Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Brinzy]

> spend forever and a half trying to get 10 fighters in smash tour
> start up a game of smash tour and let it time all my actions out
> end up with 10 fighters in 15 turns literally doing nothing

What in the ****.

 

[warionumbah2]

= Rubbish
= Bin
= Lid

This spoiler made me cry so hard. TT-TT Poor guy having to put up with that.

Spoiler

 

[kenniky]

I always wanted to argue that was the worst character in Brawl, but it was hard because sucked so bad haha.

Gotta love Ivysaur in PM though.

Bullet Seed though :<

Ivysaur in PM is really awesome. He has the Giant Punch/Din's Fire/Burst Grenade weirdness with SolarBeam though /cry

Same thing happened to me with Brawler's nair. Like, it's unreal.

Wait, Brawler's nair isn't that long... Shulk though /cry
Although Brawler's vertical recovery is extremely trash (prob worse than Little Mac LOL) so I guess

My "probability to return" tier list for characters cut from previous games (not ordered within tiers):

S: Ice Climbers
A: Wolf, Lucas
B: Squirtle, Ivysaur
C: Snake
D: Pichu, Roy, Young Link

The Melee clones basically have no chance of returning. Pichu was a joke character in the first place, Roy would be pointless thanks to Lucina (who I feel should be assimilated into Marth as an alt), and Young Link was replaced by Toon Link and doesn't really exist in new Zelda games (MM is a remake, it doesn't count). Doc has been made different enough although I feel he could get a few moveset tweaks.

Snake and the other Pokémon would switch places were it not for Snake being third party and really only being in Brawl as a favor to Hideo Kojima. Squirtle and Ivysaur were kind of weird additions in the first place (Ivysaur moreso), though they were unique. I'd rather see Snake back before them, though.

Wolf and Lucas were interesting takes on established characters (Wolf was my favorite to play as from that series) and I could see them come back. Ice Climbers were intended to be included in Smash 4 and were only omitted due to hardware limitations, so they seem like they woukd be made top priority if a workaround is ever found.

I'll list some characters I think are likely to be newcomers some other time.

Ice Climbers I think is a definite in Smash 5
Everything else is kinda ehh though
They brought back Dr. Mario though so who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Holy **** I'm gonna work with the director of "The Rescuers: Down Under."

Holy SH*T.

F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK

I'm a bit excited.

That's actually so cool :o
Are you an animator or something?
Isn't that the movie with the naked woman in the window for like 2 frames

So hey this is directed at all of you girls, but if you could make ONE change to Zelda what would it be and why.

Dress her up like a ninja obviously

Then she'd actually be decent

 

[Macchiato]

Welp I've resigned as zelda optimist. No longer optimistic.

I still think Shes mid but once the meta changes. That's it.

I main peach now gorls

 

[Fernosaur]

Actually I think we can all agree that just one change isn't enough for Zelda :'D There are so many things wrong with her...

This I think would make her VERY good, and it's just a matter of tweaking her currently existing moveset:

- Change Din's Fire so that it 1) doesn't put you into free-fall, and 2) you can "mine" the battlefield with at least 2 fires to control approaches. (This could be done using Din's Blaze as a basis).
- Change Phantom so it's storeable like Charged Shot.
- Make Farore's Wind able to be cancelled through an air-dodge or attack by sacrificing distance and the final hit. If cancelled mid-air it cannot be used again until you hit the ground.
- Make U-smash much bigger. Maybe not as big as Brawl cause everyone had hitboxes nerfed but definitely bigger.
- Make D-smash 1 frame faster and increase range slightly.
- Make away with F-tilt's blindspot.
- Increase KBG or damage of u-air slightly.

One last change that I think would benefit Zelda a LOT is a change to her fair. Sure, we all love the lightning kicks, but do we really need two? :'D I think a move with a big, lingering hitbox in front of her sorta like Ness or Peach would make her so much better. Like, so so much better.

Wait, Brawler's nair isn't that long... Shulk though /cry
Although Brawler's vertical recovery is extremely trash (prob worse than Little Mac LOL) so I guess

That's actually so cool :o
Are you an animator or something?
Isn't that the movie with the naked woman in the window for like 2 frames

It's not that long but yeah Helicopter Kick has non-existant vertical recovery.

And I'm not an animator (although I've animated sprites before). I'm gonna be doing concept art for environments and character design. I'm an illustrator You can find my work in my signature, actually!

Oh and the movie with the naked woman was the first Rescuers movie XD. Down Under is the sequel which is so much better.

