Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Codebox]

I'm interested so see if patches would effect characters. Maybe not? If so what patches would you like for Zelda to have?

 

[Eremitaviola]

I'm interested so see if patches would effect characters. Maybe not? If so what patches would you like for Zelda to have?

I'm probably just still bad but with how much time I have to wait before inputting Nair I can't really do it and also move during a shorthop, so a bit more horizontal speed in the air would be great. Also I know she's defensive but a bit of run speed to at least try combos would probably help too. I just want Zelda in high tier in any way it can be helped

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

So an update for you gorls. I won a tournament at a release party for Ultimate as yours truly . Also just played her Online in Quick Play for an hour and didn't lose a single match and unlocked Elite Smash for her, so yay? I guess?
First Impressions:

• Phantom is your BFF (mostly after jumping back and reversing it toward your opponent) and allows for lots of mixups and easier spacing and security.
• Din's Fire is no longer Din's Failure
• You can drift a lot more with Nayru's Love in the air, idk if I can see a use for it yet.
• Dtilt angle nerfs and almost everyone popping out of Nair have put me in a sexy French depression.
• All aerials feel arguably better to use, most notably Uair.
• She's one of the few characters I've noticed to keep her Dthrow combos, and she really needed it.

It really does seem like our Princess has a much better shot this time around. Right off the bat the new Phantom alone made her feel better than she ever has. Now all they have to do is fix Nair and make Dtilt less useless and we've got ourselves a solid mid tier... Hopefully.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I'm interested so see if patches would effect characters. Maybe not? If so what patches would you like for Zelda to have?

To be honest, I'd give up any future buffs for a guarantee that phantom doesn't get nerfed.

 

[EODM07]

I find it amusing how Persona now has a connection to Smash with both its announcer and protagonist.

Also, if they plan on doing patches; they could go the ArcSys route and just buff everyone. Since they did that in Guilty Gear and BBTAG (Though that made Ruby even more of a stupid character to play against).

Anyway, how is it going Floaty Zelda mains?

Seriously, Zelda feels floaty to me then she did in Smash 4. Must be the engine.

Also, who here is looking forward to Book III of FEH? Just thought I'd mention since I know we got some Fire Emblem fans here. (Then again, it's kind of hard to please Fire Emblem fans, since they say that every game in the series is bad).

And it might be time for me to change my signature since we've onto Ultimate.

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[Codebox]

To be honest, I'd give up any future buffs for a guarantee that phantom doesn't get nerfed.

You do have a point. Phantom loss would hugely downgrade Zelda.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Barring Phantom, Zelda's still fundamentally the same character. So any problems she had in Smash 4 will
be worse in Ultimate due to the engine changes. I think Ultimate made her weaknesses more extreme
and her mobility is relatively the same as it was in Smash 4 when compared to the rest of the cast.

You do have a point. Phantom loss would hugely downgrade Zelda.

Its pretty much her life line.

 

[Codebox]

Its pretty much her life line.

It's pretty much her Pink Fairy in a bottle. I very much agree. Can't wait to see crazy Phantom stuff.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Barring Phantom, Zelda's still fundamentally the same character. So any problems she had in Smash 4 will
be worse in Ultimate due to the engine changes. I think Ultimate made her weaknesses more extreme
and her mobility is relatively the same as it was in Smash 4 when compared to the rest of the cast.

I mean she doesnt have the life alert landing lag on all her aerials like smash 4 tho, whiffing a kick and landing isnt so harsh anymore lol.

 

[.Shìkì]

I'm interested so see if patches would effect characters. Maybe not? If so what patches would you like for Zelda to have?

All I want is for them to fix whatever makes UAir wonky, and maybe return DTilt back to smash 4 version. But yeah, as long as phantom stays I can deal with the wonkyness and no combos from DTilt.

 

[BJN39]

I mean she doesnt have the life alert landing lag on all her aerials

Life alert...ded. Now I just need that comic strip one gorl here made where Zelda misses LK and just lays there and says “what is life...”

I saw the 1.2.0 patch notification and thought wow, already! But for patches, just fix her multihits again for starters, it really shouldn’t be that hard. They could also readd her patch on Ftilt making it hit faster just because it’s weird to revert that, but otherwise really just don’t nerf her, like, Sakurai team you may have gotten Zelda actually right this time, don’t m e s s i t u p.

For personal patch desires, if FAir could autocancel 1-2F earlier she could SHAC FAir. That would be godly. I also wouldn’t mind seeing real pushback on her single jab second hit because it’s awkward that it has 0 KB or hitstun. It transitions into rapid hits fast enough that fallout shouldn’t be an issue as long as the pushback isn’t huge.

 

[Brinzy]

Long time, no see. Glad things are still exciting here!

To be honest, I'd give up any future buffs for a guarantee that phantom doesn't get nerfed.

I don't see why it'd ever get nerfed. The ability isn't gamebreaking overall. It's just good on a bad character.

Also, who here is looking forward to Book III of FEH? Just thought I'd mention since I know we got some Fire Emblem fans here.

I'm burned out on that game. I spent quite a bit of money on it and have +10s of my favorites. I'm basically done.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Life alert...ded. Now I just need that comic strip one gorl here made where Zelda misses LK and just lays there and says “what is life...”

Ooo, I remember that strip, it would be perfect lol

I saw the 1.2.0 patch notification and thought wow, already! But for patches, just fix her multihits again for starters, it really shouldn’t be that hard. They could also readd her patch on Ftilt making it hit faster just because it’s weird to revert that, but otherwise really just don’t nerf her, like, Sakurai team you may have gotten Zelda actually right this time, don’t m e s s i t u p.

For personal patch desires, if FAir could autocancel 1-2F earlier she could SHAC FAir. That would be godly. I also wouldn’t mind seeing real pushback on her single jab second hit because it’s awkward that it has 0 KB or hitstun. It transitions into rapid hits fast enough that fallout shouldn’t be an issue as long as the pushback isn’t huge.

