Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[BJN39]

In Melee, blue Zelda’s LKs are faster than the other palettes

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In melee default falcon has the smallest ecb's lololol

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I've always used green Zelda with a touch of white Zelda in Smash 4 but IDK the green palette in Ultimate is the SLIGHTEST bit off putting to me?? Cuz it makes her hair look a tint greener like the green Pikachu outfit does to his body

Spoiler

It reminds me of a certain other Zelda palette's hair...

Spoiler

All of her palettes look really cute overall though! Like this is the first time I can actually see myself using nearly every palette swap for a character on a regular basis

 

[Freelance Spy]

In Melee, blue Zelda’s LKs are faster than the other palettes

I didn't need another excuse to main blue Zelda.

But I'm not complaining, blue Zelda master race!

 

[Katy Parry]

BPD.

Back in the Brawl days I mained Red Zelda since that costume had no gloves for some reason. I thought it made it more unique. They nerfed Red in Smash 4 but I still main it just because I'm used to it at this point

Yeah.

I think I'm digging the one in my signature. I always LOVED the white/light purple color in Melee, Brawl took it away, and Smash 4 was a nasty yellow silver combo. It felt lazy.

This new one reminds me of her "Hylia" dress, and I'm stanning it hard.

 

[EODM07]

What's happening Madolche fans?

So a new BOX is out for DL, which has support for Madolche, Gem-Knights and even Elemental HEROes. Then again, E-HEROes just seem to get A LOT of support. More then I think BEWD ever did.

Also, here's that updated moveset for Kokonoe.

Spoiler: Theorized moveset for Kokonoe in BBTAG

Note: All of these moves will have the original motion of them from BBCF.
Kokonoe's Normals & Specials:

Input | Move
4A |

5AAAA |

5BBB |

5C |

2A |

2B |

2C |

j.A |

j.B |

j.C |

j.CC |

A+D |

236A/B/C |

(Followup B/C Version only. C Version Wallbounces.) 214A/B (Air OK) |

214C (Air OK) |

22A/B/C |

(Depending on button press, it'll place it either at 8D, 6D or 3D.) 22A/B/C |

Kokonoe's Supers, Astral & Assists:

Input | Move
236BC |

214BC (Air OK) |

222BC (Resonance) |

4P |

5P |

6P |

[1st Hit only]

Might as well leave those Kokonoe dialog ideas here too. :V

Spoiler: Kokonoe BBTAG Dialog ideas

w/Tager:
K: Tager! Come in, Tager!
T: *Jumps in* Ready to assist in any means possible, Kokonoe.
K: Took you long enough.

Win:
K: Seems like the upgrades really paid off for you Tager.
T: Indeed.

Win-Quote:
T: That was an adequate battle. Kokonoe, what shall the next mission be?
K: I'll have to think about it, for now. Let's head back to the lab and do some more tuning.

w/Jubei:
K: You better not get in my way, old man.
J: This is how my daughter treats me?

Win:
J: See that? Impressed now by my technique?
K: *Gets out bag of crisps*
J: Hey! Don't ignore your father!

Win-Quote:
J: I came all this way to help you out in your battle, and this is how you treat your own father?... Kids these days have no respect for their elders...
K: Respect? Sorry, but I just have nothing to talk to you about, it'd just be a huge waste of time.

w/Nine:
Ni: Your dearest Mother is here to help you out, Kokonoe.
K: Help? I don't need help from you, Nine.

Win:
K: That's the power of science!
Ni: Don't forget the power of magic, too!

Win-Quote:
Ni: Perhaps we should invite your father to join us. Then the whole family would be back together again.
K: No chance. I'd rather be back in the lab then have a reunion with him.

w/Noel:
No: Let's go Miss Kokonoe!
K: Sure, you have fun. I'm almost at the good part in this.
No: H-Hey! Focus on the battle!

Win:
No: Phew... That was a close one.
K: Damn... That took longer then I expected.

Win-Quote:
No: Erm... Miss Kokonoe, would you perhaps like a drink? You see rather thirsty.
K: No. Knowing what Ragna has to deal with, I'm not even going to bother trying this "beverage" you made.

w/Kanji:
Ka: Oh man... Those tails, and those ears... I just wanna pet her!
Ko: Hey, kid! Think you can keep your eyes on the fight instead of me!?

Win:
Ka: Yeah! Don't mess with Kanji Tatsumi!
Ko: ...Well, that was an interesting battle.

