Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Macchiato]

You guys (Zelda boards) haven't even discussed all the MU's yet.

My personal opinion...

Also I can get a vid of squall against Mac up pretty soon

 

[Berserker.]

My personal opinion...

Whoops. My bad.

Tell me why im whooping a mii gunner and brawler ***? Like at this very moment.

MK is pretty good against Brawler and Gunner. I think?

But **** MK. Switch to Diddy

 

[Gay Ginger]

No not at all. Squall Help some matches tremendously. Diddy kong probably becomes a 45-55 and Peach, ZSS, and Little Mac probably go even. Even so, she has more variety in match ups with the phantoms and dins. I think she benefits pretty decently.

Atm her Match up spread is:
3/6 even
2/6 bad
1/6 good

With customs I think her match ups will be
4/6 even
1/6 bad
1/6 good

Sorry sis, don't believe it.

Maybe results will prove me wrong, but until then I think Zelda is better off with customs off.

 

[Macchiato]

Sorry sis, don't believe it.

Maybe results will prove me wrong, but until then I think Zelda is better off with customs off.

So I'll be going custom zelda for my next tournament gorls

 

[Blossom ✿]

I still know of some players that can work well with Little Mac. He has those really good and really horrendous match ups so he's a decent counterpick at a default setting

With customs, he's hopeless

Yeah, in default, the MUs he does win are where Mac will get to shine, so default Mac isn't as hopeless as I thought.
In custom, however... his bad MUs are made worse (and he has a lot of them) and what Little Mac gets just isn't enough to help the poor guy.
Does Little Mac even have any good MUs in custom? If so, I'd think they have to be against characters that don't benefit from customs at all and no one is really coming to mind.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm playing Zelda on FG and my opponent also went Zelda and changed their name to Queen LOL

Sorry sis, don't believe it.

Maybe results will prove me wrong, but until then I think Zelda is better off with customs off.

Squall actually helps a lot against characters like ZSS bc it gets out of Boost Kick and possibly fsmash

 

[HeroMystic]

Little Mac is just that one character that I simply can't say is viable at all whether be it in default or custom.
His flaws are already apparent in default, but in custom they're made worse thanks to there being so many windboxes.
Mac just has no potential in the custom scene since other characters not only get stuff that make them better, they also get stuff that pretty much counters Mac (windbox shenanigans). We'll just see how it all unfolds, though.

Little Mac legit stands a decent chance against Diddy and Luigi. Diddy's camp game isn't that strong and Luigi can't afford to camp. He's also really solid against Captain Falcon and some Falcon mains in my area are pretty sure Mac has the advantage in that MU. For the majority of non high tiers he's a pretty solid counterpick with FD in your back pocket, so in the default setting, he has his place.

In Customs, he gets wrecked left and right for reasons already stated.

 

[Blossom ✿]

Little Mac legit stands a decent chance against Diddy and Luigi. Diddy's camp game isn't that strong and Luigi can't afford to camp. He's also really solid against Captain Falcon and some Falcon mains in my area are pretty sure Mac has the advantage in that MU. For the majority of non high tiers he's a pretty solid counterpick with FD in your back pocket, so in the default setting, he has his place.

In Customs, he gets wrecked left and right for reasons already stated.

Thinking about it again, yeah, in default Mac has his place and maybe I was too harsh on him in default.
In the custom scene however... no one is going to convince me Little Mac is viable with all those windboxes and what not.

 

[PUK]

Anyone wanna play wiiU? If you want to taste rob custom i'm here

 

[FullMoon]

Anyone wanna play wiiU? If you want to taste rob custom i'm here

I'll give it a shot.

 

[warionumbah2]

Whoops. My bad.

MK is pretty good against Brawler and Gunner. I think?

But **** MK. Switch to Diddy

Mii Brawler has God like mobility, MK cannot compete with that. His disadvantage state is hella dumb, that dumb flying kick is hard to punish and after his up B he can weave to the ledge to avoid punishment.

But his kill options are so bad and his range is worse than Mario's, his edgeguard attempts are linear and his tatsumaki senpakyu doesn't even kill MK below 100% with proper DI. The moment you're fighting around the center stage how on earth does he kill reliably?

He used 1322 on Brawler and his mii was super small, disjoints ruins him imo so Shulk will love this MU. He used Gunner and i 2 stocked him on SV(yes 2 stocks ew) but he switched.

Thinking about it again, yeah, in default Mac has his place and maybe I was too harsh on him in default.
In the custom scene however... no one is going to convince me Little Mac is viable with all those windboxes and what not.

