b-air beat nado, actually Im not sure, I know ours does though.

However kirby/DDDs character jump style makes there b-air even better.

 

[FUNKLAB]

comparable to kirby/ddd bair lol...

Seriously?

It's just more situational and dependant on what playstyle fits you. Very comparable, though. Our Bair is ridiculous. And our Uair is surely top 3 in the game at worst.

 

[sasook]

Sonic isnt highly disadvantaged once put in the air lol. Spinshot, jump cancelled sideb and spring dairs all over the place mean he can avoid your juggles quite well.

True, he isn't highly disadvantaged. He's still disadvantaged though.

however i am lol'ing @ SFP comment about 3 best aerials.

are you seriously implying that those 3 aerials are all better than luigi nair, kirby/G&W/DDD bair, Ness/marth/peach fair, lucario/MK dair, MK/wario uair?

Individually, they may fall flat. Combined together, that's one scary arsenal. People underestimate ZSS' air game. There's a reason we only lose to MK 45:55.

 

[Camalange]

I would agree to 60:40 if Sonic got utterly ***** in the air, but he honestly doesn't. He has plenty of options to move through the air was well as on the ground @_@

Spinshot, which is a jump canceled spindash (basically launches Sonic at a strange arch at the same speed as his run) so that's a very quick way to get past things, not to mention how his spring, like mentioned, can get out of attack strings very quickly, and to top it all off he doesn't have to dair each time (Spring > Dair will get ***** by most characters when predictable, but ZSS has a very easy time due to her multiple aerial options and the speed in which they activate) but Sonic can still easily just float down/airdodge or do other attacks while falling from spring.

Also the fact that Sonic DOES do so well with the armor pieces and beats her on the ground, if only slightly, should be enough to give Sonic quite an edge in this MU that not a lot of characters have...

I mean very few characters in this game DO beat ZSS in the air so...shouldn't a character who wins on the ground AND has great armor control AND is near impossible to gimp be considered slightly more of a threat?

I take back my previous thoughts on 50:50, but 55:45 seems perfect imo

 

[sasook]

stuff

I agree with all this, personally.

I take back my previous thoughts on 50:50, but 55:45 seems perfect imo

I second a 55:45.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

djb can't read my posts because he's blocked me. He also won't send me a lock of his hair for my closet djbrowny doll. Oh, why djb? Why?

But on the off chance he sees my reply, ZSS' aerials are very good.

luigi nair, kirby/G&W/DDD bair, Ness/marth/peach fair, lucario/MK dair, MK/wario uair?

Not sure but I'd guess uair does, Yes, Yes, Most of the time (not when lucario's past 100% or so)/yes to MK easily, yes.

Her bair, uair, and fair are all ludicrously disjointed and uair/bair in particular are broken as ****.

 

[Tien2500]

I would agree to 60:40 if Sonic got utterly ***** in the air, but he honestly doesn't. He has plenty of options to move through the air was well as on the ground @_@

Spinshot, which is a jump canceled spindash (basically launches Sonic at a strange arch at the same speed as his run) so that's a very quick way to get past things, not to mention how his spring, like mentioned, can get out of attack strings very quickly, and to top it all off he doesn't have to dair each time (Spring > Dair will get ***** by most characters when predictable, but ZSS has a very easy time due to her multiple aerial options and the speed in which they activate) but Sonic can still easily just float down/airdodge or do other attacks while falling from spring.

Also the fact that Sonic DOES do so well with the armor pieces and beats her on the ground, if only slightly, should be enough to give Sonic quite an edge in this MU that not a lot of characters have...

I mean very few characters in this game DO beat ZSS in the air so...shouldn't a character who wins on the ground AND has great armor control AND is near impossible to gimp be considered slightly more of a threat?

I take back my previous thoughts on 50:50, but 55:45 seems perfect imo

Floating down to safety after a spring isn't going to be that easy.

Sonic is very good with armor. But the armor starts near ZSS and it won't be hard to either get rid of them all or get rid of 2 of them and leave one which would reduce the threat. As for gimping, neither of the characters should be getting gimped in this matchup unless they mess up so I don't think that's really an advantage for either of them.

Honestly I think ZSS' advantage in the air is a bit bigger than Sonic's advantage on the ground. Not quite enough to make it 60:40 though. 55:45 sounds about right.

So about stages. I think Norfair or Brinstar (if legal) make good CPs and RC. Basically any stage that forces a lot of aerial playing. Big flat stages are better for Sonic. FD, Smashville, etc. What stages does sonic typically CP?

 

[Camalange]

So about stages. I think Norfair or Brinstar (if legal) make good CPs and RC. Basically any stage that forces a lot of aerial playing.

^^these are all very good stages to take Sonic. It seems that a lot of ZSS players like Lylat, but that's also a very good stage for Sonic, moreso ZSS, but your best bets are Norfair, Brinstar, and RC.

Big flat stages are better for Sonic. FD, Smashville, etc. What stages does sonic typically CP?

Well, tbh it depends on the Sonic. Personally I'd play Battlefield anyday, any character. Other Sonic's are like "rawr ban BF all teh time" but overall, Sonic's better stages are...

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Final Destination


Lylat Cruise and Smashville would be good stages for both ZSS and Sonic.

For this MU, I'd also recommend Sonics take ZSS to Frigate since it limits her recovery options and Sonic has no worries.

 

[sasook]

Off topic, but Cam, that re-write of Smooth Criminal in your sig is amazing.

 

[Camalange]

Off topic, but Cam, that re-write of Smooth Criminal in your sig is amazing.

xD thanks

Rick is too goods.

 

[Zero]

It's impossible to get a unaminous decision out of you guys x_x

So how about we compromise, I'm happy with calling it 57:43. :D

Neutral Pick: Battlefield
Neutral Cancel: FD//Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Brinstar/RC
Ban: Frigate Orpheon

The discussion should be almost done, so thank you so much Camalange and Kinzer, I appreciate your contribution

 

[Camalange]

It's impossible to get a unaminous decision out of you guys x_x

So how about we compromise, I'm happy with calling it 57:43. :D

xD

57:43 is definitley interesting...I don't really care about MU ratios tbh, and this makes me laugh. That works as long as you don't give that out to any other character board ; )

Neutral Pick: Battlefield
Neutral Cancel: FD//Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Brinstar/RC
Ban: Frigate Orpheon

Agreed.

The discussion should be almost done, so thank you so much Camalange and Kinzer, I appreciate your contribution

No problem, we started on a bad note, but I'm glad we could work things out :D

It's apparent both our boards have problems with players not completely understanding the metagame of our characters. We already kinda had this built up anger from past discussions >_>