Win-Quote:
Ka: Hey! Err... Is it okay if I can pet you? Your tails and ears are just so fluffy! I can't resist myself! Can I? Please?
Ko: Ugh! Get away from me, you pervert!

w/Aigis:
A: Beginning combat proceedures!
K: So another robot, huh? This could be good data to get.

Win:
K: That performance... That was... Really interesting to watch!
A: I thank you for your compliment, that I am almost crying tears of joy!

Win-Quote:
K: Hey, if you need any upgrades or some tinkering done. Just gimme a call, alright? I think you and Tager will get along pretty well.
A: Thank you for the offer, Kokonoe-san. I will gladly consider it whenever I am in your world.

w/Linne:
L: Think you can keep up with me and my EXS?
K: As if we don't have enough people who run really quickly.

Win:
K: Hope you had your fun.
L: Now it's time for us to leave.

Win-Quote:
L: By the time you saw us, it was already too late. There's no need to hold regret for your loss.
K: In a nutshell, you had your ass kicked. That's pretty much what she's saying.

w/Waldstein:
W: You rely on measely toys and gadgets to help you out in battle!? What a pathetic sight...
K: You better not be talking **** about the powers of science!

Win:
W: You need to train your body if you wish to become like me! Wahahaha!...
K: No chance.

Win-Quote:
W: It saddens me to see such a woman like you relying on nothing but machines and magic to do anything on the battlefield! Why not let me help train you, so you can have a big, muscular body like me?
K: If I did that, I'd probably be the laughing stock in the division I'm in. Plus, science is more fun anyway.

w/Mika:
M: Wooow! You have gauntlets just like me!? They're so cool!
K: Heh. Finally, some appreciation for my work.

Win:
K: Now that's over with, time to get back to my game.
M: Hey, hey! Can I play too!?

Win-Quote:
M: So you're a scientist? You don't really look it, but all of the inventions and gadgets you have are really cool! I'd love to try your gauntlets one day!
K: Sorry kid, there's no chance I'd let you touch any of my creations. But if you want me to tune up your gauntlets, I'd probably give them 200% more firepower.

w/Ruby:
R: *Squeals* All of these WEAPONS! YOU. HAVE. SO. MANY! Ahh!
K: You can stop gawking at me, and focus on the fight instead.

Win:
R: All of those weapons... I really gotta know more about those!
K: Then I better improve security for my lab then...

Win-Quote:
R: You have all of these weapons, and they're all teleported from your lab! Ahh! They're soo cool, hey can I take a close look at them!? Please!? Please!?
K: Buzz off already, will you? I'll probably have to stuff you into a cannon next time I see you.

w/Blake:
B: So, you're just like me right?
K: If you mean, half-beast. Then probably.

Win:
B: Good, now I get back to reading.
K: And I can get back to my inventions.

Win-Quote:
B: Heh, it seems like there's more to us then I imagined. We just wanna have peaceful lives, doing what we enjoy.
K: If you say so, but I wouldn't call us "buddy-buddy" just because we have certain things in common.

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[EchoAegis]

I'm couldn't stop laughing after seeing this photo I thought it would be appreciate here.

Anyway I'm excited to play Zelda this time around but a question for previous Zelda mains do you miss the Twilight princess look or do you prefer the Link to the past one? Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

[DNeon]

I'm couldn't stop laughing after seeing this photo I thought it would be appreciate here.

Anyway I'm excited to play Zelda this time around but a question for previous Zelda mains do you miss the Twilight princess look or do you prefer the Link to the past one? Sorry if this has been asked before.

I miss TP, I need the real Royalty, not the Disney Princess. She used to look like she was above this and she was gonna take that out on you for making her fight. Princess Zelda should be regal like the queen she is (going to be but I mean she's already QUEEN).

 

[McKnightlíght]

HmmmT I wonder how my list stacks up to the new colors. I'll have to wait until release to know for sure.

Oh my gosh guys... They are all situational!

Green: When you want to feel pretty.
Blue: When you feel like spamming Nayru's.
Red: When you've lost a game and you're in rage mode.
White: When fighting a Link use this to intimidate them with commitment.
Black: When you know you're about to bodybag someone you should dress for their funeral.
Pink: When you want to feel like a pop star.
Trash Purple: When you're fighting Olimar and there is no hope.
Default: When you accidentally picked default.