He sucks in default and he's even worse in customs? Bruh that's kinda brutal.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Y'know, if customs end up being banned again, I... might just stop playing this game seriously, at least for a little while. Palutena is pretty much the only character in this game I enjoy playing enough to NOT get bored and switch after just a few matches.

Although, I've really taken a liking to Meta Knight recently. I find him incredibly fun to play right now but I'm not sure if it'll stay that way. Even if it does, I'll still be super-demoralized if this happens.

 

[Berserker.]

I'll give it a shot.

RIP Full Moon

(November 3, 2014 - March 23, 2015)
(Cause: Metallic Hoo Hah)

Mii Brawler has God like mobility, MK cannot compete with that. His disadvantage state is hella dumb, that dumb flying kick is hard to punish and after his up B he can weave to the ledge to avoid punishment.

But his kill options are so bad and his range is worse than Mario's, his edgeguard attempts are linear and his tatsumaki senpakyu doesn't even kill MK below 100% with proper DI. The moment you're fighting around the center stage how on earth does he kill reliably?

He used 1322 on Brawler and his mii was super small, disjoints ruins him imo so Shulk will love this MU. He used Gunner and i 2 stocked him on SV(yes 2 stocks ew) but he switched.

That's good to know man. I tip my hat to thee

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.twitch.tv/xsplit/b/639599734

Waifu, I didn't know Shulk was in Street Fighter 4.

 

[Macchiato]

@ S.F.L.R_9 can you test if the end Hitbox of squall true combos into uair on fox? He's a fast faller so maybe. Like when it's not edge canceled

 

[Berserker.]

Waifu, I didn't know Shulk was in Street Fighter 4.

Some SFIV footage was in the stream. There was a tournament for that too. It was also hype. Haha

I'll time stamp for you. Wait a moment

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ S.F.L.R_9 can you test if the end Hitbox of squall true combos into uair on fox? He's a fast faller so maybe. Like when it's not edge canceled

Yeah give me a few minutes

 

[Berserker.]

@ HeroMystic

36:04 (Start)

 

[PUK]

I'll give it a shot.

Let's go if u want.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ Macchiato It's not even close to comboing

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato It's not even close to comboing

I guess all we can do is bait an airdodge. That's what I did to ginger last night and it worked. It's also really good when you pop them above battlefields highest platform

 

[FullMoon]

Let's go if u want.

I've already made the room.

 

[PUK]

Does squall easier to ledge cancel? It seems to be the case to me.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh lord that input lag.

I knew my internet was being bad but jesus.

 

[PUK]

I've already made the room.

Omg lag is awful
Maybe the fact that we are too distant too

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah I think I won't be playing Smash today either. Internet is being terrible.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I find myself wanting to agree with @ Seagull Joe the more I watch customs tournaments.

They're fun, and I'm sure later down the line, they won't look as silly in a serious match. On the other hand, I can't really with 100% confidence say to myself that this is the norm I want. Not because they're broken, but characters that get elevated by customs are really held together by powerful gimmicks.

But lemme tell you about Mario's customs.

No one cares about the Fireballs, they're balanced.
Gust Cape is not as awesome as everyone initially thought, but overall it's better than Super Cape. I don't have much of an opinion on Shocking Cape.

The FLUDDs though. Lol, these FLUDDs, though.

Scalding FLUDD legit patches up any weaknesses Mario has in footsies. It's that good. A Mario that knows how to use Scalding FLUDD is a Mario that should only be losing to Diddy.

And HP FLUDD is HILLLARIOUS!

To anyone that has this custom: B-Throw @ 70% off the stage, then edgeguard with HP FLUDD. The knockback is so powerful the target just gets blown past the blast zone.

And it gets stronger with rage.
And your opponent can't air dodge through the entire windbox (which is consistently powerful).

I've wrecked so many players on Wi-Fi with this I dunno what to say. "It takes 5 seconds tho" who cares. Buffer charge that ****.

When I think about it this way... who enjoys getting janked like this? In fact, who would enjoy setting up counterplays against this? Do I really wanna handle Kong Cyclone, Fire Spin Dash, Villager Ledge Camping, etc? I know a good amount of characters don't have the luxury of having these types of moves, but lets seriously think about this. Is it fun? That's the question that should be answered.

See this is why I like you. You don't brush off what I say, but accept plausible reasons for both sides. Most people are just outright FOR or AGAINST customs without considering the other side's opinion.

I consider the other side, which is why I said customs would be better as a side tournament and more data needs to be gathered before drastic changes to rule sets are done. I've been watching, examining, and experimenting with customs. They provide powerful gimmicks without giving the character's other moves even a consideration. "Powerful exploits" is my best term for customs.

