Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Jestar]

Great to see you here dressphere! Have a good time here.
One great piece of advice I can give you is that this place loves the icon so feel free to use it as much as you want.

Think of it as a substitute for the troll face only much better so it has a lot of versatility.

Other than that, this place is super chill and sassy so have fun!

Oh, and be sure to BAN•ZELDA whenever possible.

 

[dressphere]

thanks for the welcome everyone!!

Welcome dressphere !! I see you're probably a Paper Mario and FF fan. Good tastes.

yes. i am both of those things. two of my favorite franchises for sure, haha, i'm kind of an ff loyalist so i like everything no matter the quality.

Welcome to the Zelda Social!

...

You know what to do girls.

oh god(dess) i'm scared

But how much do you like punk rock?

i'm listening to the ramones right now. so kinda.

Great to see you here dressphere! Have a good time here.
One great piece of advice I can give you is that this place loves the icon so feel free to use it as much as you want.

Think of it as a substitute for the troll face only much better so it has a lot of versatility.

Other than that, this place is super chill and sassy so have fun!

Oh, and be sure to BAN•ZELDA whenever possible.

these are all useful pieces of advice. i'm dying at this ban zelda page.

 

[Antonykun]

I need a like from Rizen ....
I know! I'll post a really cute animal video

 

[Ffamran]

I need a like from Rizen ....
I know! I'll post a really cute animal video

Who was it that loved turtles? Was it Twili? I don't think it as her... Someone here in the Zelda social posted a crapton of turtles here.

 

[EODM07]

Who was it that loved turtles? Was it Twili? I don't think it as her... Someone here in the Zelda social posted a crapton of turtles here.

It was this boy here.

Also, I'm thinking of maybe getting a banner for my YT channel. Since I found a good model of Lucina for SFM. But it's been ages since I last used SFM. :V (So I'm gonna be rusty with that. Plus, I don't even have Photoshop. smh)

 

[SBphiloz4]

made this while being sleep deprived pls r8 comment subscribe m8s

where da f*** is supposed to go idunevn

 

[TTTTTsd]

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Ike has had consistently good results what is he doing in C. The only weakness Ike has is that he has a harder neutral game but his punish and strengths are pretty ridiculous and he's placed VERY relevantly (MLG had a bunch, it keeps happening)

How is Dr. Mario in E and not D? Semantics I'm aware but I'm going to point it out. He has pretty relevantly decent top level MUs that I can explain pretty easily if you'd like, but the gist is Fox, Mario, Luigi, Pika, and basically any fastfallers that isn't ZSS. You wouldn't see me putting D3 over Doc EVER, you could probably swap their positions and you'd have a mostly accurate position, or just bump him up, dunno.

 

[EODM07]

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I know Lucina has been a rare sight in tournaments. But I kinda feel like she could be placed a tad higher on the list. Maybe near to where Marth is on the list. Even though she has more even MUs against Pikachu & Falcon compared to the Hero King.

Also, you need to place in S tier and in F tier.

 

[Lavani]

That's quite the Tink optimism.

I do think he's pretty underrated though.

 

[Koiba]

Also, I'm thinking of maybe getting a banner for my YT channel. Since I found a good model of Lucina for SFM. But it's been ages since I last used SFM. :V (So I'm gonna be rusty with that. Plus, I don't even have Photoshop. smh)

You should use this tbh

Spoiler

 

[Rizen]

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IMO 's 1 tier too low.

 

[Rinku リンク]

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Yes Yes Link is a TERRIBLE character !! He should be even lower because he has no POTENTIAL whatsoever hehehe....

Spoiler: Link is so badz

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes Yes Link is a TERRIBLE character !! He should be even lower because he has no POTENTIAL whatsoever hehehe....

Spoiler: Link is so badz

I should've said that about Doc too. I'm smh right now that I didn't, now everyone's gonna know he can easily kill Fox off a grab at 80%!

 

[SBphiloz4]

Ike has had consistently good results what is he doing in C.

How is Dr. Mario in E and not D? Semantics I'm aware but I'm going to point it out. He has pretty relevantly decent top level MUs that I can explain pretty easily if you'd like, but the gist is Fox, Mario, Luigi, Pika, and basically any fastfallers that isn't ZSS.

