Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[R.O.B.B.E.D]

Same. Though I think I dislike the waifu/cute archetype more in my case. TBH if Zelda had debuted with this design I might have never had decided to main her.

I'm glad we have Zero Suit and Bayonetta for more mature female options, but I wish mature didn't automatically mean = sexy like it does with those two.

Totally agreed. I find the waifu stuff off-putting and also wouldn't have mained her in Melee if she had this design. Zelda was perfect for being that mature feminine presence without the T&A stuff.

 

[Lil Puddin]

S
I'm glad we have Zero Suit and Bayonetta for more mature female options, but I wish mature didn't automatically mean = sexy like it does with those two.

Well normal Samus is still a mature lady who isn't sexy to anyone but , so there's that. :^)

I suppose Robin is a mature lady with... Twin-tails.

Unless you meant like a serious-mature woman, than I guess that IS only ZSS/Bayo/Samus.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Totally agreed. I find the waifu stuff off-putting and also wouldn't have mained her in Melee if she had this design. Zelda was perfect for being that mature feminine presence without the T&A stuff.

Yep! Oh well, like you said, at least we have the brown haired alt that I can pretend is a younger TP Zelda.

Well normal Samus is still a mature lady who isn't sexy to anyone but , so there's that. :^)

I suppose Robin is a mature lady with... Twin-tails.

Unless you meant like a serious-mature woman, than I guess that IS only ZSS/Bayo/Samus.

Samus is in that weird place of being two drastically different characters at once design wise lol. I kinda count her as one, in terms of female archetypes, because she is supposed to have the same personality consistent across both versions. ZSS is just... more T&A as has been said.

F Robin is more on the cute side to me and both versions seem young-ish (teenager). Then again in her game she can get married and have kids, so who knows really. (perhaps early twenties?)

So yeah, just Bayo/ZSS-Samus for that archetype imo. (though bayo tends be part serious part hammy)

 

[Freelance Spy]

As a longtime Zelda main I've been waiting for the return of blonde Zelda so I don't really care about not being as stoic.

BUBBLY ZELDA FOR LIFE I GUESS!

 

[BJN39]

Y'know, seeing Zelda up on the site banner is such an honor, but it reminded me,

Something was missing.

brought to you with mild attempts at trying in 15 minutes. (Even ha snaTched earrings make a return lol)

 

[Katy Parry]

Y'know, seeing Zelda up on the site banner is such an honor, but it reminded me,
View attachment 150272
Something was missing.

brought to you with mild attempts at trying in 15 minutes. (Even ha snaTched earrings make a return lol)

Lol
Even her earrings

She’s so cemented now

 

[EODM07]

I'd post this in the other Zelda Social. But nuts to it, I'll post it here.

I think us that play BBTAG can relate to this.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Why is the Zelda Social no longer a guide?

 

[BJN39]

The guide to life is in the other social,

This one doesn’t have enough wig snatching to warrant a guide tag yeT

 

[Katy Parry]

Looks like zeldas jab has a lot of pressure by being able to stop after the first hit. Her down tilt hits from a lot farther away than it used to.

Zelda jabs, then dashed forward and cancels dash into jab again.

 

[Mocha]

The knockback from her Dtilt looks weird from a glance since Peach gorl stole our Dtilt. I hope it's not harder to follow up, gonna miss those Dtilt > Uair moments.

 

[Katy Parry]

The knockback from her Dtilt looks weird from a glance since Peach gorl stole our Dtilt. I hope it's not harder to follow up, gonna miss those Dtilt > Uair moments.

Umm it looks like it pops them straight up to me

 

[BJN39]

The knockback from her Dtilt looks weird from a glance since Peach gorl stole our Dtilt. I hope it's not harder to follow up, gonna miss those Dtilt > Uair moments.

You might be onto something.

A certain hit type element (y’know like how Zelda had like, all magic/electric in Brawl) actually portrays the hit angle in its splash animation. (Unless it has a Sakurai angle) Zelda’s dtilt had this quality in SSB4 and clearly doesn’t use a Sakurai Angle.

Spoiler: cheap screencap

This was actually annoyingly hard to pinpoint with my mobile lol

The little white streak is that angle indicator. SSB4’s had an 80 degree angle, but this looks closer to 70 or so.

I mean I wouldn’t take this as gospel because they could’ve changed how that visual works (or hex I could just be full on mistaken) but it does look like the angle could be a bit lower. Hope not though! Zelda doesn’t deserve that

 

[Freelance Spy]

You might be onto something.

A certain hit type element (y’know like how Zelda had like, all magic/electric in Brawl) actually portrays the hit angle in its splash animation. (Unless it has a Sakurai angle) Zelda’s dtilt had this quality in SSB4 and clearly doesn’t use a Sakurai Angle.

Spoiler: cheap screencap

View attachment 150384
This was actually annoyingly hard to pinpoint with my mobile lol

The little white streak is that angle indicator. SSB4’s had an 80 degree angle, but this looks closer to 70 or so.

I mean I wouldn’t take this as gospel because they could’ve changed how that visual works (or hex I could just be full on mistaken) but it does look like the angle could be a bit lower. Hope not though! Zelda doesn’t deserve that

Could be accidental DI towards Zelda.

 

[BJN39]

Could be accidental DI towards Zelda.

DI wouldn’t affect how the hit animation appears if the idea is carried on the same from SSB4.