 

[Macchiato]

She was actually incomplete in melee. A big portion of her moves shared animations. I feel that sakurai just made her and threw her out and never touched her again. She got the most complaints at E3 yet she wasn't changed at all.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

One last change that I think would benefit Zelda a LOT is a change to her fair. Sure, we all love the lightning kicks, but do we really need two? :'D I think a move with a big, lingering hitbox in front of her sorta like Ness or Peach would make her so much better. Like, so so much better.



It's not that long but yeah Helicopter Kick has non-existant vertical recovery.

And I'm not an animator (although I've animated sprites before). I'm gonna be doing concept art for environments and character design. I'm an illustrator You can find my work in my signature, actually!

Oh and the movie with the naked woman was the first Rescuers movie XD. Down Under is the sequel which is so much better.

If Zelda had a disjointed fair like that she would actually be able to...
APPROACH?!?!
You know Zelda is bad when even a simple change like that would make her a lot better lol

Oh and btw it's really cool that you're going to work on a movie! :D Good luck & I hope it works out <3

She was actually incomplete in melee. A big portion of her moves shared animations. I feel that sakurai just made her and threw her out and never touched her again. She got the most complaints at E3 yet she wasn't changed at all.

I feel like he just doesn't care about her.

Spoiler

: How can we make Zelda better?
Us: No freefall on Din's! An approaching move.

: I KNOW! LET'S GIVE HER A RECOVERY THAT IS A KILL COMBO AT 70%!

:
Farore's killing literally makes no sense and it was her least needed buff smh

 

[kenniky]

And I'm not an animator (although I've animated sprites before). I'm gonna be doing concept art for environments and character design. I'm an illustrator You can find my work in my signature, actually!

That's still super neat though :o
Also I totally forgot about that, I guess I just got used to seeing insane Zelda kick Ike in the face LOL

 

[Macchiato]

@ Fernosaur yew got an acting roll? Yay for yew sis.

If Zelda had a disjointed fair like that she would actually be able to...
APPROACH?!?!
You know Zelda is bad when even a simple change like that would make her a lot better lol

Oh and btw it's really cool that you're going to work on a movie! :D Good luck & I hope it works out <3

I feel like he just doesn't care about her.

Spoiler

: How can we make Zelda better?
Us: No freefall on Din's! An approaching move.

: I KNOW! LET'S GIVE HER A RECOVERY THAT IS A KILL COMBO AT 70%!

:
farore's killing literally makes no sense ok

He just doesn't care about competitive players period. After yew hear him say "Smash competitively has no future" that should say something.

Also imo this is what needs changing

Faster jab

No blindspot for ftilt

Brawl Dtilt

People should stay in her smashes

More Usmash range

Dsmash should be stronger

Change fair into something like paletunas

Brawl uair

Make dins fire into falco lazer but better

Storable phantom

Or

Completely recreate her

 

[Cenizas]

Seriously though, she really needs to have Din's reworked. Preferably, it should become something like PK Thunder, Arcfire, or PM Din's. But if Sakuratena wants to keep it similar to the original, I want to be able to move while Din's is out. Here's how I want to see it if that's how it's gonna be:

Din's Fire- You can change the angle like before, but letting go will lock the wisp into moving in that angle until the wisp reaches max distance or aligns with an opponent. You're able to move freely once you let go, but only one wisp can be out at a time. If you preform Din's again while a wisp is out, it will detonate prematurely and you send out another wisp.

Din's Flare- Faster, so it's easier to spam for approaching or forcing approaches, but not being able to angle it and the smaller blast makes it harder to hit with and harder to capitalize on hit.

Din's Blaze- Letting go locks the wisp in place rather than keeping it going. Stationary wisps are active for 5-10 seconds or until an opponent touches it, then it detonates. The one wisp cannot be replaced until it explodes on it's own. So pretty much a different kind of PM Din's. Great for combos.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

He just doesn't care about competitive players period. After yew hear him say "Smash competitively has no future" that should say something.

Completely recreate her

I know, it's sad he doesn't care about the competitive scene. He probably doesn't change Zelda cuz she's omg so broken!!! in ffa.

Zelda being recreated is a good idea...she's just too flawed to salvage at this point. By the time the developers fixed everything wrong with her moveset, she could have already received a new one.

 

[Fernosaur]

I even want to make a short animation of how a better Fair could look, and it would be classier and more in-character than HIYAAH EAT MY FOOT. I mean wtf who came up with that?

