TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Really wanting to be sneaky and teledash behind the opponent and then grab them, following up with whatever. Any suggestions as to how to do that succesfully/ how fast can you act out of teledash??
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Zelda Social Thread
- Thread starter Muhti
- Start date
jtm94
Smash Lord
My goto stages are Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield isn't bad, Smashville, Poke Stadium 1/2, and Dracula's Castle is TOO GOOD.New Zelda PM main here, decided to pick up zelda after Ivy got nerfed. Just wondering what are decent stages for Zelda, like where should I be CounterPicking? cheers in advance
Also @DarkStarStorm, can you please stop double, triple, and quad posting? Nothing against you, but it's making the thread look more cluttered than it needs to be.
jtm94
Smash Lord
My goto stages are Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield isn't bad, Smashville, Poke Stadium 1/2, and Dracula's Castle is TOO GOOD.New Zelda PM main here, decided to pick up zelda after Ivy got nerfed. Just wondering what are decent stages for Zelda, like where should I be CounterPicking? cheers in advance
Also @DarkStarStorm, can you please stop double, triple, and quad posting? Nothing against you, but it's making the thread look more cluttered than it needs to be.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
Not much. Especially not for it's---unique tech chasing opportunities.
You didn't notice it in our dittos?
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
Not much. Especially not for it's---unique tech chasing opportunities.
You didn't notice it in our dittos?
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
Hey Zeldas, I'm going to be making a post/new thread regarding Zelda preservation and a thanks to the developers. Look for it to appear sometime this Sunday the 19th. Please take a look at it and help contribute. Thanks!
Lol well I was definitely throwing them out. I find it more useful as a defensive tool than for tech chasing though. It would be an interesting tech chase idea, but I think it may be too slow to really be useful. I'll experiment with it though and let you know what I find.
teledash>turngrab or pivot grab (or pivot anything, or RAR aerial)
You can act out of teledash in the same amount of time you could a regular wavedash/waveland which is jumpsquat + 10 frames special landing lag (in zelda's case 5+10 I think, someone correct me)
Also, yes, DarkStarStorm please only post one post at a time. You can click 'Reply' on multiple posts and they will all be added to the post editor, so you don't need to quote each post individually. If you need to add onto your last post just use the Edit button.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
It's really only useful if you already have some out. Not super effective though.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I wish teleport was more useful as an approach. If I face anyone who has a large range attack (Link's Side B) then they really have no reason not to throw out the attack if they think I'm teleporting to them and you end up in it. It is very possible to teleport beyond the distance of their most ranged attack, but it gets difficult vs swordsmen.
I have been trying to get down the act of placing din's on the edge as someone goes to sweetspot it then I try to get in with a Dair. Is this even effective? OR should I be going for just fair/bair? It's at least flashy and I wanna learn it regardless q:
I have been trying to get down the act of placing din's on the edge as someone goes to sweetspot it then I try to get in with a Dair. Is this even effective? OR should I be going for just fair/bair? It's at least flashy and I wanna learn it regardless q:
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
Main write up is done. Currently in the editing process.
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Calzum!
LC | Team Heir
Yo cheers for the Stage advice, going to a national next weekend and thought I'd pick up shiek/Zelda since they made Ivy crap lol, just didn't know what stages she was good on.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Ivy's still good man. I don't mean to persuade, but she may be more viable than Zelda and could at least provide assistance in certain MUs.
So I'm going to assume that Roy and Ike are definitely bad MUs for Zelda because of how ridiculously early she dies. I'm also not saying it was just the character, but Ally was putting in work against Zhime, quickdraw is a pain when they're so aggressive.
Very admirable effort taking Zelda that far in a 400 man tournament though. Props. One last thing to comment on is that I found a lot of the transformations between Sheik/Zelda to be random. I was expecting them to flow smoother into eachother, I may work on that myself.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I would go for the fair. They could just as well see the dair coming and DI to tech it.
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
Thread just went live.
flying_tortoise
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2013
- Messages
- 206
Hey awesome post! I was going to thank you on the other thread but this seems more appropriate.Thread just went live.