 

[Rickster]

From what I've seen, Dtilt seems to knock the opponent farther away than Smash 4's. At mid % it could set up for kicks better but Dtilt>Uair is probably gone unless they DI in for some reason

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I can't believe Zelda's new jab is so fast hello IT'S SO WEIRD SEEING HER DO THINGS IN AN ACCEPTABLE AMOUNT OF TIME

 

[KlicKlac]

Unfortunately it looks like jab has more endlag. I hope we can still jab to DA/grab but not looking true

 

[Ffamran]

I've been thinking and I'm wondering if the lowered landing lag to Zelda's aerials are too little when compared to what the others received as of the E3 demo build. Part of it came from a false shock that PAC-MAN's Bair landing lag was reduced to 7 frames from its 22 in Smash 4, but I think the post used a 30 FPS video and it's actually 14 according to the PAC boards, but that's still a significant drop; -8 frames of landing lag. PAC-MAN E3 frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

So far, from my post earlier: https://smashboards.com/threads/zel...s-free-fall-free.453509/page-11#post-22134523, all but Dair's landing lag were obtained. Compared to Smash 4, they would be this:

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|17|-2
Uair|19|14|-5
Fair|23|19|-4
Bair|25|19|-6
Dair|18|13|-5

The lowered landing lag is all right and assuming some of them retain their auto-cancel windows like Nair, Zelda should be okay. That said, even if you can't auto-cancel an aerial, having low landing lag in general is still good. For instance, Zelda's Nair still has higher landing lag than Smash 4 Falco's which has 15 landing frames. Falco can't auto-cancel his Nair, but if Zelda were in a situation where she couldn't, then Falco's would win out since his would have lower landing lag than hers. There's also the weird interaction with the last hit of Falco's Nair where if you land at the right time, Falco has enough time to follow-up with another aerial. Anyway, I doubt Zelda's Nair dropping further to 15 landing lag is going to kill anyone. Ness and Peach have similar Nairs in animation and, in Smash 4 compared to Ultimate E3 Zelda, Ness's would win out in auto-cancel windows and Peach's has 11 landing lag. Comparing Smash 4 to a demo build of Ultimate isn't exactly fair or a great idea, but there's still some merit to it. Zelda's lightning kicks I would say having high landing lag makes sense because they are supposed to be high risk, high reward moves, however, there are other moves that are consistently strong or even stronger that have lower landing lag. Off the top of my head, Ganondorf and Ike's Bairs at this point or a more similar move, a kick, but with less range, Falco's Bair in Smash 4.

Moving on, some of the landing lag reduction to Zelda's aerials, mainly her lightning kicks, are substantial, but relative to other characters, her aerial landing lag seems more like Smash 4's, ironically enough. The characters that pop in my head are Fox, Ike, and Ganondorf who I don't know if their boards have written up any numbers. They've noted changes, but not the numbers themselves the last time I checked. Anyway, the landing lag reduction to them are high and higher compared to Zelda. Sure, Zelda shouldn't be throwing out lightning kicks all willy-nilly, but at least for Nair, Uair, and even Dair, maybe they should be closer to what the other characters are getting.

Spoiler: Some comparisons

Here's Fox's landing lag compared with Melee to Smash 4 and the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's E3 demo. From this post which built off of a Skarfelt's findings of Fox's landing lag and other frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wil...peculation-thread.453400/page-2#post-22131471.

|Melee|Brawl|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|9|11|7|-4
Uair|18|22|22|13|-9
Fair|22|18|27|18|-9
Bair|20|15|15|9|-6
Dair|18|12|25|17|-8

Keep in mind that, in general, Fox is one of the fastest characters on the ground and has good auto-cancels on his aerials. If this sticks, then Fox's landing lag would be lower than in Melee and comparable to his L-canceled aerials in Melee. Sure, some of the mechanics changes and nerfs to his other moves are hurting him as of the E3 demo, but in a way Fox is becoming faster.

Here's Ike's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4. This does not include his reduced startup and animation and hitbox changes that were found on their boards as well: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-build-information-changes-and-damage-values-ike.455509/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|14|8|-6
Uair|15|9|-6
Fair|18|14|-4
Bair|19|11|-8
Dair|23|14|-9

Ike is not as fast as Fox or Cloud and Marth for that matter on the ground, but Ike's aerials have always had good coverage and fairly good startup, especially his Bair. Well, now his landing lag is comparable to Smash 4 Mario and Sheik and Fox in the Ultimate E3 demo. I'm not sure if the Ganondorf boards have written down his landing lag, but his and Ike's landing lag as of the E3 demo are downright terrifying to me and makes me heavily concerned if the developers are aware of the consequences of such a reduction to certain characters' landing lag or reducing them enough so characters are on even footing with regards to how their aerials work, how they move, and what the character is designed to do. They hit hard where Ike trades power for safety with Ragnell while Ganondorf's aerials tend to be faster since they're Captain Falcon's essentially. As noted before, Ganondorf and Ike aren't fast, but they look more and are more mobile in Ultimate. By that, I mean not just in whatever movement speed increases they're getting if any, but also the universal changes like frame 3 jumps and being able to act out of dash with any move. Lowered landing lag gives them even more flexibility with Ike winning out a lot since he's using a sword.

Bowser's E3 demo build landing compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-...e-bowser-analysis.455508/page-2#post-22163704.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|20|15|-5
Uair|28|20|-8
Fair|24|14|-10
Bair|40|24|-16
Dair|40|36|-4

So, large number changes, but Bowser's landing lag was pretty bad in Smash 4. I'd say this is reasonable and that Bowser should have had these numbers in Smash 4. Seriously, what was he going to do with Bair that necessitated 40 landing frames? It's not naturally disjointed nor does it reach that far and it's not super fast. Bowser can auto-cancel it from a hop, but if he screws up, then he's going to be on the ground for a while.