 

[Lavani]

In seriousness, I don't think Zelda has these huge glaring flaws that require a total redesign of her character, it's just a bunch of tiny little quality of life tweaks that would make her much more enjoyable and usable without changing how she plays much.

Stuff like:

Phantom Slash

- Allow Zelda to store the charge
- Increase hitbox size to fix blindspot issues (base Phantom hitboxes upgrade to Strike's hitboxes, Strike upgrades accordingly)​

Din's Fire

- Change the explosion to transcendent priority, so it doesn't get beaten out by any random hitbox the opponent throws out
- Less startup and endlag, explosion occurs more quickly
- Zelda isn't put into helpless when used midair​

All multihits

- Use autolink angles to prevent opponents from falling out​

Uair

- Increased KO power and/or less startup​

Nair

- Reduce landing lag by ~8-10 frames, its landing lag is absurd for the type of move it is​

Fair, Bair

- Stronger sourspot hit; maybe something like 6% and enough knockback/hitstun to make it safe on hit.​

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Seriously though, she really needs to have Din's reworked. Preferably, it should become something like PK Thunder, Arcfire, or PM Din's. But if Sakuratena wants to keep it similar to the original, I want to be able to move while Din's is out. Here's how I want to see it if that's how it's gonna be:

Din's Fire- You can change the angle like before, but letting go will lock the wisp into moving in that angle until the wisp reaches max distance or aligns with an opponent. You're able to move freely once you let go, but only one wisp can be out at a time. If you preform Din's again while a wisp is out, it will detonate prematurely and you send out another wisp.

Din's Flare- Faster, so it's easier to spam for approaching or forcing approaches, but not being able to angle it and the smaller blast makes it harder to hit with and harder to capitalize on hit.

Din's Blaze- Letting go locks the wisp in place rather than keeping it going. Stationary wisps are active for 5-10 seconds or until an opponent touches it, then it detonates. The one wisp cannot be replaced until it explodes on it's own. So pretty much a different kind of PM Din's. Great for combos.

thats kind of what i was thinking Dins should be like. because as it is Dins has a bonus of not being reflectable/pocket only absorbed and i don't want it to lose that feature.

flare i think should just be faster and weaker, no more KO and still be just as controllable. like luigi fireball weak.

I know, it's sad he doesn't care about the competitive scene. He probably doesn't change Zelda cuz she's omg so broken!!! in ffa.

Zelda being recreated is a good idea...she's just too flawed to salvage at this point. By the time the developers fixed everything wrong with her moveset, she could have already received a new one.

she really just needs to be optimized to be either faster or stronger and safer, this way her lagginess has merit. even Ganon is safe on block. Fair i wouldn't mind changed though, maybe to an air palm burst or something that has a sweetspot to keep with tradition.

 

[Fernosaur]

In seriousness, I don't think Zelda has these huge glaring flaws that require a total redesign of her character, it's just a bunch of tiny little quality of life tweaks that would make her much more enjoyable and usable without changing how she plays much.

Stuff like:

Phantom Slash

- Allow Zelda to store the charge
- Increase hitbox size to fix blindspot issues (base Phantom hitboxes upgrade to Strike's hitboxes, Strike upgrades accordingly)​

Din's Fire

- Change the explosion to transcendent priority, so it doesn't get beaten out by any random hitbox the opponent throws out
- Less startup and endlag, explosion occurs more quickly
- Zelda isn't put into helpless when used midair​

All multihits

- Use autolink angles to prevent opponents from falling out​

Uair

- Increased KO power and/or less startup​

Nair

- Reduce landing lag by ~8-10 frames, its landing lag is absurd for the type of move it is​

Fair, Bair

- Stronger sourspot hit; maybe something like 6% and enough knockback/hitstun to make it safe on hit.​

We don't want her to be "usable" though, we want her to be good oTL

 

[Rickster]

@ Fernosaur yew got an acting roll? Yay for yew sis.


He just doesn't care about competitive players period. After yew hear him say "Smash competitively has no future" that should say something.

Also imo this is what needs changing

Faster jab

No blindspot for ftilt

Brawl Dtilt

People should stay in her smashes

More Usmash range

Dsmash should be stronger

Change fair into something like paletunas

Brawl uair

Make dins fire into falco lazer but better

Storable phantom

Or

Completely recreate her

The part about competitive smash having no future was a mistranslation. He was meaning more of "If I only make Smash for competitive gamers, then it has no future." Which is somewhat true, since the casual players probably greatly outnumber competitive players like us.