 

[KlicKlac]

So it seems like in Ultimate, Ness's Dsmash has been changed that the YoYo will fall off the edge and hang by the ledge if Ness is close enough #SmashBrosUltimate pic.twitter.com/qXNpQe0JCp

— Dax (@SB_Dax) July 10, 2018

There was some talk that teleport recoveries bypass the 2-frame when snapping to the ledge, and I hope that is true for Zelda!

 

[sonofwiseii]

That's something Ness could do in Melee and Brawl, right? I at least know he could do it with up-smash in Melee, lemme find a gif. Here we go. Neat that they added it back in.

 

[Rickster]

So it seems like in Ultimate, Ness's Dsmash has been changed that the YoYo will fall off the edge and hang by the ledge if Ness is close enough #SmashBrosUltimate pic.twitter.com/qXNpQe0JCp

— Dax (@SB_Dax) July 10, 2018

There was some talk that teleport recoveries bypass the 2-frame when snapping to the ledge, and I hope that is true for Zelda!

Wait, they bypass all the time? Not just when done from above the ledge? Very welcome change for Zelda, extremely questionable for other high/top tier teleports such as Mewtwo and Sheik...

 

[KlicKlac]

Wait, they bypass all the time? Not just when done from above the ledge? Very welcome change for Zelda, extremely questionable for other high/top tier teleports such as Mewtwo and Sheik...

I believe it was mentioned by Nairo or someone else that sheik managed to grab the ledge from below with upb while a smart bomb was going off, and someone mentioned mewtwo could do that too. But I haven't seen video proof yet, and not with zelda either, so it's unconfirmed atm

 

[Freelance Spy]

I believe it was mentioned by Nairo or someone else that sheik managed to grab the ledge from below with upb while a smart bomb was going off, and someone mentioned mewtwo could do that too. But I haven't seen video proof yet, and not with zelda either, so it's unconfirmed atm

It would be nice if someone could test this with a sex kick or something long lasting like that.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Could someone please tell me if I'm making things up or if this was already known but

(0:30 if timestamp doesn't work)

Has the landing lag on Zelda's fair been drastically decreased??? After she shields immediately after fair it looks like she can act a lot faster than in Smash 4 but I'm not sure

 

[Katy Parry]

Could someone please tell me if I'm making things up or if this was already known but

(0:30 if timestamp doesn't work)

Has the landing lag on Zelda's fair been drastically decreased??? After she shields immediately after fair it looks like she can act a lot faster than in Smash 4 but I'm not sure

My guess? The animation didn’t come out. Maybe if the move doesn’t connect it’s faster. Hmmm.

 

[Rickster]

Could someone please tell me if I'm making things up or if this was already known but

(0:30 if timestamp doesn't work)

Has the landing lag on Zelda's fair been drastically decreased??? After she shields immediately after fair it looks like she can act a lot faster than in Smash 4 but I'm not sure

Ffamran had a post somewhere around here with some rough frame counting on her landing lag. I don't remember exact numbers, but kicks did have a fairly large endlag reduction (I think bair was like -5 frames or something? fair might've been like -3)

 

[evmaxy54]

Ffamran had a post somewhere around here with some rough frame counting on her landing lag. I don't remember exact numbers, but kicks did have a fairly large endlag reduction (I think bair was like -5 frames or something? fair might've been like -3)

My friend Skarfelt was counting frames on footage as it came out and he said Fair and Bair had -8 frames each (though obv def take it with a large grain of salt).

 

[Demon-oni]

So just noticed some bad news. Seems if you're too close to phantom on the full charge it will literally phase through you. Look at 0:14 on this vid. And just to be sure, I went frame by frame, and Ridley definitely lands before the phantom starts to rush out. Hopefully it's something that will be fixed on release.

On an unrelated note, Ness having yo yo charge edge guard shenanigans is awesome and might get me to consider playing him again if he has other cool tricks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtY6DGrSKJo

 

[meleebrawler]

So just noticed some bad news. Seems if you're too close to phantom on the full charge it will literally phase through you. Look at 0:14 on this vid. And just to be sure, I went frame by frame, and Ridley definitely lands before the phantom starts to rush out. Hopefully it's something that will be fixed on release.

On an unrelated note, Ness having yo yo charge edge guard shenanigans is awesome and might get me to consider playing him again if he has other cool tricks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtY6DGrSKJo

What's the big deal if you can just smack someone with Zelda herself if they get that close without breaking it?