Did anyone see how many comments during zhime's matches were "SO OP! NERF!! >:O " so damn annoying. Finally I can merely copy and paste something to shut them up. We don't need anymore nerfs... They're just too lazy to learn.
ON ANOTHER note. Congrats zhime on getting so far, you made Zeldas proud, man.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Would anyone be interested on some stage data I have for Zelda's teleport? This is in the spirit of teleporting while on the stage, and then reappearing right off the stage so you can instagrab the ledge
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
Sure that sounds great and very useful.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I get it when people say that MK was too good, I see where they're coming from, but Zelda, who has obvious weaknesses that slap you in the face. Some people just don't get it, it's not the character, it's the player.
ShadowGanon
Smash Lord
Yeah. Do you know how good it feels to hard read a Zelda's teledash in the first second of a match on Battlefield? Awesome. Let's just say Zelda's face wasn't feeling too good after an aerial Flame Choke into the ground. If Zelda's aren't careful about not being predictable with their teledashes then they get slapped around.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
Or if it's online then they can't mix it up well because they worry that lag will make them mess up the teledash. That's the only reason why it worked on me, Kakarot! Annoying lag, messes up my Zelda.
Dear Sakurai:
Make better online play. Make Smash 4 balanced. Eat a sandwich, and know that you messed up with Brawl, own up to it, and not make those mistakes again.
Sincerely,
Paladin
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DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I'm interested!
jtm94
Smash Lord
Zelda is definitely not OP, I find she's quite the opposite.
She's the type of character that becomes more and more useless as your face higher and higher skilled players because they can get in so easily, so whiffing ANY attack becomes a detriment to Zelda's health.
Her best moves being Nayru's which has invincibility, and Din's Fire being ranged/controlling makes her a pain if you can't deal with it. Then you can capitalize with a Zelda kick and their KOd at 60%.
She's the type of character that becomes more and more useless as your face higher and higher skilled players because they can get in so easily, so whiffing ANY attack becomes a detriment to Zelda's health.
Her best moves being Nayru's which has invincibility, and Din's Fire being ranged/controlling makes her a pain if you can't deal with it. Then you can capitalize with a Zelda kick and their KOd at 60%.
the_irish_dude
SCG TO
how often do you guys use her love jump? situational, or consistently?
jtm94
Smash Lord
I use the love jump situationally.
I don't see much of a point of getting hit upwards and rising even higher up only to delay the inevitable. I guess it can allow you to place an extra dins for a "possible" safe landing, but it doesn't do anything for me.
I'll do it as a little mix-up when I feel it is unexpected, but to do it all the time is meh. Off stage it is significantly better and everyone should try to learn to do it, and occasionally to escape a combo. But sometimes I'll see a Zelda do it when there isn't even pressure and they fly up in the air letting someone get under them,
Half the time when I am getting comboed and they drop the combo that is typically when I land my Zelda kicks. And a lot of the times I'm getting hit I either get KOd, or it's smaller combo hits.
I'm getting frustrated at my friends trying to say Zelda is better than she is. One will play Roy and KO me at around 50-70% on average stages with moderate DI, but then I KO him he doesn't DI in the slightest, and gets upset he died at 50%. OR, he was DIing DOWN because he was crouch cancelling most of my approaches.
Then I will complain about having no approaches or very few of them outside of dash attack ESPECIALLY against a sworded character, we'll then play and he just runs at me, whiffs attacks and I land a Zelda kick and he goes BOOM. He basically sets himself on a tee for Zelda kicks then says I win because my character is broken and he's using a difficult one. I can't really defend it without just saying he's bad so I have to hear it ALL THE TIME. +.+
I don't see much of a point of getting hit upwards and rising even higher up only to delay the inevitable. I guess it can allow you to place an extra dins for a "possible" safe landing, but it doesn't do anything for me.
I'll do it as a little mix-up when I feel it is unexpected, but to do it all the time is meh. Off stage it is significantly better and everyone should try to learn to do it, and occasionally to escape a combo. But sometimes I'll see a Zelda do it when there isn't even pressure and they fly up in the air letting someone get under them,
Half the time when I am getting comboed and they drop the combo that is typically when I land my Zelda kicks. And a lot of the times I'm getting hit I either get KOd, or it's smaller combo hits.