I havent spent enough time on Zelda yet ,juggling daisy so I dont have a big list yet.

 

[Aussie1024]

So an update for you gorls. I won a tournament at a release party for Ultimate as yours truly . Also just played her Online in Quick Play for an hour and didn't lose a single match and unlocked Elite Smash for her, so yay? I guess?
First Impressions:

• Phantom is your BFF (mostly after jumping back and reversing it toward your opponent) and allows for lots of mixups and easier spacing and security.
• Din's Fire is no longer Din's Failure
• You can drift a lot more with Nayru's Love in the air, idk if I can see a use for it yet.
• Dtilt angle nerfs and almost everyone popping out of Nair have put me in a sexy French depression.
• All aerials feel arguably better to use, most notably Uair.
• She's one of the few characters I've noticed to keep her Dthrow combos, and she really needed it.

It really does seem like our Princess has a much better shot this time around. Right off the bat the new Phantom alone made her feel better than she ever has. Now all they have to do is fix Nair and make Dtilt less useless and we've got ourselves a solid mid tier... Hopefully.

I agree with a lot of your observations. I think she has some solid tools that can make her a good mid-tier. I still need to really work on Phantom and utilize it to the best of my ability, but I've seen people put it to good use. While Din's still has a weird hitbox, the fact that it is more maneuverable makes it better to use. Her aerials feel so much better to use. Although they're not safe on shield, they do feel better to land. I've been having great success landing her lightning kicks, especially on a short hop. Her Nair is also great out of a D-Throw. The lightning kick out of D-Throw is also good when doing it at the right angle.

I'm hoping in future patches they make D-Tilt more useful as well. Maybe have her kick stick out a short line of magic that can trip up the opponent? It's the only thing I can think of. Don't know if anyone else has any other suggestions.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I haven't posted in a few days so I'll skip the FEH new-flying waifu and OW's amazing legendary winter skins to discuss what's truly important.

SMASHUUUUUUU

I've been slowly unlocking characters because I've been playing mostly Spirit Boards and slowly unlocking through that. It's a fun system. The Classic Mode is perfect with the worst part being the bonus stage. It's so grueling to do that thing every single time. I wish they did Target Smash or just had a bonus stage that was relaxing (to break up the fighting stuff).

Zelda feels better all across the board, but it's still not enough. All of her special tools are very punishing, as they should be, and they don't have stupid draw-backs anymore. She could use slightly more range on Usmash/Fsmash/Dsmash/Phantom Knight travel path by 5%-10% just to match the large scale of most maps. Or at least have the lingering initial hitboxes of Usmash/Fsmash have the same size as the final hitbox and a (fixed).

But... Other characters just feel so much better when I compare their changes to Zelda's changes. And the funny thing is some of them just had angle adjustments or mild increases to reach. WFT feels amazing, even with reach still being an issue and the horrendous grabs. Robin feels amazing but he isn't as slow-feeling overall (and the hair change makes him so much cuter tbh). Jigglypuff feels like a threat whenever she's off the ground now, even with some OK close-quarter ground options. Peach is amazing (but she's always been perfectly balanced/mid-tier except for Melee ofc).

As for previous OP characters, they are tuned down enough so they aren't so oppressively annoying. Then K Rool comes along and pretty much has every form of cheese imaginable that's easily abusable in laggier situations. Heavy character with intense recovery. Reflects. Extreme smash attacks with powerful armor. Great reach. Powerful medium speed projectile. CUCC N SUCC mechanic x2 (his projectile or enemies). Like...???

Barring Phantom, Zelda's still fundamentally the same character. So any problems she had in Smash 4 will
be worse in Ultimate due to the engine changes. I think Ultimate made her weaknesses more extreme
and her mobility is relatively the same as it was in Smash 4 when compared to the rest of the cast.

That is until you take into consideration that her problems in Sm4sh were partly thanks to how easy everything was to dodge even if she has the upper hand. Mass dodging gets punished and there's only 1 aerial dodge. That in itself means she isn't playing a Spirit Board-esque minigame every time she's trying to land a L-kick or D-air. It's just a shame her Dsmash is still too small (for some reason) to actually punish rolling properly. But at least her edge guard game is safe and solid (she doesn't have to go off stage at all, and if she does, she has that awesome Dair of hers to use).

The angles are very lame too. Marth's tippers are pretty much Lightning Kick-ish, but Zelda's everything still has angles (or not enough KB) that gives the enemy another chance despite flinging them. Meanwhile Marth's just ez-KOing everyone at 40%-60% with his tippers.

 

[Ffamran]

More bugs!

Chrom, Roy, Marth, and Lucina cannot dash grab ROB when he's shielding no matter what direction he's facing. The only way they can grab him is if they dash grab him when he's at the ledge (so he can't be pushed back) or if they standing grab him. pic.twitter.com/WBgFpVoov2

— Amari (@Bozzy_D) December 12, 2018

This game seems really messed up. It kind of makes sense since there's +70 characters and bunch of other stuff on top of that, but this feels like a very basic thing that shouldn't have happened.

 

[Daidarapochi]

Not even the developers play ROB.

Some small thoughts. Squirtle is definitely the trouble child of the 3 PT options.

Wolf is a ton of fun but god do I wish his recovery was even a LITTLE better.

 

[Lorde]

I’ve been playing through the World of Light for the past few days. The first time I played it, I thought it was just a trash mode, but it’s actually pretty fun. It’s cool how many individual spirits they made unique battles for. I’ve been using mostly Ivysaur now, but I played through most of the beginning as Sheik and then as Bowser. It’s crazy how long WoL is, too.

 

[Ffamran]

I am very, very curious about what they did or perhaps didn't do to Falco's Nair and by extension, Zelda's Nair. I'm still leaning towards Falco's Nair loop hits not having auto-link angles anymore because whenever I see people use it and move with Falco, the opponent doesn't really move at all. Even when the Falco player doesn't move much or at all, if you hit with it in certain spots, it can drop people. The hit stun the loop hits deal also seem kind of low where I think it kind of makes it look like the loop hits are faster compared to in Brawl and Smash 4, especially Smash 4 where the loop hits were pretty meaty.