 

[Freelance Spy]

What's the big deal if you can just smack someone with Zelda herself if they get that close without breaking it?

You are stuck in the charging animation most likely.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I guess how bad that is will depend on the situation cuz Zelda definitely was out of the charging phase in that video and could've attacked Ridley

I really hope that gets fixed bc fully charged phantom can whif in Smash 4 too at point blank SO hopefully someone at the demo said something about it or it'll get changed eventually before release or via patches or whatev

 

[Freelance Spy]

I guess how bad that is will depend on the situation cuz Zelda definitely was out of the charging phase in that video and could've attacked Ridley

I really hope that gets fixed bc fully charged phantom can whif in Smash 4 too at point blank SO hopefully someone at the demo said something about it or it'll get changed eventually before release or via patches or whatev

I don't think anyone at the demo would think to report about Zelda. Most people think based on what they've seen this far that Zelda will actually be great this time.

Most people know nothing about Zelda. People temporarily thought she'd be great in 4 because they've never considered the ramifications of how bad our sourspots, multihits, and pinprick hitboxes are. They blame all her issues on frame data when there are way more unnoticed weaknesses at play.

She's so under appreciated as a character that they NERFED DINS FIRE. Because they thought Zelda was too good.

If any character goes unnoticed for their brokenness, it will be Zelda, again.

We should know this by now.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

What's the big deal if you can just smack someone with Zelda herself if they get that close without breaking it?

Given that your out of charge animation.... nothing. I don't think it's a big deal honestly.

I don't think anyone at the demo would think to report about Zelda. Most people think based on what they've seen this far that Zelda will actually be great this time.

Most people know nothing about Zelda. People temporarily thought she'd be great in 4 because they've never considered the ramifications of how bad our sourspots, multihits, and pinprick hitboxes are. They blame all her issues on frame data when there are way more unnoticed weaknesses at play.

She's so under appreciated as a character that they NERFED DINS FIRE. Because they thought Zelda was too good.

If any character goes unnoticed for their brokenness, it will be Zelda, again.

We should know this by now.

Well, nairo definitely gave feedback (I think a lot of players felt she might be good but aren't sure of it) so some things are noted. Zelda has always been unpopular in the competitive community so nuanced stuff isn't always known.

That said I do see the potential in her current design (with just a few more changes). Also, I do think her moveset has always screamed Zelda to me (PM missed the mark with dins imo). I always admired how Sakurai (almost) represents every character perfectly in smash.

 

[Rickster]

I've honestly always been irked when I see people blame her frame data for her suckiness. It really isn't as bad as people make it out to be on the moves she'll actually be using in neutral. She has bigger issues than that imo

 

[Katy Parry]

Looks li

So just noticed some bad news. Seems if you're too close to phantom on the full charge it will literally phase through you. Look at 0:14 on this vid. And just to be sure, I went frame by frame, and Ridley definitely lands before the phantom starts to rush out. Hopefully it's something that will be fixed on release.

On an unrelated note, Ness having yo yo charge edge guard shenanigans is awesome and might get me to consider playing him again if he has other cool tricks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtY6DGrSKJo

Looks like because the sword doesn’t have a 0 percent hitbox anymore since it’s a wall, and this phantom charge is for closing a gap quickly, the hitbox is on the sword and the sword slides under him until he releases it. Think of it like a teleport move and at the end of its reappearance the hitbox comes out.

I don’t think it is a problem. Zelda should have kept charge and ran away or released early and attacked IMO

I think this adds depth to each charge level, you need a specific one to respond to a certain situation, and the final level allows you to control the situation.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

her frame data is fine except her landing lag really, her problems are her non-functional hitboxes and always needing to approach.

 

[Katy Parry]

her frame data is fine except her landing lag really, her problems are her non-functional hitboxes and always needing to approach.

Right, fsmash and upSmash and Nair just aren't solid get away moves. In fact, theyre more like come hither moves. Lol

I think they're addressing her approaching problem with the rework of PS. Their aleast attempting I think to work her more as a zoner, defensive character. It reminds me of how the Persona characters work in BlazBlue XTag Battle.

 

[evmaxy54]

She's always been built to be a defensive character, too bad her defensive tools have always kinda sucked on top of having a garbage disadvantage.