Has someone other than Ryo been doing good with Ike. I guess San also uses Ike, but I actually haven't looked to see if he got good results too. Also probs still have the "Ike isn't that good" mentality because of pre-patch Sm4sh and Brawl, but idk if he has that good of MUs to be in B.

Doc I was pretty unsure to put him to D or E tbh. Especially when one of my region's PR players is finally re-picking up Doc after dropping him for like 5 billion other characters. So yeah could move him to bottom of D.

I know Lucina has been a rare sight in tournaments. But I kinda feel like she could be placed a tad higher on the list. Maybe near to where Marth is on the list. Even though she has more even MUs against Pikachu & Falcon compared to the Hero King.

People think Lucina is noticeably worse than Marth but I don't see it. They should be in the same tier IMO. Only reason why Lucina is lower is because she's a terrible wa-... ahem, she doesn't get as much results as Marth, and in theory there's stuff Marth just does a tad better.

That's quite the Tink optimism.

I do think he's pretty underrated though.

I was losing to this Tink online and now I think Tink is super cancerous. I must be like Macchiato now!

IMO 's 1 tier too low.

D tier and E tier was definitely the most challenging to make. This was basically made using tourney results and theory craft MU spreads, and I personally feel that Link pales compared to the rest of the cast, unfortunately.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Has someone other than Ryo been doing good with Ike. I guess San also uses Ike, but I actually haven't looked to see if he got good results too. Also probs still have the "Ike isn't that good" mentality because of pre-patch Sm4sh and Brawl, but idk if he has that good of MUs to be in B.

Doc I was pretty unsure to put him to D or E tbh. Especially when one of my region's PR players is finally re-picking up Doc after dropping him for like 5 billion other characters. So yeah could move him to bottom of D.

People think Lucina is noticeably worse than Marth but I don't see it. They should be in the same tier IMO. Only reason why Lucina is lower is because she's a terrible wa-... ahem, she doesn't get as much results as Marth, and in theory there's stuff Marth just does a tad better.

I was losing to this Tink online and now I think Tink is super cancerous. I must be like Macchiato now!


D tier and E tier was definitely the most challenging to make. This was basically made using tourney results and theory craft MU spreads, and I personally feel that Link pales compared to the rest of the cast, unfortunately.

San, Ryo, Rango are just a few Ikes that you should look for. San especially, he's really good. I think Ryo has overall the best results. Ike has good matchups with Sonic and Mario, the character is really, really good and very noticeably the best Fire Emblem. I think his other top tier MUs are very doable, Sheik is annoying I imagine but since that's a common thing I don't think that should greatly change much.

Good/decent top MUs (even if solely counterpicks) are why I think Doc is a middle of D/bottom of C character personally, in that range-ish. He beats Mario, has a good MU with Fox (even, better than Mario's overall), a good Pikachu MU, a good Luigi MU (a bit less relevant now), and Ness hates Doc's edgeguards + the fact that he can't absorb pills at all. Doc also has a good MU vs. Falcon (probably even-ish, maybe slight win) because Doc's shorthop Bair is really annoying for grabs and grounded approaches, two things Falcon does vs. middle height characters a lot. I wouldn't be saying Doc is actually this good if he didn't literally take someone to MLG Grand Finals and then people starting actually exploring the character and using him in tournament. Just placed 4th at a Ktar with secondary usage (Koolaid has a pocket Doc for the Fox MU as a Pac Man main. It's pretty evident something's there.)

Furthermore most of the lower tiered (i.e. middle and lower) characters don't heavily exploit Doc's weaknesses as much as the higher tiered ones, which is why I think he's center D/bottom C, in that range, going by the organization on your list. Purely my opinion but yeah, take it for what you will. Most top players put him at the top of D/borderline C so I go by that as well, I'm not alone in this mindset I suppose.

 

[Koiba]

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where da f*** is supposed to go idunevn

Ummm I have a question

About the angel's placement

I don't really think that the gap between the 2 is that big tbh

Ftilt, multi jab don't make too much of a difference and arms aren't the type of move that changes the playstyle between them


And that leaves with the arrows which imo isn't that big of a difference





Or you could've just been tired

 

[Lil Puddin]

hi ladies. i'm coco and i'm new 'round these parts. jestar sent me.