On the flipside, we have Samus's Uair and its loop hits connects way better where I think it probably does have auto-link angles for some of its hitboxes. For all intents and purposes, Smash 4 Samus's Uair and Sheik's Uair were almost the same except that Samus's didn't have auto-link angles for its loop hits while Sheik's did and Sheik's loop hits also used a rehit rate rather than individual frame data for the loop hits, Samus's had lower landing lag, 12 frames, than Sheik's, 21 frames, and Samus's had a better auto-cancel with regards to her jump where she could auto-cancel it from a hop while Sheik couldn't with hers. You'd think with everyone having lower landing lag that Samus's Uair would just keep its landing data while keeping a better connection, but nope, it has 18 landing frames now and Sheik's went down to 13 because reasons. I don't know if Samus can still auto-cancel her Uair, but regardless, that kind of sucks.

Ultimate's starting out as being odd in places where some changes just make me wonder what the developers were thinking. Samus's jab for instance feels like such a simple concept by now if they wanted it be able to link into other moves or act as a mixup. So, when I refer to linking, I mean that it doesn't actually combo where you can't escape it no matter what or string where you can escape it depending on DI, damage, and so on into other moves, but that its hit stun is high enough and its recovery low enough that you could, for example, link jab 1 to Ftilt or Dtilt if you time the next move fast enough or you could mixup into jab 2 or something else slower. In Smash 4, they could have just upped the base knockback so that it did enough hit stun and reduced the growth so it doesn't do anything more beyond jab at higher percents and different hit angles would have helped, but they didn't do that and it had its weird 8 base and 100 growth. What I just described they could have done to Samus's jab 1 is Fox's jab 1. Fox's jab 1 and jab 2 were tuned so well that it did let him link into and mixup into other moves well. Another example is Marth and Lucina's jab 1 change where they decided to not carry that over into Ultimate and instead now it's back to its old self and if I recall correctly, Marth's tipper jab 1 was tuned badly enough that it won't lead to tipper jab 2, but cause it to hit with the sourspot.

Not related to how the game works itself, but how people are playing it and I feel like people really need to abuse the dash/run cancel mechanic more. Characters have abusive aerials, especially with landing lag being much lower in this game than in previous ones along with having good auto-cancel windows depending on the move, but they now also have abusive ground normals. I've been watching Larry Lurr play Falco way too much where it's kind of hilarious that he's been playing Falco a lot on stream and he said he likes characters who have good dash attacks. Falco's dash attack is okay, but it's not Fox's or his pre-Smash 4 dash attack that was frame 4 like Fox's. He also said that Utilt out of run is good and while he does use it when he can because Utilt doesn't have a lot of horizontal range, I wished he used Ftilt and Dtilt, especially Dtilt, out of dash and run with Falco more and maybe Fox and Wolf which I haven't seen enough of his gameplay of them to say anything about that. Even though it's 3 frames slower on startup now, Falco's Dtilt is still a nasty move and I could see someone with good spacing use it like Ike's or Link's. This stupid thing now does around 12% with its tipper sourspot, 15% with the middle sourspot, and around 16% with its sweetspot in 1v1 and with no items. Even if you can only land the tipper sourspot and its hit angle being not as good as Utilt, you're still doing a lot of damage and launching an opponent for Falco to follow up on. The fact it's a natural disjoint because it uses Falco's tail makes it even dumber. Still would have preferred Melee's style of hitboxes, but 16% or 15% for all its hitboxes would probably be too much even if the knockback values were different, weaker as they're further away from his body.

 

[Cress!]

I didn't get Ultimate yet but I got 2 other much better things. Katamari Damacy Reroll, and a shirt of Tressa from Octopath even tho I don't even have Octopath yet either.

Also I finally fixed Overwatch (for the last few months I'd get an error saying "Your rendering device has been lost! Application closing." in the middle of games and I lost basically all of the endorsements I had so now I gotta start from level 1 again smh) so it's snowball fight tiem.

As for previous OP characters, they are tuned down enough so they aren't so oppressively annoying. Then K Rool comes along and pretty much has every form of cheese imaginable that's easily abusable in laggier situations. Heavy character with intense recovery. Reflects. Extreme smash attacks with powerful armor. Great reach. Powerful medium speed projectile. CUCC N SUCC mechanic x2 (his projectile or enemies). Like...???

have u tried yoga lady

Wii Fit Trainer breaks K.Rools Belly Armor in 1 hit with Side-B.

I traded with a K.Rool Nair twice with Side B and both times it broke with no prior damage to the armor

that's. OD.

— PAR | TKbreezy 🎙️ (@TKbreezy) December 11, 2018

it has to be with both the ball and ur head but it's possible to insta-break it.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I mean she doesnt have the life alert landing lag on all her aerials like smash 4 tho, whiffing a kick and landing isnt so harsh anymore lol.

Smash 64 - Pikachu, Melee - Fox, Brawl - Metaknight, 4 - Bayonetta, Ultimate - Pikachu(?).

The things these characters have in common is speed and aerials. What separates Smash from other fighting games,
is unrestricted movement and aerial mobility. Fundamentals such as spacing and movement are going to have much more importance
than a traditional fighting game. The things that affect spacing boil down to two things: speed and range.

Speed is needed to beat your opponent to an advantageous position. Range is needed to intercept your opponent, preventing them
from taking the advantage. All the top tiers tend to have one if not both of those things. If a character has poor speed then
range is need to prevent the opponent from taking the advantage, like center stage. High level play is not about fancy combos,
sick reads, or insane high-risk high-reward crowd pleasers. It's largely a battle of space and movement. The things a character
needs to be good in smash are speed, range and aerial superiority. In Smash aerials are quicker and allow you to move while attacking.
Thus short hop aerials have become an essential part of the meta, like ground movement tech(dash dancing, wavedashing, etc).