PAC-MAN's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|12|8|-4
Uair|16|N/A|N/A
Fair|16|10|-6
Bair|22|14|-8
Dair|20|12|-8

I am no Zelda expert, but if it were up to me, the E3 demo should have tested Zelda with these numbers that possibly could carry over into the release build and be fine. Maybe Nair is too low assuming she might be able to pull of what Falco can do in Smash 4 and Uair I'm not so sure on since it hits hard, but so do other Uairs that are a bit more consistent in how you can land them like Fox's ability to follow people on the ground and Uair or arcing, high coverage Uairs like Ike and Robin's or safer ones like Bowser and DK's which are head invincible.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|10|-9
Uair|19|12|-7
Fair|23|18|-5
Bair|25|18|-7
Dair|18|12|-6

Obligatory Falco stuff.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|N/A|N/A
Uair|15|N/A|N/A
Fair|25|N/A|N/A
Bair|15|N/A|N/A
Dair|23|23|0

Wow, his landing lag numbers are really similar to Ultimate E3 Zelda's. Just rearrange them to correspond with Zelda's moves. That's really sad now that I think about it.

 

[Rickster]

Unfortunately it looks like jab has more endlag. I hope we can still jab to DA/grab but not looking true

Jab 1 will probably be a "setup" tool like Sheik, Fox, Falcon, etc's jabs in Smash 4. Oh well at least the multihit looks pretty good on it

I've been thinking and I'm wondering if the lowered landing lag to Zelda's aerials are too little when compared to what the others received as of the E3 demo build. Part of it came from a false shock that PAC-MAN's Bair landing lag was reduced to 7 frames from its 22 in Smash 4, but I think the post used a 30 FPS video and it's actually 14 according to the PAC boards, but that's still a significant drop; -8 frames of landing lag. PAC-MAN E3 frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

So far, from my post earlier: https://smashboards.com/threads/zel...s-free-fall-free.453509/page-11#post-22134523, all but Dair's landing lag were obtained. Compared to Smash 4, they would be this:

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|17|-2
Uair|19|14|-5
Fair|23|19-20|-3 to -4
Bair|25|19-20|-5 to -6
Dair|18|N/A|N/A

The lowered landing lag is all right and assuming some of them retain their auto-cancel windows like Nair, Zelda should be okay. That said, even if you can't auto-cancel an aerial, having low landing lag in general is still good. For instance, Zelda's Nair still has higher landing lag than Smash 4 Falco's which has 15 landing frames. Falco can't auto-cancel his Nair, but if Zelda were in a situation where she couldn't, then Falco's would win out since his would have lower landing lag than hers. There's also the weird interaction with the last hit of Falco's Nair where if you land at the right time, Falco has enough time to follow-up with another aerial. Anyway, I doubt Zelda's Nair dropping further to 15 landing lag is going to kill anyone. Ness and Peach have similar Nairs in animation and, in Smash 4 compared to Ultimate E3 Zelda, Ness's would win out in auto-cancel windows and Peach's has 11 landing lag. Comparing Smash 4 to a demo build of Ultimate isn't exactly fair or a great idea, but there's still some merit to it. Zelda's lightning kicks I would say having high landing lag makes sense because they are supposed to be high risk, high reward moves, however, there are other moves that are consistently strong or even stronger that have lower landing lag. Off the top of my head, Ganondorf and Ike's Bairs at this point or a more similar move, a kick, but with less range, Falco's Bair in Smash 4.

Moving on, some of the landing lag reduction to Zelda's aerials, mainly her lightning kicks, are substantial, but relative to other characters, her aerial landing lag seems more like Smash 4's, ironically enough. The characters that pop in my head are Fox, Ike, and Ganondorf who I don't know if their boards have written up any numbers. They've noted changes, but not the numbers themselves the last time I checked. Anyway, the landing lag reduction to them are high and higher compared to Zelda. Sure, Zelda shouldn't be throwing out lightning kicks all willy-nilly, but at least for Nair, Uair, and even Dair, maybe they should be closer to what the other characters are getting.

Spoiler: Some comparisons

Here's Fox's landing lag compared with Melee to Smash 4 and the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's E3 demo. From this post which built off of a Skarfelt's findings of Fox's landing lag and other frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wil...peculation-thread.453400/page-2#post-22131471.

|Melee|Brawl|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|9|11|7|-4
Uair|18|22|22|13|-9
Fair|22|18|27|18|-9
Bair|20|15|15|9|-6
Dair|18|12|25|17|-8

Keep in mind that, in general, Fox is one of the fastest characters on the ground and has good auto-cancels on his aerials. If this sticks, then Fox's landing lag would be lower than in Melee and comparable to his L-canceled aerials in Melee. Sure, some of the mechanics changes and nerfs to his other moves are hurting him as of the E3 demo, but in a way Fox is becoming faster.

Here's Ike's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4. This does not include his reduced startup and animation and hitbox changes that were found on their boards as well: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-build-information-changes-and-damage-values-ike.455509/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|14|8|-6
Uair|15|9|-6
Fair|18|14|-4
Bair|19|11|-8
Dair|23|14|-9

Ike is not as fast as Fox or Cloud and Marth for that matter on the ground, but Ike's aerials have always had good coverage and fairly good startup, especially his Bair. Well, now his landing lag is comparable to Smash 4 Mario and Sheik and Fox in the Ultimate E3 demo. I'm not sure if the Ganondorf boards have written down his landing lag, but he and Ike's landing lag as of the E3 demo are downright terrifying to me and makes me heavily concerned if the developers are aware of the consequences of such a reduction to certain characters' landing lag. They hit hard where Ike trades power for safety with Ragnell while Ganondorf's aerials tend to be faster since they're Captain Falcon's essentially. As noted before, Ganondorf and Ike aren't fast, but they look more and are more mobile in Ultimate. By that, I mean not just in whatever movement speed increases they're getting if any, but also the universal changes like frame 3 jumps and being able to act out of dash with any move. Lowered landing lag gives them even more flexibility with Ike winning out a lot since he's using a sword.