I'm getting frustrated at my friends trying to say Zelda is better than she is. One will play Roy and KO me at around 50-70% on average stages with moderate DI, but then I KO him he doesn't DI in the slightest, and gets upset he died at 50%. OR, he was DIing DOWN because he was crouch cancelling most of my approaches.
Then I will complain about having no approaches or very few of them outside of dash attack ESPECIALLY against a sworded character, we'll then play and he just runs at me, whiffs attacks and I land a Zelda kick and he goes BOOM. He basically sets himself on a tee for Zelda kicks then says I win because my character is broken and he's using a difficult one. I can't really defend it without just saying he's bad so I have to hear it ALL THE TIME. +.+
the_irish_dude
SCG TO
rumor has it they will be changing Zelda alot in the next one... i heard it wont be necessarily buffs or nerfs...but possibly even movesets...
as for the ********... i hear it alot too from people who cant play patiently. people who play patient and avoid dins can usually beat Zelda. those who dont have patience are those who get rocked and complain
as for the ********... i hear it alot too from people who cant play patiently. people who play patient and avoid dins can usually beat Zelda. those who dont have patience are those who get rocked and complain
Where did you hear that? That's rather concerning... Zelda is fine, and destroying her metagame (which has had a longer time than some to develop) would be bad. > _ >
Also, I launched that MU thread idea I had, the thread needs a better name. Right now it is "Triforce of Communication" Because I wanted to get it out there. The first MU is up for discussion too.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
If anything she needs a few buffs, such as: being able to teledash off the re-spawn platform, up b canceling the remainder of it's startup lag when you touch the ground during an aerial one, Nayru's cancel being given back it's old fast canceling ways.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I'm fine with Nayru's land cancel being 4 frames. I don't think it was "needed" to begin with, but I'll accept it.
I also don't think changing her is really that adverse on her meta. I've loved and hated a lot on Zelda, I do think she has issues that pure buffs cannot repair. Just trying to fix her with buffs would definitely make her broken. I just really think she lacks any and all decent movement options, with her slow run speed, floaty nature, and not much faster air speed. I will say that her dash dance is significantly more useful than I first anticipated and is my main means of movement now. Sometimes I get sick of floating near the edge placing dins traps, so her dash dance is a sort of viable way to interact on a character vs character level.
The other issue that I have with her is that so many moves do the same things. USmash is SUPER good and blocks off any aerial approaches, but so can UTilt. USmash has to have knockback growth so you literately can't juggle people indefinitely or combo with it past 30-50 unless on Fox/Falco. UTilt is a straight out KO move. They LOWERED the knockback growth of FTilt and I still find myself getting KOs from it, but I guess if it always comboed into kicks it would be guaranteed death unless DI is used, not sure if that's good or not. The jab is really cool and all being fast, but it serves random purposes and is underused, though it is a jab. DTilt is almost never used and I see very few situations where I could have even used it. Nair is cool for poking through the bottom of platforms, but offers no combo potential and sends away.
I don't know how to feel. I don't want Zelda to be a combo machine, I just don't like the sense of how some moves SHOULD be used at certain times over others because their uses feel set in stone. I'll still try to play her regardless of what happens, and at worst she could just be changed back to how she is now if the changes aren't in agreement.
I also don't think changing her is really that adverse on her meta. I've loved and hated a lot on Zelda, I do think she has issues that pure buffs cannot repair. Just trying to fix her with buffs would definitely make her broken. I just really think she lacks any and all decent movement options, with her slow run speed, floaty nature, and not much faster air speed. I will say that her dash dance is significantly more useful than I first anticipated and is my main means of movement now. Sometimes I get sick of floating near the edge placing dins traps, so her dash dance is a sort of viable way to interact on a character vs character level.