All of these have the same goal of affecting space and are a fundamental part of what Smash is. Regardless of engine or mechanics,
all Smash games have these fundamentals and characters need to have these tools to do well. Characters that have them dominate,
characters that don't remain bottom tier. Heavys have traditionally suffered because they didn't have the speed and aerials to
compete. Zelda is in a similar bind because she lacks speed, range and has lacking aerials. Frame data is all well and good, but
if you can't maneuver into a safe position to attack it's pointless. If Zelda and Cloud had a race to center stage, Cloud
would get their first and preemptively attack, preventing Zelda's advance. Zelda then needs range to intercept, preventing
the advantage. She doesn't so she can't do anything and that sets the pace of the match. Cloud will always beat her to
every position and if by some miracle Zelda gets the jump on Cloud he can use his range to intercept. This results in
Zelda always having to take the inferior position and eventually Cloud will have her right where he wants her.

She's bottom tier not because her moves are laggy but because she lacks the tools to control space. No amount of frame
buffs will change that. You can make her aerials frame one, instantly KO, and have nair do 50 and KO at 90 but that doesn't
matter if she can't hit Cloud. So long as Cloud properly spaces he has no fear of ever being hit, because Zelda cannot
challenge his range or speed. Zelda is in the bottom quarter for speed and among the shortest of ranges. Lots of characters
can easily outspeed and outrange her regardless of their tier. Even Jigglypuff outsped and outranged her and was only
under because the slightest breeze would KO her. Zelda is a fundamentally bad character, because her moveset is not
conducive to the fundamentals of Smash. Frame buffs can't change her base speed and mobility or significantly affect
her range. She was bottom tier since her debut and will be so in future Smash games unless she is redesigned or buffed
to the point of ridiculousness. Ultimate takes the current meta and makes it official by building it directly into the
engine. Characters aren't being buffed so much as streamlined and pushed toward an average or standard. Short hops and dash dancing
are being made universal so no character has any advantage or disadvantage in the meta. This is what allows heavys to be viable.

However character speed and mobility are still the same relative to where they were. Fast characters are still fast and heavys
are still relatively slower. That goes for Zelda as well. As Lil Puddin pointed out Zelda still suffers from inherent weaknesses
in her moveset. They still lack range, need precision, and are unsafe on whiff or sour spot. A character like Marth has everything
Zelda's fair has without any of weaknesses, as well as large disjoints and faster frame data. Zelda's weakness is inherent in her
moves not necessarily their speed and lack the special properties and versatility other characters have. Marth's neutral air can
space, combo, and KO. Zelda's aerials have very limited use. To me Zelda's moves always felt like an amalgamation of KO moves and
finishers with no setup. And since she lacks the ability to control space she can't manipulate her opponent for the setup. You
just kind of have to throw things out and hope they connect. She needs a redesign on a fundamental level in order to be a
proper Smash character. And while she's largely the same, one of her moves did get a redesign and it looks like it might flip her
meta on its head.

I don't see why it'd ever get nerfed. The ability isn't gamebreaking overall. It's just good on a bad character.

I'm still salty about Smash 4 Robin's wind jab being nerfed. It was her only good ground move and now anyone can half-heartedly
swipe in the vicinity of the controller and successfully sdi out of the shortest duration then punish. It's not exactly
unprecedented for good moves to be nerfed on not so good characters. We are kind of a nerf happy community after all.

 

[Codebox]

Smash 64 - Pikachu, Melee - Fox, Brawl - Metaknight, 4 - Bayonetta, Ultimate - Pikachu(?).

The things these characters have in common is speed and aerials. What separates Smash from other fighting games,
is unrestricted movement and aerial mobility. Fundamentals such as spacing and movement are going to have much more importance
than a traditional fighting game. The things that affect spacing boil down to two things: speed and range.

Speed is needed to beat your opponent to an advantageous position. Range is needed to intercept your opponent, preventing them
from taking the advantage. All the top tiers tend to have one if not both of those things. If a character has poor speed then
range is need to prevent the opponent from taking the advantage, like center stage. High level play is not about fancy combos,
sick reads, or insane high-risk high-reward crowd pleasers. It's largely a battle of space and movement. The things a character
needs to be good in smash are speed, range and aerial superiority. In Smash aerials are quicker and allow you to move while attacking.
Thus short hop aerials have become an essential part of the meta, like ground movement tech(dash dancing, wavedashing, etc).

All of these have the same goal of affecting space and are a fundamental part of what Smash is. Regardless of engine or mechanics,
all Smash games have these fundamentals and characters need to have these tools to do well. Characters that have them dominate,
characters that don't remain bottom tier. Heavys have traditionally suffered because they didn't have the speed and aerials to
compete. Zelda is in a similar bind because she lacks speed, range and has lacking aerials. Frame data is all well and good, but
if you can't maneuver into a safe position to attack it's pointless. If Zelda and Cloud had a race to center stage, Cloud
would get their first and preemptively attack, preventing Zelda's advance. Zelda then needs range to intercept, preventing
the advantage. She doesn't so she can't do anything and that sets the pace of the match. Cloud will always beat her to
every position and if by some miracle Zelda gets the jump on Cloud he can use his range to intercept. This results in
Zelda always having to take the inferior position and eventually Cloud will have her right where he wants her.