Bowser's E3 demo build landing compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-...e-bowser-analysis.455508/page-2#post-22163704.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|20|15|-5
Uair|28|20|-8
Fair|24|14|-10
Bair|40|24|-16
Dair|40|36|-4

So, large number changes, but Bowser's landing lag was pretty bad in Smash 4. I'd say this is reasonable and that Bowser should have had these numbers in Smash 4. Seriously, what was he going to do with Bair that necessitated 40 landing frames? It's not naturally disjointed nor does it reach that far and it's not super fast. Bowser can auto-cancel it from a hop, but if he screws up, then he's going to be on the ground for a while.

PAC-MAN's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|12|8|-4
Uair|16|N/A|N/A
Fair|16|10|-6
Bair|22|14|-8
Dair|20|12|-8

I am no Zelda expert, but if it were up to me, the E3 demo should have tested Zelda with these numbers that possibly could carry over into the release build and be fine. Maybe Nair is too low assuming she might be able to pull of what Falco can do in Smash 4 and Uair I'm not so sure on since it hits hard, but so do other Uairs that are a bit more consistent in how you can land them like Fox's ability to follow people on the ground and Uair or arcing, high coverage Uairs like Ike and Robin's or safer ones like Bowser and DK's which are head invincible.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|10|-9
Uair|19|12|-7
Fair|23|18|-5
Bair|25|18|-7
Dair|18|12|-6

Obligatory Falco stuff.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|N/A|N/A
Uair|15|N/A|N/A
Fair|25|N/A|N/A
Bair|15|N/A|N/A
Dair|23|23|0

Wow, his landing lag numbers are really similar to Ultimate E3 Zelda's. Just rearrange them to correspond with Zelda's moves. That's really sad now that I think about it.

I definitely agree that her Nair still is too laggy. Especially since it looks like the drag down combos aren't going to be as good anymore. The drag down effect looks a lot like how Brawl Nair behaves, so maybe they'll reduce it to around that range (iirc brawl nair was like somewhere around 10 frames?BANZELDA)

Uair I'm fine with, Dair also looks good(https://youtu.be/Pg8i5jX9OU4?t=1m15s). Kicks could be a little less laggy but I'd settle for 20 frames tbh.

 

[Ffamran]

I definitely agree that her Nair still is too laggy. Especially since it looks like the drag down combos aren't going to be as good anymore. The drag down effect looks a lot like how Brawl Nair behaves, so maybe they'll reduce it to around that range (iirc brawl nair was like somewhere around 10 frames?BANZELDA)

It's 12 according to this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-research-thread.290399/. Let's see...

|Melee|Brawl|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|18|12|19|17|-2
Uair|25|22|19|14|-5
Fair|18|22|23|19|-4
Bair|18|22|25|19|-6
Dair|24|21|18|13|-5

Well, at least Uair and Dair are getting lowered landing lag in each game assuming Ultimate Zelda's Dair is <= 17. Nair went from having low landing lag in Brawl to going back to Melee's in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Smash 4 is weird with her lightning kicks like for some reason they decided they should have different landing lag in that game, but in the other games and I think in Ultimate, they're the same.

Anyway, I said it already, but her Nair still has higher landing lag than Smash 4 Falco's assuming it's unchanged in Ultimate and Falco's Nair had the same landing lag in every game, except Brawl where it was 9 and that's a possibility for Falco's Nair to drop to in Ultimate or get close to. The only reason I can think of them keeping her Nair with landing lag like that is that they want to keep multi-hit aerials with higher, relative landing lag. Fox's Fair only dropped down to Brawl's 18 landing lag and his Dair dropped to Melee's level and those numbers are comparable to Falco and Zelda's in every game, but Brawl. Problem is that it's not consistent and conflicts with that if you look at Ultimate E3 demo PAC-MAN's Dair and go back to Smash 4's Mewtwo's Nair and Peach's Dair, they all have lower landing lag; 12 for PAC and 13 for Smash 4 Mewtwo and Peach. That and Fox is fast, so he shouldn't have low landing lag on all moves, especially multi-hits with high active frames compared to Falco, PAC-MAN, Peach, and Zelda who are slower at least on foot. With Zelda, the thing is that it puts her in a disadvantage of her aerial with the lowest landing lag is Uair and that only hits up. If she wants to hit forward like other characters, she's stuck with Nair's 17 landing lag if she doesn't auto-cancel it since lightning kicks are probably not something she wants to risk throwing out. Zelda's essentially locked out of using aerials more freely or having a flexible aerial unlike other characters. She has other moves and Zelda isn't someone who's going to rush in and throw aerials at people, but it is still limiting.

And with regards to what her Nair does, the immediate comparison would be Smash 4 Falco's and at the moment, Zelda's main advantage seems to be her ability to auto-cancel it from a hop unlike Falco, but Falco wins in startup speed, frame 3 to Zelda's frame 6, and landing lag. Possibly recovery too since Falco's has 25 recovery frames to Smash 4 Zelda's 28. This might depend on people, but the lowered amount of hits could make it harder for Zelda to drag people down or if she can do it in Ultimate, land on its final hit and follow up like Falco can in Smash 4 which its higher landing lag probably doesn't help.