The other issue that I have with her is that so many moves do the same things. USmash is SUPER good and blocks off any aerial approaches, but so can UTilt. USmash has to have knockback growth so you literately can't juggle people indefinitely or combo with it past 30-50 unless on Fox/Falco. UTilt is a straight out KO move. They LOWERED the knockback growth of FTilt and I still find myself getting KOs from it, but I guess if it always comboed into kicks it would be guaranteed death unless DI is used, not sure if that's good or not. The jab is really cool and all being fast, but it serves random purposes and is underused, though it is a jab. DTilt is almost never used and I see very few situations where I could have even used it. Nair is cool for poking through the bottom of platforms, but offers no combo potential and sends away.
I don't know how to feel. I don't want Zelda to be a combo machine, I just don't like the sense of how some moves SHOULD be used at certain times over others because their uses feel set in stone. I'll still try to play her regardless of what happens, and at worst she could just be changed back to how she is now if the changes aren't in agreement.
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
I think that the only thing she needs are the things I suggested. Just my opinion.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Metal Cavern
Right edge: Start under middle platform, literally right under the middle of it. There should be two green lights on the floor to your right.
Left edge: Beginning of bottom of slope.
Halberd
Little platform (not the ship)
This one is weird. For both edges, you don't grab the ledge, but you do get a second jump to use.
Left edge: Start teleport between two metal posts on right side.
Right edge: Start teleport between the two metal posts on the left side.
Ship
Left edge: See where the designs next to carpet are? Start teleport on the left set of those designs to reach the edge.
Right edge: Same thing, but start on right set.
Norfair
Left edge: to the right of the center of the stage, the second purple platform with a blue light under it. Start on this and teleport to the left to hit the left edge.
Right edge: Same thing, but use the second purple platform on the left.
(Not actual platforms, but part of the lower segment of the stage, there are purple objects with blue lights under them. Use the ones that have a more square shaped light)
This is what I have so far. Someone teach me how to put a spoiler in please.
Right edge: Start under middle platform, literally right under the middle of it. There should be two green lights on the floor to your right.
Left edge: Beginning of bottom of slope.
Halberd
Little platform (not the ship)
This one is weird. For both edges, you don't grab the ledge, but you do get a second jump to use.
Left edge: Start teleport between two metal posts on right side.
Right edge: Start teleport between the two metal posts on the left side.
Ship
Left edge: See where the designs next to carpet are? Start teleport on the left set of those designs to reach the edge.
Right edge: Same thing, but start on right set.
Norfair
Left edge: to the right of the center of the stage, the second purple platform with a blue light under it. Start on this and teleport to the left to hit the left edge.
Right edge: Same thing, but use the second purple platform on the left.
(Not actual platforms, but part of the lower segment of the stage, there are purple objects with blue lights under them. Use the ones that have a more square shaped light)
This is what I have so far. Someone teach me how to put a spoiler in please.
utilt can only combo at really low percent, and at that, it's quite DI-dependent. usmash is far more reliable for comboing. They can both be used as anti-air but the similarities end there... they don't really "do the same thing." For instance, try punishing a roll with utilt. Then try it with usmash.
You emphasized "lowered" in regards to ftilt as if that's a bad thing. Lowering the KBG of ftilt was actually a BUFF for Zelda, because it means that you can combo out of it far more reliably over a larger range of percents. (read: you can ftilt>kick much more reliably, which is why they also tweaked her kicks in 3.0)
Jab is good for shield pressure due to large disjoint and low endlag. It functions decently as a reversal when well-spaced for the same reasons. Sometimes you can combo jab into ftilt (try this on shields for max fun!) or an aerial, and it also gives you a safe opening to teleport somewhere.
use dtilt in situations where you want to ftilt but they're shielding or at too high % to get a reliable followup (around where dtilt will knock over your opponent and give you a free followup, like utilt)
nair does offer combo potential because it has low endlag, try nair>kick or setting up a din's trap.
Zelda is a combo machine if you play her right... her greatest strength is her punish game.
And as with any character, yes, using the correct move at the correct time will win you tournaments...
jtm94
Smash Lord
You could still punish a roll. I was saying they're both good anti-air moves, one KO's faster than the other, and utilt reaches lower.utilt can only combo at really low percent, and at that, it's quite DI-dependent. usmash is far more reliable for comboing. They can both be used as anti-air but the similarities end there... they don't really "do the same thing." For instance, try punishing a roll with utilt. Then try it with usmash.
