Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[BJN39]

You know what Nairo needed moar of? SH AD BAir baby!

Tbh though, mixing in just SH AD can be pretty neat, as you can either have a lag less landing, or you can even double jump just before hitting the ground and AD again, or NAir, or even just DJ.

Also, after seeing that Nairo/ESAM vid, 2 things:

• FW elevator is definitely the meta. We MUST get good with getting our FW elevators to hit.
• If Nairo hadn't SD'ed (I actually groaned when it happened. ; w ; ) then he might've won battle 2.

 

[Mocha]

Guys, this is our chance to win tourneys now with Zelda when everyone's thinking she's good right now, and before they learn our tricks. SIGN UP TO EVERY TOURNEY NEAR YOUR AREA AND WIN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

My playstyle for Zelda is honestly really similar to that of Nairo, although I play a lot less smart because lol I'm not that good huehue. Running to shield is something I do a lot, but I end up doing that TOO much. People then read me like a book and grab me or wait for the spot dodge and run past me to pivot grab me. ; w ;

Regarding signing up for early tournaments, you might be more right than you know lol. Seeing people easily punish Zelda this soon from the game having been released makes me dread what it'll be like once everyone's had more experience fighting her/used to their own character. It'll make it that much more difficult for us. The worst part is many will give up on Zelda, and so we'll always be a step behind everyone in the development of her meta.

I've found that people will grab you anyway, even when they're not trying to read you. Ever fought against that player who loves to roll behind and grab? I'm sure we all have. And then you predict, ready for the punish... but you're not quick enough.

You know what Nairo needed moar of? SH AD BAir baby!
Tbh though, mixing in just SH AD can be pretty neat, as you can either have a lag less landing, or you can even double jump just before hitting the ground and AD again, or NAir, or even just DJ.
Also, after seeing that Nairo/ESAM vid, 2 things:
• FW elevator is definitely the meta. We MUST get good with getting our FW elevators to hit.
• If Nairo hadn't SD'ed (I actually groaned when it happened. ; w ; ) then he might've won battle 2.

Yeah, I don't think a lot of Zeldas even know about 'frame traps' from an air dodge yet, but it should definitely be noted, even if air dodges feel unsafe. Like, our options are already unsafe as it is, so better to know what we could make out of them, then to avoid them entirely. Nairo seemed hesitant to use aerials in general, though I can't blame him.

Did you notice the salt shaker over his head while he played? Despite it being amusing, I found it unnecessary <.< if I ever play in front of a stream, they'd better use a gif of hot coffee spilling out of a mug instead. Hot coffee of rage.

 

[SBphiloz4]

I honestly have no idea what to do when a) I'm launched in the air and b) when I'm hanging on the ledge. ; u ;

Zelda has incredibly unsafe options in those situations. She pretty much needs to be on the ground to really exceed, but that's a given. But I think we all gotta really learn how to land on the stage and get on there safely, because those are crucial areas where the opponent can easily take the momentum away from you.

 

[BJN39]

^ I find when falling away from the chasing juggler, occasionally mixing in a B-reversed Nayru when close to the ground so that you go toward them if/when they're closing the gap on you can occasionally catch them nicely. It was really an old PM Nayru strat that you can do here, but is only safe if you catch your opponent.

If I explained that in a...readable manner. xP

 

[Mocha]

I honestly have no idea what to do when a) I'm launched in the air and b) when I'm hanging on the ledge. ; u ;

Zelda has incredibly unsafe options in those situations. She pretty much needs to be on the ground to really exceed, but that's a given. But I think we all gotta really learn how to land on the stage and get on there safely, because those are crucial areas where the opponent can easily take the momentum away from you.

Oh man, I'm having these issues myself. I swear I've tried like a bazillion different ways to get up from the edge, doing as little get up attack as possible (cause you KNOW they're sitting there waiting for a shield grab). I'd go as far as to say that it feels more unsafe to get up from the edge than being off-stage. And then you can't really make use of the invincibility frames anymore if you want some time to interpret the situation before making a move. No, you need to be quick to act.