I made a point to single out Smash 4 Falco since Ultimate Falco's basically a mystery outside of Blaster, Dair startup, and animation changes. Anything else is like we could have shown you, but we didn't, so Falco's still got this "I'm probably going to be crap and busted again" feeling going on because nobody else outside of the developers and hired Q&A were able to test him and give feedback on him. Things like maybe Down Smash shouldn't have its sour-spots send people up or maybe Uair should go back to its Brawl and launch Smash 4 style of hitting harder than what happened in 1.0.8, but without its sour-spot from then. With Nair specifically, my thoughts on it is since Smash 4's changes to Nair and Fair, they were interchangable where Nair is faster and works well with low percent combos, but Fair also combos and can kill at the cost of being slower and having higher landing lag, but with an inexplicable landing hit. Now, Fair's down to 8 frames in startup and I'm at a point where I really think Nair should be something else at least in function because the things it does doesn't seem to be enough to differentiate it from Fair in my opinion. Even something like Melee Fox and Falco's Fair's hit style where it's not meant to connect all its hits would work. It's not like Pikachu now who has a central hitting Nair, a forward-hitting Fair that is slower and has higher knockback on its last hit, and a Bair that flattens him and has higher active frames. Or the Pits where Nair is central to their body while Fair hits forward and away from their body. Falco's Nair and Fair are both forward-hitting, but central to his body where Nair's last hit could have had the same KO power as Fair since its only difference is 15 knockback growth. Anyway, I digress.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I've been thinking and I'm wondering if the lowered landing lag to Zelda's aerials are too little when compared to what the others received as of the E3 demo build. Part of it came from a false shock that PAC-MAN's Bair landing lag was reduced to 7 frames from its 22 in Smash 4, but I think the post used a 30 FPS video and it's actually 14 according to the PAC boards, but that's still a significant drop; -8 frames of landing lag. PAC-MAN E3 frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

So far, from my post earlier: https://smashboards.com/threads/zel...s-free-fall-free.453509/page-11#post-22134523, all but Dair's landing lag were obtained. Compared to Smash 4, they would be this:

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|17|-2
Uair|19|14|-5
Fair|23|19-20|-3 to -4
Bair|25|19-20|-5 to -6
Dair|18|N/A|N/A

The lowered landing lag is all right and assuming some of them retain their auto-cancel windows like Nair, Zelda should be okay. That said, even if you can't auto-cancel an aerial, having low landing lag in general is still good. For instance, Zelda's Nair still has higher landing lag than Smash 4 Falco's which has 15 landing frames. Falco can't auto-cancel his Nair, but if Zelda were in a situation where she couldn't, then Falco's would win out since his would have lower landing lag than hers. There's also the weird interaction with the last hit of Falco's Nair where if you land at the right time, Falco has enough time to follow-up with another aerial. Anyway, I doubt Zelda's Nair dropping further to 15 landing lag is going to kill anyone. Ness and Peach have similar Nairs in animation and, in Smash 4 compared to Ultimate E3 Zelda, Ness's would win out in auto-cancel windows and Peach's has 11 landing lag. Comparing Smash 4 to a demo build of Ultimate isn't exactly fair or a great idea, but there's still some merit to it. Zelda's lightning kicks I would say having high landing lag makes sense because they are supposed to be high risk, high reward moves, however, there are other moves that are consistently strong or even stronger that have lower landing lag. Off the top of my head, Ganondorf and Ike's Bairs at this point or a more similar move, a kick, but with less range, Falco's Bair in Smash 4.

Moving on, some of the landing lag reduction to Zelda's aerials, mainly her lightning kicks, are substantial, but relative to other characters, her aerial landing lag seems more like Smash 4's, ironically enough. The characters that pop in my head are Fox, Ike, and Ganondorf who I don't know if their boards have written up any numbers. They've noted changes, but not the numbers themselves the last time I checked. Anyway, the landing lag reduction to them are high and higher compared to Zelda. Sure, Zelda shouldn't be throwing out lightning kicks all willy-nilly, but at least for Nair, Uair, and even Dair, maybe they should be closer to what the other characters are getting.

Spoiler: Some comparisons

Here's Fox's landing lag compared with Melee to Smash 4 and the difference between Smash 4 and Ultimate's E3 demo. From this post which built off of a Skarfelt's findings of Fox's landing lag and other frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wil...peculation-thread.453400/page-2#post-22131471.

|Melee|Brawl|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|9|11|7|-4
Uair|18|22|22|13|-9
Fair|22|18|27|18|-9
Bair|20|15|15|9|-6
Dair|18|12|25|17|-8

Keep in mind that, in general, Fox is one of the fastest characters on the ground and has good auto-cancels on his aerials. If this sticks, then Fox's landing lag would be lower than in Melee and comparable to his L-canceled aerials in Melee. Sure, some of the mechanics changes and nerfs to his other moves are hurting him as of the E3 demo, but in a way Fox is becoming faster.

Here's Ike's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4. This does not include his reduced startup and animation and hitbox changes that were found on their boards as well: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-build-information-changes-and-damage-values-ike.455509/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|14|8|-6
Uair|15|9|-6
Fair|18|14|-4
Bair|19|11|-8
Dair|23|14|-9

Ike is not as fast as Fox or Cloud and Marth for that matter on the ground, but Ike's aerials have always had good coverage and fairly good startup, especially his Bair. Well, now his landing lag is comparable to Smash 4 Mario and Sheik and Fox in the Ultimate E3 demo. I'm not sure if the Ganondorf boards have written down his landing lag, but his and Ike's landing lag as of the E3 demo are downright terrifying to me and makes me heavily concerned if the developers are aware of the consequences of such a reduction to certain characters' landing lag or reducing them enough so characters are on even footing with regards to how their aerials work, how they move, and what the character is designed to do. They hit hard where Ike trades power for safety with Ragnell while Ganondorf's aerials tend to be faster since they're Captain Falcon's essentially. As noted before, Ganondorf and Ike aren't fast, but they look more and are more mobile in Ultimate. By that, I mean not just in whatever movement speed increases they're getting if any, but also the universal changes like frame 3 jumps and being able to act out of dash with any move. Lowered landing lag gives them even more flexibility with Ike winning out a lot since he's using a sword.

