Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Lorde]

I just go into training and **** around with random characters (usually Bayonetta, but I like to try to find out things with other characters).

I've recently been labbing with Roy. His overall range and sweetspot/sourspot locations are unfortunate, but his great mobility makes him feel satisfying to play. Falling nair 1>other stuff shenanigans are also fun to play around with. Honestly, he's probably my favorite swordsman to play.

The only time I actually play matches are to test out 0-deaths with Bayonetta (which I've done like twice lol), and when I play with my pals from here.

 

[LonkQ]

Roy is truly the best. The only reason I have to play other characters is to handicap myself.

 

[EODM07]

I just go into training and **** around with random characters (usually Bayonetta, but I like to try to find out things with other characters).

I've recently been labbing with Roy. His overall range and sweetspot/sourspot locations are unfortunate, but his great mobility makes him feel satisfying to play. Falling nair 1>other stuff shenanigans are also fun to play around with. Honestly, he's probably my favorite swordsman to play.

The only time I actually play matches are to test out 0-deaths with Bayonetta (which I've done like twice lol), and when I play with my pals from here.

Roy is truly the best. The only reason I have to play other characters is to handicap myself.

I may actually consider using Roy again because of PK21 liking my Roy. I still know some stuff of what to do with him, plus his NAir can combo into itself a few times as well. I think maybe about three times max, and then follow up with something like Up B or FAir.

 

[Lavani]

I've been toying with Roy in training lately too

He has some cool things, I like jab>bair and sour uair>[kill move] (though the latter seems really risky/impractical in a real match, the range is garbo)

I can't play him seriously though. sword range + garbage tippers annoy me, feels like a rock in the air, recovery irks me a lot, flare blade hitbox is always smaller than I expect it to be (though is a cool move otherwise, I'd like it a lot with a minor hitbox buff), etc

feels like a worse lucina tbh. they play differently but that's still the vibe I get.

 

[LonkQ]

I feel the opposite. I hate playing Marth and Lucina because they have garbage short hops. They take forever to get to the apex of their jump, and forever to get back to the ground. It's the most frustrating thing about their design. But I can't imagine playing floaty characters so maybe I'm just weird. As a side note, tipper Uair isn't as hard to land as it sounds. The front hitbox is small, but the back hitbox has a lot more reach.

 

[BJN39]

tl;dr Dthrow to UAir is true. Since 1.0.0.

Spoiler

If you are FRAME. PERFECT.

Thanks to KuroganeHammer for the calculator.

Experimental table time!

WEIGHT = Target weight. Non-specifics mostly. DK (122) works for 120, Jiggs (68) works for 70.

0% KB = No rage, target has 4% (Because of Dthrow multihits, so consider it as being used when the target was at 0%) KB numbers.*

0% ADV = Hit advantage off of Dthrow aat 0%.* at 0%, everyone takes 37F of hitstun. Dthrow has 18F of endlag. (37 - 18 = 19F) When you consider that all airdodges (bar Bayonetta) have 1F of vulnerable startup, this advantage is effectively 20F. Zelda needs a minimum 20F to land UAir after Dthrow.

As the damage raises, opponents receive slightly more hitstun. (Tiny amounts) It makes the window a maximum of 3-4F larger before people are too far (for no DI/bad DI) to hit.

* KH's calc currently does not consider gravity in the calculations. Despite this, most numbers should still be relatively accurate. I'll find some way to consider low vs high gravity w/ each weight if it makes a relevant difference.

MIN% = For Dthrow used at this percent, (no DI no Rage) the target receives one more frame of hitstun, which makes Dthrow > UAir 100% true (even vs Bayonetta)

MAX% = A data-based percent where no DI no Rage Dthrow > UAir will no longer work. For data from gameplay, these percents would raise a little, (~5% at most) but these are safe percents. Note: The KB number I used as a cap off for working %s is 108

0% RAGE CAP = When ZELDA has this much damage, people will fly too far from Dthrow for UAir to follow up at 0%. ...lol

I also want to calculate some of these things considering rage.

Also good DI basically neuters this true combo vs anyone that isn't Bowser/DK.

WEIGHT|0%:0% KB|0%:0% ADV|MIN%|MAX%|0% RAGE CAP
130|95.7035|19F|14%|96%|134%
120|95.74|19F|13%|92%|134%
115|95.7595|19F|13%|90%|133%
110|95.78|19F|12%|88%|133%
105|95.8015|19F|12%|86%|133%
100|95.824|19F|11%|84%|133%
95|95.8477|19F|11%|81%|133%
90|95.8726|19F|11%|79%|132%
85|95.8989|19F|10%|77%|132%
80|95.9267|19F|10%|75%|132%
75|95.956|19F|9%|73%|132%
70|95.9871|19F|9%|71%|131%
65|96.02|19F|8%|69%|131%

 

[TTTTTsd]

Roy has Nair1 into any tilt at kill %s lol.