She's bottom tier not because her moves are laggy but because she lacks the tools to control space. No amount of frame
buffs will change that. You can make her aerials frame one, instantly KO, and have nair do 50 and KO at 90 but that doesn't
matter if she can't hit Cloud. So long as Cloud properly spaces he has no fear of ever being hit, because Zelda cannot
challenge his range or speed. Zelda is in the bottom quarter for speed and among the shortest of ranges. Lots of characters
can easily outspeed and outrange her regardless of their tier. Even Jigglypuff outsped and outranged her and was only
under because the slightest breeze would KO her. Zelda is a fundamentally bad character, because her moveset is not
conducive to the fundamentals of Smash. Frame buffs can't change her base speed and mobility or significantly affect
her range. She was bottom tier since her debut and will be so in future Smash games unless she is redesigned or buffed
to the point of ridiculousness. Ultimate takes the current meta and makes it official by building it directly into the
engine. Characters aren't being buffed so much as streamlined and pushed toward an average or standard. Short hops and dash dancing
are being made universal so no character has any advantage or disadvantage in the meta. This is what allows heavys to be viable.

However character speed and mobility are still the same relative to where they were. Fast characters are still fast and heavys
are still relatively slower. That goes for Zelda as well. As Lil Puddin pointed out Zelda still suffers from inherent weaknesses
in her moveset. They still lack range, need precision, and are unsafe on whiff or sour spot. A character like Marth has everything
Zelda's fair has without any of weaknesses, as well as large disjoints and faster frame data. Zelda's weakness is inherent in her
moves not necessarily their speed and lack the special properties and versatility other characters have. Marth's neutral air can
space, combo, and KO. Zelda's aerials have very limited use. To me Zelda's moves always felt like an amalgamation of KO moves and
finishers with no setup. And since she lacks the ability to control space she can't manipulate her opponent for the setup. You
just kind of have to throw things out and hope they connect. She needs a redesign on a fundamental level in order to be a
proper Smash character. And while she's largely the same, one of her moves did get a redesign and it looks like it might flip her
meta on its head.



I'm still salty about Smash 4 Robin's wind jab being nerfed. It was her only good ground move and now anyone can half-heartedly
swipe in the vicinity of the controller and successfully sdi out of the shortest duration then punish. It's not exactly
unprecedented for good moves to be nerfed on not so good characters. We are kind of a nerf happy community after all.

Wasn't Robin the slowest character in Smash 4 in terms of run speed? Yes Robin had tools to keep him out of bottom tier, but it doesn't change the fact his run speed is the worst, yet Robin is mid tier in Smash 4.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Robin's play is a little difficult to grasp, but her run speed wasn't a problem once you fully understood what Robin was about.
Robin was more about concocting strategies on the fly to manipulate your opponent where you need them to be.
You don't want chase your opponent, but force them to move in a certain way, so you can get around that slow speed.

For example if your opponent is blitzing, arcthunder is basically like a shotgun and will catch anyone in your face.
Your opponent will either have to shield or be caught in arcthunder. If they shield, the lightning properties will
trap them in shield stun allowing you to grab. If they get hit you can combo either into a grab or a levin sword aerial.
Essentially you want to set things up in a way that you have multiple ways to attack with only one move. Think Chess.

Another example would be a character like Falcon who camps with movement when aggression doesn't work.
To match that speed you would have to have a well-placed arcfire at specific points. With that, you slowly wittle away
the space Falcon has to work with and eventually you will either trap him at the ledge or catch one of his landings
with arcfire. Robin was about utilizing all of their tools and fully understanding every detail about Robin and Their
opponent in order to manipulate space and trap them. Run speed wasn't an issue because Robin's projectiles are an
extension of them and levin sword was ridiculous in its range and priority.

What was an issue was Robin's projectiles, despite being traps, were easy to get out of and thus not particularly useful.
Even the infamous arcthunder could be sdi'd, although that was not well known. I believe Esam has a video demonstrating that.
Add on that they were linear and could easily be jumped over, Robin's ground game was poor outside down smash (which I forgot was her other good ground move) and her jump squat was frame 7 she ended being mid tier when she could have easily been high tier.
To me Robin felt like the perfectly balanced character everyone wants, put with low tier stats and all of her moves having a
counter to them. And she was tied with Jigglypuff with the slowest run speed IIRC.

 

[Codebox]

Robin's play is a little difficult to grasp, but her run speed wasn't a problem once you fully understood what Robin was about.
Robin was more about concocting strategies on the fly to manipulate your opponent where you need them to be.
You don't want chase your opponent, but force them to move in a certain way, so you can get around that slow speed.

For example if your opponent is blitzing, arcthunder is basically like a shotgun and will catch anyone in your face.
Your opponent will either have to shield or be caught in arcthunder. If they shield, the lightning properties will
trap them in shield stun allowing you to grab. If they get hit you can combo either into a grab or a levin sword aerial.
Essentially you want to set things up in a way that you have multiple ways to attack with only one move. Think Chess.

Another example would be a character like Falcon who camps with movement when aggression doesn't work.
To match that speed you would have to have a well-placed arcfire at specific points. With that, you slowly wittle away
the space Falcon has to work with and eventually you will either trap him at the ledge or catch one of his landings
with arcfire. Robin was about utilizing all of their tools and fully understanding every detail about Robin and Their
opponent in order to manipulate space and trap them. Run speed wasn't an issue because Robin's projectiles are an
extension of them and levin sword was ridiculous in its range and priority.

What was an issue was Robin's projectiles, despite being traps, were easy to get out of and thus not particularly useful.
Even the infamous arcthunder could be sdi'd, although that was not well known. I believe Esam has a video demonstrating that.
Add on that they were linear and could easily be jumped over, Robin's ground game was poor outside down smash (which I forgot was her other good ground move) and her jump squat was frame 7 she ended being mid tier when she could have easily been high tier.
To me Robin felt like the perfectly balanced character everyone wants, put with low tier stats and all of her moves having a
counter to them. And she was tied with Jigglypuff with the slowest run speed IIRC.

That is a good point. If Zelda had the same fundamentals applied her slow speed wouldn't matter as much. She just needs tool to augment her slow speed as well as consistent combos and better range. I mean Zelda's defining attribute in terms of playstyle is a wall, she's not designed to be fast but rather doesn't have the tools to counteract her slow speed.