Bowser's E3 demo build landing compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/e3-...e-bowser-analysis.455508/page-2#post-22163704.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|20|15|-5
Uair|28|20|-8
Fair|24|14|-10
Bair|40|24|-16
Dair|40|36|-4

So, large number changes, but Bowser's landing lag was pretty bad in Smash 4. I'd say this is reasonable and that Bowser should have had these numbers in Smash 4. Seriously, what was he going to do with Bair that necessitated 40 landing frames? It's not naturally disjointed nor does it reach that far and it's not super fast. Bowser can auto-cancel it from a hop, but if he screws up, then he's going to be on the ground for a while.

PAC-MAN's E3 demo build landing lag compared with Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/whats-changed-about-pac-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|12|8|-4
Uair|16|N/A|N/A
Fair|16|10|-6
Bair|22|14|-8
Dair|20|12|-8

I am no Zelda expert, but if it were up to me, the E3 demo should have tested Zelda with these numbers that possibly could carry over into the release build and be fine. Maybe Nair is too low assuming she might be able to pull of what Falco can do in Smash 4 and Uair I'm not so sure on since it hits hard, but so do other Uairs that are a bit more consistent in how you can land them like Fox's ability to follow people on the ground and Uair or arcing, high coverage Uairs like Ike and Robin's or safer ones like Bowser and DK's which are head invincible.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|10|-9
Uair|19|12|-7
Fair|23|18|-5
Bair|25|18|-7
Dair|18|12|-6

Obligatory Falco stuff.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|15|N/A|N/A
Uair|15|N/A|N/A
Fair|25|N/A|N/A
Bair|15|N/A|N/A
Dair|23|23|0

Wow, his landing lag numbers are really similar to Ultimate E3 Zelda's. Just rearrange them to correspond with Zelda's moves. That's really sad now that I think about it.

Are these numbers for real? I was already under the impression that Zelda would still be trash but this frame data confirms it. I'm going to make a video to alert the public so people don't waste their time picking up a garbage character.

Btw you talked about falco way too much for some reason. Not a complaint but it stood out in both your posts.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It's because Falco is his boy... :'(

 

[Freelance Spy]

It's because Falco is his boy... :'(

I bet the falco boards are so dead geez. Poor guy has to vent over here in the trash.

 

[BJN39]

I bet the falco boards are so dead geez. Poor guy has to vent over here in the trash.

Anyways, I know we have multiple videos of Zelda’s DAir Landing Lag now (Nairo vids come to mind) so I’m just guessing it hasn’t been recorded? Or is the footage too bad to record?

 

[KlicKlac]

omg ledge canceling is still in!? Please be true! We need video proof now!

Zelda up b still ledge cancels in ultimate! Idk if that's known or not. Did it from center stage town

— Tyler (@tyroy_the_boy) June 29, 2018

 

[Ffamran]

Btw you talked about falco way too much for some reason. Not a complaint but it stood out in both your posts.

I bet the falco boards are so dead geez. Poor guy has to vent over here in the trash.

Falco's Nair is a direct comparison to Zelda's since they're similar moves. The other reasons is he is the character I tend to use in Smash and have you ever had something so insulting that it just sticks with you and you always remember it or need to keep an eye on it? That's him in a nutshell for me in Smash. Every game so far, something broken and something stupid. Ultimate will either be the game to continue or break the trend of Falco having some dumb crap that you cannot explain.

Anyway, yes, the Falco boards are dead and have always been. I haven't been here during Melee or Brawl's days, but Smash 4 and so far with Ultimate, it's been very quiet. Falco being meh in Smash 4 doesn't help nor does the mass migration to Discord, which I don't use, late in Smash 4's life, so I doubt even if Falco miraculously becomes good in Ultimate, that there would be a ton of activity. I still stick around since it's useful to have a readily available archive on Smashboards. There are other places where you can get frame data information, video links, whatever, but the more sources, the better, I suppose.

The Ultimate Falco boards currently has two threads. The speculation thread made a while ago and a gameplay thread made by me. The last post was on Jun 17 in the gameplay thread where the only discussion was between me and one other user while the speculation thread died in May. The Duck Hunt boards' last post was on Jun 20, but at least their gameplay thread postings was with 6 other people. Y'know, an actual forum discussion.

I've taken refuge in the Smash 4 Zelda boards, well, social, for a long time.

Anyways, I know we have multiple videos of Zelda’s DAir Landing Lag now (Nairo vids come to mind) so I’m just guessing it hasn’t been recorded? Or is the footage too bad to record?

It just wasn't recorded and I don't know if it was recorded. I referred to my post from 5 pages ago and that footage didn't have Zelda use her Dair and land from what I remember. I'll see if I can find a 60 FPS video with her landing with Dair.