What we can do, however, is figure out how our opponent is choosing to punish us. If they're always sitting at the edge with their shield, then well... we don't get up attack. Course, it's not always as simple as it sounds, especially if your opponent is edgeguarding you in different ways, and from there it's a guessing game.

There are also some underrated get up options, such as simply getting up. From there you can do anything from shielding to rolling away, to down tilting if you think they're gonna move in. Dash attack, grab, jab, etc... there's plenty to choose from. Smashes don't... really feel safe to attempt though.

As for being juggled as Zelda, yeah, I feel like I have a huge target sign on my character's body whenever she's launched in the air. I hate air dodging in this game with a passion. I usually try to DI away when being launched and try to land without a laggy aerial as much as possible. But then there's always that 'good' player who will read your DI and punish your landing anyway.

Lack of platforms due to the omega stages can also make landing a pain, since we're all the more predictable with it, and we're limited to nothing but the linear ground.

 

[SBphiloz4]

I find that when Zelda's off-stage, it's actually really easy for her to grab onto the ledge without being edgeguarded just because FW is just a good recovery move now. But really, your opponent doesn't need to desperately edgeguard you because you're already in checkmate situation the moment you grab the ledge. When I was facing Big D, it was literally impossible to get back on-stage from the ledge without being punished. He'd shield grab me when I just get-up or do a get-up attack, and if he sees a roll, he reads it because Zelda's roll is so slow and whoop, I'm thrown off stage again. -w-

We also lost the ability to you know, let go of the ledge, then double jump into Nair, because one, there's ending lag at the end, and two, it doesn't juggle as well as in Brawl. And of course, Brawl's air dodge was extremely abuseable, especially when Zelda's was just that good. I wonder if we can use Nayru's Love's invincibility, even the slightest of frames, to our advantage when we get back on stage from the ledge.

 

[Nairo]

@ Mocha I think aggressive zelda is better than defensive for sure at least vs most characters. I'm not sure what to say about zelda/pika that was my first time playing the MU and it was esams pika at that so I expected it to be as hard as it was. FW does well vs him though it seems. @ SBphiloz4 nayrus love can be used well getting back on stage but not every single time (unless the opponent can't hold shield longer after getting hit by one) but if no other options are working I'd just try to time nayrus love so they get hit if they try to grab.

 

[ZombieBran]

Wait a minute, Zelda's air dodge was nerfed from Brawl too?

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Also if I use Farore's wind oos and they shield I don't hold down. I go left or right so it won't be easy to punish.
Din's blaze and flare change her meta and so do the phantoms. Din's Blaze seems like the best atm and the phantoms all look good. She's definitely not bottom tier. Possibly low, but I see mid. Even if she's bottom, I will always main her and continue to improve

 

[SBphiloz4]

Wait a minute, Zelda's air dodge was nerfed from Brawl too?

All characters' air dodges are 22 frames in this game, and of course, using it near the ground has severe ending lag. I don't know the exact frame data for Brawl Zelda's air dodge, but it was extremely abusable and lasted a VERY LONG time for an air dodge. PLUS, no ending lag when you use it near the ground.

And I think in this game, aggressive Zelda is better than defensive Zelda mainly because this system favours an offensive mindset unless you are an EXTREMELY campy character like Olimar. Since Zelda's defensive options (ie pretty much her Smash Attacks) are a bit worse than that of Brawl, I agree with Nairo that we have to play a bit more aggressive than usual. Then play alongside good momentum and reads.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Even in the 3ds version, nairo played a offensive zelda. She has pretty good follow ups and combos now. Ledge mechanics just make it so much better for her to recover.

All I want for Christmas is..




Zelda's Smashes to connect reliably

 

[ZombieBran]

Zelda does have combo potential and good follow ups. When I say good, I mean compared to previous Zeldas anyway.

It's just so hard for her to get in though. I know that's a sentence thrown around for a lot of characters but it definitely applies to Zelda. And the risk is so great because she has so much end lag on...everything.