Not necessarily saying I agree with Sakurai not supporting us, I just wanted to clear that one bit up.

 

[Furret]

In seriousness, I don't think Zelda has these huge glaring flaws that require a total redesign of her character, it's just a bunch of tiny little quality of life tweaks that would make her much more enjoyable and usable without changing how she plays much.

Stuff like:

Phantom Slash

- Allow Zelda to store the charge
- Increase hitbox size to fix blindspot issues (base Phantom hitboxes upgrade to Strike's hitboxes, Strike upgrades accordingly)​

Din's Fire

- Change the explosion to transcendent priority, so it doesn't get beaten out by any random hitbox the opponent throws out
- Less startup and endlag, explosion occurs more quickly
- Zelda isn't put into helpless when used midair​

All multihits

- Use autolink angles to prevent opponents from falling out​

Uair

- Increased KO power and/or less startup​

Nair

- Reduce landing lag by ~8-10 frames, its landing lag is absurd for the type of move it is​

Fair, Bair

- Stronger sourspot hit; maybe something like 6% and enough knockback/hitstun to make it safe on hit.​

you forgot the reverse hit that ftilt used to have, sorry I kinda liked that

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

ayyyyy my Smash soundtrack came in the mail
/blasts Zelda music while I sob about how horrible she is

you forgot the reverse hit that ftilt used to have, sorry I kinda liked that

Speaking of ftilt, it'd be cool if it had the same angle from Brawl that made them go towards/behind Zelda. With this game having combos, you would be able to do some pretty nifty things with it like ftilt to LK

 

[Lorde]

Where is the blind spot in ftilt? I use that move way more than I should and I've only had it happen once.

_

I miss ftilt>bair in Brawl. I also miss the old utilt but I feel like I'm alone on that one.

 

[Rickster]

ayyyyy my Smash soundtrack came in the mail
/blasts Zelda music while I sob about how horrible she is


Speaking of ftilt, it'd be cool if it had the same angle from Brawl that made them go towards/behind Zelda. With this game having combos, you would be able to do some pretty nifty things with it like ftilt to LK

Knowing Sakurai that's probably why they changed the angle

 

[Cenizas]

Zelda definitely does not need an overhaul to her character. She just needs some old stuff back and some small tweaks overall. While she's trash now, I like the way she feels currently and idk if I'd main her still if she had a different style. I want her to be the same as she is now, just better.

What we need back from Brawl: Smashes, Aerials, u-tilt(I don't like it as a combo move, I can get the same follow-ups with d-throw. Not necessary though.)
What needs to be adjusted:
Phantom- Give it more damage or more hp and time present. Also, make it storable or use a callback system like JigglyZelda suggested.
Din's- The only thing she has that truly needs a redesign, IMO.

And bam, solid character. Eat that, Sakurai.

 

[UkeNicky]

I would redesign Din's Fire as an approach tool; think of those annoying projectiles in games that start slow then suddenly get wayyy faster. Like that but with a touch of upward/downward tracking. So Zelda could toss one out then run up to her enemy as the wisp comes behind covering her tracks :3

And the Phantom Knight I'm not sure how to make him better but definitely the ability to store him and increase his HP.
Aside from that I would say maybe make the move faster and not so laggy.

I always wondered why Fair/Bair are the same and waitasecond, don't people opt for Bair cuz it's faster or something?
Whatever the case I'd rather they be more balanced on sour hits, whatever make it so it isn't so horribly punishable like UGH.

Oh but the one change I'd make is Din's Fire to be like that, a homing approach/pressure tool :3

 

[SBphiloz4]

CAN WE FIX THAT FTILT DEAD ZONE. PLS SAKURAI.

It's our best kill move at higher percentages but I'm scared to throw it out because what if the opponent just so happened to be in that invisible part where the move CLEARLY JUST GOES THROUGH THE OPPONENT FOR NO REASON.

WHY DOES THIS EVEN EXIST!?!?!?!?! ; w ;

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Where is the blind spot in ftilt? I use that move way more than I should and I've only had it happen once.

_

I miss ftilt>bair in Brawl. I also miss the old utilt but I feel like I'm alone on that one.

Omg Brawl utilt was one of my favorite moves of hers. If you didn't main or play Zelda you didn't even know that move existed so kills with it were just lol

Plus, she literally waves goodbye to her opponent as they fly to their sparkly death; that alone makes it the best KO move ever. :^)

 

[Rickster]

If they STILL don't change Din's in the next game, maybe they'll give us the ability to control the speed of it, so we can throw off dodges. Shield still wins though....