 

[StoicPhantom]

That is a good point. If Zelda had the same fundamentals applied her slow speed wouldn't matter as much. She just needs tool to augment her slow speed as well as consistent combos and better range.

Well, think about the new Phantom. What we have here is essentially a massive disjointed, nigh omni-directional hitbox, that can span
over half the stage, cover any platforms, edgeguard for free, and although I don't know the exact frames I'm thinking possibly single digits.

Each of its charges have different properties and ranges associated with them and can cover pretty much any direction except behind it.
Its speed and range is extreme and being completely disjointed means Zelda is safe once the hitbox starts. If Zelda's fundamental flaws
are her speed, range, and aerials, leading to her being unable to control space then the new Phantom is the polar opposite having all of
those in spades. The new Phantom essentially covers all of those fundamental flaws that has been plaguing Zelda since her debut. Charge 1
is a kick that hits low, meaning short characters that would normally duck under most of Zelda's moves will be punished. Charge 2 is a high punch that can hit tall characters or short hops and does a fair amount of knockback, so a good get off me tool. Charge 3 is a horizontal swing that covers a lot of distance in front and can be used to preemptively stop blitzes as well as a potent edgeguard. Charge 4 is an over head slash that covers over half the stage and can reach the top platform. Good for anti-air, platform campers, and short hoppers or those who like to hangout in the air in general, as well as edguarding higher recoveries. Charge 5 is a low scooping attack that covers possibly 75% of the stage or close to it and can hit small characters, as well as go under the ledge and hit people hanging on the ledge. Charge 6 is like charge 5, but Zelda is able to move during the attack and has almost limitless applications.

This means that no matter how much faster,how much more range you have, how small you are, or how disjointed your hitbox is the Phantom has you covered. So properly spaced and with the appropriate charge level it's impossible to evade the Phantom on movement alone, risk-free. What the Phantom doesn't cover, Zelda does. That means no matter what action your opponent takes they will lose something. Be it shield strength, stage control, momentum, pressure,or even a stock. This will not buff Zelda's fundamentals but bring her opponents down to her level. The Phantom has what Zelda lacks, so if Zelda can't control space then the Phantom can. And not just about shutting down her opponent, think about how it will help the rest of her moveset. I mentioned in the previous post that it felt like an amalgamation of finishers, right? If Zelda's moveset was a jab, they would be the big hit, while the Phantom would be the one-two setup.

The Phantom single-handedly gives meaning and purpose to the rest of her moveset. Din's Fire is useless as a traditional projectile, but as a combo to the Phantom's setup it can be a pretty potent finisher. Fair is a powerful, but highly risky move that's pretty useless for spacing. But comboing off the Phantom launch, it can be that early KO near the ledge. Not even just hitting the opponent,imagine the shield pressure the two combined could pull off. You could very well break someone's shield. Zelda's moveset is largely useless by itself, but used in conjunction with the Phantom, it can become pretty potent. The Phantom serves as a solid foundation that Zelda's moveset was lacking and sorely needed. Now think about all I've just said.

With Zelda's entire moveset becoming viable and the near limitless applications the Phantom has, Zelda might change jobs from a defensive character to an all-range creative strategic character in the same vein as Sheik and Rosalina. Her playstyle might end up being one where you need to understand all the tools Zelda has, as well as your opponent's and concoct strategies on the fly, in order manipulate space and put your opponenet where you need them.

Doesn't sound so different from Robin, does it?

 

[Codebox]

Well, think about the new Phantom. What we have here is essentially a massive disjointed, nigh omni-directional hitbox, that can span
over half the stage, cover any platforms, edgeguard for free, and although I don't know the exact frames I'm thinking possibly single digits.

Each of its charges have different properties and ranges associated with them and can cover pretty much any direction except behind it.
Its speed and range is extreme and being completely disjointed means Zelda is safe once the hitbox starts. If Zelda's fundamental flaws
are her speed, range, and aerials, leading to her being unable to control space then the new Phantom is the polar opposite having all of
those in spades. The new Phantom essentially covers all of those fundamental flaws that has been plaguing Zelda since her debut. Charge 1
is a kick that hits low, meaning short characters that would normally duck under most of Zelda's moves will be punished. Charge 2 is a high punch that can hit tall characters or short hops and does a fair amount of knockback, so a good get off me tool. Charge 3 is a horizontal swing that covers a lot of distance in front and can be used to preemptively stop blitzes as well as a potent edgeguard. Charge 4 is an over head slash that covers over half the stage and can reach the top platform. Good for anti-air, platform campers, and short hoppers or those who like to hangout in the air in general, as well as edguarding higher recoveries. Charge 5 is a low scooping attack that covers possibly 75% of the stage or close to it and can hit small characters, as well as go under the ledge and hit people hanging on the ledge. Charge 6 is like charge 5, but Zelda is able to move during the attack and has almost limitless applications.

This means that no matter how much faster,how much more range you have, how small you are, or how disjointed your hitbox is the Phantom has you covered. So properly spaced and with the appropriate charge level it's impossible to evade the Phantom on movement alone, risk-free. What the Phantom doesn't cover, Zelda does. That means no matter what action your opponent takes they will lose something. Be it shield strength, stage control, momentum, pressure,or even a stock. This will not buff Zelda's fundamentals but bring her opponents down to her level. The Phantom has what Zelda lacks, so if Zelda can't control space then the Phantom can. And not just about shutting down her opponent, think about how it will help the rest of her moveset. I mentioned in the previous post that it felt like an amalgamation of finishers, right? If Zelda's moveset was a jab, they would be the big hit, while the Phantom would be the one-two setup.

The Phantom single-handedly gives meaning and purpose to the rest of her moveset. Din's Fire is useless as a traditional projectile, but as a combo to the Phantom's setup it can be a pretty potent finisher. Fair is a powerful, but highly risky move that's pretty useless for spacing. But comboing off the Phantom launch, it can be that early KO near the ledge. Not even just hitting the opponent,imagine the shield pressure the two combined could pull off. You could very well break someone's shield. Zelda's moveset is largely useless by itself, but used in conjunction with the Phantom, it can become pretty potent. The Phantom serves as a solid foundation that Zelda's moveset was lacking and sorely needed. Now think about all I've just said.