[ blows pistol smoke ]

hOI!

ur bow ava is sassy, ull fit in gorl

PS: Have fun ridding the sass train. What is its Final Destination? BAN•ZELDA SassSassSass Tier, or BZZZ-SSS Tier for short. BTW, the train is fueled by pure salt from those who stand in the OPSassy Queen's way. How SASSINATING fascinating!

OKS bOI!

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Luigi is borderline high tier IMO.

 

[Cress!]

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my main wi fit isnt d she is s tear bcuz i win a lot on 4 glori wit her
my salt is verE reel its so reel that im typeeng lik a saltE 2th gradr saltsaltsaltsalt your hole tear list suks

 

[SBphiloz4]

Ummm I have a question

About the angel's placement

I don't really think that the gap between the 2 is that big tbh

Ftilt, multi jab don't make too much of a difference and arms aren't the type of move that changes the playstyle between them


And that leaves with the arrows which imo isn't that big of a difference





Or you could've just been tired

- Better arrows and better Side B, therefruit he's generally better overall. Multi-jab might be small but if it's better why not use it? He's also less edgy
- Better MUs against and , can jab lock better with Ftilt. And better taunts. But that's it.

IMO their differences are very similar to and . They are honestly about the same character but one is basically inferior in most MUs, hence the gap. I always thought D.Pit was few character placements worse than Pit tbh.

In other news, Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook is uploading some great news!

 

[TTTTTsd]

But yeah, Dr. Mario and Ike are the only critiques of your list I have SBphiloz4 because I don't have extensive full roster experience and I don't want to talk out my ass.

I'd only put DP one space below Pit too because I don't even think Pit has a better Side-B. Oh it kills at....150? Like, neither of them are very threatening with that move so I don't think it's an incredibly relevant thing. If Pit's was as good as Raptor Boost tho....then maybe I'd see it =P. DP's actually kills earlier (much earlier) with better positioning and it splits up Luma better so like...dunno. I think they're both just...meh moves.

It's mostly just arrows but I don't think the gap is wider than one space because of this, as he still has the devastating throw game and general Pit stuff.

 

[EODM07]

People think Lucina is noticeably worse than Marth but I don't see it. They should be in the same tier IMO. Only reason why Lucina is lower is because she's a terrible wa-... ahem, she doesn't get as much results as Marth, and in theory there's stuff Marth just does a tad better.

I definitely agree that she isn't worse than Marth. She has things that do kind of make her better than him, such as consistency in her blade (which makes her safer on shield compared to Marth who has to space himself). And again, that Lucina has better MUs against Pikachu and Falcon that Marth struggles against. But yet, things that make her worse, like shorter range, inferior frame data too. And that over-exaggerated looking Shield Breaker pose. :V

Just hope she at least gets a pretty good buff in 1.1.3.

 

[SBphiloz4]

But yeah, Dr. Mario and Ike are the only critiques of your list I have SBphiloz4 because I don't have extensive full roster experience and I don't want to talk out my ***.

I'd only put DP one space below Pit too because I don't even think Pit has a better Side-B. Oh it kills at....150? Like, neither of them are very threatening with that move so I don't think it's an incredibly relevant thing. If Pit's was as good as Raptor Boost tho....then maybe I'd see it =P. DP's actually kills earlier (much earlier) with better positioning and it splits up Luma better so like...dunno. I think they're both just...meh moves.

It's mostly just arrows but I don't think the gap is wider than one space because of this, as he still has the devastating throw game and general Pit stuff.

With rage it does kill pretty early. Also gives Pit more stage CP options in T&C and Dreamland. Halberd and Delfino too if they are legal. Since most of the time the Pits want to kill off the side (Fthrow, Fsmash, other things) having an extra threat of being killed from the top IMO makes fighting Pit a lot more challenging than D.Pit especially on said stages.

It ain't no Raptor Boost but I have seen Pit's SideB work better for him than DPit's.

This reminds me of the one time I trolled my region saying that Dark Pit was the worst character with the argument that DPit is overclassed by Pit in almost every way and thus had no niche in the meta. Ayyyy

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also Lucina not that much worse than Marth? Nah. Nahhhh. Let's talk about why! (Warning personal opinion ahead)

She has less vertical reach, ergo less range overall. She can't hit people with Tipper FSmash on platforms above her (try it! Stand under Bowser with both and FSmash, then laugh).