You emphasized "lowered" in regards to ftilt as if that's a bad thing. Lowering the KBG of ftilt was actually a BUFF for Zelda, because it means that you can combo out of it far more reliably over a larger range of percents. (read: you can ftilt>kick much more reliably, which is why they also tweaked her kicks in 3.0)
Jab is good for shield pressure due to large disjoint and low endlag. It functions decently as a reversal when well-spaced for the same reasons. Sometimes you can combo jab into ftilt (try this on shields for max fun!) or an aerial, and it also gives you a safe opening to teleport somewhere.
use dtilt in situations where you want to ftilt but they're shielding or at too high % to get a reliable followup (around where dtilt will knock over your opponent and give you a free followup, like utilt)
nair does offer combo potential because it has low endlag, try nair>kick or setting up a din's trap.
Zelda is a combo machine if you play her right... her greatest strength is her punish game.
And as with any character, yes, using the correct move at the correct time will win you tournaments...
I emphasized "lowered" because they lowered it, and I will still get KOs straight of of the different parts of ftilt at 80ish%. That is still too much knockback in my taste. I will agree it is MILES better than the onld ftilt that KOd floaties faster than utilt.
I didn't really have to complain about jab, because it is a jab and they typically go underused with some characters. I will respect it's speed and disjoint.
That situation for dtilt "rarely" comes up, but I will try it out and stay more mindful as to put it to use.
What % can you follow Nair with a kick at?? I have never got a direct combo off of Nair more than once or twice, and it was because they flew higher than normal and I could catch them with Usmash. Other than that I can only capitalize on it with a tech chase.
I do play her to punish, but as I have stated on this thread numerous times is how reliant she is on that, and that playing much higher skilled players will not allow the opportunity to punish anywhere near as much as it would be allowed in casuals or against friends. I can get in on Roy for about 60% damage and end with a kick then kick him out of UpB. It just feels so linear that I will do nearly the same thing every time and I think it makes Zelda look cheap which I dislike strongly.
I really enjoy talking about the fine points of the character because I think about them often when I play.
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
You should tell him to look at my new thread. lol
DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
DI is something I need help with, I just don't feel like I'm doing it correctly.
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
I mean there are some general rules, but some of the moves are just wonky and you really have to experiment with them.
flying_tortoise
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2013
- Messages
- 206
Yeah I heard from online play as well. Its harsh man, extremely discouraging that if your loud enough you get what you want...no matter what it is...
Btw I posted your thread whitelightnin on a fb group for my area, idk mb word will spread...but like zelda in socal seems like an endangered species lol.
Well i just found out i think 2 months ago that I was DI'ing wrong lolol. So I am probably still bad at it. are all the DI'ing techniques from melee in PM? like quarter-circle (most complex one I know off the head).
jtm94
Smash Lord
Speaking more with other Zeldas makes me not want her to get any extensive changes.
I want to try to wifi some of you guys to get some more experience.
I want to try to wifi some of you guys to get some more experience.
WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
I just realized I never posted the link for the thread in this social for those who may not have the entire Zelda forum on alert. lol Please contribute Zeldas!!!
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-balance-and-mu-learning.346283/
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-balance-and-mu-learning.346283/
Yeah pretty sure it is still in. Thank you so much for doing that flying_tortoise. That is another one of my reasons for creating that thread is that I want all voices out there to be heard. It's just human nature to make a big deal about something you don't like so for those who are happy we have to make sure we speak up too. Otherwise it will seem pretty one sided which is clearly erroneous at this point.
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DarkStarStorm
Smash Ace
When did you hear about these changes? Where?
ShadowGanon
Smash Lord
To put a spoiler in your post put [ collapse ] at the beginning of what you want to be in the spoiler and put [/ collapse] at the end of what you want to be in the spoiler (no spaces). You can also name your spoiler like this [ collapse=name] Put anything here. [/ collapse]. Once again, no spaces.