 

[PUK]

If today we vote "do we have to play custom on" on smashboard and reddit, the answer will be yes. So let's stop debating, sm4sh is not close to die, we can experiment a lot. If it happens to destroy the compétitive scene we will get back because we don't need to do zero mistake right now. À contrario we have to know if we can do this

 

[Berserker.]

How about we just play the game instead of worrying about its "inevitable death?"

 

[Seagull Joe]

If today we vote "do we have to play custom on" on smashboard and reddit, the answer will be yes. So let's stop debating, sm4sh is not close to die, we can experiment a lot. If it happens to destroy the compétitive scene we will get back because we don't need to do zero mistake right now. À contrario we have to know if we can do this

Because smashboards and reddit are full of casuals. I wish there was a tourney-goer only option for voting...

 

[warionumbah2]

The most casual thing on this site is the swf list. That **** is doomed for failure.

 

[PUK]

Because smashboards and reddit are full of casuals. I wish there was a tourney-goer only option for voting...

Are you an aristocrate? Only those who are better should decide?

 

[Macchiato]

Honestly I'm all for customs.

 

[PUK]

Lol custom on
Every character: "oh yeah i can get a powerful gimmick and spam it"
Zelda: "oh yeah i can finally throw away my powerful gimmick, and get a solid move instead"

 

[Macchiato]

Lol custom on
Every character: "oh yeah i can get a powerful gimmick and spam them"
Zelda: "oh yeah i can finally throw away my powerful gimmick, and get a solid move instead"

No not really. Squall is as good as wind. It's just not fully explored.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

See this is why I like you. You don't brush off what I say, but accept plausible reasons for both sides. Most people are just outright FOR or AGAINST customs without considering the other side's opinion.

I consider the other side, which is why I said customs would be better as a side tournament and more data needs to be gathered before drastic changes to rule sets are done. I've been watching, examining, and experimenting with customs. They provide powerful gimmicks without giving the character's other moves even a consideration. "Powerful exploits" is my best term for customs.

I do consider it, I do see potential problems down the line. I do see how moves can be so obnoxious or broken that it makes the game not fun anymore. I also see potential.

The problem is whats the point in dropping everything right now? I'm fully prepared for the possibility that customs are bad. The game doesn't need them after all. But I feel more experimentation needs to be done before an ultimate conclusion can be made.

I think both for and against have a lot of holes in it, but when it comes down to it, I still want to see it keep going for now to see what else we find out.

This isn't about me being FOR them. This is about me not seeing enough evidence to make a conclusion.

How about we just play the game instead of worrying about its "inevitable death?"

I only brought that up because thats what I kept hearing. "The game is going to die with this or that."

Trust me, I just want to play the game myself. I'm not worried.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Customs really need to be seen in play before a ruling is decided on them. If we can't even decide on an official tier list yet, we shouldn't be deciding on something that makes the game even deeper.

 

[Berserker.]

As a (not-that-known) tournament player, I'm not really fond of customs. Most viewers like customs though and they'd want the tournament players to try customs out. Even if tournament players express their iffy-ness with customs, viewers always want to have things go their way. This is really present even outside the whole customs debate. Anyone that plays Diddy gets thrashed. Anyone that tries to play campy gets thrashed. Although the viewers can't do **** to how players play in a tournament, they can really mess with it by legalizing customs.

The viewers do NOT understand the problems that will arise with customs being legalized.

I know customs are fun to watch. To be honest, I have fun watching some custom matches but there have been a number of controversial customs/custom sets already. Take note that customs haven't been that developed yet so they may become much more formidable in the future when more strategies are found with the said customs. I'd rather play around with customs at side tournaments. It's really too early and we need more data regarding them. This is probably the safest way to determine if customs are fine or not. Making customs legal right off the bat for the final rule set is REALLY risky.

Think about it, if we walk in the path we're currently walking in this early without even knowing much about what can potentially come up ahead, we're setting ourselves up for a risk. Could be amazing. Could be bad. It's always best to play it safe, right?

So yeah, I'd play it safe. I don't think EVO will change their rule set though. Idk. If so then prepare for the biggest #adapt of your lives, EVO players. Unless you're not going because of the random chances of losing to Diddy main number X

 

[Macchiato]

Customs really need to be seen in play before a ruling is decided on them. If we can't even decide on an official tier list yet, we shouldn't be deciding on something that makes the game even deeper.

I just want cancer crescent slash to be legal

 

[HeroMystic]

I do want to say regardless of customs, I'll be playing the game and working at becoming a top level player (hell, I'm going to a customs tournament today because I want more experience). The question is simply will I enjoy the game more with customs on or off.

@ Berserker. This Shulk is pretty co--OH LOOK A MARIO PLAYER!