- Multi-hit transcendent hitboxes are gutter Tr4sh

- Terrible blindspots in the air (can't cover diagonal angles almost at all though this is also a problem for approaching)

- And she never had a proper anti-air because Utilt & Usmash had **** hitboxes.

Since the first two points are part of her character at this point, gonna have to see what the hitboxes are like for the 3rd and how general game mechanics change her. Plus whether or not she has her Tr4sh pivot grab, NL changes & Phantom changes.

 

[Katy Parry]

She's always been built to be a defensive character, too bad her defensive tools have always kinda sucked on top of having a garbage disadvantage.

- Multi-hit transcendent hitboxes are gutter Tr4sh

- Terrible blindspots in the air (can't cover diagonal angles almost at all though this is also a problem for approaching)

- And she never had a proper anti-air because Utilt & Usmash had **** hitboxes.

Since the first two points are part of her character at this point, gonna have to see what the hitboxes are like for the 3rd and how general game mechanics change her. Plus whether or not she has her Tr4sh pivot grab, NL changes & Phantom changes.

If her Nair was like Mewtwo or hell, why not Peach or Ness. She was so close to getting that same Nair.

Yeah, she really doesn't have an anti air. Her only anti air is shield lmao

If only upair and uptilt were switched. Boy, that'd be sweet

I've always believe Sakurai made Zelda a free for all character, with a well timed fsmash you might get everyone if they don't what what SDI is lol. Phantom looks like it would rip through 5 plus players

I mean besides who didn't play Zelda campy before competitive play poisoned our brains?

I mean, just look at what I became

"NO ITS NOT IT COMES OUT ON FRAME 147 I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT GRAH GRAH GRAH BLESE BLEE BLOOOOOO!!!!!!!"

 

[Freelance Spy]

Right, fsmash and upSmash and Nair just aren't solid get away moves. In fact, theyre more like come hither moves. Lol

I think they're addressing her approaching problem with the rework of PS. Their aleast attempting I think to work her more as a zoner, defensive character. It reminds me of how the Persona characters work in BlazBlue XTag Battle.

...Except that phantom slash is worse than everything else that works as a zoner/approach forcing move.

You don't have to worry about Zelda charging because it's not storable like shadowball, it doesn't give you limit, and it isn't an item that can be abused.

And, oh yeah, she *can't* move and charge like those other characters. She's a sitting duck.

It works like a terrible projectile with bad damage but it charges like megaman's fsmash. Does megaman try to use fsmash as a zoning tool?

Even if it is delayed (this is a FULL CHARGE mind you.) Zelda has to approach! Zelda is terrible at that!

Phantom slash doesn't cover enough range either. People should be able to just, stay out of range or hit Zelda before she does anything. I'm also expecting people to be able to powershield on reaction if Zelda let's go early.


PS will likely be one of the worst zoning tools in the game.

... again.

For edgegaurding on the other hand... Looks great!

 

[Luminario]

Honestly the way they dealt with the Phantom in Smash 4 was a travesty. Who gives a character a wall then makes it so that you don't want it to be attacked? Where you want it hanging around for a little time as possible in case someone breaks it and you're left with 10 second cooldown on it?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ye phantoms garbo in smash 4 and it doesn't look great in ssbu either

 

[McKnightlíght]

Zelda is busted in 8 player Smash honestly. Especially in time mode? You kidding me?

 

[Cress!]

Oh yeah I haven't posted here yet

Uh...

kaito momota, like if u agree

 

[Cenizas]

Hey gorls, don't mind me, I've just arrived fashionably late because I am just THAT fashionable

 

[meleebrawler]

Can we not wait until the full moveset is labbed out before condemning a move in a vacuum?

I know one thing, and that's the fact that the new airdodge mechanics is a bigger improvement to Din's than ''no helpless state'' ever will be.
You always had to respect it's power offstage, but now you have to weigh the risk of burning your dodge and being unable to avoid the follow-up.

I'm also not really seeing her still being unable to force approaches. Besides the new mechanics generally discouraging excessive defence, Phantom forces the opponent to take some action, because shielding will only work once when used in conjunction with Din's, and sidestepping won't work if you stagger them properly. That leaves jumping, but being in the air is more dangerous in Ultimate because again, weaker airdodges. Whether she still crumbles in the face of pressure is the real question.

 

[Katy Parry]

...Except that phantom slash is worse than everything else that works as a zoner/approach forcing move.