Edit: I think it's 18 frames, so unchanged from Brawl, from the RAGE 2018 videos on MVG. Problem is that the frames sometimes don't look like they move when I press < and >, so I'm going to see if there's other videos with her using Dair near the ground. In the match against Inkling girl, Zelda starts moving on frame 19 from when she lands, the white smoke appearing at around 1:46 to 1:48. The match against Link is weird since on the first time, it looks like she starts moving on frame 21. The starting frame being when the white smoke appears and frame 21 being when it looks like she moves to face forward at 1:07 to 1:09. Zelda uses Dair again immediately and this doesn't hit Link, but she also turns during the landing. She turns around on frame 26 from the smoke appearing at 1:09 to 1:10. The frames looking like they're not moving at certain times makes me feel like I'm going to have to call it a dud. 18 frames will be the placeholder, however, since that's at least her Smash 4 Dair landing lag and close to in the other games. Look, if her Dair suddenly has +21 landing lag, but Ike's Dair landing lag gets his dropped to 14 and is only 2 frame slower on startup and Falco's startup gets dropped to 10, but has similar landing lag, then this would be like a Wii Fit Trainer Dair situation. WFT's Dair is frame 20 with 20 landing frames. Its damage and knockback doesn't seem to be anything special either and she can't auto-cancel it from a hop.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Did Zelda's B-throw change in animation? She does this graceful swing thing. Nairo's videos look way smoother and they're recorded off-screen, so I have no idea what the hell was going on with MVG's footage.

The effects are making it hard to see what's going on. I can't see when she lands with Dair the two times Nairo landed it on-stage. That said, it looks like 13 frames since Nairo immediately uses Down Smash the two times he used Dair on-stage. The first time is easier to see since she lands away from Cloud rather than right next to him on the second time. First time occurs during 1:05 to 1:07. The starting frame is when the vertical smoke thing appears and I'm considering the blue sparkle to the right of Zelda as the first frame she's acting, starting to use Down Smash. That's 13 frames from the when she touches the ground to beginning her Down Smash. The second time I did it in reverse since I couldn't see when she landed. The starting frame is when Zelda suddenly stands up from her crouch and preparing to kick with Down Smash also indicated by the blue sparkle on her foot. That's the frame when she'd be able to act after landing. Going backwards, it's 13 frames to when it looks like she just touched the ground. Zelda's still in her kicking animation of Dair and the frame after it is when she drops down to land. I believe that happens with every aerial where the first landing frame is the aerial they used and the second one is when they land if that makes any sense. This one occurs from 1:15 to 1:16, but I started this backwards, so it's around in 1:16.

I'm going to edit my previous post as well, but for here, this is what her aerial landing lag is as of the E3 demo.

|Smash 4|SSBU E3 demo|Difference
Nair|19|17|-2
Uair|19|14|-5
Fair|23|19|-4
Bair|25|19|-6
Dair|18|13|-5

Also, as confirmation, Fair is 19 frames of landing which I would assume Bair would share now, but I'm going to check. From 0:13 to 0:14. The starting frame is when she touches the ground and Zelda moves on frame 19 from there. Bair's landing lag is also 19, but the footage is a bit messy from on the first time I checked; there are afterimages. From 1:38 to 1:39. The starting frame is when she touches the ground and the smoke appears around her and frame 19 looks like she's turning to do Nayru's Love where her head is looking behind her sort of. The second time doesn't have that and it's just her landing and turning around on frame 19. The landing frame is when Zelda suddenly shifts from her kicking pose to looking towards her kicking leg more and her hair suddenly dropping. Looks like she's about to brace for a fall. From 1:43 to 1:45.

Edit 3: With a Vengeance: I don't remember if I noted it down, but Dair's still frame 14. From to 1:42 to 1:43. The starting frame is when Zelda suddenly faces forward from her forward/neutral jump animation and the hit frame is when her leg is extended and the golden visual appears. It also looks like it has the same FAF since Nairo acts on frame 46. That's 1 frame longer than in Smash 4, but he was falling down and trying to hit with Bair. Assuming it has the same active frames, the last active frame being 24 in Smash 4, then it should have around 21 to 22 recovery frames. 21 if it's still 45 FAF and 22 if it's 46.

I do remember not getting Zelda's Uair, but if the first hitbox is when the fire appears, then it looks like it's frame 13. From Nairo's match with ESAM using DK at 1:16 to 1:17. The starting frame is when Zelda suddenly shifts falling animation to looking like she's looking up and lowering her upper body and the hit frame is when the fire appears on frame 13. That's a frame faster than in Smash 4 assuming I did see the first frame correctly which I think I did since at 1:08 to 1:11, Nairo uses Uair, but there's this weird afterimage thing before the frame that looks like the first startup frame of Uair. I think the afterimage frame is still her forward/neutral jump frame and not part of her Uair's animation.

Scratch that. Uair looks like it hits on frame 14 on Cloud's shield in the other match. From 1:10 to 1:12. Starting frame is when she shifts from her jump animation to looking up and the hit frame is when it hits Cloud's shield on frame 14. Wait, if this is the case, then the move lies to us since frame 13 is when the fire appears, right? Hits on frame 14 as well against ESAM's Pikachu with the fire effect appearing on frame 13. There's this glow around Pikachu on that frame before Pikachu gets hit on frame 14. From 0:42 to 0:43.

Okay, so Zelda's aerials with the lowest landing lag are two vertical-hitting moves, Uair and Dair. Incidentally, they also have the same startup and landing lag similar to their startup. So far, Zelda's Nair's landing lag is atrocious compared to other forward and central-hitting aerials. It's worse than Bowser's Nair which dropped from 20 frames to 15. Yeah, it should be probably be below 15 or 12 like in Brawl.

 

[MetroLSD]

Does anyone know if her Final Smash can only be used on one opponent at a time?