 

[SBphiloz4]

It's kinda funny. It doesn't seem like Zelda has changed much, but I think that she's almost a completely different character now. Compared to her Melee and especially her Brawl variant, her game this time is ALL ABOUT risks. Every time she's in the air, she has to commit 100% to pull off a timed aerial. Her smashes have to be used extremely well, or else it will get punished severely. Approach options? Yeah, we talked about just how risky that is. And of course, Farore's Wind is THE riskiest move ever to be the best move in a moveset.

Back in the Brawl days, yes she wasn't good, but her gameplan was relatively simple, and playing a defensively minded strategy didn't pose TOO much risks. Now, everything about her is risk. We probably have to build this character as THE riskiest variant to date, and go from there if we want to be successful.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

At least the fair and bair sweetspots R bigger

 

[SBphiloz4]

^Still a HUGE risk considering that you kinda flop and go all damsel in distress if you use it near the ground. -w-;;

 

[Hyrule Candy]

After they fall out of Ssmash in for glory they flinch for a moment since they didn't expect it

 

[Mocha]

@ Mocha I think aggressive zelda is better than defensive for sure at least vs most characters. I'm not sure what to say about zelda/pika that was my first time playing the MU and it was esams pika at that so I expected it to be as hard as it was. FW does well vs him though it seems. @ SBphiloz4 nayrus love can be used well getting back on stage but not every single time (unless the opponent can't hold shield longer after getting hit by one) but if no other options are working I'd just try to time nayrus love so they get hit if they try to grab.

And I think in this game, aggressive Zelda is better than defensive Zelda mainly because this system favours an offensive mindset unless you are an EXTREMELY campy character like Olimar. Since Zelda's defensive options (ie pretty much her Smash Attacks) are a bit worse than that of Brawl, I agree with Nairo that we have to play a bit more aggressive than usual. Then play alongside good momentum and reads.

Gawd I envy you people that never used Zelda much in Brawl. Do you have any idea how hard it is to transition from Zelda's Brawl playstyle (or rather, my Zelda Brawl playstyle) to Smash 4? I almost wish I could erase my memory of how I used to play, cause it'd be so much easier for me to get used to this new way of playing her. I wouldn't feel so afraid of being aggro with her if she wasn't so risky.

As for the Pika thing Nairo, don't sweat it. You did fine, especially considering it was Esam and... him reminding us that Pikachu exists in this game.

 

[ZombieBran]

I have to ask. How do we get up the ledge against a Marth?
He out ranges Nayru's (and Nair for that matter) and we die instantly if he gets a tipper there.

Pikachu is crazy in this game.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Gawd I envy you people that never used Zelda much in Brawl. Do you have any idea how hard it is to transition from Zelda's Brawl playstyle (or rather, my Zelda Brawl playstyle) to Smash 4? I almost wish I could erase my memory of how I used to play, cause it'd be so much easier for me to get used to this new way of playing her. I wouldn't feel so afraid of being aggro with her if she wasn't so risky.

Didn't play Brawl competitively. Just played with friends that sucked mostly, haha. My Zelda was super aggressive back in the Brawl days. Got away with it because everyone I played was so bad, haha. XD

My playstyle blended better in the end than some of you, so I guess I was more fortunate.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I always play offensive in brawl like I would just go in with a Usmash lol

 

[Fuoujin 2]

^ I find when falling away from the chasing juggler, occasionally mixing in a B-reversed Nayru when close to the ground so that you go toward them if/when they're closing the gap on you can occasionally catch them nicely. It was really an old PM Nayru strat that you can do here, but is only safe if you catch your opponent.

If I explained that in a...readable manner. xP

Now waiT...

Didn't I always get dragged for doing this in Brawl?

Dammit Fujin didn't I tell you to stop landing with Nayru's all the time? >:[

http://youtu.be/EqM55qrq1hU?t=2m6s
http://youtu.be/L-T5uLZQCHU?t=6m43s
http://youtu.be/QAMMY_A-v0w?t=1m58s

I guess Smash 4 Zelda is being advised to do things that weren't even safe in Brawl is just showing how far she's fallen.
R.I.P Brawl Zelda.

 

[Phenomiracle]

I have to ask. How do we get up the ledge against a Marth?
He out ranges Nayru's (and Nair for that matter) and we die instantly if he gets a tipper there.