You don't have to worry about Zelda charging because it's not storable like shadowball, it doesn't give you limit, and it isn't an item that can be abused.

And, oh yeah, she *can't* move and charge like those other characters. She's a sitting duck.

It works like a terrible projectile with bad damage but it charges like megaman's fsmash. Does megaman try to use fsmash as a zoning tool?

Even if it is delayed (this is a FULL CHARGE mind you.) Zelda has to approach! Zelda is terrible at that!

Phantom slash doesn't cover enough range either. People should be able to just, stay out of range or hit Zelda before she does anything. I'm also expecting people to be able to powershield on reaction if Zelda let's go early.


PS will likely be one of the worst zoning tools in the game.

... again.

For edgegaurding on the other hand... Looks great!

1. You DO have to worry about Zelda charging because she gets a free approach. If someone shields the phantom she can grab them. If they roll she gets a dash attack punish. The fact phantom can't be destroyed from the front means you have to get behind it which is what Zelda wants, she's making you approach. Being storable would make the move broken.



2. Oh yeah, you CAN move while using phantom using b turns in neutral. I'll post a gif. She retains all momentum now with all her specials for yeah, she can drift and cast the move.

3. Megamans fsmash doesn't tank hits for for him, nor does it wait and let him move before it comes out fully charged

4. If they stage out of range from phantom Zelda has dins fire to force an approach and punish it. That's what a zoning character is. It's like Ivy in Soul Calibur.

I respect your opinion I disagree wholeheartedly. I know I'm excited about the move, but to say it will again be the worst move in the game just sounds like you haven't looked at the move enough. I think you'll change your mind once we have the game in our hands

 

[evmaxy54]

Can we not wait until the full moveset is labbed out before condemning a move in a vacuum?

I know one thing, and that's the fact that the new airdodge mechanics is a bigger improvement to Din's than ''no helpless state'' ever will be.
You always had to respect it's power offstage, but now you have to weigh the risk of burning your dodge and being unable to avoid the follow-up.

I'm also not really seeing her still being unable to force approaches. Besides the new mechanics generally discouraging excessive defence, Phantom forces the opponent to take some action, because shielding will only work once when used in conjunction with Din's, and sidestepping won't work if you stagger them properly. That leaves jumping, but being in the air is more dangerous in Ultimate because again, weaker airdodges. Whether she still crumbles in the face of pressure is the real question.

Din's is gonna be very MU dependent offstage. I can imagine a good few of them will not give two ****s about it at all, i.e. characters with fast, horizontal recoveries.

New shield mechanics ruins Phantom more than the old mechanics on paper (given that fully charged Phantom is reactable). It just depends on how much flexibility that we have with how Phantom gets launched will determine how good it would be for forcing something out of the opponent.
Jumping has never been particularly problematic except in Melee due to how good the LK sweetspot hitbox was and how spammable LKs were (but this was only for if you were jumping (near) horizontal to her, she struggled catching anyone who was above her FH height). Since then her air-to-air combat has been terrible when it was only passable in Melee & I've said already her ground-to-air combat is severely lacking in my last post. Tr4sh pivot grab only mitigated the problem slightly by catching unsafe landings but it was still a weakness that Zelda held the L for.

 

[meleebrawler]

Din's is gonna be very MU dependent offstage. I can imagine a good few of them will not give two ****s about it at all, i.e. characters with fast, horizontal recoveries.

New shield mechanics ruins Phantom more than the old mechanics on paper (given that fully charged Phantom is reactable). It just depends on how much flexibility that we have with how Phantom gets launched will determine how good it would be for forcing something out of the opponent.
Jumping has never been particularly problematic except in Melee due to how good the LK sweetspot hitbox was and how spammable LKs were (but this was only for if you were jumping (near) horizontal to her, she struggled catching anyone who was above her FH height). Since then her air-to-air combat has been terrible when it was only passable in Melee & I've said already her ground-to-air combat is severely lacking in my last post. Tr4sh pivot grab only mitigated the problem slightly by catching unsafe landings but it was still a weakness that Zelda held the L for.

I already said I don't know how much has changed, buffed or nerfed about Zelda's moveset as a whole. Do you? Because all I'm hearing is talk of the past as if Ultimate Zelda's normals are completely unchanged from 4, when that just isn't true. Jab multihits, is faster and can freaking KO at high percents, nobody has seriously labbed lightning kicks to see how hard/easy they are to land now, combos haven't been explored...