One might say her Utilt is better, I thought so too. Until Marth's stepped him forward giving it more range with utility that is relatively the same. Their Uairs are similar, and while she's not less safe on shield now, they're about the same except Marth is SAFER than her on his tipped normals, but this is VERY minute and not 100% problematic for her because their max space vs. a shield usually doesn't matter at that point unless it's something like Fair. Edgeguarding? Also much better with Marth. Lucina does not have ledgetrump Bair and that REALLY REALLY sucks.

If a tier list is supposed to reflect a character's ranking when played at their best, there's a plateau Lucina hits that Marth exceeds. I don't think she's absolutely atrocious but I'd put Marth and Roy a tier above her or in the case of adjusting someone else's list, bump her down a peg.

She just has a plateau that Marth doesn't and you have, both in theory and execution, less options. Marth also has tipper Nair which is one of the STRONGEST Nairs in the game, killing very efficiently.

To speak of the Pits, I'd be more scared of either Side-B if they weren't just less good Raptor Boosts. Dark Pit's has more utility in a relevant matchup than Pit's, and Pit's just kills a bit better around center stage but I always ALWAYS see Pit players use one of their MUCH BETTER kill options so I wonder how relevant Side-B is, personally. It's mostly good for recovery because of the armor, which both have.

 

[Lavani]

I didn't actually look at the hitbox change between the Pits' rapid jab enders in-game until now.

It affected the hitbox twice as much vertically as it did horizontally, but there's still an obvious dead zone at the tipper of Dark Pit's blade where Pit's hits just fine now.

To speak of the Pits, I'd be more scared of either Side-B if they weren't just less good Raptor Boosts.

?????

They have superarmor unlike Raptor Boost, both do more damage than Raptor Boost, are usable offstage unlike Raptor Boost, and moreover why Raptor Boost as Falcon when you have a faster, more disjointed, and overall more reliable move of that sort in JC usmash?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I didn't actually look at the hitbox change between the Pits' rapid jab enders in-game until now.

It affected the hitbox twice as much vertically as it did horizontally, but there's still an obvious dead zone at the tipper of Dark Pit's blade where Pit's hits just fine now.


?????

They have superarmor unlike Raptor Boost, both do more damage than Raptor Boost, are usable offstage unlike Raptor Boost, and moreover why Raptor Boost as Falcon when you have a faster, more disjointed, and overall more reliable move of that sort in JC usmash?

I don't mean to be that guy but he was talking about its use as a kill move, not as a recovery move, and I was responding solely to that, to alleviate any confusion.In which case, yes, Pit's Side-B, as a kill move, is a decidedly inferior Raptor Boost IMO.

The move overall? Probably not.

There, I fixed this post Lavani

 

[Lavani]

And if you're going to make the point of JC USmash, why not just do that with Pit as well? Or just dashgrab and F-Throw because you'll generally be in ideal position for that.

Pit's usmash doesn't have a good frontal hitbox, and dash grab loses to attacks+is stage position dependent (compared to Upperdash). Raptor Boost is minimum 20 frames startup to usmash's 22 (Upperdash is min.19 as an aside), does a piddly 9% to usmash's 19~24%, lacks the forward disjoint usmash has and has an inferior hitbox in general, doesn't swing until it gets to the opponent letting it be stuffed by jabs, kills later, is less safe on block. It's also worthless in the air, where Upperdash is gimped but still able to kill off the top and is still safe against airdodge.

Like...I think the only time Raptor Boost is really warranted is if you're running away from someone and want to RB toward them to catch them offguard. It's numerically inferior to Falcon's usmash in pretty much every other aspect, but the Pits don't have another move in their arsenal that overshadows the Arms.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pit's usmash doesn't have a good frontal hitbox, and dash grab loses to attacks+is stage position dependent (compared to Upperdash). Raptor Boost is minimum 20 frames startup to usmash's 22 (Upperdash is min.19 as an aside), does a piddly 9% to usmash's 19~24%, lacks the forward disjoint usmash has and has an inferior hitbox in general, doesn't swing until it gets to the opponent letting it be stuffed by jabs, kills later, is less safe on block. It's also worthless in the air, where Upperdash is gimped but still able to kill off the top and is still safe against airdodge.