Mix it up with either roll ons or jump + FW to center stage.

Didn't play Brawl competitively. Just played with friends that sucked mostly, haha. My Zelda was super aggressive back in the Brawl days. Got away with it because everyone I played was so bad, haha. XD

My playstyle blended better in the end than some of you, so I guess I was more fortunate.

Yeah, sums up my Brawl experience. I've only been to one tourney back in my Brawl days, and placed 5th out of 40-something people. Against my friends, I played an extremely aggressive Zelda.

Project M helped me out a bit, actually. My naturally aggressive playstyle transitioned well there, until I met solid players who forced me to play counter-offensively. Perhaps it wasn't just a matter of switching playstyles, I simply got better reading and punishing with Zelda. That experience translated quite well for me in Smash 4.

I'm terribly missing Usmash and Nair's autocancel. That's one sorespot from Brawl that refuses to go away.

 

[SBphiloz4]

So Fuujin has been landing with Nayru's since Brawl. Noted.

There's definitely lotsa stuff we all probably miss from Brawl. But this is a completely different Zelda, for the better for some places, and for the worst in others. We'll just have to use these tools we have for now, unless Mewtwo comes with a balance patch in March lol.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Now waiT...

Didn't I always get dragged for doing this in Brawl?



I guess Smash 4 Zelda is being advised to do things that weren't even safe in Brawl is just showing how far she's fallen.
R.I.P Brawl Zelda.

Yeah honestly I think the change is for the best. Brawl zelda will be missed... Kinda... No not really. Bye Bye bottom tier

 

[evmaxy54]

Off topic but T-Swizzle gifs are amazeballs

...

Carry on.

 

[Fuoujin 2]

So Fuujin has been landing with Nayru's since Brawl. Noted.

There's definitely lotsa stuff we all probably miss from Brawl. But this is a completely different Zelda, for the better for some places, and for the worst in others. We'll just have to use these tools we have for now, unless Mewtwo comes with a balance patch in March lol.

But it wasn't really safe back then and I don't think it's safe now.
You can get away with it of course, because people haven't adapted yet.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Wow this is the first game where zeldas playstyle has been greatly changed. Who knows, this change might make her so much better

 

[Phenomiracle]

Wow this is the first game where zeldas playstyle has been greatly changed. Who knows, this change might make her so much better

She's still a punish character. Which means she's only going to get worse as time goes on and people make less and less mistakes.

All bottom-tier characters seem to hold off decently initially before they settle themselves nicely at the bottom. Not everyone knows how to handle WFTs, for example. WFT mains can enjoy surprising people for time being until people learn the matchup.

 

[ZombieBran]

It's not safe. If they aren't hit by Nayru's, you're gonna get hit hard by any character. Probably sent back to where you just came from so you can try to land again.

It's not terribly safe from the ledge either as the whole maneuver takes a lot of time and Nayru's range isn't the best so you'll just be outspaced by swordsmen.

 

[Fuoujin 2]

It's not safe. If they aren't hit by Nayru's, you're gonna get hit hard by any character. Probably sent back to where you just came from so you can try to land again.

It's not terribly safe from the ledge either as the whole maneuver takes a lot of time and Nayru's range isn't the best so you'll just be outspaced by swordsmen.

So same as Brawl Nayru's just a little less laggy I guess.

Wow this is the first game where zeldas playstyle has been greatly changed. Who knows, this change might make her so much better

Ehh not really.

She still has no approach and no way to force an approach.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I think she's better.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think she's wetter.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Ooo rhymes

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ooo crimes

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I hate mimes

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I hate limes

 

[ZombieBran]

I think she's wetter.

her dress is so silky sheen this must be true

 

[KuroganeHammer]

THAT WAS ACTUALLY MY REASONING OMQ

 

[evmaxy54]

Off topic (not like that is much of a problem atm lol),
but,
does Zelda gain anything from the whole Perfect Pivot shenanigans or should we leave that for the ninjas & little boxer people? :/

 

[Hyrule Candy]

We should be poets @ KuroganeHammer omg

Anyways guys what do u think. Is she buffed or nerfed? Like what tier do you guys predict she'll be in