 

[otheusrex]

https://gfycat.com/DecisiveTintedIchthyosaurs
^ so from this spot in the match, it really looked like to me that Zelda won't have many true combo followups off of dair at least.

On a positive note, you gotta respect that grab range though!

 

[Luminario]

https://gfycat.com/DecisiveTintedIchthyosaurs
^ so from this spot in the match, it really looked like to me that Zelda won't have many true combo followups off of dair at least.

On a positive note, you gotta respect that grab range though!

Didn't someone here say that up throw is now our go-to combo throw? Also they could easily shave off a few frames from that endlag to give us more options if they're still going through the balancing process with her.
Being able to slow down the vid really shows you how flashy her moves are too. I just love how elegant it all looks.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

Honestly, I think Zelda's going to need a few more changes before she's going to do well competitively. Hate being pessimistic, but I'm underwhelmed.

 

[BJN39]

^ It ain’t pessimistic, it’s realistic. We’ve been saying Zelda needs larger changes to become more viable for a couple games now.

 

[Demon-oni]

All Zelda ever needed to be viable from smash 4 was frame data that wasn't butts in comparison to the cast. She already does respectable damage per individual hit and can kill potentially really early. Side b and phantom change are nice for her neutral, but that was never so much the problem. Not being able to properly pressure opponents from the air without significant risk has always been a huge issue. She can play defensive game all she wants but the second she's at percent disadvantage and the opponent plays passively she's done. Sure her frames are better than Smash 4's and brawl's, but so is everyone elses, so the buff is more universal to the gameplay rather than Zelda herself, bringing her back to square one.

Hopefully the "one air-dodge per air time" change will at least buff her into being lower tier rather than bottom. Being able to eat an air dodge and all that, but without either a new aerial tool kit or a large buff in the frame data department, I don't see her shooting past that for the time being.

 

[Mocha]

Cay confirmed ledge cancels being a thing while playing the Ultimate demo at CEO:

https://twitter.com/cayiika/status/1013093068717940737

Youtube upload if Twitter is iffy:

 

[Ffamran]

Apparently Cloud's Dair landing lag went down from Smash 4's 26 frames to 16 in the E3 demo. Yeah, sure, developers, let's give his Dair, a frame 11 disjoint on a character with high ground and air speed, 16 landing frames. Assuming his jump in regular and Limit Break mode have similar air time and Dair has a similar auto-cancel window, then he'll still be able to auto-cancel it from and have much lower landing lag if he uses it from a hop or close to the ground. Anyway, it's from this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-frame-data-e3-demo.456171/.

Zapp got different numbers for Zelda's landing lag except for Uair which he doesn't have and some other moves like Farore's Wind was noted as being frame 7 instead of 8. I don't know if anyone else has been counting Zelda's frames, but I rather there be multiple people doing so considering what we're using and doing to obtain frame data. Even if it was from a datamine, I'd prefer there to be multiple sources since a typo could screw up everything.

For landing lag, I'll just note it down here.

|Zapp's|Angry Bird Mod's|Difference
Nair|15|17|+2
Uair|N/A|14|N/A
Fair|17|19|+2
Bair|17|19|+2
Dair|12|13|+1

I do very hope that I'm wrong about Nair since 15 frames is way better than 17. Brawl's landing lag of 12 frames would be even better.

 

[Alacion]

The arrogance of some top players is so off-putting. Like whatever happened to modesty or just demonstrating that you're the bigger person when you get insulted.

Doing badly in one event and calling yourself terrible is honestly an insult to people that have placed around you or worse.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.

 

[Katy Parry]

Umm


What is going on with phantom here? Zelda casts phantom and Mario’s pummel killed it....

I think if Zelda is attacked it breaks the “link” she has with the phantom, and it doesn’t come out. So, Phantom can not save Zelda, she can only apply pressure with it safely.

Is it me or is the animation slightly fixed?

This makes the move worse, I will say.

 

[Rickster]

Umm


What is going on with phantom here? Zelda casts phantom and Mario’s pummel killed it....

I think if Zelda is attacked it breaks the “link” she has with the phantom, and it doesn’t come out. So, Phantom can not save Zelda, she can only apply pressure with it safely.

Is it me or is the animation slightly fixed?

This makes the move worse, I will say.

Aww man that is a serious weakness. I feel like she'd never be able to charge against characters with projectiles like fireballs/needles etc

 

[Katy Parry]

Aww man that is a serious weakness. I feel like she'd never be able to charge against characters with projectiles like fireballs/needles etc

Right, that’s why it seems to me you have to find safe rays to charge. As long as she isn’t hit, she’s ok, and this Zelda didn’t immediately cancel and reposition. She can do this on Frame 76, so she just has to be able to get the charge and run away.

Mario was pretty close for her to start the move though. We def can’t use it that close, unless we pop it sooner, to just have a wall they cannot pass through.

 

[Luminario]

Umm


What is going on with phantom here? Zelda casts phantom and Mario’s pummel killed it....

I think if Zelda is attacked it breaks the “link” she has with the phantom, and it doesn’t come out. So, Phantom can not save Zelda, she can only apply pressure with it safely.

Is it me or is the animation slightly fixed?

This makes the move worse, I will say.

That seems to be the trade-off for the delay charge and no cooldown if it's destroyed. Honestly, I'll take it.

Aww man that is a serious weakness. I feel like she'd never be able to charge against characters with projectiles like fireballs/needles etc

I wouldn't say it's too bad. By the time most people would react accordingly the Phantom would probably be fully charged and the projectile can be reflected back with Nayru or shielded, or if they're close enough we could just release Phantom early to eat the projectiles and attack too.