Like...I think the only time Raptor Boost is really warranted is if you're running away from someone and want to RB toward them to catch them offguard. It's numerically inferior to Falcon's usmash in pretty much every other aspect, but the Pits don't have another move in their arsenal that overshadows the Arms.

Dunno, I just don't see the merit in using either Pit or Falcon's Side-B for kills (esp. in the neutral which is where you land it cause they have no setups). Pit's and Falcon's are both just unsafe and the % Pit's kills at is....really high. Yes Rage can fix it but, dunno. I just don't see it as good and I don't think Pit's overall kit promotes using Upperdash offensively like that. Falcon just doesn't have to, but Pit usually just doesn't WANT to, in my experience.

In either case I don't consider Side-B a very big factor as far as DP vs. Pit goes outside of the Rosalina matchup. Landing either move in neutral for the kill just seems unfeasible in Pit's toolset, he'd probably rather just bait something out, shoot a projectile, or just do...something else really. Considering the very wide punish window on the move should it whiff....

Better off just recovering with it, really.

 

[Rizen]

SBphiloz4

I just have trouble seeing Link an entire tier below characters like WFT, Robin and especially DDD. Or on the same tier as Ganon. He seems about on par with Kirby or Robin, imo. What MUs does DDD even win?

 

[SBphiloz4]

SBphiloz4

I just have trouble seeing Link an entire tier below characters like WFT, Robin and especially DDD. Or on the same tier as Ganon. He seems about on par with Kirby or Robin, imo. What MUs does DDD even win?

This may be personal region bias because Big D and another person in my region's PR kicks a lot of butt with their D3s, should they actually use them over their higher tier secondaries. Dedede is not that good by any means, but I do feel like some of his tools are underappreciated. Grab game is quite decent, and his survivability with recovery and ceilings, especially in a game like Sm4sh, gives him a defensive niche.

And hey, he beats Zelda, so that's always a MU to look out for, right? :^)

I really need to see/fight some good offline Link stuff to make a judgement but as of now, this is where I will put him.

 

[Guido65]

SBphiloz4

I just have trouble seeing Link an entire tier below characters like WFT, Robin and especially DDD. Or on the same tier as Ganon. He seems about on par with Kirby or Robin, imo. What MUs does DDD even win?

DDD has a decent matchup vs rosalina, DDD doesn't win but he doesn't do horrible vs her since most of his attacks are good for separating rosaluma. But yeah I'd say link is on par with kirby and robin.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Speaking just on results I would put Ike in C tier, but I think he will be higher down the road once people start playing him now that he is good.

 

[r_greening1]

SBphiloz4
What MUs does DDD even win?

Spoiler: cri

 

[Lavani]

I just have trouble seeing Link an entire tier below characters like WFT

You should ask an Australian about that.
KuroganeHammer

Also Dedede is pretty bad and probably bottom 5 imo, but he lives for years and can punish you hard for making bad decisions, so fights with him still tend to be stressful and drawn-out even when you're playing a character that theoretically stomps him. Where he is on Phil's list is around where I'd see him if he still had his 1.0.0 dthrow and Gordos.

Big D makes the character look good either way.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wii Fit trainer is broken tbh

We have two obscenely good ones here, some American tweeted about waveguiders Wii fit and called it the best in the world

 

[IsmaR]

Speaking of Wii Fit

 

[Koiba]

I just completed round 1 in Pokémon Stadium


With only using rentals because I have no transfer pack




My childhood dream finally came true

 

[Cress!]

Yoga Trainers celebrate Christmas too.
Also ty for prank status gorls.

 

[McKnightlíght]

You're welcome

 

[Furret]

 

[Jestar]

I just completed round 1 in Pokémon Stadium


With only using rentals because I have no transfer pack




My childhood dream finally came true

Great job. I did the same thing many, many years ago and it felt some good to finally beat it.

I actually managed to beat round 1 twice with rentals way back when and made it pretty far in round 2 with rentals but I used the transfer pack to get past the ones I couldn't beat. Made a huge difference.