F6, sets up a kill. Nair being -7 on block at good spacing is also cool too.

 

[Alacion]

Uncharted 4 arrived. So excited for this.

 

[EODM07]

I feel the opposite. I hate playing Marth and Lucina because they have garbage short hops. They take forever to get to the apex of their jump, and forever to get back to the ground. It's the most frustrating thing about their design. But I can't imagine playing floaty characters so maybe I'm just weird. As a side note, tipper Uair isn't as hard to land as it sounds. The front hitbox is small, but the back hitbox has a lot more reach.

I'm actually very comfortable with Lucina's short hop. You can do a Short Hop Air Dodge and get a variety of options out before you hit the ground, and even then you'll have no end lag from the air dodge, since their short hop is high enough for them to get the complete air dodge animation out, which makes a great approach option too.

Roy's SH while it is limited to what he can do compared to Marth/Lucina's. I still make good use out of it, I usually go for either a rushdown NAir or falling UAir into UTilt strings.

 

[LonkQ]

SH airdodge isn't bad, but that's just one thing. Their slow short hop makes air to ground attacks more obvious. It makes their tomahawks much worse. It feels like such a huge commitment compared to Roy's SH which takes less time to finish.

 

[Lavani]

tl;dr Dthrow to UAir is true. Since 1.0.0.

Spoiler

If you are FRAME. PERFECT.

Thanks to KuroganeHammer for the calculator.

Experimental table time!

WEIGHT = Target weight. Non-specifics mostly. DK (122) works for 120, Jiggs (68) works for 70.

0% KB = No rage, target has 4% (Because of Dthrow multihits, so consider it as being used when the target was at 0%) KB numbers.*

0% ADV = Hit advantage off of Dthrow aat 0%.* at 0%, everyone takes 37F of hitstun. Dthrow has 18F of endlag. (37 - 18 = 19F) When you consider that all airdodges (bar Bayonetta) have 1F of vulnerable startup, this advantage is effectively 20F. Zelda needs a minimum 20F to land UAir after Dthrow.

As the damage raises, opponents receive slightly more hitstun. (Tiny amounts) It makes the window a maximum of 3-4F larger before people are too far (for no DI/bad DI) to hit.

* KH's calc currently does not consider gravity in the calculations. Despite this, most numbers should still be relatively accurate. I'll find some way to consider low vs high gravity w/ each weight if it makes a relevant difference.

MIN% = For Dthrow used at this percent, (no DI no Rage) the target receives one more frame of hitstun, which makes Dthrow > UAir 100% true (even vs Bayonetta)

MAX% = A data-based percent where no DI no Rage Dthrow > UAir will no longer work. For data from gameplay, these percents would raise a little, (~5% at most) but these are safe percents. Note: The KB number I used as a cap off for working %s is 108

I also want to calculate some of these things considering rage.

Also good DI basically neuters this true combo vs anyone that isn't Bowser/DK.

WEIGHT|0% KB|0% ADV|MIN%|MAX%
130|95.7035|19F|14%|96%
120|95.74|19F|13%|92%
115|95.7595|19F|13%|90%
110|95.78|19F|12%|88%
105|95.8015|19F|12%|86%
100|95.824|19F|11%|84%
95|95.8477|19F|11%|81%
90|95.8726|19F|11%|79%
85|95.8989|19F|10%|77%
80|95.9267|19F|10%|75%
75|95.956|19F|9%|73%
70|95.9871|19F|9%|71%
65|96.02|19F|8%|69%

Was dthrow buffed at some point? I'm messing around in 1.0.0 and seeing 23~24f endlag on it, which...

24f endlag
6f jumpsquat
14f uair
___________________
44f

...is over the 40f airdodge threshold in all scenarios.

 

[BJN39]

Was dthrow buffed at some point? I'm messing around in 1.0.0 and seeing 23~24f endlag on it, which...

24f endlag
6f jumpsquat
14f uair
___________________
44f

...is over the 40f airdodge threshold in all scenarios.

Dthrow never got touched...that we knew of.

Tbh though we didn't have the mining skills that we have now.

Still though 23-24F of endlag sounds...noticeable.