But it's probably the best thing we can get since they're probably never going to change this move.

EDIT: Or maybe even move it backwards or something, lol.

 

[warionumbah2]

That moment when all of these ideas to make Zelda solid will never happen. The dream is ded.

 

[Lorde]

Plus, she literally waves goodbye to her opponent as they fly to their sparkly death; that alone makes it the best KO move ever. :^)

lol i posted basically the exact same thing like 20-30 pages back.

Spoiler: idk why i went back to page 480 to find this but i did lol

Sis, Brawl utilt was the sassiest kill option. She literally waved goodbye to the opponents while murdering them with sparkles.

But yes, Brawl utilt was my favorite move of hers and I now refuse to use her utilt because it's no longer as fun as it used to be. Too bad Sakurai will never change it back.

 

[BJN39]

Question Time!
: If you could, would you rather have...

LKs that have the Melee frame data, but their current hit-box scheme, or Melee hit-box scheme, with SSB4 frame data?

Keep in mind Melee kicks had EVEN BETTER frame data than Brawl's.

Spoiler: HINT

You can'T have both in this situation gorl.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

why are you all so young
stop that

Damn @ Fernosaur that sounds awesome

Age doesn't have anything to do with it. I've seen rescuers down under quite a bit myself.

 

[Cenizas]

What were the Melee hitboxes like?

 

[Lorde]

What were the Melee hitboxes like?

 

[Rickster]

Question Time!
: If you could, would you rather have...

LKs that have the Melee frame data, but their current hit-box scheme, or Melee hit-box scheme, with SSB4 frame data?

Keep in mind Melee kicks had EVEN BETTER frame data than Brawl's.

Spoiler: HINT

You can'T have both in this situation gorl.

Hmm....I would like the Melee hitboxes. More sweetspots = good. The lag wouldn't be as bad if you landed them much more often. We also have tiny sweetspot training from Brawl and this game, so we would land them like 90% of the time.

Probably the only one who thinks this xD

 

[Cenizas]

MY GOD THATS HUGE

 

[FullMoon]

Today I got home by car because my friend was talking to some new guy who just started attending classes and said guy offered to give us a ride home. I was a bit hesitant to go with him since I didn't know him, but since I was with a friend (or at least someone I talk frequently enough to consider one) was with me I decided to go with it. He brought me right in front of my house since it was in his path anyway.

Considering I spent 20 minutes waiting for a bus to get to college and arrived late, I guess that was life's way of compensating for it =P

 

[Furret]

What were the Melee hitboxes like?

so like, you can just go to the melee zelda boards. See some new and old faces there as well

 

[McKnightlíght]

Woah! Is she spinning to the left or right?!

 

[kenniky]

Woah! Is she spinning to the left or right?!

definitely to the left

now this I'm not too sure about

ayyyyy my Smash soundtrack came in the mail
/blasts Zelda music while I sob about how horrible she is

TRAINS INTENSIFY

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran I've been meaning to ask if you think accele-reflector is any good in doubles. I was thinking about it could be useful for pushing forward big, meaty projectiles like the tree or Samus's Dense Charge Shot. I was hoping that you might have an idea on whether it might work, because I have no friends and making CPUs do what you want is a pain so testing is going awful for me.

I have no friends neither.

Well, friends to test this with and a Wii U since testing this with a 3DS probably won't be easy. I guess the issue would be timing and placement. Falco has to be shot at to do anything which means either he's shot from behind, dodges somehow, and uses Accele-Reflector or he's shot from the front and the shooter has to dodge before Falco does anything. With slower projectiles, it might be predictable even with a setup and also, I don't know how far Dense Charge Shot would go or how long it would last. The other is that it's incredibly risky and most likely Falco will die or the end lag will kill the shooter if they shoot from the front.

Honestly, I don't know. Falco's Reflector isn't like Villager's Pocket which is godplayer in doubles and it doesn't last long or can be held down like Fox's Reflector which would make it safer.

 

[BJN39]

Just an FYI to anyone looking at the Melee hit-boxes for FAir/BAir, there is an actual need to space those hit-boxes. The entire farther hit-box is the sweetspot, but if you even are just an inch too close in, it'll flub. Learning to hit with these is a way different gameplan than with Brawl/SSB4's, where the sweet-spot has 100% hit-box priority, but are just tiny and very far in.

 

[Fernosaur]

I'd rather have the Melee frame data.