With Zelda's entire moveset becoming viable and the near limitless applications the Phantom has, Zelda might change jobs from a defensive character to an all-range creative strategic character in the same vein as Sheik and Rosalina. Her playstyle might end up being one where you need to understand all the tools Zelda has, as well as your opponent's and concoct strategies on the fly, in order manipulate space and put your opponenet where you need them.

Doesn't sound so different from Robin, does it?

Will it really be that good though? I mean faster characters and swordies are still a problem. It also breaks easily from what I've been hearing. But I do agree that this one move is something she did need for like ever. Being reflected can still be a problem as well. Like I know it's useful for Zelda, but it won't be the best zoning tool in the game. But will help Zelda setup or make other opponents retreat defensively. But yeah, Robin's sole tool for trapping is Arc fire setups, so I guess the same application with the Phantom applies to Zelda?

 

[EODM07]

How's it going Mikuru Asahina fans?

Just getting as much work done as possible, since it all has to be in by tomorrow. Only got 1 part left to do, and then I'll double check it later and see what changes can be amended.

Also, I find it kind of funny. During Smash 4 and Melee, I really didn't like Sheik and therefore, I wasn't really a big fan of VoiD. But now that I've grown out of that phase and seeing VoiD use other characters like Pichu and Roy. I'm actually rooting for him more now, hoping he'll do well in tournaments along with Larry as well!

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[StoicPhantom]

Will it really be that good though? I mean faster characters and swordies are still a problem. It also breaks easily from what I've been hearing. But I do agree that this one move is something she did need for like ever. Being reflected can still be a problem as well. Like I know it's useful for Zelda, but it won't be the best zoning tool in the game. But will help Zelda setup or make other opponents retreat defensively. But yeah, Robin's sole tool for trapping is Arc fire setups, so I guess the same application with the Phantom applies to Zelda?

I was speaking in an ideal setting where Zelda made the right judgement and successfully released the Phantom to illustrate the principles
and possible applications. If it was an instant win button, it'd get nerfed pretty quickly. There are weaknesses to it and Zelda's matchup
chart will likely revolve around whether she can safely use it or not. Zelda will likely have a high learning curve and need lots of practice in order to bring out her full potential. Knowing when and what charges to use where is going to be difficult to learn and require a lot of experience and match-up knowledge. You will need more advanced skills and understanding of high level concepts and fundamentals in order to fully bring out her potential. That's why I likened her to Sheik who also needs those things. You will likely need to improvise a lot in the course of the match and make split-second decisions.

The Phantom breaks when either the Phantom is hit while charging or Zelda is hit. So Zelda needs to be careful when she's going out to attack as well as be smart about when she charges Phantom. Projectiles, super armor, reflectors, a fast character with an intelligent player behind the wheel as well as certain character specific moves like Flare Blitz or Ridley's side b are all potential counters. It's also possible that the new parry mechanic can nullify the Phantom, but no one is good enough with it yet to pull it off consistently and Phantom is still a little too fast. I don't know if it will be the best zoning tool but it likely be one of the best.

Arcfire is one of Robin's best trapping tools, especially with the changes in Ultimate making it the new Arcthunder, but it's not their sole trapping tool. All of Robin's Projectiles are potential zoning and trapping tools as well as attacks and punishes. Part of Robin's theme is their moveset being multi-faceted and being swiss army knives capable of zoning, trapping, attacking, comboing, pressuring, edguarding, and overall controlling space and manipulating the opponent. Remember Chess.

So yeah, the same applies with Phantom. There is going to need to be a lot of thinking outside the box on our part in order to properly pull this off. We can't think about space and fundamentals and limitations the same way. Phantom is to be used in conjuction with her other moves and needs to be part of a larger strategy. It's not a spam2win move. I posted in the combo thread about a combo I pulled on a turtling Inkling, where I successfully chained Din's Fire into charge 6 Phantom into Farore's Wind. Conventional Zelda wisdom deems that impossible and tantamount to suicide, but what happened was I had trapped Inkling in shield, with no time due to the new shield mechanics, to escape. The change to Farore's Wind was enough to successfully hit right after the Phantom and hit Inkling's exposed hurtbox. This is what I mean by thinking outside the box. We have to throw out everything we used to know about Zelda and approach this with a fresh mindset.

We as humans are likely going to be the biggest limitation now.

 

[HotSummer]

I must say that our good sis Zelda SNAPPED. She did THAT.
I’m having so much fun using her. Din’s Fire is no longer our fave accidental death (about time amiright ) and Phantom Slash’s new mechanics feel so fresh ! Sure, speedies spell her demise, but this is definitely a step forward from Smash 4.

 

[BJN39]

Think I saw a comment concerning Phantom’s Frame Data and it’s Frame 7-17 on full charge release. Prolly hits max forward range at around 11-14.

Also the shield kinda acts like an invincible period for the phantom at the start of late charge 4 and 5, as soon as the shield spawns. It’s only a couple frames but if your timing is good you can pop it out if a fully charged sun salutation is coming at you and phantom will rank it despite that being over its damage threshold.

Btw full charge phantom can tank 21.5% now instead of 13%. BEAUTY


I think anyone who has reliable ways to maneuver past phantom will make Zelda struggle, but otherwise her potential escape from bottom tier really has been mostly in due to Phantom. Mechanics were pretty good to her this time though; Landing lag buffs help a ton, everyone else’s grabs getting nerfed to her level (her’s grab slower but the endlag is the same or better than average now.) to name some stuff.

I literally can’t just camp, but now Zelda kinda has to try to do it, so...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Btw full charge phantom can tank 21.5% now instead of 13%. BEAUTY ...