 

[Lavani]

Looks like 19f in 1.1.5

it definitely got buffed at some point and we never noticed LOL

 

[BJN39]

Looks like 19f in 1.1.5

it definitely got buffed at some point and we never noticed LOL

Is the mastercore off then? Because it shows a FAF of 70 in 1.0.0 too, which is the same as 1.1.5's. I meant 1.1.1, which is mastercore's last set.

Maybe checking 1.1.1 VS 1.1.2/3/4 would be better?

Still though that's weird

I want GIFs of this difference pls

 

[Buddhahobo]

I'm sorry I couldn't do the sounds of her... erm, more provocative sounds without bursting out laughing ;-;

It's a known problem in the industry for female voice actresses, how to toe the fine line between "obviously faking sounds of pain" and "starring in a softcore porno"

Exposing the fraudulence of this game just like how the media does to the GOP race.

Media's been getting ratings beyond belief from the GOP race this year; just look at CNN's record numbers in viewership due to the debates. Watch them try to turn every race after this one into this, on both sides. They feed it's fraudulence in order for it to grow and rake in the controversy, like a poster calling Zelda mid-tier.

In other news today, you know what's better than what Uncharted or Overwatch can ever be?

NEW PERSONA 5 TRAILER HIT AND IT'S BE-A-UTIFUL!

Spoiler

Also, new best girl appears to be an escaped Inkling.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Rickster]

Could it have been that weird Dthrow change that happened a while ago? Iirc some code or whatever was changed and we never figured out what it was.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Looks like 19f in 1.1.5

it definitely got buffed at some point and we never noticed LOL

Omf

I can't.gif

 

[BJN39]

Omf

I can't.gif

But really 1.0.0 Zelda was the most dysfunctional character ever made. We're 15 patches later and we've still got a lot of work to do...

 

[Lavani]

eww n3ds streaming doesn't work with homebrew

guess i'll have to take a billion screenshots and make a gif for 1.0.0 brb in an hour

 

[BJN39]

Time for a 1.0.0 Zelda recap

Jab didn't connect properly, whiffed all the time, and did 6% MAXIMUM

Ftilt....honestly hasn't gotten all the help it needs. It hit Frame 12.

Utilt didn't even work properly as a combo move, and did less damage

Dtilt did 4.5%...LOL

Fsmash didn't connect properly

Usmash basically didn't have loop hitboxes and didn't KO until 140-150%. It also didn't even connect properly.

Dsmash had MORE endlag

NAir had 22F of landing lag, did 11% MAXIMUM, (or 7%) and had microscopic loop hitboxes. Literally a joke.

FAir/BAir never received any changes........................................................LOL

DAir/UAir had more landing lag, UAir had a smaller hitbox, and lower damage, with the not-Brawl weaker KO power.

Grabs had worse range

Dthrow allegedly wasn't even a combo throw.......................LOL

Phantom whiffed like, 4 different ways. Only the two most obnoxious ones were addressed. It also had like, 8F more endlag before.

The only. ONLY thing 1.0.0 Zelda had was a pivot grab with longer range than Marth's FAir. AND WE LOST THAT.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You forgot the frame 10 grab

I think zelda is the most poorly designed and coded character in fighting game history

 

[BJN39]

You forgot the frame 10 grab

I think zelda is the most poorly designed and coded character in fighting game history

I didn't mention it because ha grab is still frame 10

It also has as much endlag as Lucas's grab.

Zelda is literally a coding mistake

 

[LonkQ]

Why is it even frame 10? It doesn't even have massive range or reward like Bowser's.

 

[BJN39]

Why is it even frame 10? It doesn't even have massive range or reward like Bowser's.

Zelda is literally a coding mistake

But think of it this way: it was frame 12 before SSB4.

Of course for this MASSIVE BUFF to her standing grab, (dash grab actually wasn't buffed lol) Sakurai deemed it necessary to add 8 frames more endlag to this OVERPOWERED grab.

Back when he did this Dthrow wasn't even a f***ing combo throw.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I think zelda is the most poorly designed and coded character in fighting game history

You know not the depravity of unbalanced fighting game history, then.

I still don't know what they were thinking with Piccolo in JUS given how much material they had to work with for a personal example.

On the other side of the tier list, we've got Omega Tom Hanks, Lord Zed, and pretty much every SNK boss.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Can we just remember that nair loop hitboxes had damage reversed so if you combod it out of dthrow you did 15% max

You know not the depravity of unbalanced fighting game history, then.

I still don't know what they were thinking with Piccolo in JUS given how much material they had to work with for a personal example.