I mean peach normal turnips do like 12% now, he needed to up his stamina to cover that 25% attack buff everyone got lol

I literally can’t just camp, but now Zelda kinda has to try to do it, so...

When you finally can camp and dont know how, oh Zelda problems lol

 

[Lil Puddin]

I’ve been playing through the World of Light for the past few days. The first time I played it, I thought it was just a trash mode, but it’s actually pretty fun. It’s cool how many individual spirits they made unique battles for. I’ve been using mostly Ivysaur now, but I played through most of the beginning as Sheik and then as Bowser. It’s crazy how long WoL is, too.

I wanted to unlock most of the cast first before playing that mode.

Though the fact there's over 1000 spirits is just awesome. Then the fact there's actually-thought-out special battles for each one on top of that. It's clear they had this in the works since Sm4sh. A lot of TLC went into it.

Even Classic is great. But then they ruined it with that repetitive 1-minute long bonus stage. I do appreciate how the black hole moves at a pace that works with the character we're using at the time, but it's still quite unfun. Ironically a more low-key or relaxing bonus stage would've been more ideal to break up the nonstop "OH NO I ONLY HAVE 1 STOCK!!!" tense action.

Also I finally fixed Overwatch (for the last few months I'd get an error saying "Your rendering device has been lost! Application closing." in the middle of games and I lost basically all of the endorsements I had so now I gotta start from level 1 again smh) so it's snowball fight tiem.

I can't buy loot boxes so I must grind and pray for all the legendary skins except Furry GoatRat. Which is problematic because I also want to play SmashU and knit+watch shows. I should've just been a good gorl and waited for SmashUuUuUuU.

have u tried yoga lady

I did tho. I hate to say it, but I think WFT/Robin might be used more than Kawaii Zeldoo at this point. I don't have a problem vs him. But there are some moments that feel beyond unfair because we shouldn't have to tip-toe around this character. Then we have a mostly-melee ranged Incineroar who is slower and has a worse recovery than KRool and not as much cheese and I'm just sitting there like ??? I get K Rool is a bad boi and will play dirty, so I appreciate his cheese. But Fire Kitty is supposed to be a Heel-type, which basically means "also like K Rool" - so where is his bad boi cheese? Where's his not-garbage recovery? Where's his fluidity and speed (he's a wrestler, the other is a fat gatorgorl)? It's just so mind-hurty. Sakurai y r u liek dis???

Btw full charge phantom can tank 21.5% now instead of 13%. BEAUTY

hunTy you forgot that even Olimar's sneeze deals 20%+ damage. Made worse in 1v1s where damage is slightly boosted. Phantom is good due to the speed, but it's hardly top tier material since it falls apart if you just look at it funny. It's very insecure. pls no bullie knightie

But her area control aspect is nice. It's just not good enough considering the range she controls doesn't match the scale of stages OR the speed of the enemies she fights. That's why the Knight and just about everything she does needs a range buff. Or KB-angle fixes. And Uair needs either a range buff or speed buff. Though she's certainly not low tier anymore. Perhaps mid-low, low-mid, still needs some tweaks. So while she's still garbage, she's at least not moldy goopy garbage all wrapped up in a sparkly bag anymore.

So I guess Zelda was technically blessT?

 

[Ffamran]

This is so sad.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So, what could Zelda do to capitalize on this turtle abuse?

 

[Cress!]

Also just curious but is elevator still a thing that Zelda can do? I remember seeing someone here (I think BJN or Ricky) say that falling Nair is gone, so linking into elevator is gone, but what about elevator itself?

 

[BJN39]

Elevator definitely still works. Same looking hitbox data on the ground and air angles/kb, so it should be there. (I mean, it 100% worked on cpus so it’s there. You can still DI though obviously.) The only difference is the first hit comes 1-2F sooner, and the second hit comes a couple frames sooner after the first hit than it used to. Oos it should be really fast now.

 

[Lil Puddin]

This is so sad.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So, what could Zelda do to capitalize on this turtle abuse?

Farore's Elevator and then sing Thank U, Next.

 

[BJN39]

PSA gorls, I had a suspicionT about phantom’s HP, and as it turns out in my latest tests I discovered that Phantom’s uncharged HP is much lower, and it scales with charge, maxing at 21.5%. At minimum it’s like, 7.3% HP lol. I’m not really upset because it can still instantly tank a hit for Zelda and be used again just under 2 seconds later, which is waaaay better than the long wait in SSB4 to reuse Phantom.

 

[Rickster]

Also just curious but is elevator still a thing that Zelda can do? I remember seeing someone here (I think BJN or Ricky) say that falling Nair is gone, so linking into elevator is gone, but what about elevator itself?

Nair 1 is still good, possibly even better now. It reliably combos into kicks, regular nairs, sometimes Usmash and probably jumping Farore's too

Drag down nair is kinda sorta dead? Nair 2, 3, 4 all have super low hitstun, so if you drag down the opponent can just mash attack/grab or hold shield. But if the opponent does neither, you can get good damage off or an elevator kill

Basically Nair 1 is the new drag down, and the actual drag down is a risky but highly rewarding mixup

Elevator feels nerfed in terms of KB, but I'm ok with it since she got so many other compensation buffs (like kicks OoS being almost free lolz)

 

[Linnc]

Hey gorls, long time no see! I just wanted to drop by and see how things were going.

So, I noticed when I was fighting Pit, his arrows would miss me when I used down tilt. I’m pretty sure this was not the case in Sm4sh. I’m not sure if this people have already found this or if down tilt has the same application for other projectiles (or moves in general), but I thought it was interesting.

Edit: Video

 

[Brinzy]

This is probably never gonna be applicable, but I got matched against someone on the Little Mac stage. I went for a Phantom while bouncing on the ropes. My Phantom charged to full on the ropes while I was able to move on with my life. I'm sure y'all probably knew about this already - and it isn't really practical. But I found it weird.