On the other side of the tier list, we've got Omega Tom Hanks, Lord Zed, and pretty much every SNK boss.

SNK games don't count

 

[BJN39]

Can we just remember that nair loop hitboxes had damage reversed so if you combod it out of dthrow you did 15% max

It was 13% if you did Dthrow to NAir post 1.0.8, pre 1.1.5.

Though by then NAir actually had hitboxes.




Tbh there was more thought put into Melee PICHU's design than there was in Melee Zelda's, and in turn Brawl/SSB4 Zelda.

Did we grind it into everyone's minds enough how badly she was NERFED from Brawl?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This still applies to smash 4

 

[McKnightlíght]

It was 13% if you did Dthrow to NAir post 1.0.8, pre 1.1.5.

Though by then NAir actually had hitboxes.




Tbh there was more thought put into Melee PICHU's design than there was in Melee Zelda's, and in turn Brawl/SSB4 Zelda.

Did we grind it into everyone's minds enough how badly she was NERFED from Brawl?

I think the biggest nerf was this.

Spoiler

 

[Rickster]

We need to buy Zelda a can of Shade Spray.

She must defend haself in times like this

 

[Lavani]

It's a sad day when the ruler of a kingdom can't afford to buy her own can of shade spray.

Thanks Sakurai.

is Hyrule Venezuela?

 

[Buddhahobo]

SNK games don't count

Depends on how well KoFXIV does.

is Hyrule Venezuela?

Depends on the timeline.

They could just as easily be Puerto Rico or Greece.

 

[Y2Kay]

Looks like 19f in 1.1.5

it definitely got buffed at some point and we never noticed LOL

^why we need patch notes, kids

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lavani thoughts on this?

Thinking about it now, I theorise/don't think hurtboxes have anything to do with losing a stock when touching the Blastzone.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 6, 2016

There was a @BeefySmashDoods vid about hurtboxes and blastzones. The evidence was based on stage builder lava walls.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 6, 2016

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Lavani]

i'm having some obnoxious tech issues trying to get these clips to play side-by-side for no discernible reason

hopefully this is good enough, both clips start 6 frames before MK's launched and play at 30fps, displayed frames are the first frames shield is visible

Lavani thoughts on this?

Thinking about it now, I theorise/don't think hurtboxes have anything to do with losing a stock when touching the Blastzone.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 6, 2016

There was a @BeefySmashDoods vid about hurtboxes and blastzones. The evidence was based on stage builder lava walls.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 6, 2016

But often hurtboxes clip through the lava walls. So I think it's collision boxes rather than hurtboxes that affect blastzones/lava walls.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 6, 2016

Tough to say, but possibly. It makes a lot of sense that lava walls would be collision based since they're, well, walls. Blastzones aren't, but they aren't hitboxes either (...I think), so it could go either way?

Seems plausible at least. I haven't really researched blast zone detection at all.

Edit: After brief testing on a walkoff stage, I'm actually nearly positive blast zone detection is hurtbox.
Edit2: More testing, 100% positive it's hurtbox.

 

[atticusfinch7]

You forgot the frame 10 grab

I think zelda is the most poorly designed and coded character in fighting game history

FRAME 10???? Isn't Lucas' tether grab faster than that?

 

[Lord Renning]

I teamed with a level 9 CPU today and we destroyed things. CPU teammates are underrated, girlsss

A level 9 CPU is frame perfect and read your controller inputs. Frame Perfect Zeldas with precognition are scary.

 

[Alacion]

Woah there was a patch while I was playing Uncharted?

Goddamn though Nathan is so hot. And I seriously GREW UP on the easter egg in Chapter 3.

Spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0-WuBF9g5c

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Woah there was a patch while I was playing Uncharted? Crash

Goddamn though Nathan is so hot. And I seriously GREW UP on the easter egg in Chapter 3.

Spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0-WuBF9g5c

Uncharted 2 is bae

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i'm having some obnoxious tech issues trying to get these clips to play side-by-side for no discernible reason

hopefully this is good enough, both clips start 6 frames before MK's launched and play at 30fps, displayed frames are the first frames shield is visible

Tough to say, but possibly. It makes a lot of sense that lava walls would be collision based since they're, well, walls. Blastzones aren't, but they aren't hitboxes either (...I think), so it could go either way?

Seems plausible at least. I haven't really researched blast zone detection at all.

Edit: After brief testing on a walkoff stage, I'm actually nearly positive blast zone detection is hurtbox.
Edit2: More testing, 100% positive it's hurtbox.

Disappointing D: